biker

The video is a bit long but interesting nonetheless:

http://world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2003-4031127a/


It seems like Honda is usually late to the game but always brings the best solution.

sauceman

Dang! 65:1 AF, ULEV, and 20% improved fuel efficiency...

Now combine that with IMA..

biker

I thought the sauceman would get a kick out of this.

The thing already gets 35MPG in the Stream - can you imagine what it would get ina TSX?

sauceman

I'd give it an easy 45.

biker

Unlike some other "gotta have it too" technologies direct injection seems to actully make sense and would be desireable.
Most high end cars will have or already have these kind of engines.

Just like the diesel, Honda managed to beat everyone else at the direct injection game.

Biker, who hopes some of this JDM/Euro stuff would trickle down to the NA market.

TSXDude

currently, what Honda vehicle uses the i-Vtec I engine?

biker

The video talks about the Stream but it could be used in a bunch of cars.

TSXDude

O, this seems interesting.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the idea of Direct Injection engine is locating the fuel injector at the middle, inside the combustion chamber, rather than outside the chamber at the intake manifold??

What other car manufacturer uses this technology??

phile

I'm pretty sure BMW uses it.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Very interesting design! It looks like in high speed/high load mode, it's still using 14.7:1 AF.

Power1Pete

Mitsubishi used DI since early 90s in Asia. 1.6L making 160ps.

Pete

biker

The new A6 3.2V6 has this. Most new engines coming in new high end models will be direct injection.
The new BMW I6s in the E90 3 series will be direct injection as will the new 3.0V6 in the new GS300.

DI, coming to an engine near you.

Lung Fu Mo Shi

Audi has it for their 2.0L I-4s and 3.2 V6s (all new engines this year).

BMW has it in some cars.

These have been mostly used in Diesel engines in Europe and Asia over the past 5-10 years, but the gas ones are just now starting to make their appearances.

TMQ

any updates on this?

biker

Holly resurrection!

You would have thought that this stuff would show up in some engine by now - 08 TSX?

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Doubt it. If anything, I don't expect this to appear until Honda's next generation of motors is released, at which time it will suddenly jump to the head of the pack and then be slowly overtaken as everyone else makes small incremental improvements while Honda just sits until its next big leap forward.

TSX69

Direct Injected Engines from Some Automakers are Seeing Reduced Performance

The promise of direct injection is very appealing to drivers and to the automakers that are always looking for an edge in performance and fuel economy. While most people that have vehicles that use direct injection have cited no issues, there are some that are having lots of problems with the technology.

Auto Observer reports that the issue is the tendency of direct injected or DI engines to build up a layer of carbon or soot around the intake valves that can over time significantly affect the performance and economy of the engines. The soot is able to build up in a DI engine because unlike a port injected engine there is no constant spray of fuel that can keep the deposits washed away.

Some engines are more trouble plagued thanks to the direct injection than others. The technology is used in multiple vehicles from different automotive firms including Audi, VW, BMW, Ford and others.

Volkswagen filed a patent application in 2002 that described the issue with DI engines, "Gasoline engines with direct injection of the fuel into the combustion chamber…suffer especially from the problem of the formation of carbon deposits…especially in the neck region of the intake valves." The application also noted that these carbon build-ups "have extremely negative effects" on the performance of the engine.

The patent app was intended to propose a new catalytic surface to the engine that would prevent the buildup of carbon. 1 automotive enthusiast found out the hard way how much carbon build-up can affect performance. Constantine Boyadjiev purchased a slightly used 2008 Audi RS 4 and later found that carbon build-up is a big issue with the vehicles.

Boyadijev said, "The loss of performance became very noticeable over time." Boyadijev took his RS 4 to a dyno to help document the problem. He reports that when the RS 4 has 15,000 miles on the clock it produced 324 all-wheel horsepower. At 20,000 miles, the same dyno showed 317 AWHP, and at another 5,000 miles, the car produced 305 AWHP.

