Stuck accelerator kills 4 in Santee *Recall - Page 2*
11-27-2009, 10:05 PM
#161
Evil Mazda Driver
I love how you somehow just know that the real problem is the ECU and that Toyota must just be lying about everything. Yeah, they are going to spend millions and millions of dollars re-engineering throttle pedals, redesigning footwells, replacing some 4 million floormats, etc even though they know the real problem is with the ECU which could be upgraded via a software patch for a fraction of the cost of this recall. That makes so much sense.
I'm not sure how it is that you have this "inside" info on what is "really" wrong with these cars (even though countless actual investigations by NHTSA have never found any ECU issues) but just because you live in Japan doesn't make you an expert on Toyota liability....
I'm not sure how it is that you have this "inside" info on what is "really" wrong with these cars (even though countless actual investigations by NHTSA have never found any ECU issues) but just because you live in Japan doesn't make you an expert on Toyota liability....
One woman's IS250 took off on her when she toggled the cruise control lever to 'cancel', the thing took off like a bat out of hell. She looked at the instrument cluster and the 'BRAKE' warning light was flashing frantically. Her emergency brake was not engaged. She was able to get the car stopped and had it towed to the dealer where the car proceeded to do the same thing to the technician assigned to it. She recorded their phone calls and he said it was 'the scariest thing that's ever happened to him' and that 'something is definitely not right'. If that had been caused by a floor mat being jammed against the accelerator, the car would not have waited until the cruise was kicked off. Anybody who has driven a car with cruise control knows that the car will still accelerate via the pedal but will return to its set speed as soon as you let off, provided you didn't cancel it beforehand.
Another instance involved an ES350 that gradually accelerated from 65 to around 110 mph. As soon as the car began to do this, the driver noticed the 'CRUISE' light had come on and no pressing of the cruise control lever made any difference. She even shifted into neutral and the car continued on its way, completely uninhibited.
Just because the Santee crash may have been caused by the floor mats doesn't mean all of them are. I'm still not buying the accelerator pedal excuse and you can believe what you want to believe.
Last edited by PortlandRL; 11-27-2009 at 10:08 PM.
11-27-2009, 11:34 PM
#162
Senior Moderator
I love how you somehow just know that the real problem is the ECU and that Toyota must just be lying about everything. Yeah, they are going to spend millions and millions of dollars re-engineering throttle pedals, redesigning footwells, replacing some 4 million floormats, etc even though they know the real problem is with the ECU which could be upgraded via a software patch for a fraction of the cost of this recall. That makes so much sense.
I'm not sure how it is that you have this "inside" info on what is "really" wrong with these cars (even though countless actual investigations by NHTSA have never found any ECU issues) but just because you live in Japan doesn't make you an expert on Toyota liability....
I'm not sure how it is that you have this "inside" info on what is "really" wrong with these cars (even though countless actual investigations by NHTSA have never found any ECU issues) but just because you live in Japan doesn't make you an expert on Toyota liability....
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1971-1...rd-pinto12.htm
Last edited by West6MT; 11-27-2009 at 11:36 PM.
11-27-2009, 11:39 PM
#163
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
Thanks PortlandRL. I never claimed to be an expert. I am just looking at what the media has presented, and the stories of people who went through this.
Let's keep this civil without resorting to fanboy antics, shall we? I am ticked off at a company and someone who loves Toyota comes to the rescue. Man, maybe I should change forums (yeah, right).
Let's keep this civil without resorting to fanboy antics, shall we? I am ticked off at a company and someone who loves Toyota comes to the rescue. Man, maybe I should change forums (yeah, right).
11-28-2009, 12:19 AM
#164
Senior Moderator
Show me where he claimed to be an expert on Toyota's liability simply because he lives in Japan. If you had read some of the accounts from people who have had this happen to them, many of them checked the floor mats and it was no where near the accelerator. Additionally, the behavior reported in some of the incidents does not match behavior linked to an accelerator jammed at WOT by a misplaced or incorrect floor mat.
One woman's IS250 took off on her when she toggled the cruise control lever to 'cancel', the thing took off like a bat out of hell. She looked at the instrument cluster and the 'BRAKE' warning light was flashing frantically. Her emergency brake was not engaged. She was able to get the car stopped and had it towed to the dealer where the car proceeded to do the same thing to the technician assigned to it. She recorded their phone calls and he said it was 'the scariest thing that's ever happened to him' and that 'something is definitely not right'. If that had been caused by a floor mat being jammed against the accelerator, the car would not have waited until the cruise was kicked off. Anybody who has driven a car with cruise control knows that the car will still accelerate via the pedal but will return to its set speed as soon as you let off, provided you didn't cancel it beforehand.
Another instance involved an ES350 that gradually accelerated from 65 to around 110 mph. As soon as the car began to do this, the driver noticed the 'CRUISE' light had come on and no pressing of the cruise control lever made any difference. She even shifted into neutral and the car continued on its way, completely uninhibited.
Just because the Santee crash may have been caused by the floor mats doesn't mean all of them are. I'm still not buying the accelerator pedal excuse and you can believe what you want to believe.
One woman's IS250 took off on her when she toggled the cruise control lever to 'cancel', the thing took off like a bat out of hell. She looked at the instrument cluster and the 'BRAKE' warning light was flashing frantically. Her emergency brake was not engaged. She was able to get the car stopped and had it towed to the dealer where the car proceeded to do the same thing to the technician assigned to it. She recorded their phone calls and he said it was 'the scariest thing that's ever happened to him' and that 'something is definitely not right'. If that had been caused by a floor mat being jammed against the accelerator, the car would not have waited until the cruise was kicked off. Anybody who has driven a car with cruise control knows that the car will still accelerate via the pedal but will return to its set speed as soon as you let off, provided you didn't cancel it beforehand.
Another instance involved an ES350 that gradually accelerated from 65 to around 110 mph. As soon as the car began to do this, the driver noticed the 'CRUISE' light had come on and no pressing of the cruise control lever made any difference. She even shifted into neutral and the car continued on its way, completely uninhibited.
Just because the Santee crash may have been caused by the floor mats doesn't mean all of them are. I'm still not buying the accelerator pedal excuse and you can believe what you want to believe.
100%
Those who are advocating that the floor-mats are to blame are completely disreguarding the real issue.
First off, to those that are saying that the ECU isn't behind this problem for numerous reasons:
1. Shift the car into Neutral, Park Or Reverse:
-Have you ever watched mythbusters? On one episode they put a Car in reverse and in tried to put it in park. The results, there is a saftey over-ride solenoid that will not allow the car to be put in Park or Reverse so an accident will not happen, and as well to avoid damage to the transmission. What do you think controls this mechanism? The ECU, ELECTRICAL CONTROL UNIT. It detects the car is moving and thus engages the safety switches.
If the ECU can over-ride Park and Reverse, that means that there is NO physical connection between the gear selector and the transmission, it's ALL electrical. IF the ECU malfunctioned, it's perfectly plausible that the car wouldn't go into neutral for the same reason it won't go into park or reverse.
2. Why didn't the brakes work:
- Naysayers say it's operator error for not pressing the brake or for having poorly maintained brakes (Toyota). When the engine is at WOT, the brake booster line cannot function properly. Another member did the math in another thread and came to the conclusion that it would take nearly 200 lbs of force to engage the brakes at WOT. Could an old woman in that video put down 200LBs of force through her feet to engage the brakes? Could the CHP officer do it, I doubt it.
3. The Floor Mat itself:
-Haven't you ever had a stuck screw, stuck hinge, stuck electrical plug? If not, then I doubt you are human. Moving along, if something is stuck it's human nature to start wiggling it. If your accelerator was stuck wide open, and lets say it was the pedal, wouldn't you stomp on it hoping to relieve or remove the object obstructing it? Also if the accelerator was stuck down, don't you think the CHP officers training would have lead to some obvious deductions such as maybe looking down for a split second to see what was obstructing it?
The biggest problem with this coverage on the issue is the use of "Stuck Accelerator." Are we talking about the pedal being Physically stuck (Floor mat causing it) or are we talking about something electrical (the pedal can freely move, but the car's system is still at WOT)
Toyota deems it's physical, but how can that explain the blinking cruise light, the failure of the car to shift into any other gear? The only common denominator is the electrical system, all controlled by the Electrical Control Unit aka ECU/ECM.
