Stuck accelerator kills 4 in Santee *Recall - Page 2*
02-13-2010, 07:46 AM
#481
AZ Community Team
Those quotes are press releases from CTS, showing there were problems with non-CTS DBW throttles. Again not showing any true mechanical/electronic analysis.
02-13-2010, 08:00 AM
#482
AZ Community Team
02-13-2010, 09:43 AM
#483
Senior Moderator
02-13-2010, 09:44 AM
#484
Senior Moderator
02-13-2010, 01:29 PM
#485
AZ Community Team
I wonder the same, if it was a systematic problem with the ECU i would assume there would be more cases. Would like to see how the Toyota throttle position sensor works (optical encoder, hall effect sensor,...?)
02-13-2010, 07:23 PM
#486
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
Earlier in the thread, the pedal assemblies are broken down and all parts shown. In it, the portion that sends a signal to the ECU is a simple armature and magnet, basically sensing a current difference in position. I don't see this as a cause for failure, if the pedal is indeed not "stuck" in a WOT position.
02-13-2010, 11:51 PM
#487
Evil Mazda Driver
It isn't a cause for failure as far as I'm concerned. The brain of Toyota's DBW is housed with a BUNCH of other ECUs and wiring harnesses bundled behind the glovebox...at least it is in the Camry. As far as I know, the DBW's box is not shielded in any way to protect from outside interference. You hit that sucker with the right frequency and it might do things you really don't want it doing.
02-14-2010, 05:38 AM
#488
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
It isn't a cause for failure as far as I'm concerned. The brain of Toyota's DBW is housed with a BUNCH of other ECUs and wiring harnesses bundled behind the glovebox...at least it is in the Camry. As far as I know, the DBW's box is not shielded in any way to protect from outside interference. You hit that sucker with the right frequency and it might do things you really don't want it doing.
02-14-2010, 11:13 AM
#489
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Yes but they put their products through halt / hass testing with the mtbf / fit rate data available to the general public. You actually think they'd make a public statement like that without having proof? CTS is a big company that supplies components to many companies. Toyota fucked saying their pedals stuck when if fact they don't which is why Toyota's statement was retracted. If you read into the details you can easily see that this recall is just another rouse by Toyota.
02-14-2010, 11:53 AM
#490
AZ Community Team
Again you're trying to make a fact of the pedals sticking when it fact that has yet to be proven conclusion or not in a public release of failure analysis results.
Also where is the public statement on their data? I cannot find it on their website anywhere.
http://www.ctscorp.com/publications/publicwhatsnew.htm
FWIW, HASS and HALT find some (in most cases a majority) things but not all time related failures.
Also where is the public statement on their data? I cannot find it on their website anywhere.
http://www.ctscorp.com/publications/publicwhatsnew.htm
FWIW, HASS and HALT find some (in most cases a majority) things but not all time related failures.
Yes but they put their products through halt / hass testing with the mtbf / fit rate data available to the general public. You actually think they'd make a public statement like that without having proof? CTS is a big company that supplies components to many companies. Toyota fucked saying their pedals stuck when if fact they don't which is why Toyota's statement was retracted. If you read into the details you can easily see that this recall is just another rouse by Toyota.
02-14-2010, 12:07 PM
#491
AZ Community Team
Earlier in the thread, the pedal assemblies are broken down and all parts shown. In it, the portion that sends a signal to the ECU is a simple armature and magnet, basically sensing a current difference in position. I don't see this as a cause for failure, if the pedal is indeed not "stuck" in a WOT position.
Thanks, here it is again
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/exc...ta-gas-pedals/
02-15-2010, 01:46 PM
#492
From the Car and Driver editorial -
"if you have a Toyota (or any car), and you don't know to shift to neutral if the engine races unexpectedly, you're going to succumb to what can only be described as natural selection."
What an unbelievably patronizing statement. Apparently Mr. Dushane is too isolated in his road-tester bubble to realize that there are millions of drivers out there that are fully taxed simply by operating their car in its normal state. I can conjure up endless scenarios where a normal driver would panic for at least several seconds under uncontrolled acceleration before thinking to shift into neutral. Even I, as a seasoned well trained driver, would take a few seconds to check-down to that procedure. Would you really expect your dear 'ol granny to be as quick at the helm?
