civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

But the tech in it is hard to ignore. Steer by wire, 48v systems, 800v charging, higher efficiency 4680 batteries... It's a game changer even though it looks like something a 3 year old drew.

I'm looking forward to that tech trickling down to other, less ugly models

00TL-P3.2

Steer by wire is one that makes me nervous, not having a physical backup in the event of an electrical failure

Legend2TL

McLaren facilities are pretty amazing for how high-tech/clean/organized/quiet/well lit/.....
Curious of the team that designed and developed these assembly and fabrication facilities.

Legend2TL

On the other end of the spectrum of sophistication is how Porsche assembled cars in 1986. Porsche's assembly facilities were a creative mess back then, one of the main problems that their CEO Peter Schutz knew about but was too busy attending to other more pressing problems.

Contrast that to 2015 Porsche 918 assembly, amazing what 29 years brings forth

Legend2TL

Not a Ford fan but I'd gladly spend a afternoon working on a 1G Mustang with Sydney Sweet

00TL-P3.2

There's worse ways to spend a day

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Have you flown on any commercial airliner in the past 30 years?

00TL-P3.2

Fair point

Legend2TL

Interesting look at EV charging in LA with WSJ Joanna Stern (she does good tech reporting). IMO, EV charging systems shoulda gone through a consortium selection process on everything (connector, voltage/current/ AC/DC, communication protocols aka handshaking). The multitude of standards has resulted in too many EV charging standards.

knight rider

iTrader: (1)

So much to talk about, there. To sum it up though I'd say this is one of many problems that must be fixed almost completely before wide adoption of EVs is possible. I still have a long-term optimism on a predominant EV future, but I won’t be beta testing any of this.

SamDoe1

Wut?

There are two charging standards right now and one is on its way out. J1772/CCS and NACS (Tesla) plugs are the ones used in the US and CCS is on the way out in favor of NACS. The plugs are physically different but you can definitely plug a CCS car into a Tesla charger and vice versa so the communications are just fine. In europe, it's all J1772/CCS.

Voltage is matched to the battery pack and the vast majority of chargers (if they work) will work with any car. Most non-Tesla chargers will go to 900-1000V and Tesla ones go to 500V with V1-3, V4 chargers will be 1000V.

Peak speed of modern fast chargers is 250-350kW pretty universally and that's DC charging.

AC charging is level 2 which is, again just a plug thing that's being resolved right now. Adapters are widely available for both plugs right now.

The problem with charging in the US isn't the connections, it's the chargers (aside from Tesla) being unreliable pieces of crap either not working at all or not outputting the speed advertised.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

This.

Automakers didn't want to adopt Tesla's charging standard a decade ago, and now that they're pumping out fantastic EVs that are backed by a shitty charging infrastructure, they finally want to adopt.

Also, fuck Electrify America and Chargepoint. The few times I've attempted to use their chargers, they were broken. I've never dealt with a broken Tesla charger across South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee, or Virginia.

Legend2TL

Wow, 150HP to spin that huge supercharger at full power

Tech

Anyone into cars would surely have the movie. I just wanted to know how true most of it was as I had a real hate on Leo Beebe. The actor played the part well and screwed Miles at the end.

Ford vs Ferrari Fact vs Fiction

Funny, I never had issues starting my carburetted vehicles even when they were in storage for 7 years.

Legend2TL

I have kinda a love/hate thing with "Rush" and "Ford vs Ferrari". Rush was ~85% according to Lauda, while Ford vs Ferrari I don't know but it seems less than Rush for accuracy. Beebe is portrayed as antagonist and Ford GT40 personnel are also poorly portrayed when in fact there was alot collaboration and teamwork between Shelby's personnel and Ford personnel than the film implies. One thing that was great was Phil Remington's solution to replacing the suspension knuckle complete with new brake discs and calipers in the race as shown in the movie, that's 100% accurate. Both are excellent racing movies.

Tech

Well I am sure you already know about my opinion on NA corporate management, thanks to the book you recommended and previous books I have read.

In Rush, if a car is disqualified for being too wide, how can the points be reinstated two races later, if that was even true.

In any case, I like my car movies: Lemans, Grand Prix, Vanishing Point...

I wonder what the GT40 development cost was to Ford in comparison to the 917.

Tech

Watched that GT40 video again. I think when it first came out, it went for about $180K.

On the ouside, an absolutely gorgeous car but after viewing a few YouTube videos (Doug DeMuro...) the interior is typically American...tacky and cheap. Too bad, always cutting corners which is why I drive what I drive.

Legend2TL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Formula_One_season

The disqualification was overruled by FIA which was happened in real life. There were alot of detailed in Rush that were there for Hollywoodism.

Tech

Read the link, but no reason was given for Hunt's disqualification.

Legend2TL

https://vault.si.com/vault/1976/09/2...es-for-a-crown

Details in that link

Tech

Thanks, a good read.

So the wing and track were wider than allowed. Why could that disqualification be reversed.