That is hardly a direct conclusion that carbon build up is the cause of the shrinking power numbers. Anyone familiar with a dynamometer knows that there are a number of things that can affect how much power is read on a dyno including the gear the car is tested in, the heat and humidity on the day of testing, the fuel grade and quality, and even how snugly the car is strapped to the dyno rollers. There is also going to be a normal variance on each run of the dyno.

Boyadjiev said that he paid $1,200 to have the engine cleaned of carbon deposits and when the car went back to the same dyno it put down an extra 41 AWHP. Different engine designs are also having less of an issue with carbon build up so some of the issue lies with the engineers that design the motors.

Some owners of the Cadillac CTS with a direct injected 3.6-liter V6 have also complained of problems with carbon deposits. However, GM is quick to combat these claims. “We maintain great engine function and performance in our all our DI engines through an optimization strategy with our valve events,” said Ameer Haider, GM’s assistant chief engineer for V6 engines. “Our intake-cam timing, injector targeting and timing of the injection events are optimized to avoid direct fuel contact on the intake valves. This strategy keeps smoke and soot formation to an absolute minimum, which in turn prevents excessive deposit formation.”

Direct injection is used in all classes of vehicles today ranging from lowly subcompacts like the Hyundai Accent to compact sedans like the Ford Focus to midsize sedans like the Hyundai Sonata to full size pickups like the Ford F-150 with EcoBoost. Only time will tell if these vastly different vehicles using direct injection will develop issues with carbon buildup down the road.

biker

I don't know about this - diesels are a form of DI and I've never heard of this issue with them.

Biker, who wonders what ever happened to the original Honda technology.

Legend2TL

Interesting article, I wondered about that the first time I read about a gasoline direct injection. Not sure about he diesels but I've heard older diesel injectors (used in trucks) that get ultrasonically cleaned and that restores the performance. These being the non-piezo type of injector, the pressure type injectors.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

interested to see what I hate cars has to say, as I think the 2nd article was/is his observation/hypothesis.

Brandon24pdx

I'd veer away from the technology at this point, unless I was looking at a Toyota/Lexus products that use the hybrid DI/PI system.

At this point there really is no solution to the issue besides paying big bucks to have the intake manifold and combustion chambers de-carbonized, after enough time and loss of performance has occurred...an unacceptable headache and concern IMO. the slight gains in fuel economy aren't worth the lost piece of mind.

oonowindoo

i was gonna say something else until i saw the date of the original post... now i am just like why even bother....

phee

iTrader: (5)

surprised moog hasnt chimed in.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

how the hell do you spend 1200 bucks to clean up the carbon deposits?? there's multiple ways to clean it up by yourself. sure, it takes time, but you certainly can do it yourself...

and carbon deposits killing the performance on DI engines are not a news.... it's been happening to mazdaspeed3s for quite awhile.

and but people have found a way to deal with this. Install an oil catch can and run meth injection.

Costco

^I agree with you that it can be prevented/solved by yourself. But a catch can and methanol injection isn't practical for most people. Hell I bet most people driving a car with a direct injection fuel delivery system don't even know what a catch can is or does.

Still, I feel like this is the next step in terms of automotive technology... like going from throttle body injection to port injection. Every iteration of fuel delivery had it's own pros and cons and they all needed time to be refined. Hell, fuel injection was around for decades before carburetors were basically phased out of new production vehicles.



Why hasn't Honda adopted it in their engines yet? They haven't been able to make it worth it to them, for whatever reason. But assuming we'll still be driving gasoline-powered cars 20 years from now, I have to assume that Honda will have widespread use of it at some point.

and yes, I do know Honda has already toyed with production DI engines in the past (IIRC in the Japanese market)

EL_PIC

It happens all the time w many industries...

Video release 8 some years ago and no application =
failed R and D for any number of reasons or very likely ....
the oil companies now hold the patent / license.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea, Honda tinkered with the DI idea a bit...they probably couldn't figure out a way to make it work flawlessly..so they stopped making it? May be they are still working on the technology so that anyone can enjoy the benefits of DI without the extra cost/hassle of cleaning up the deposits.

Brandon24pdx

...or that they're even driving a car with direct fuel injection