I'm guessing that Mike Dushane is gonna wish he had that particular comment back. He'd do well to keep cute comments like that holstered in light of a situation this serious.
"if you have a Toyota (or any car), and you don't know to shift to neutral if the engine races unexpectedly, you're going to succumb to what can only be described as natural selection."
What an unbelievably patronizing statement. Apparently Mr. Dushane is too isolated in his road-tester bubble to realize that there are millions of drivers out there that are fully taxed simply by operating their car in its normal state. I can conjure up endless scenarios where a normal driver would panic for at least several seconds under uncontrolled acceleration before thinking to shift into neutral. Even I, as a seasoned well trained driver, would take a few seconds to check-down to that procedure. Would you really expect your dear 'ol granny to be as quick at the helm?
I'm guessing that Mike Dushane is gonna wish he had that particular comment back. He'd do well to keep cute comments like that holstered in light of a situation this serious.
02-15-2010, 02:06 PM
#494
Senior Moderator
02-15-2010, 03:00 PM
#495
Senior Moderator
02-15-2010, 03:06 PM
#496
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
not to get off topic but if I hit the guy in front of me_at a car wash, I would consider myself an idiot.
is that what happened?
is that what happened?
My guess is korean sausage + iphone + lots of coffee this morning..
02-15-2010, 03:40 PM
#498
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
Here's a good one. Apparently, State Farm Insurance saw this trend with Toyota's, and told NHTSA..... Hmmmmm
http://www.japantoday.com/category/business/view/us-auto-insurer-says-it-warned-on-toyota-in-2007
I'm really getting a bad feeling about that company.
http://www.japantoday.com/category/business/view/us-auto-insurer-says-it-warned-on-toyota-in-2007
I'm really getting a bad feeling about that company.
02-17-2010, 04:12 AM
#499
Evil Mazda Driver
I meant to say this a few days ago but haven't gotten around to it. For those believing the Japanese that this is a ploy to increase the sales of American cars, consider the source. During our Cash for Clunkers program last summer, HALF the cars sold under CFC were Japanese and three of those were Toyotas. Not to mention the fact that Japan's own cash for clunkers prohibited people from buying anything other than a Japanese branded car if trading in under the program. They have absolutely no room to criticize our auto industry when they pulled crap like that.
So...keep in mind the source. The hypocrisy continues.
So...keep in mind the source. The hypocrisy continues.
02-17-2010, 01:53 PM
#501
Team Owner
It's amazing that new stuff continues to come out.
Complaints lodged against Toyota’s Corolla
Toyota says it will ‘take action’ if needed over possible power steering issue
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35434118/ns/business-autos/
Complaints lodged against Toyota’s Corolla
Toyota says it will ‘take action’ if needed over possible power steering issue
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35434118/ns/business-autos/
Sasaki said drivers may feel as though they were losing control over the steering, but it was unclear why. He mentioned problems with the braking system or tires as possible underlying causes of the steering problem. U.S. officials are also investigating the complaints.
02-17-2010, 02:01 PM
#502
Team Owner
Originally Posted by TheMirror
From the Car and Driver editorial -
"if you have a Toyota (or any car), and you don't know to shift to neutral if the engine races unexpectedly, you're going to succumb to what can only be described as natural selection."
From the Car and Driver editorial -
"if you have a Toyota (or any car), and you don't know to shift to neutral if the engine races unexpectedly, you're going to succumb to what can only be described as natural selection."
I won't be surprised if some legislation comes out detailing that all PRNDL shifters and on/off operation should be standardized. Sure, make it look nice, but it better be familiar to drivers.
02-17-2010, 02:04 PM
#503
Senior Moderator
I agree with that, for instance, Ive never driven an SMG car, I look at the controls for that and feel like, WTF is that???
things so vital such as the control of the drivetrain, start/stop of the engine, and throttle/braking should definitely be intuitive and familiar for anyone who steps into any car.
things so vital such as the control of the drivetrain, start/stop of the engine, and throttle/braking should definitely be intuitive and familiar for anyone who steps into any car.