Reading the differences between the two drivers, no question, Niki Lauda always called a spade a spade and that is why I liked him so much and especially his determination. He told Ferrari "your car drives like s**t". The Graham Bensinger interview on YouTube with Niki shows Niki as he is. Niki and Michael S both sorted F's cars out and made them winning cars. James won by default if they both didn't get a chance to start all races.

Niki started two airlines and sometimes flew the aircraft, while James drunk himself to death and died very early. It should have really been the other way around considering Niki's crash.

Legend2TL

IDK, but considering Porsche was very small company compared to Ford at that time I imagine the 197 budget was much smaller than the GT40. Also the 917 was designed from the start as a customer prototype racecar. FWIW, here is Han Mezger's academic paper on the 917 attached with the 2008 Porsche Engineering magazine also with a 917 article in it. Note the 25 white production 917's in the photo to meet the class requirements.


Agree, the quality of the switchgear, plastic panels and other interior parts of the GT40 is not a $180K car (at that time). As much as I love the 2G NSX, it also suffered from low quality interior parts despite a phenominal other components (aluminum/steel/carbon chassis, amazing V6 turbo hybrid DCT drivetrain, ,.....) but with a Civic infotainment system

One American car that broke that rule is the C8 Corvette, it's interior is on par and some parts exceed far more expensive Ferrari/Porsche/...

Tech

I read the Proceedings...Mech. Eng. paper by Hans Mezger over thirty rears ago when I had a copy, lost it and recently dug it up again. Totally interesting. The weight of the frame, the running of the oil within the frame. Taking everything to the limit in the late 60s. And all without serious coin and in about 7 or 8 months for the project. Yes Ford or any major manufacturer can throw money at their projects; Porsche could not. Porsche had tough times, even in the early 90s.

The interior door panels on the GT40 were laughable. What garbage. As for the infotainment in the 2G NSX, same applies to the P991 from what I read. In my case since it is off all the time, not an issue as all I want in a car is an engine, manual transmission, great brakes/tires, suspension and quality.

As for the C8, I used to subscribe to Vette Vues for a few years when I was thinking about a '66 or '67 Coupe, big or small block. That never happened. If anything, a C6 Z06 to me is still the best looking Vette. The C7 looks like a Batmobile and the C8 is a copy of a 2G NSX. The worst part is when you work on these cars, and I'm not taking about an oil change, is when you find out how cheaply they are made with very little attention to detail. Have you seen some of the accidents in a Vette or even the C8. Not impressed.

Legend2TL

I used to be a big Vette critic (especially C3/C4 some of the worst quality years). However starting with the C5, there was a start of Vette quality improvement from the traditional GM junk. C6 improved on that but still had poor interior quality, also Chevy brought the aluminum chassis for the Z06 inhouse from prior Alcoa. C7 was a further improvement, also went to an all aluminum chassis impressive for car <$100k. However the C8 was truly a game changer as the Vette engineers and accountants at Bowling Green truly outdid themselves. I've never wrenched a C8 but have read a fair amount of all the great engineering that's amazing for a car that starts in the $60k range. All aluminum chassis with extruded, cast, forged, hydroformed or stamped pieces. One of the greatest components of the C8 chassis is the extremely large cast aluminum engine cradle. Below video shows how it's all put together which is definitely had alot of attention to detail especially in the suspension design (pivot points and dogbone upper A attachments)

All of the suspension structure components are sand cast lower control arms and wheel knuckles, or forged upper control arms. I may no be a big fan of pushrod motors but the LT2 is still pretty impressive for it's simplicity and reliability. The purpose built LT6 DOHC motor shares nothing with the LT series and is an incredible motor. The main reason for all this awesomeness in the C8 is Executive Chief Engineer Tadge Juechter whose leadership and guidance made it all possible, Would like to meet him or at least hear him at a technical talk. The C8 to me represents what GM can do right when it gets it all together. Being sequestered away in Bowling Green, gives them ALOT of autonomy but the one thing is Juechter and his engineers are very detail oriented so much so it rivals Porsche/Ferrari in some ways considering the C8 price point and overall high quality. From what I've read says the Corvette line is profitable (LT1 lose some money, LT2 and LT3 make small profit, Z06 make big profit)


Details of the C8 suspension design

Details of chassis construction.

Details of LT6 motor

I'll step off my soapbox now

Tech

Nahhh, always good to hear from a real auto enthusiast who also posts good links and info. BTW, I was working on my neighbor's C7. What I saw didn't impress me. Have you ever taken a door panel off a 997?

I was referring to the C6 exterior styling that I thought was so clean and un-busy from the C7 and C8. The interior of the C6 with its Mattel-like plastic was garbage though.

And of course 1972, the last year of the chrome front and rear bumpers that looked so good, till they started with a plastic nose in '73 and all plastic in '74. I could not stand the '73 and up models for that reason. And why I would have gone with a '70 with the LT1.

But getting back to the C8 Z06. With an extra 150 hp and gobs more torque, why does it not blow away a GT3 RS? And track reports are a few tenths of a second apart.

SamDoe1

Downforce, active aero, suspension tuning, and brakes. Also about 500lbs. The Z06 is an amazing car but I don't think it is meant to be an all out track car and, as such, the suspension is not a track suspension. We'll see what the ZR1 brings but that likely won't be either.