Toyota, I applaud you for pouring salt into the wounds of others with your awesome zip ties. I applaud you for keeping a straight face when telling blatant lies to the families of those who died. I applaud you for lying to the Federal Government in order to save some money. Bravo! With so much applaud, are we going to get an encore?
11-28-2009, 12:23 AM
#165
Evil Mazda Driver
^ 
Typical, soulless corporate bullshit. And for those of you wondering what the Pinto thing was about. Basically Ford decided it was cheaper to pay the inevitable lawsuits for death and injury than it was to actually FIX the problem. When the first lawsuit hit, the cost was 52 times the amount they expected, even after appeal. I can see this happening to Toyota very soon.
Typical, soulless corporate bullshit. And for those of you wondering what the Pinto thing was about. Basically Ford decided it was cheaper to pay the inevitable lawsuits for death and injury than it was to actually FIX the problem. When the first lawsuit hit, the cost was 52 times the amount they expected, even after appeal. I can see this happening to Toyota very soon.
Last edited by PortlandRL; 11-28-2009 at 12:27 AM.
11-28-2009, 01:20 AM
#166
6 Forward 1 Back
Thread Starter
I did a memorial thank you card for the Lastrella's (their mom) a couple weeks back. They wanted to send it out for all the sympathy cards, donations, nice thoughts that were sent their way during this difficult time. As you can imagine it's all still raw and they are trying to get by day by day. I actually couldn't help but tear up after meeting with them because you can still feel their pain. I hope they give it to Toyota and make them pay for this unnecessary tragedy. At the very least make it so it can't ever happen again.
11-28-2009, 05:14 AM
#167
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
^
Typical, soulless corporate bullshit. And for those of you wondering what the Pinto thing was about. Basically Ford decided it was cheaper to pay the inevitable lawsuits for death and injury than it was to actually FIX the problem. When the first lawsuit hit, the cost was 52 times the amount they expected, even after appeal. I can see this happening to Toyota very soon.
Typical, soulless corporate bullshit. And for those of you wondering what the Pinto thing was about. Basically Ford decided it was cheaper to pay the inevitable lawsuits for death and injury than it was to actually FIX the problem. When the first lawsuit hit, the cost was 52 times the amount they expected, even after appeal. I can see this happening to Toyota very soon.
All companies would rather pay out a few lawsuits than admit the real problem, until they can somehow figure it out and not tell the public. It wouldn't matter if it were Honda, Subaru, GM, BMW, or any other car company. I think they are covering up, and I hope they get corn holed for it.
11-28-2009, 05:41 AM
#168
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
He could have heated them up enough to make them useless. I used to work at an obs. @ 14k feet. During the time I worked there, a jeep with tourist had gone up to visit and upon heading down from the mountain they used their brakes instead of engine braking; by 9k feet their brakes were shot and they drove right off the road at one of the turns. Three died and one survived. With the engine working against the brakes, especially at high speeds... I'm sure they could have overheated the rotors or boiled the BF.
11-28-2009, 09:18 AM
#169
Punk Rocker
Show me where he claimed to be an expert on Toyota's liability simply because he lives in Japan. If you had read some of the accounts from people who have had this happen to them, many of them checked the floor mats and it was no where near the accelerator. Additionally, the behavior reported in some of the incidents does not match behavior linked to an accelerator jammed at WOT by a misplaced or incorrect floor mat.
One woman's IS250 took off on her when she toggled the cruise control lever to 'cancel', the thing took off like a bat out of hell. She looked at the instrument cluster and the 'BRAKE' warning light was flashing frantically. Her emergency brake was not engaged. She was able to get the car stopped and had it towed to the dealer where the car proceeded to do the same thing to the technician assigned to it. She recorded their phone calls and he said it was 'the scariest thing that's ever happened to him' and that 'something is definitely not right'. If that had been caused by a floor mat being jammed against the accelerator, the car would not have waited until the cruise was kicked off. Anybody who has driven a car with cruise control knows that the car will still accelerate via the pedal but will return to its set speed as soon as you let off, provided you didn't cancel it beforehand.
Another instance involved an ES350 that gradually accelerated from 65 to around 110 mph. As soon as the car began to do this, the driver noticed the 'CRUISE' light had come on and no pressing of the cruise control lever made any difference. She even shifted into neutral and the car continued on its way, completely uninhibited.
Just because the Santee crash may have been caused by the floor mats doesn't mean all of them are. I'm still not buying the accelerator pedal excuse and you can believe what you want to believe.
One woman's IS250 took off on her when she toggled the cruise control lever to 'cancel', the thing took off like a bat out of hell. She looked at the instrument cluster and the 'BRAKE' warning light was flashing frantically. Her emergency brake was not engaged. She was able to get the car stopped and had it towed to the dealer where the car proceeded to do the same thing to the technician assigned to it. She recorded their phone calls and he said it was 'the scariest thing that's ever happened to him' and that 'something is definitely not right'. If that had been caused by a floor mat being jammed against the accelerator, the car would not have waited until the cruise was kicked off. Anybody who has driven a car with cruise control knows that the car will still accelerate via the pedal but will return to its set speed as soon as you let off, provided you didn't cancel it beforehand.
Another instance involved an ES350 that gradually accelerated from 65 to around 110 mph. As soon as the car began to do this, the driver noticed the 'CRUISE' light had come on and no pressing of the cruise control lever made any difference. She even shifted into neutral and the car continued on its way, completely uninhibited.
Just because the Santee crash may have been caused by the floor mats doesn't mean all of them are. I'm still not buying the accelerator pedal excuse and you can believe what you want to believe.
The accident that has caused all of this over-the-top outrage at Toyota was the Santee crash. That crash's cause has been identified and is being corrected. All of this mania is being driven by emotion and not fact. I am no Toyota fanboy, I just don't blindly go around believing every conspiracy theory I ever hear....
11-28-2009, 09:31 AM
#170
Punk Rocker
100%
Those who are advocating that the floor-mats are to blame are completely disreguarding the real issue.
First off, to those that are saying that the ECU isn't behind this problem for numerous reasons:
1. Shift the car into Neutral, Park Or Reverse:
-Have you ever watched mythbusters? On one episode they put a Car in reverse and in tried to put it in park. The results, there is a saftey over-ride solenoid that will not allow the car to be put in Park or Reverse so an accident will not happen, and as well to avoid damage to the transmission. What do you think controls this mechanism? The ECU, ELECTRICAL CONTROL UNIT. It detects the car is moving and thus engages the safety switches.
If the ECU can over-ride Park and Reverse, that means that there is NO physical connection between the gear selector and the transmission, it's ALL electrical. IF the ECU malfunctioned, it's perfectly plausible that the car wouldn't go into neutral for the same reason it won't go into park or reverse.
2. Why didn't the brakes work:
- Naysayers say it's operator error for not pressing the brake or for having poorly maintained brakes (Toyota). When the engine is at WOT, the brake booster line cannot function properly. Another member did the math in another thread and came to the conclusion that it would take nearly 200 lbs of force to engage the brakes at WOT. Could an old woman in that video put down 200LBs of force through her feet to engage the brakes? Could the CHP officer do it, I doubt it.
3. The Floor Mat itself:
-Haven't you ever had a stuck screw, stuck hinge, stuck electrical plug? If not, then I doubt you are human. Moving along, if something is stuck it's human nature to start wiggling it. If your accelerator was stuck wide open, and lets say it was the pedal, wouldn't you stomp on it hoping to relieve or remove the object obstructing it? Also if the accelerator was stuck down, don't you think the CHP officers training would have lead to some obvious deductions such as maybe looking down for a split second to see what was obstructing it?
The biggest problem with this coverage on the issue is the use of "Stuck Accelerator." Are we talking about the pedal being Physically stuck (Floor mat causing it) or are we talking about something electrical (the pedal can freely move, but the car's system is still at WOT)
Toyota deems it's physical, but how can that explain the blinking cruise light, the failure of the car to shift into any other gear? The only common denominator is the electrical system, all controlled by the Electrical Control Unit aka ECU/ECM.
Toyota, I applaud you for pouring salt into the wounds of others with your awesome zip ties. I applaud you for keeping a straight face when telling blatant lies to the families of those who died. I applaud you for lying to the Federal Government in order to save some money. Bravo! With so much applaud, are we going to get an encore?
Those who are advocating that the floor-mats are to blame are completely disreguarding the real issue.
