NumberFive

Hi folks! I wish there was a FAQ or something for this, but I couldn't find any threads about it.

I'm looking to make the switch from a P&S to an entry-level dSLR. No real brand loyalty. Budget is $600-1000 (max) for everything I'd need (camera, lenses, memory, spare battery, bag, tripod, etc). I'm fine with new or used. The camera is mainly going to be used for outdoor and low-light settings, but I'd like to get into some macro photography if that'll fit into the budget.

The ebay packages sound attractive, but I'm worried that they'll just be crappy parts that I'll just end up needing to replace in two months anyway.

Any recommendations? Links would be really handy too. Thanks in advance!

LuvMyTSX

Check out Canon and Nikon. I just got a Canon Rebel XT from Amazon, and bought 2 lenses separately. I've been using it for a couple of months now, and I must say I really like it. It's my first time not using a point & shoot, so I have a lot to learn yet, but the Rebel XT is really quite easy to use.

I'm all new to this, too, so I'll leave the lens recommendations up to the experts :wink:

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

$600-1,000 might be a little low if you're looking for multiple lenses. Quite often they cost as much as the camera itself if not more.

NumberFive

^How about just the walkaround lens?

And LuvMyTSX - I was looking at the Rebel XT and the Nikon D40. What did you pay for your camera + accessories? And do you find the Rebel XT lacking in anything that you want to do with it?

Dan Martin

$1000 is a stretch to get everything you're looking for, and frankly, I wouldn't buy all the stuff you're looking for right from the start anyhow.

Your best bet is to get an XT/XTi/D80 with the 18-55mm kit lens and work with that for a thousand frames. There is so much to learn about an SLR that you're just going to be wasting money if you start buying things at random. You need to understand exposure and what all the settings do before you start looking at equipment to solve your problems.

Get the kit and put your money towards a nice bag, some CF cards, and a good tripod with a removable head. You don't need another lens to get you going.

Once you gain experience with everything you have, you'll know exactly what to buy for your next upgrade.

97Acura3.0CL

any links to a nice setup up that you would recommend? canon or nikon either or.....I would likeone as well

why is dslr so good? and what is the difference between a dslr and a regular digital camera like a canon sd600 or sony cybershot 7mpixel?

danny25

^ too much, where to start...

In general; the lenses are better, the sensors are better, you have complete control over how the camera takes the picture.

dom

Interested to know why you didn't list D40/D40x?

Dan Martin

You don't need to buy a package, just go to your local camera shop and get the factory kit from Canon or Nikon. When you're buying your first camera, it's best to go to a brick and mortar store to get your hands on the gear and try them all out. See what one feels best to you and which one is easiest to work with.

Anything you get from Canon or Nikon will be fine. Just don't buy some kit off ebay where it's bundled with a crappy "wide angle adapter" lens and a $15 tripod. You just need the bare minimum to get you going.

This is all I would buy on my first trip to the store:
- Any Canon or Nikon DSLR with the 18-55 kit lens
- A bag to carry it and a couple lenses
- 2GB of memory
- A card reader if you don't already have one
- a microfiber cloth for cleaning the lens and a dust blower bulb (not compressed air) for cleaning everything else

I wouldn't even worry about a tripod on the first trip because there's a lot to learn about them too, and you don't want to buy something you'll regret in a month or two.



You can take great images with a point and shoot camera just as easily as you can take crappy shots with a DSLR. All a DSLR does for you is give you more control over the images you take. The difference boils down to flexibility, quality, speed and accuracy.

Flexibility:
DSLRs can use a variety of lenses and accessories that will let you take shots that a point and shoot camera can't. However, that flexibility comes with added financial cost and complexity.


Quality:
The sensor in an average digital camera is about the size of your baby fingernail. The sensors in DSLRs are 6 to 20 times larger. The larger the sensor, the more light each pixel receives. More light = cleaner images.
There are many other image quality benefits to larger sensors but they get harder to explain.