02-17-2010, 03:10 PM
#504
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
I'm not going to reread the whole thread, but I thought it was stated that the Toyota linkage in their transmissions was not entirely mechanical. That the shifting was also electronic, hence the inability to just toss the car in neutral.
If I read that wrong, please let me know. I just thought C and D was a bit condescending in their viewpoint.
If I read that wrong, please let me know. I just thought C and D was a bit condescending in their viewpoint.
02-17-2010, 03:42 PM
#505
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
Akio Toyoda; you have brought shame to your family's name and everything they worked so hard to create.
02-17-2010, 08:37 PM
#507
Senior Moderator
I'm not going to reread the whole thread, but I thought it was stated that the Toyota linkage in their transmissions was not entirely mechanical. That the shifting was also electronic, hence the inability to just toss the car in neutral.
If I read that wrong, please let me know. I just thought C and D was a bit condescending in their viewpoint.
If I read that wrong, please let me know. I just thought C and D was a bit condescending in their viewpoint.
I was going to say the same thing.
02-21-2010, 09:37 PM
#509
Evil Mazda Driver
For those of you wondering why Toyota would redesign pedals and floor mats even though it wasn't the real problem, here's some leaked internal memos. 
keeps piling up.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/21/auto...dex.htm?hpt=T1
keeps piling up.http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/21/auto...dex.htm?hpt=T1
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- A Toyota executive boasted of the compny saving $100 million by negotiating a limited recall for Toyota Camry and Lexus ES cars over a problem that could cause unintended acceleration.
In an internal Toyota (TM) document used as part of a company presentation on its government relations, dated July 6, 2009, the phrase "Negotiated 'equipment' recall on Camry/ES re: [sudden acceleration], saved $100 million+ with no defect found" is among a bullet-pointed list of "wins."
An "equipment" recall is a more limited type of recall, often to repair an accessory or non-essential part of the vehicle.
The presentation was given by Yoshi Inaba, Toyota's top North American executive.
The reference was apparently to a Sept., 2007, recall to secure floor mats that could trap the cars' gas pedals.
In August, 2009, the month following the presentation in which the executive boasted of saving $100 million over a full recall, a family of four was killed in a Lexus with its gas pedal stuck under a floor mat.
In November, 2009, Toyota had full recall to reconfigure the gas pedals of numerous Toyota models to prevent such incidents.
Toyota's troubles: A timeline
Among other "wins" listed were "Avoided investigation on Tacoma rust" and helping win delays in various new federal safety regulations.
A copy of the presentation was provided to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee which is set to grill Toyota president Akio Toyoda on Wednesday. It is unclear who provided the document to the Committee.
"If anything but the safety of America's drivers influenced the decision-making process, the entire purpose of National Highway Traffic Safety Administration will be undermined," said Kurt Bardella, a spokesman for Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA), a member of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.
Neither a Toyota nor a NHTSA spokesperson was immediately available to comment for this report.
In an internal Toyota (TM) document used as part of a company presentation on its government relations, dated July 6, 2009, the phrase "Negotiated 'equipment' recall on Camry/ES re: [sudden acceleration], saved $100 million+ with no defect found" is among a bullet-pointed list of "wins."
An "equipment" recall is a more limited type of recall, often to repair an accessory or non-essential part of the vehicle.
The presentation was given by Yoshi Inaba, Toyota's top North American executive.
The reference was apparently to a Sept., 2007, recall to secure floor mats that could trap the cars' gas pedals.
In August, 2009, the month following the presentation in which the executive boasted of saving $100 million over a full recall, a family of four was killed in a Lexus with its gas pedal stuck under a floor mat.
In November, 2009, Toyota had full recall to reconfigure the gas pedals of numerous Toyota models to prevent such incidents.
Toyota's troubles: A timeline
Among other "wins" listed were "Avoided investigation on Tacoma rust" and helping win delays in various new federal safety regulations.
A copy of the presentation was provided to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee which is set to grill Toyota president Akio Toyoda on Wednesday. It is unclear who provided the document to the Committee.