First off, to those that are saying that the ECU isn't behind this problem for numerous reasons:
1. Shift the car into Neutral, Park Or Reverse:
-Have you ever watched mythbusters? On one episode they put a Car in reverse and in tried to put it in park. The results, there is a saftey over-ride solenoid that will not allow the car to be put in Park or Reverse so an accident will not happen, and as well to avoid damage to the transmission. What do you think controls this mechanism? The ECU, ELECTRICAL CONTROL UNIT. It detects the car is moving and thus engages the safety switches.
If the ECU can over-ride Park and Reverse, that means that there is NO physical connection between the gear selector and the transmission, it's ALL electrical. IF the ECU malfunctioned, it's perfectly plausible that the car wouldn't go into neutral for the same reason it won't go into park or reverse.
2. Why didn't the brakes work:
- Naysayers say it's operator error for not pressing the brake or for having poorly maintained brakes (Toyota). When the engine is at WOT, the brake booster line cannot function properly. Another member did the math in another thread and came to the conclusion that it would take nearly 200 lbs of force to engage the brakes at WOT. Could an old woman in that video put down 200LBs of force through her feet to engage the brakes? Could the CHP officer do it, I doubt it.
3. The Floor Mat itself:
-Haven't you ever had a stuck screw, stuck hinge, stuck electrical plug? If not, then I doubt you are human. Moving along, if something is stuck it's human nature to start wiggling it. If your accelerator was stuck wide open, and lets say it was the pedal, wouldn't you stomp on it hoping to relieve or remove the object obstructing it? Also if the accelerator was stuck down, don't you think the CHP officers training would have lead to some obvious deductions such as maybe looking down for a split second to see what was obstructing it?
The biggest problem with this coverage on the issue is the use of "Stuck Accelerator." Are we talking about the pedal being Physically stuck (Floor mat causing it) or are we talking about something electrical (the pedal can freely move, but the car's system is still at WOT)
Toyota deems it's physical, but how can that explain the blinking cruise light, the failure of the car to shift into any other gear? The only common denominator is the electrical system, all controlled by the Electrical Control Unit aka ECU/ECM.
Toyota, I applaud you for pouring salt into the wounds of others with your awesome zip ties. I applaud you for keeping a straight face when telling blatant lies to the families of those who died. I applaud you for lying to the Federal Government in order to save some money. Bravo! With so much applaud, are we going to get an encore?
2)I have no experience with trying to brake a car at WOT so I cannot make any intelligent guess as to its possiblity. What I DO know is that the Santee crash was caused by an improper floormat being stuck against the gas pedal. This is not in dispute. It is a tragedy that the CHP officer was unable to slow the car but the culprit for the accident was not Toyota, but the dealership for installing the wrong floormats in their loaner vehicle.
3) Again, the cause of the CHP officer's accident is NOT in dispute. All investigations of the accident that I have read say that an improper all-season floormat for the RX was installed in the loaner ES350 and that they were the direct cause for the stuck accelerator. Whatever the officer did to try and save the vehicle at that point is simply a matter of conjecture. You nor I was actually there.
The question of whether or not there is some phantom ECU gremlin responsible for all of these other "reports" is dubious at best. NHTSA has done several investigations of the ECU in several Toyota vehicles since 2000 and has NEVER found fault with an ECU even once. Maybe some people are just stupid. Or maybe they just don't know how to drive (interesting that most of the complaints come from women and the elderly). I don't know. All I do know is that NOBODY has ever been able to PROVE that there is some electrical problem with these cars and considering that it has NEVER happened to me, I tend to discount the majority of these claims....
11-28-2009, 09:40 AM
#171
Punk Rocker
Thanks PortlandRL. I never claimed to be an expert. I am just looking at what the media has presented, and the stories of people who went through this.
Let's keep this civil without resorting to fanboy antics, shall we? I am ticked off at a company and someone who loves Toyota comes to the rescue. Man, maybe I should change forums (yeah, right).
Let's keep this civil without resorting to fanboy antics, shall we? I am ticked off at a company and someone who loves Toyota comes to the rescue. Man, maybe I should change forums (yeah, right).
Those are the facts that I have read in this story. Any fanboyism being displayed here is really anti-Toyotaism IMO....
11-28-2009, 12:34 PM
#172
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Are you an electrical engineer majin? Do you have any experience with control systems or embedded programming utilizing dozens of sensor inputs? No you're a biased ignorant MF. Have you read about the Ford cruise control recall? They have issued a 15M recall on vehicles from 92-03 and have told the drivers to not drive until they can find a solution or in the least deactivate their cruise control unit. Do you know why? because of faulty electrical components. Hmm.... I wonder who makes the same components for Lexus? You ever have a computer die on you for one reason or another?
A recent report showed that 20% of modern laptops fail within 3 years. I'm an electrical engineer and my background includes component design, control, DSP and RF. My current work is component verification for a computer mfg. The ODM work done on many builds have vast issues. From the battery to the board. This occurs when component mfg's try to undercut each other to win a contract. Do you know how they build a $300 laptop? By cutting processing steps, minimizing on materials & doing the minimum in reliability testing.
We're all car guys here. I don't give a shit what type of car it is. The one thing that were not is blind idiots. We know what's up.. why don't you? I've shoved my floormat on my gas pedal of my RX300. I even did it on my TL which is attached to the floor (no gap), it's complete BS. You keep citing edmunds well where's the source? Better yet, just stick to hanging out at CL and stop polluting this thread.
A recent report showed that 20% of modern laptops fail within 3 years. I'm an electrical engineer and my background includes component design, control, DSP and RF. My current work is component verification for a computer mfg. The ODM work done on many builds have vast issues. From the battery to the board. This occurs when component mfg's try to undercut each other to win a contract. Do you know how they build a $300 laptop? By cutting processing steps, minimizing on materials & doing the minimum in reliability testing.
We're all car guys here. I don't give a shit what type of car it is. The one thing that were not is blind idiots. We know what's up.. why don't you? I've shoved my floormat on my gas pedal of my RX300. I even did it on my TL which is attached to the floor (no gap), it's complete BS. You keep citing edmunds well where's the source? Better yet, just stick to hanging out at CL and stop polluting this thread.
11-28-2009, 01:23 PM
#173
Banned
I still don't understand why he couldn't shut off the engine, put it on neutral or slam the brakes.
Unfortunately, the guy did panic and focused on 911. Wrong path of decision.
RIP
Unfortunately, the guy did panic and focused on 911. Wrong path of decision.
RIP
11-28-2009, 02:38 PM
#174
Evil Mazda Driver
This is a corporation we're talking about here, not a person. If you think they care about you as an entity, you're wrong. They don't care who you are or what happens to you. They don't give a fuck about you. YOU are not the bottom line, it doesn't matter who YOU are. So long as they keep 'everybody else' happy, they've got nothing to worry about. And that's what's got me so riled up about this whole thing. Toyota is pissing on the graves of beautiful, innocent people who died at the hands of their defective, under-engineered vehicles and while they're taking leak, they're giving the families the finger. What happened to Japanese honor?
If you think I'm angry because this is Toyota, you're wrong. If this had happened to ANY other car company and they had displayed the lack of drive and the ignorance, I would be equally as mad. But the thing that makes me angriest is people making excuses for them, like it's excusable, like it's okay. That just pisses me off. If ANY other car company had reacted in the way Toyota has dealt with this fiasco, they would be RUINED. The lack of accountability is sickening.
Last edited by PortlandRL; 11-28-2009 at 02:40 PM.
11-28-2009, 02:45 PM
#175
Punk Rocker
Are you an electrical engineer majin? Do you have any experience with control systems or embedded programming utilizing dozens of sensor inputs? No you're a biased ignorant MF. Have you read about the Ford cruise control recall? They have issued a 15M recall on vehicles from 92-03 and have told the drivers to not drive until they can find a solution or in the least deactivate their cruise control unit. Do you know why? because of faulty electrical components. Hmm.... I wonder who makes the same components for Lexus? You ever have a computer die on you for one reason or another?
A recent report showed that 20% of modern laptops fail within 3 years. I'm an electrical engineer and my background includes component design, control, DSP and RF. My current work is component verification for a computer mfg. The ODM work done on many builds have vast issues. From the battery to the board. This occurs when component mfg's try to undercut each other to win a contract. Do you know how they build a $300 laptop? By cutting processing steps, minimizing on materials & doing the minimum in reliability testing.
We're all car guys here. I don't give a shit what type of car it is. The one thing that were not is blind idiots. We know what's up.. why don't you? I've shoved my floormat on my gas pedal of my RX300. I even did it on my TL which is attached to the floor (no gap), it's complete BS. You keep citing edmunds well where's the source? Better yet, just stick to hanging out at CL and stop polluting this thread.