Speed & Accuracy:
A point and shoot camera is designed for snapshots. The autofocus system isn`t very efficient at tracking a moving subject nor is it very good at locking on in dim lighting. DSLRs have multiple AF sensors that will track a subject across the frame and some have high-precision sensors for low-light work. Along with the faster autofocus, the DSLRs have immediate response when you press the shutter button. If you want to capture a brief moment, there`s nothing more frustrating than waiting for a shutter to fire. DSLRs typically have much larger and faster frame buffer for burst shots. Some models can shoot as many as 10 frames a second, whereas most P&S cameras would struggle to maintain 1 frame per second.

Dan Martin

Lens incompatibility and crappy AF. It`s really just a fancy point and shoot in my opinion.

Well that might be a little harsh, but the D80 is a much better camera.

NumberFive

Thanks for the suggestions! I'm leaning towards the Rebel XT or XTi. Gotta do some research on the differences between the two. Also, I'll hold off on the additional lenses for now, and save for a macro lense later (those things are EXPENSIVE).

And what should someone look for in a good tripod? TBH, I hadn't put a lot of thought into that -- I would have just looked for a collapsible aluminum one that didn't feel cheap and call it a day!

jupitersolo

I'm looking for a good tripod now, I went to look at them today. The Bogen-Manfrotto 3021 ($172.00) is nice, but if you want to carry it around for awhile, it's going to get heavy. So I look at Gitzo's, $$$ over $500, but very light.

Then a good head can run $80-$300+, ball head, three way head or geared head. SO MANY CHOICES for both.


For your gear you may want to look for used, a lot of people are getting rid of their xt's and xti's. Some bought more than they needed. Others haven't used it since they bought it.

I look at craigslist all of the time. But you have to be very careful and only deal with people where you can meet with them to see the items first. I was able to get a lens for about $300 less than new because this guy bought a 30D and two lenses last May, almost never used them and now needs money for something else. So I got one of his lenses cheap.

you also might want to look at www.keh.com , they sell used equipment.

Dan Martin

There are two parts to every tripod: the legs and the head. Ideally, you want a tripod that is rigid and will let you upgrade the head as your skills improve.

The sky's the limit when it comes to tripod pricing, but you don't need to blow a ton of money on a good set to get you going. If you realistically set aside $120 to $150 for the tripod, you'd be able to get a nice system that will last you a long time. If you drop $50 on a tripod, you're almost guaranteed to be back in a month to buy the $120 model, so you might as well get the right stuff to begin with.

Things to look for in tripod legs:
- Height: you want something that will let you stand up without slouching
- Weight: if you're going to be hiking with the tripod, you'll want something light. If you're just driving from location to location, you can get away with something heavier.
- Number of leg segments: 3 segments is faster to set up, 4 segments will typically pack to a smaller size
- Type of locks (flip locks or twist locks): this is just a preference thing
- Material: Aluminum is cheapest but heaviest, carbon is most expensive and is the lightest, basalt is somewhere between the other two.

Things to look for in a head:
- No matter what you buy, make sure you get a head with a quick release plate for the camera! You don't want to have to screw your camera on to your tripod every time you want to use it. The quick release plates screw to your camera, then you just clip them in and out of the head.
- The two main styles are 3-way and ballhead. This is a personal preference thing; they both have their pros and cons. 3-way heads are generally more precise to position, but they are slower to get there. Ballheads are fast to maneuver, but can be finicky to precisely position. Generally, you need to spend a lot more to get a good ballhead than you do to get a good 3-way head.

Models that I would look into are from Bogen/Manfrotto. Check out the 3021 or 3011. The 190 series is also nice but they can be a little on the shorter side.

LuvMyTSX

I'd go with what Dan said and get the kit lens. I didn't do that, and got the 28-105, which is fine, but it's more money. Go with the starter kit IMO until you get used to the camera (and also to see if you'll really use it as much as you think).