"If anything but the safety of America's drivers influenced the decision-making process, the entire purpose of National Highway Traffic Safety Administration will be undermined," said Kurt Bardella, a spokesman for Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA), a member of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.
Neither a Toyota nor a NHTSA spokesperson was immediately available to comment for this report.
02-21-2010, 10:11 PM
#510
lol it'e getting even better lol
ttop story at drudge
Internal Toyota documents derided the Obama administration and Democratic Congress as “activist” and “not industry friendly," a revelation that comes days before the giant automaker's top executives testify on Capitol Hill amid a giant recall.
According to a presentation obtained under subpoena by the House Oversight and Government Relations committee, Toyota referred to the “changing political environment” as one of its main challenges and anticipated a "more challenging regulatory" environment under the Obama administration's purview.
This document, in addition to piles of other records, will be front and center this week as the Japanese automaker girds to face lawmakers hungry for answers about a recall that has the company teetering.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories...#ixzz0gEboeGX6
ttop story at drudge
Internal Toyota documents derided the Obama administration and Democratic Congress as “activist” and “not industry friendly," a revelation that comes days before the giant automaker's top executives testify on Capitol Hill amid a giant recall.
According to a presentation obtained under subpoena by the House Oversight and Government Relations committee, Toyota referred to the “changing political environment” as one of its main challenges and anticipated a "more challenging regulatory" environment under the Obama administration's purview.
This document, in addition to piles of other records, will be front and center this week as the Japanese automaker girds to face lawmakers hungry for answers about a recall that has the company teetering.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories...#ixzz0gEboeGX6
02-21-2010, 10:23 PM
#511
Evil Mazda Driver
I say again...they have no clearance to talk and say this is political when non-Japanese brand vehicles were barred from purchase under Japan's own Cash-for-Clunkers program. The fact that they are being held responsible for their actions because they sell their cars in this country does not make it political. If they really have that much of a problem with it, they can withdraw from the US market.
02-21-2010, 10:24 PM
#512
^ they are taking advantage of the US not liking the dems at this moment in time, however I think this like everything else they have done recently will bite them in the ass.
02-21-2010, 10:25 PM
#513
Senior Moderator
I say again...they have no clearance to talk and say this is political when non-Japanese brand vehicles were barred from purchase under Japan's own Cash-for-Clunkers program. The fact that they are being held responsible for their actions because they sell their cars in this country does not make it political. If they really have that much of a problem with it, they can withdraw from the US market.
02-22-2010, 12:55 AM
#514
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
I say again...they have no clearance to talk and say this is political when non-Japanese brand vehicles were barred from purchase under Japan's own Cash-for-Clunkers program. The fact that they are being held responsible for their actions because they sell their cars in this country does not make it political. If they really have that much of a problem with it, they can withdraw from the US market.
http://www.japantoday.com/category/business/view/worried-toyota-dealers-in-us-adding-own-voice-to-pr-push
They will sink with the Yamamo..err, SS Toyota.
02-22-2010, 01:14 AM
#515
All of the dealers in the US are drinking the kool-aid.....
http://www.japantoday.com/category/business/view/worried-toyota-dealers-in-us-adding-own-voice-to-pr-push
They will sink with the Yamamo..err, SS Toyota.
http://www.japantoday.com/category/business/view/worried-toyota-dealers-in-us-adding-own-voice-to-pr-push
They will sink with the Yamamo..err, SS Toyota.
02-22-2010, 03:00 AM
#516
6 Forward 1 Back
Thread Starter
02-22-2010, 09:04 AM
#517
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
^ I believe it should be broadcast on CSPAN.. if not, the records are always made public.
02-22-2010, 10:04 AM
#518
Safety Car
A guy on the Lexus forums took a loaner Lexus and tried the pedal floored neutral method. The car would not let him go into Neutral when it was floored. It was locked into gear. When he let off the gas, it then let him do it. This might be why people are having issues and not putting it in N.
02-22-2010, 03:05 PM
#520
registered pw
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Prosecutors launch criminal investigation of Toyota recalls
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100222/..._toyota_recall
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100222/..._toyota_recall