A recent report showed that 20% of modern laptops fail within 3 years. I'm an electrical engineer and my background includes component design, control, DSP and RF. My current work is component verification for a computer mfg. The ODM work done on many builds have vast issues. From the battery to the board. This occurs when component mfg's try to undercut each other to win a contract. Do you know how they build a $300 laptop? By cutting processing steps, minimizing on materials & doing the minimum in reliability testing.
We're all car guys here. I don't give a shit what type of car it is. The one thing that were not is blind idiots. We know what's up.. why don't you? I've shoved my floormat on my gas pedal of my RX300. I even did it on my TL which is attached to the floor (no gap), it's complete BS. You keep citing edmunds well where's the source? Better yet, just stick to hanging out at CL and stop polluting this thread.
By the way, here is your Edmunds source that you were too lazy to search for:
Toyota Will Shorten Gas Pedals to Ward Off Stuck Throttle
By Erin Riches | November 25, 2009
Indeed, there is more to the Toyota floor mat debacle than floor mats. Toyota announced today it will modify the gas pedal in 3.8 million vehicles. Modifications will typically involved shortening the pedal to move it farther away from the mat. However, in the Lexus ES 350, and Toyota Avalon and Camry, Toyota will also remove foam material from the floor to allow more clearance.
As those three models are deemed most susceptible to having the floor mat jam under the accelerator, owners will be notified by the end of 2009. Lexus IS and Toyota Prius, Tacoma and Tundra owners will get notices in early 2010. In addition, the ES 350, IS 250/350, Avalon and Camry will be fitted with a brake override feature that cuts power if simultaneous brake/throttle application is detected.
Toyota is also working on a new accelerator pedal design, and by April 2010, new pedals will be ready to install in vehicles covered by the recall. Owners who want one will likely need to ask for it specifically when they go to the dealer.
Our own testing team has examined various Toyotas and reports that this is a legitimate problem that should be taken seriously.
"Our tests confirmed that an out-of-position floor mat can, indeed, cause the throttle to stick because of the shape and geometry of the current gas pedal," Technical Director Dan Edmunds says. Edmunds was the engineering manager of the chassis and brake development group at Hyundai America Technical Center and senior chassis development engineer for Toyota's Technical Center before joining Edmunds.com in April 2006.
"Temporarily shortening and replacing the accelerator pedals are viable solutions to alleviate the problem," he added.
By Erin Riches | November 25, 2009
Indeed, there is more to the Toyota floor mat debacle than floor mats. Toyota announced today it will modify the gas pedal in 3.8 million vehicles. Modifications will typically involved shortening the pedal to move it farther away from the mat. However, in the Lexus ES 350, and Toyota Avalon and Camry, Toyota will also remove foam material from the floor to allow more clearance.
As those three models are deemed most susceptible to having the floor mat jam under the accelerator, owners will be notified by the end of 2009. Lexus IS and Toyota Prius, Tacoma and Tundra owners will get notices in early 2010. In addition, the ES 350, IS 250/350, Avalon and Camry will be fitted with a brake override feature that cuts power if simultaneous brake/throttle application is detected.
Toyota is also working on a new accelerator pedal design, and by April 2010, new pedals will be ready to install in vehicles covered by the recall. Owners who want one will likely need to ask for it specifically when they go to the dealer.
Our own testing team has examined various Toyotas and reports that this is a legitimate problem that should be taken seriously.
"Our tests confirmed that an out-of-position floor mat can, indeed, cause the throttle to stick because of the shape and geometry of the current gas pedal," Technical Director Dan Edmunds says. Edmunds was the engineering manager of the chassis and brake development group at Hyundai America Technical Center and senior chassis development engineer for Toyota's Technical Center before joining Edmunds.com in April 2006.
"Temporarily shortening and replacing the accelerator pedals are viable solutions to alleviate the problem," he added.
kthanxbye.
11-28-2009, 02:51 PM
#176
Punk Rocker
And you're displaying some real pro-Toyotaism. Keep it up...they're counting on people like you to keep drinking the Kool-Aid and pass it around to everybody else. My mom has had two Toyotas and a Lexus RX so if you think I'm jumping on the anti-Toyota bandwagon just for shits and giggles and because I have nothing else to do, you're wrong. I've seen how things have declined, fallen apart and been taken for granted. They aren't making the cars they were 15 years ago.
This is a corporation we're talking about here, not a person. If you think they care about you as an entity, you're wrong. They don't care who you are or what happens to you. They don't give a fuck about you. YOU are not the bottom line, it doesn't matter who YOU are. So long as they keep 'everybody else' happy, they've got nothing to worry about. And that's what's got me so riled up about this whole thing. Toyota is pissing on the graves of beautiful, innocent people who died at the hands of their defective, under-engineered vehicles and while they're taking leak, they're giving the families the finger. What happened to Japanese honor?
If you think I'm angry because this is Toyota, you're wrong. If this had happened to ANY other car company and they had displayed the lack of drive and the ignorance, I would be equally as mad. But the thing that makes me angriest is people making excuses for them, like it's excusable, like it's okay. That just pisses me off. If ANY other car company had reacted in the way Toyota has dealt with this fiasco, they would be RUINED. The lack of accountability is sickening.
This is a corporation we're talking about here, not a person. If you think they care about you as an entity, you're wrong. They don't care who you are or what happens to you. They don't give a fuck about you. YOU are not the bottom line, it doesn't matter who YOU are. So long as they keep 'everybody else' happy, they've got nothing to worry about. And that's what's got me so riled up about this whole thing. Toyota is pissing on the graves of beautiful, innocent people who died at the hands of their defective, under-engineered vehicles and while they're taking leak, they're giving the families the finger. What happened to Japanese honor?
If you think I'm angry because this is Toyota, you're wrong. If this had happened to ANY other car company and they had displayed the lack of drive and the ignorance, I would be equally as mad. But the thing that makes me angriest is people making excuses for them, like it's excusable, like it's okay. That just pisses me off. If ANY other car company had reacted in the way Toyota has dealt with this fiasco, they would be RUINED. The lack of accountability is sickening.
11-28-2009, 02:56 PM
#177
Evil Mazda Driver
Then maybe you should straighten your 'facts' around about the investigation. The ability to muddy the facts when going from Point A to Point B is striking.
Fact 1: In accordance with their procedure, the NHTSA did not investigate themselves, but rather, gathered information about the vehicles from the manufacturer.
Fact 2: The NHTSA never even touched a vehicle affected by the recall. Again, all the information was provided by Toyota.
In order to fit with your request to keep anything you might misconstrue as emotion and fanboyism, that's really about all I can say.
Fact 1: In accordance with their procedure, the NHTSA did not investigate themselves, but rather, gathered information about the vehicles from the manufacturer.
Fact 2: The NHTSA never even touched a vehicle affected by the recall. Again, all the information was provided by Toyota.
In order to fit with your request to keep anything you might misconstrue as emotion and fanboyism, that's really about all I can say.
11-28-2009, 03:09 PM
#178
Punk Rocker
Then maybe you should straighten your 'facts' around about the investigation. The ability to muddy the facts when going from Point A to Point B is striking.
Fact 1: In accordance with their procedure, the NHTSA did not investigate themselves, but rather, gathered information about the vehicles from the manufacturer.
Fact 2: The NHTSA never even touched a vehicle affected by the recall. Again, all the information was provided by Toyota.
In order to fit with your request to keep anything you might misconstrue as emotion and fanboyism, that's really about all I can say.
Fact 1: In accordance with their procedure, the NHTSA did not investigate themselves, but rather, gathered information about the vehicles from the manufacturer.
Fact 2: The NHTSA never even touched a vehicle affected by the recall. Again, all the information was provided by Toyota.
In order to fit with your request to keep anything you might misconstrue as emotion and fanboyism, that's really about all I can say.
Here are some actual NHTSA quotes to read (again, just facts):
“ODI reviewed the petition, assessed VOQs, interviewed persons who filed VOQs, tested the vehicle, and reviewed Toyota’s response to an agency Information Request. The complaints fell into three groups. A majority of the complaints may have involved the Tacoma’s throttle control system. Some complaints did not involve a failure of the throttle control system. For the remaining reports, although there may have been an issue with the throttle control system as one possible explanation, we have been unable to determine a cause related to throttle control or any underlying cause that gave rise to the complaint. For those vehicles where the throttle control system did not perform as the owner believes it should have, the information suggesting a possible defect related to motor vehicle safety is quite limited.