I would, personally, take the C8 Z06 over the GT3 RS for more than 50% less expense before even considering dealer markups.

The GT40 is an icon. I'm sure the interior sucks but no one cares and the values reflect that. The looks, sound, performance, and overall presence of that car make the interior irrelevant.

SamDoe1

knight rider

iTrader: (1)

Whrn I saw the email notification for ^^ this post I just knew it was for that video. I watched that this morning. A must-watch for sure. Jason and Randy are awesome at this stuff.

Legend2TL

Colleague in the 80's owned a CBX, incredibly smooth engine. I didn't know the instruments and engine/exhaust note were inspired by the McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II

Legend2TL

I've had the door panel off a 996 as well as oil/filter change and replacing brake pads, taken apart a Cayenne center console, ...in general the quality matches the appropriate price of Porsches. The C8 IMO is well above it's MSRP in terms of overall quality from interior switchgear/displays all the way to the upper suspension mounting dogbone mounts. I'm extremely impressed with how great the quality is of components/parts in the C8. Quality is up there with Porsche/Ferrari/.... In terms of the GT3 vs Z06 question, the better question to me is why is the basic C8 Z51 better overall than a 911 Carrera S? Very comparable cars but the C8 is also ~28% lower in cost as well.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2...n-test-review/.

+1, however the Z06 does have a track suspension package stand alone option FE7 (Z07 suspension). And definitely on the 2nd statement.



FWIW, a friend of a friend got a new 2023 Carrera 4S last year, saw it over Xmas. The infrared front camera is impressive for night driving and seeing animals the owner said.

Tech

The question I asked was why a car with 152 whopping HP and gobs more torque is no faster around a track. That is a substantial amount of power and torque.

People come up with excuses about more downforce which does not help straight line speed where the Z06 should just walk away...big time.
As for price, the Vette is not an import subjected to overseas shipping, import duties, etc. What is the MSRP of a C8 Z06 in Europe. Obviously not as cheap as it is here. And in the end, if you cannot tell the difference in build quality, you are damn lucky and saved yourself a bunch of money.

SamDoe1

The vette is a lot heavier and the suspension isn't as good, the price reflects this. Also, I'd wager the engine in the GT3RS is making a lot more power than advertised. Doesn't the GT3 RS also have a DRS system?

GT3 RS in Germany is 229617EUR to start which is ~$252kUSD
GT3 RS in US is 184550USD to start

The import thing doesn't check out.

Legend2TL

Oh, I know the difference in build quality in Porsche's, I've taken out the cheap plastic water pipe that disintegrated under the intake plenum on a Porsche V8 Cayenne Turbo causing the motor to instantly loose all coolant, I've debated replacing the notorious 996 countershaft bearing in my brother's 911 Cabriolet. Both due to poor quality design from Porsche, I've seen the good/bad/ugly on Porsche's quality. They're great driving cars but they still like many other cars, IMO the C8 is up to the same level as Porsche's. Both have good and bad points (inlet plastic grills on the radiators on the C8 are kinda cheap). But I definitely know Porsche still have their woes in quality in certain areas. Neither are up to Toyota/Lexus level of build quality.

Legend2TL

Building BMW S1000RR . Pretty awesome BMW took on the Japanese and Italians and proved how great their sport bike capability is.

Legend2TL

The two Jason's together showing off a pretty special 911

Tech

Why would they? If that is the case, why not advertize it. Or maybe the C8 isn't making as much HP as they claim. At the moment the GT3 has the highest HP per liter (129.5) and hell that is nothing compared to the 190 HP per liter I had in my "stock" 1986 motorcycle.

My posted question above was, what is the MSRP in Euros of a C8 Z06 in Europe. I could not find a GM Europe site.

And what vehicles sell for in various countries is all over the map. You could buy a BMW for less here than in Europe. It still does not alter the fact that there are more expenses on an import.

Tech

I wasn't referring to you, but in general.

And a Lexus RX350 would have been bought over my Acura RDX, but I just could not handle the style of a floating roof and a grill similar to an Audi. Other than that, I still rate a Toyota over a Honda, just that in the past Toyotas were kind of boring in styling. I bought a new CR-V that is still running after 23 years in the hands of a friend. There is a reason why I drive a Toyota or Honda as a daily driver, cars I keep for 15 years. Personally, I'd never consider anything from the big-three and your book proves that.

Tech

Love those factory production videos for cars and bikes.

Looking at the cam installation section, I wonder how they determine in advance which shims are needed. And I wish the factory would give you that data so that I know which shims to get in advance (they can get expensive) instead of taking readings, ordering and waiting. Luckily, clearances stay in spec for many miles.

Tech

Some impressive riding by this S1000RR rider. Two wheel drifts, braking with the rear tire in the air while leaned over, etc.

Exactly why a Moto GP champion went on to be a F1 champion and never the other way around. The skill levels are miles apart.

srika

Porsche and BMW have been doing that forever - I mean for decades - underrating HP on the public literature / info. Why do they do it? Maybe so when mags / media tested the cars, they almost always turn out to be faster than the manufacturer claims. Maybe for reasons relating to competition.