Additional investigation is unlikely to result in a finding that a defect related to motor vehicle safety exists or a NHTSA order for the notification and remedy of a safety-related defect as requested by the petitioner. Therefore, in view of the need to allocate and prioritize NHTSA’s limited resources to best accomplish the agency’s safety mission, the petition is denied.”
Additional investigation is unlikely to result in a finding that a defect related to motor vehicle safety exists or a NHTSA order for the notification and remedy of a safety-related defect as requested by the petitioner. Therefore, in view of the need to allocate and prioritize NHTSA’s limited resources to best accomplish the agency’s safety mission, the petition is denied.”
“To comprehend the statistical significance of the probability for this event to occur, a survey was sent to a sample size of 1986 registered owners of a 2007 Lexus ES-350 requesting information regarding episodes of unintended acceleration. NHTSA received 600 responses for an overall response rate of 30.2%. Fifty-nine owners stated they experienced unintended acceleration. Thirty-five of those responding also reported that their vehicles were equipped with rubber Lexus all-weather floor mats and several commented that the incident occurred when the accelerator had become trapped in a groove in the floor mat. Interviews with owners revealed that many had unsecured rubber floor mats in place at the time of the unintended acceleration event, which included in some cases unsecured rubber floor mats placed over existing Lexus carpeted mats.”
“ODI failed to find any evidence in the interviews conducted (113 VOQ and 36 Toyota reports, 149 total), or in the information provided in Toyota’s IR response, of instrument panel warning lamp illumination or ETC diagnostic codes detection. None of the complainants interviewed described conditions similar to failsafe mode operation. One report (10062931) was found where an ETC component replacement occurred in connection with a repair attempt related to the alleged defect, no others were found. Toyota’s warranty claim rate is low with 24 of the 43 warranty claims submitted involving diagnostic repairs (that did not result in component replacement because no fault was detected). Many warranty claims were not related to the alleged defect Toyota’s ETC parts sales rate for the subject vehicles is low also. There are no service bulletins or campaigns that relate to the alleged defect.”
11-28-2009, 03:40 PM
#179
Evil Mazda Driver
So (not trying to be snarky) what makes those witness accounts so much more reliable than those who experienced unintended acceleration not caused by a rubber mat?
11-28-2009, 04:38 PM
#181
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Have I heard of the Ford cruise control recall? Uh, yeah, I have an Expedition. And the recall was due to the module catching fire even if the car is parked and possibly burning your house down. It had nothing to do with the ECU or its components, it was a physically faulty electrical connection that was live even when off. I won't stoop to name-calling here but somebody does look ignorant and its not me.
By the way, here is your Edmunds source that you were too lazy to search for:
http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/page/2/
kthanxbye.
By the way, here is your Edmunds source that you were too lazy to search for:
http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/page/2/
kthanxbye.
Dan Edmunds.. former Sr. Chassis Dev Engr for Toyota. LOL! Tested after the fact. You don't have to be an engineer to test this out yourself. I'm good at math not sensibility so if I hurt your feelings my apologies.
As for the defective cruise control kill switch on the Ford, that's a design issue which Ford originally blamed TI for mfg a faulty switch. What makes you think the Toyota unintended acceleration isn't a design issue as well? Did you even read the NHTSA report refusing to investigate the issue? What do you think the PCM is? It's a multi layer board with hundreds of components sometimes composed of segmented chipsets with dozens of connections / connectors. hmm... could this fail as well if moisture were able to get on it? Nah... that'll never happen. You find it a bit ironic that Toyota is going to install what Ford is deactivating?
Here's a little reading for you involving the complaint filed..
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Pepski Claim to NHTSA from UAI on Feb 3, 09
Driving home from work, I experienced a sudden uncontrollable surge in acceleration causing my speed to increase from about 60 mph to 80+ mph.
Immediately I began to brake hard as I was rapidly approaching traffic just ahead of me. Fortunately the inside left lane was unoccupied and I was able to make an immediate lane change. Initially I depressed the brake pedal as hard as I could using both feet but only managed to slow the vehicle to 40-45 mph. With my speed reduced, I alternated between pumping the accelerator pedal and pulling up on it from the underside with my right foot as it became clear that the throttle was stuck in an open position. The vehicle continued to speed back up to over 65 mph with less pressure on the brake pedal.
With traffic just ahead of me, I moved over to the left shoulder next to the center barrier and continued to try to release the open throttle. There were clouds of smoke around the vehicle and the smell of burning materials from the overheating brakes. After finally getting the vehicle slowed down to about 25-30 mph, I shifted into “Neutral” and depressed the start/stop push button a number of times hoping to stop the engine but nothing happened. Instead the RPMs moved up into the redline range on the tachometer. I quickly shifted back into “Drive”; the vehicle jolted and rapidly accelerated to 60+ mph.
As the brakes were fading quickly, I was certain that I would need to shift back into “Neutral” and let the engine blow up to stop the vehicle. Suddenly the acceleration surge stopped and I was able to bring the vehicle to a stop about 1 ½ to 2 miles from where it had started. I quickly shifted into “Park” and depressed the start/stop push button to turn off the engine. The vehicle seemed to shutter as I did so. Upon restarting the car, I drove cautiously to Lexus of Wayzata a short distance away fully prepared to shift into “Neutral” if the acceleration repeated. The car remains there over 5 weeks later.
Immediately I began to brake hard as I was rapidly approaching traffic just ahead of me. Fortunately the inside left lane was unoccupied and I was able to make an immediate lane change. Initially I depressed the brake pedal as hard as I could using both feet but only managed to slow the vehicle to 40-45 mph. With my speed reduced, I alternated between pumping the accelerator pedal and pulling up on it from the underside with my right foot as it became clear that the throttle was stuck in an open position. The vehicle continued to speed back up to over 65 mph with less pressure on the brake pedal.
With traffic just ahead of me, I moved over to the left shoulder next to the center barrier and continued to try to release the open throttle. There were clouds of smoke around the vehicle and the smell of burning materials from the overheating brakes. After finally getting the vehicle slowed down to about 25-30 mph, I shifted into “Neutral” and depressed the start/stop push button a number of times hoping to stop the engine but nothing happened. Instead the RPMs moved up into the redline range on the tachometer. I quickly shifted back into “Drive”; the vehicle jolted and rapidly accelerated to 60+ mph.
As the brakes were fading quickly, I was certain that I would need to shift back into “Neutral” and let the engine blow up to stop the vehicle. Suddenly the acceleration surge stopped and I was able to bring the vehicle to a stop about 1 ½ to 2 miles from where it had started. I quickly shifted into “Park” and depressed the start/stop push button to turn off the engine. The vehicle seemed to shutter as I did so. Upon restarting the car, I drove cautiously to Lexus of Wayzata a short distance away fully prepared to shift into “Neutral” if the acceleration repeated. The car remains there over 5 weeks later.
Cliffs on NHTSA's finding:
- Oh.. you pumped the accelerator and even tried pulling up on it and it still accelerated = FLOORMAT
- Your claim about the brakes.. we admit that there's no way you'd ever be able to stop the vehicle under those circumstances, but don't worry... TOYOTA IS RECALLING THE FLOORMATS
- Your claim that there are dozens of similar incidents have occured.. this is true but we think it's the FLOORMATS, at least that's what TOYOTA TELLS US.
- How do we explain the sudden acceleration stop.. we don't know but maybe the floormat dislodged... yeah that's what happened
- how come you were able to reach your foot under the accelerator pedal to try and pull it up yet the floormat still pushed down on it to make it accelerate... we think you were confused.. are you sure you didn't try pulling up the brake pedal??.. yeah that's what you must have been doing..
- Ruling --- NHTSA INVESTIGATION DENIED.
NHTSA.. Toyota.. Stop being such a tool Majin. Seriously.. The NHTSA is out there to protect the market not the individual citizen. Seriously.. why do you think they denied an extensive investigation. Where's the harm.. think about that.
Last edited by Majofo; 11-28-2009 at 04:42 PM.
11-28-2009, 05:10 PM
#182
Punk Rocker
Dan Edmunds.. former Sr. Chassis Dev Engr for Toyota. LOL! Tested after the fact. You don't have to be an engineer to test this out yourself. I'm good at math not sensibility so if I hurt your feelings my apologies.
As for the defective cruise control kill switch on the Ford, that's a design issue which Ford originally blamed TI for mfg a faulty switch. What makes you think the Toyota unintended acceleration isn't a design issue as well? Did you even read the NHTSA report refusing to investigate the issue? What do you think the PCM is? It's a multi layer board with hundreds of components sometimes composed of segmented chipsets with dozens of connections / connectors. hmm... could this fail as well if moisture were able to get on it? Nah... that'll never happen. You find it a bit ironic that Toyota is going to install what Ford is deactivating?
Here's a little reading for you involving the complaint filed..
Cliffs on NHTSA's finding:
NHTSA.. Toyota.. Stop being such a tool Majin. Seriously.. The NHTSA is out there to protect the market not the individual citizen. Seriously.. why do you think they denied an extensive investigation. Where's the harm.. think about that.
As for the defective cruise control kill switch on the Ford, that's a design issue which Ford originally blamed TI for mfg a faulty switch. What makes you think the Toyota unintended acceleration isn't a design issue as well? Did you even read the NHTSA report refusing to investigate the issue? What do you think the PCM is? It's a multi layer board with hundreds of components sometimes composed of segmented chipsets with dozens of connections / connectors. hmm... could this fail as well if moisture were able to get on it? Nah... that'll never happen. You find it a bit ironic that Toyota is going to install what Ford is deactivating?
Here's a little reading for you involving the complaint filed..
Cliffs on NHTSA's finding:
- Oh.. you pumped the accelerator and even tried pulling up on it and it still accelerated = FLOORMAT
- Your claim about the brakes.. we admit that there's no way you'd ever be able to stop the vehicle under those circumstances, but don't worry... TOYOTA IS RECALLING THE FLOORMATS
- Your claim that there are dozens of similar incidents have occured.. this is true but we think it's the FLOORMATS, at least that's what TOYOTA TELLS US.
- How do we explain the sudden acceleration stop.. we don't know but maybe the floormat dislodged... yeah that's what happened
- how come you were able to reach your foot under the accelerator pedal to try and pull it up yet the floormat still pushed down on it to make it accelerate... we think you were confused.. are you sure you didn't try pulling up the brake pedal??.. yeah that's what you must have been doing..
- Ruling --- NHTSA INVESTIGATION DENIED.
NHTSA.. Toyota.. Stop being such a tool Majin. Seriously.. The NHTSA is out there to protect the market not the individual citizen. Seriously.. why do you think they denied an extensive investigation. Where's the harm.. think about that.All I can do is say that the facts that have been established thus far do not point to any other problems than the floormats. I have given you links to investigations as well as quotes but of course that just means the investigators are in on it too, right? I'm glad we have such a crack squad of investigators here on the AZine.
I bet Majofo and PortlandRL watch the JFK movie every night before bed...
11-28-2009, 05:23 PM
#183
Evil Mazda Driver
Actually, I don't buy into conspiracy theories, thank you very much. I believe we landed on the moon and that JFK was shot by a lone assasin who was in turn murdered by a man shattered and angered by the loss of his President. I take the information with which I have been presented and draw what I believe to be a logical conclusion. I'm not saying the mats aren't responsible. I am saying that there are other factors at play here and it's not as cut and dry as Toyota wants to make it seem.
The only information you see as being valid is the one about the floor mats because that is what masterful Toyota has told you. Who are we to doubt the largest car company in the world?
The only information you see as being valid is the one about the floor mats because that is what masterful Toyota has told you. Who are we to doubt the largest car company in the world?
11-28-2009, 05:31 PM
#184
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
Dan Edmunds.. former Sr. Chassis Dev Engr for Toyota. LOL! Tested after the fact. You don't have to be an engineer to test this out yourself. I'm good at math not sensibility so if I hurt your feelings my apologies.
As for the defective cruise control kill switch on the Ford, that's a design issue which Ford originally blamed TI for mfg a faulty switch. What makes you think the Toyota unintended acceleration isn't a design issue as well? Did you even read the NHTSA report refusing to investigate the issue? What do you think the PCM is? It's a multi layer board with hundreds of components sometimes composed of segmented chipsets with dozens of connections / connectors. hmm... could this fail as well if moisture were able to get on it? Nah... that'll never happen. You find it a bit ironic that Toyota is going to install what Ford is deactivating?
NHTSA.. Toyota.. Stop being such a tool Majin. Seriously.. The NHTSA is out there to protect the market not the individual citizen. Seriously.. why do you think they denied an extensive investigation. Where's the harm.. think about that.
As for the defective cruise control kill switch on the Ford, that's a design issue which Ford originally blamed TI for mfg a faulty switch. What makes you think the Toyota unintended acceleration isn't a design issue as well? Did you even read the NHTSA report refusing to investigate the issue? What do you think the PCM is? It's a multi layer board with hundreds of components sometimes composed of segmented chipsets with dozens of connections / connectors. hmm... could this fail as well if moisture were able to get on it? Nah... that'll never happen. You find it a bit ironic that Toyota is going to install what Ford is deactivating?
NHTSA.. Toyota.. Stop being such a tool Majin. Seriously.. The NHTSA is out there to protect the market not the individual citizen. Seriously.. why do you think they denied an extensive investigation. Where's the harm.. think about that.The problem I have, as an individual, is the company seems to be trying to do as little as possible, vice coming out to the public and saying that they are investigating the whole issue. Yes, the floor mats may have caused SOME of the accidents, and the shape of the accelerator may have caused SOME other accidents. But people who have the cars that have had this happen have stated (as above) that SOMETHING other than a bad floor mat or pedal caused his issue.
If Toyota came out and stated they were looking at all issues that may have effected these cars (given this problem), then I wouldn't be pissed. I mean, what they tell the public here is different than what the US gets (Those effected cars were sold here as well, same ECU but cruise control was not allowed here until very recently, maybe the past 3 years or so). So them telling the Japanese public that only exports are effected (because of the different floor mat design here) is
You can assemble a complex piece of electromechanical machinery, and have them exhibit 99.99% of expected behavior. Sometimes, there are a few bad ones. Point: Toyota has, on contract, a company that does their ECU's, and each one gets tested on a bench before being put in an automobile. But being that the assembly line produces millions of cars, not all final assembled products can be tested for all conditions. Therefore, the company will take a representative sample and test it thoroughly. The rest get sent on.
I see it it happen with satellites, why can't it happen with cars? sometimes, you get a bad one. And on a scale of hundreds of thousands, maybe more than a few.
11-28-2009, 06:12 PM
#185
11-28-2009, 06:16 PM
#186
Punk Rocker
11-28-2009, 06:24 PM
#187
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
I was going to add that I know a little bit about faulty code in detail, as someone who works with spacecraft (satellites) and flight code every day, but I don't need to. All I wanted to do was point out the corporate BS here, where Toyota is "assuring" it's customer base here that all the "effected" vehicles were exported (FACT, i sat here and heard it on the evening news).
The problem I have, as an individual, is the company seems to be trying to do as little as possible, vice coming out to the public and saying that they are investigating the whole issue. Yes, the floor mats may have caused SOME of the accidents, and the shape of the accelerator may have caused SOME other accidents. But people who have the cars that have had this happen have stated (as above) that SOMETHING other than a bad floor mat or pedal caused his issue.
If Toyota came out and stated they were looking at all issues that may have effected these cars (given this problem), then I wouldn't be pissed. I mean, what they tell the public here is different than what the US gets (Those effected cars were sold here as well, same ECU but cruise control was not allowed here until very recently, maybe the past 3 years or so). So them telling the Japanese public that only exports are effected (because of the different floor mat design here) is
You can assemble a complex piece of electromechanical machinery, and have them exhibit 99.99% of expected behavior. Sometimes, there are a few bad ones. Point: Toyota has, on contract, a company that does their ECU's, and each one gets tested on a bench before being put in an automobile. But being that the assembly line produces millions of cars, not all final assembled products can be tested for all conditions. Therefore, the company will take a representative sample and test it thoroughly. The rest get sent on.
I see it it happen with satellites, why can't it happen with cars? sometimes, you get a bad one. And on a scale of hundreds of thousands, maybe more than a few.
The problem I have, as an individual, is the company seems to be trying to do as little as possible, vice coming out to the public and saying that they are investigating the whole issue. Yes, the floor mats may have caused SOME of the accidents, and the shape of the accelerator may have caused SOME other accidents. But people who have the cars that have had this happen have stated (as above) that SOMETHING other than a bad floor mat or pedal caused his issue.
If Toyota came out and stated they were looking at all issues that may have effected these cars (given this problem), then I wouldn't be pissed. I mean, what they tell the public here is different than what the US gets (Those effected cars were sold here as well, same ECU but cruise control was not allowed here until very recently, maybe the past 3 years or so). So them telling the Japanese public that only exports are effected (because of the different floor mat design here) is
You can assemble a complex piece of electromechanical machinery, and have them exhibit 99.99% of expected behavior. Sometimes, there are a few bad ones. Point: Toyota has, on contract, a company that does their ECU's, and each one gets tested on a bench before being put in an automobile. But being that the assembly line produces millions of cars, not all final assembled products can be tested for all conditions. Therefore, the company will take a representative sample and test it thoroughly. The rest get sent on.
I see it it happen with satellites, why can't it happen with cars? sometimes, you get a bad one. And on a scale of hundreds of thousands, maybe more than a few.
11-28-2009, 06:53 PM
#188
Punk Rocker
I was going to add that I know a little bit about faulty code in detail, as someone who works with spacecraft (satellites) and flight code every day, but I don't need to. All I wanted to do was point out the corporate BS here, where Toyota is "assuring" it's customer base here that all the "effected" vehicles were exported (FACT, i sat here and heard it on the evening news).
The problem I have, as an individual, is the company seems to be trying to do as little as possible, vice coming out to the public and saying that they are investigating the whole issue. Yes, the floor mats may have caused SOME of the accidents, and the shape of the accelerator may have caused SOME other accidents. But people who have the cars that have had this happen have stated (as above) that SOMETHING other than a bad floor mat or pedal caused his issue.
If Toyota came out and stated they were looking at all issues that may have effected these cars (given this problem), then I wouldn't be pissed. I mean, what they tell the public here is different than what the US gets (Those effected cars were sold here as well, same ECU but cruise control was not allowed here until very recently, maybe the past 3 years or so). So them telling the Japanese public that only exports are effected (because of the different floor mat design here) is
You can assemble a complex piece of electromechanical machinery, and have them exhibit 99.99% of expected behavior. Sometimes, there are a few bad ones. Point: Toyota has, on contract, a company that does their ECU's, and each one gets tested on a bench before being put in an automobile. But being that the assembly line produces millions of cars, not all final assembled products can be tested for all conditions. Therefore, the company will take a representative sample and test it thoroughly. The rest get sent on.
I see it it happen with satellites, why can't it happen with cars? sometimes, you get a bad one. And on a scale of hundreds of thousands, maybe more than a few.
The problem I have, as an individual, is the company seems to be trying to do as little as possible, vice coming out to the public and saying that they are investigating the whole issue. Yes, the floor mats may have caused SOME of the accidents, and the shape of the accelerator may have caused SOME other accidents. But people who have the cars that have had this happen have stated (as above) that SOMETHING other than a bad floor mat or pedal caused his issue.
If Toyota came out and stated they were looking at all issues that may have effected these cars (given this problem), then I wouldn't be pissed. I mean, what they tell the public here is different than what the US gets (Those effected cars were sold here as well, same ECU but cruise control was not allowed here until very recently, maybe the past 3 years or so). So them telling the Japanese public that only exports are effected (because of the different floor mat design here) is
You can assemble a complex piece of electromechanical machinery, and have them exhibit 99.99% of expected behavior. Sometimes, there are a few bad ones. Point: Toyota has, on contract, a company that does their ECU's, and each one gets tested on a bench before being put in an automobile. But being that the assembly line produces millions of cars, not all final assembled products can be tested for all conditions. Therefore, the company will take a representative sample and test it thoroughly. The rest get sent on.
I see it it happen with satellites, why can't it happen with cars? sometimes, you get a bad one. And on a scale of hundreds of thousands, maybe more than a few.
You can come up with all kinds of theories, spout off about "I make computer chips for a living so blah, blah, blah" or "Toyota is obviously making this up because I tried to do the same thing with my car and blah, blah, blah", but at the end of the day no faulty ECU has ever been identified by any governing body. Until an actual investigation PROVES (and I know proving something is a hard concept for you guys with preconceived notions) that the ECU's indeed have some sort of design flaw causing these very rare instances of unintended acceleration, I will remain skeptical. If such inverstigation does occur, I (unlike you) will be willing to come on here and admit I was wrong.
We shall see....
11-28-2009, 06:57 PM
#189
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Wow, yet again not one single FACT in your diatribe, just conjecture and inuendo. Look I'm finished trying to convince you guys, its obvious you just want to believe that Toyota is out to kill all of its customers. Whatever.
All I can do is say that the facts that have been established thus far do not point to any other problems than the floormats. I have given you links to investigations as well as quotes but of course that just means the investigators are in on it too, right? I'm glad we have such a crack squad of investigators here on the AZine.
I bet Majofo and PortlandRL watch the JFK movie every night before bed...
All I can do is say that the facts that have been established thus far do not point to any other problems than the floormats. I have given you links to investigations as well as quotes but of course that just means the investigators are in on it too, right? I'm glad we have such a crack squad of investigators here on the AZine.
I bet Majofo and PortlandRL watch the JFK movie every night before bed...
There's no conspiracy theory here.. Sure there's a lot of emotion here because a beautiful family perished and the complaints of unintended sudden acceleration claims grow, and what's Toyota's response even before the tragic accident??.. must be the floormats. What's NHTSA's response??.. hmm.. well if you say so.
Where's the evidence & facts that you say? We want a thorough investigation and what has the public been given... some bs recall after another, first a zip tie now a shortened accelerator pedal. If it was your family, your mother, your brother, your daughter who died in that crash would you be satisfied with a visual inspection of the said party who mfgs the car saying it was a floormat that killed your family, or would you want a thorough investigation by a 3rd party?
Btw.. NHTSA told Mr. Pepski that the return springs in his accelerator pedal were fine and that's conclusive enough to show that it was operating properly. If you believe that then there's obviously no hope for your basic understanding of the issue.
11-28-2009, 07:02 PM
#190
Punk Rocker
You mean a burned up ES350 that went into a death roll had evidence of a floormat jamming up the accelerator pedal.. O'rly.. I take back my previous apology, you are an ignorant biased MF!
There's no conspiracy theory here.. Sure there's a lot of emotion here because a beautiful family perished and the complaints of unintended sudden acceleration claims grow, and what's Toyota's response even before the tragic accident??.. must be the floormats. What's NHTSA's response??.. hmm.. well if you say so.
Where's the evidence & facts that you say? We want a thorough investigation and what has the public been given... some bs recall after another, first a zip tie now a shortened accelerator pedal. If it was your family, your mother, your brother, your daughter who died in that crash would you be satisfied with a visual inspection of the said party who mfgs the car saying it was a floormat that killed your family, or would you want a thorough investigation by a 3rd party?
Btw.. NHTSA told Mr. Pepski that the return springs in his accelerator pedal were fine and that's conclusive enough to show that it was operating properly. If you believe that then there's obviously no hope for your basic understanding of the issue.
There's no conspiracy theory here.. Sure there's a lot of emotion here because a beautiful family perished and the complaints of unintended sudden acceleration claims grow, and what's Toyota's response even before the tragic accident??.. must be the floormats. What's NHTSA's response??.. hmm.. well if you say so.
Where's the evidence & facts that you say? We want a thorough investigation and what has the public been given... some bs recall after another, first a zip tie now a shortened accelerator pedal. If it was your family, your mother, your brother, your daughter who died in that crash would you be satisfied with a visual inspection of the said party who mfgs the car saying it was a floormat that killed your family, or would you want a thorough investigation by a 3rd party?
Btw.. NHTSA told Mr. Pepski that the return springs in his accelerator pedal were fine and that's conclusive enough to show that it was operating properly. If you believe that then there's obviously no hope for your basic understanding of the issue.
11-28-2009, 07:06 PM
#191
Evil Mazda Driver
Forget it, Majofo. Let him live in his perfect little fantasy world where all the big corporations lever lie and people who tell truths are automatically paranoid, lying conspiracy theorists.
Eric, you claim not to be pro-Toyota but you are the only person defending them in this whole thing and you drive an IS350. Coincidence? I think not. If your car ever takes off on its own and injures you or somebody you love, don't come crying to me.
I'm done with this thread. May the Lastrella family rest in peace.
Eric, you claim not to be pro-Toyota but you are the only person defending them in this whole thing and you drive an IS350. Coincidence? I think not. If your car ever takes off on its own and injures you or somebody you love, don't come crying to me.
I'm done with this thread. May the Lastrella family rest in peace.
11-28-2009, 07:08 PM
#192
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Hey Bob.. what do you think?.. hmm.. looks like a jammed floormat to me.
11-28-2009, 08:14 PM
#193
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Hey Bob.. what about this one? looks like the floormat strikes again.. but there's no floormat in it.. well it must have floated away.
11-28-2009, 08:31 PM
#194
Punk Rocker
Yeah great deductions there Majofo. Two accidents that can't possibly have been caused by floormats (though the first one WAS) but most definitely were the result of some phantom electrical gremlin that has never been recreated under investigation. Funny how you can deduce that just by looking at a couple of pictures. You must be really smart!!!
11-28-2009, 08:39 PM
#195
Senior Moderator
Yeah great deductions there Majofo. Two accidents that can't possibly have been caused by floormats (though the first one WAS) but most definitely were the result of some phantom electrical gremlin that has never been recreated under investigation. Funny how you can deduce that just by looking at a couple of pictures. You must be really smart!!!
11-28-2009, 08:43 PM
#196
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
11-28-2009, 08:48 PM
#197
Punk Rocker
Hey, since you are in such a pic mood Majofo, lets play the "What caused this Toyota to crash" game!!! Ok, you first. Was this caused by a floormat, a mystical ECU spasm, or an idiot driver???
EEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRR!! Sorry, not an ECU. Good guess though.
Next one, now think really hard buddy: Floormat, ECU, or idiot???
Times up! Oh noes, wrong again!! Ok well three times a charm!!! Come on buddy you can do it!! This time a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThPCiCm36X4
Hmm, that looked like it could be an ECU for sure but........NO, wrong again! Well I don't get it, I mean, people actually crash into things without the car having caused it?!?! Thats just amazing! Well thanks for playing Majofo but today I'm afraid you're just a loser!!
(btw, anybody wanna bet Nick Hogan wishes this whole "unintended acceleration" hype was going on when he had his crash?? I can just hear him now: "No the car just took off on me I swear!!!")
EEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRR!! Sorry, not an ECU. Good guess though.
Next one, now think really hard buddy: Floormat, ECU, or idiot???
Times up! Oh noes, wrong again!! Ok well three times a charm!!! Come on buddy you can do it!! This time a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThPCiCm36X4
Hmm, that looked like it could be an ECU for sure but........NO, wrong again! Well I don't get it, I mean, people actually crash into things without the car having caused it?!?! Thats just amazing! Well thanks for playing Majofo but today I'm afraid you're just a loser!!
(btw, anybody wanna bet Nick Hogan wishes this whole "unintended acceleration" hype was going on when he had his crash?? I can just hear him now: "No the car just took off on me I swear!!!")
11-28-2009, 08:57 PM
#198
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Hey expert.. tell me where in this mess is the floormat that jammed up the accelerator..
Your ignorant, every post of yours is marked by failure, I'm done with you.. your facts are just corporate propaganda. The only fact is that there hasn't been an exhaustive investigation even though these issues have been around for years.
Last edited by Majofo; 11-28-2009 at 09:00 PM.
11-28-2009, 09:01 PM
#199
Punk Rocker
Wait a minute!!! I just had a thought! What if Nick Hogan's crash really was caused by the magical-mystical-neverbeenduplicated-ecu fart?? Holy cripes guys this problem goes all the way back to the Supra!! Damn you Toyota with your child-killing ways! Obviously I'll be going out to the garage to burn my IS now (the only way you can kill it is with fire). Thanks guys I now see the error of my ways. That was a close one....
11-29-2009, 01:32 AM
#200
Senior Moderator
1) No electrical gremlin I know of has ever prevented any car I have ever driven from being shifted to neutral at speed. You can go try it for yourself right now if you wish. The car will shift into neutral every time. I own an actual recall car (IS350) and have never noticed any such "odd" behavior from my car.
I have no doubt my car will shift into neutral, however I am doubtful of a random toytota with Drive-By-wire as there is clear evidence that they would not shift into neutral. The same unit that control the accelerator controls the gear-shift, if it was to fail everything would cease working!
2)I have no experience with trying to brake a car at WOT so I cannot make any intelligent guess as to its possiblity. What I DO know is that the Santee crash was caused by an improper floormat being stuck against the gas pedal. This is not in dispute. It is a tragedy that the CHP officer was unable to slow the car but the culprit for the accident was not Toyota, but the dealership for installing the wrong floormats in their loaner vehicle.
How do you KNOW this, were you an investigator at the scene? Were you on the inside? The fact of the matter is only those who investigated this will know the truth, we are left to believe what the new agencies and police tell us.
3) Again, the cause of the CHP officer's accident is NOT in dispute. All investigations of the accident that I have read say that an improper all-season floormat for the RX was installed in the loaner ES350 and that they were the direct cause for the stuck accelerator. Whatever the officer did to try and save the vehicle at that point is simply a matter of conjecture. You nor I was actually there.
If the RX mat was indeed in the ES, then it is the dealer's fault for doing so. However there is no proof that there was an RX mat in the ES that is available to the public.
The question of whether or not there is some phantom ECU gremlin responsible for all of these other "reports" is dubious at best. NHTSA has done several investigations of the ECU in several Toyota vehicles since 2000 and has NEVER found fault with an ECU even once. Maybe some people are just stupid. Or maybe they just don't know how to drive (interesting that most of the complaints come from women and the elderly). I don't know. All I do know is that NOBODY has ever been able to PROVE that there is some electrical problem with these cars and considering that it has NEVER happened to me, I tend to discount the majority of these claims....
I have no doubt my car will shift into neutral, however I am doubtful of a random toytota with Drive-By-wire as there is clear evidence that they would not shift into neutral. The same unit that control the accelerator controls the gear-shift, if it was to fail everything would cease working!
2)I have no experience with trying to brake a car at WOT so I cannot make any intelligent guess as to its possiblity. What I DO know is that the Santee crash was caused by an improper floormat being stuck against the gas pedal. This is not in dispute. It is a tragedy that the CHP officer was unable to slow the car but the culprit for the accident was not Toyota, but the dealership for installing the wrong floormats in their loaner vehicle.
How do you KNOW this, were you an investigator at the scene? Were you on the inside? The fact of the matter is only those who investigated this will know the truth, we are left to believe what the new agencies and police tell us.
3) Again, the cause of the CHP officer's accident is NOT in dispute. All investigations of the accident that I have read say that an improper all-season floormat for the RX was installed in the loaner ES350 and that they were the direct cause for the stuck accelerator. Whatever the officer did to try and save the vehicle at that point is simply a matter of conjecture. You nor I was actually there.
If the RX mat was indeed in the ES, then it is the dealer's fault for doing so. However there is no proof that there was an RX mat in the ES that is available to the public.
The question of whether or not there is some phantom ECU gremlin responsible for all of these other "reports" is dubious at best. NHTSA has done several investigations of the ECU in several Toyota vehicles since 2000 and has NEVER found fault with an ECU even once. Maybe some people are just stupid. Or maybe they just don't know how to drive (interesting that most of the complaints come from women and the elderly). I don't know. All I do know is that NOBODY has ever been able to PROVE that there is some electrical problem with these cars and considering that it has NEVER happened to me, I tend to discount the majority of these claims....
As far as you discounting the majority of these claims, you could compare it to people running out of gas. People run out of gas every day in their cars, however you have probably never experienced it. To use logic as you did it simply flawed; just because an event has not occurred to you does not mean it has not occurred to others.
Yeah great deductions there Majofo. Two accidents that can't possibly have been caused by floormats (though the first one WAS) but most definitely were the result of some phantom electrical gremlin that has never been recreated under investigation. Funny how you can deduce that just by looking at a couple of pictures. You must be really smart!!!
We are not saying that it's definitely not driver error or its not the floor mat, we are trying to say that there is another factor, an electrical problem that is completely being overlooked. It's clear to see that the ECU controls the Accelerator, the Gear Shift and other vital components in the car. If the ECU to have some sort of glitch or error (just like the PC you are using freezing or stalling), it could be disastrous. In the case of Lexus/Toyota ECU's there is an apparent issue with something to do with the drivetrain. Wether you believe it or not, it doesn't matter to me, I'm just trying to get an objective view out there.
Being sarcastic or rude with other members isn't going to get anyone's point further along, keep it civil and there will be no problems, if you guys can't I'm sure Ron A has no problems giving people vacations.