I bought my Rebel XT from Circuit City (I originally said Amazon, but I was mistaken....I got my lens from Amazon). I think it was $590 or so. That was just the camera body, not the kit that comes with the 18-55 lens. The one with the lens was a little bit more, but nothing drastic.

I've only been using this camera for a couple of months, and I'm still learning, but so far it's doing everything I want it to do. I'm coming from a long history of P&S cameras, so this will last me a while, as there is definitely a learning curve.

After working with the camera & 28-105 lens at a wedding recently, I realized I would like a faster lens for low light shots (particularly where you can't use a flash), so I just purchased the 85mm f/1.8 lens. I haven't used it yet, though, as it just came in yesterday.

I'll be looking for a tripod pretty soon....maybe this summer.

I went to a camera shop by my house and looked at bags. I don't remember exactly how much mine was, but it wasn't more than $30. Make sure you get one that isn't tiny, but isn't real big, either. You'll want some room to grow as you accumulate a few lenses.

Basically, you don't need to go overboard to get started. It's easy to get excited and want this and that, but if you start with the kit, you'll have plenty to play with for a while.

wndrlst

I, too, have the RebelXT. While I may be looking to upgrade at some point, the camera is more than enough to get you started. I've had it less than a year, and have shot over 6000 frames. My only complaint is that the texture on the grip is actually wearing off, but that's purely cosmetic.

I agree with Dan on the D40. If you're looking at Nikon, go with the D80, or even a used D70.

I know there was another recent thread discussing this. I'll see if I can bump it...

svtmike

The big problem with the D40 in my eyes is that it's only compatible with AF-S lenses (that have their own focusing motors) - so you buy a cheap camera but then you find you are forced into the more expensive lenses unless you really are into manual focusing.

I can't comment on the D40 AF system since I haven't used it, but I can guess that I wouldn't like anything that was a step below my old D70. I second Dan's suggestion that in a new Nikon, start with the D80.

Billiam

One additional note regarding ball head vs. 3-way: a ball head lets you very quickly compensate for your tripod not being setup level with the ground. Technically speaking, you might be able to do the same thing with a three way head but it can be a real PIA. With a ball head it's completely intuitive and fast.

Oh, and if you think you might keep the tripod long enough to use it for macro photography, then definitely take into consideration the minimum possible height as well as the fully extended height Dan mentioned.

Dan Martin

Speaking of macro tripods, I just ordered a new macro-friendly pod this week.

I got in on the pre-order for the new Feisol CT-3342 and went with the horizontal adapter kit. Now I just have to wait...

Billiam

I just received a new toy myself. Hint: the model number has two of the same three letters as my car. Unfortunately, the weather has been pretty dreary around here this week so I haven't really been able to do enough with the new gadget yet to post a first impressions thread.

Mizouse

i dont even know what car you drive

Dan Martin

Cool! I've always wanted one of those. Did you go with the 24?

I'm going to call you Mr. Scheimpflug from now on.

Shalooby

I got the Nikon D50 as a kit with the 18 - 55 and 55 - 200 lenses about a year ago and couldn't be happier. This was right before the D40 came out. I was torn between the Rebel XT and the Nikon, (the XT was what I went in to get after doing the research) but after holding both of them the choice was obvious for me. The Nikon felt a lot more comfortable, the XT was smaller and didn't fit my hand as naturally as the D50.
I'm still learning new tricks and techniques and will eventually upgrade but for now It's all I need. Over the course of the year I have aquired a tripod and a remote which for the Nikon is only about 30 bucks. No need to worry about an extra battery either as it lasts forever between charges. Unless you plan on shooting more than 1500 or so frames per session.

I'm going to pass on a link to Ken Rockwells sight. It's a great place for both pro-am and beginners alike. I can't remember how I stumbled across it but I'm glad I did. One of the best sights at keeping things simple. He doesn't go into scientific details when it comes to light sensitivity and other mind numbing areas like a lot of other sights do and does a good job of explaining why a lot of that information is irrelevant anyway. ( See his section on Histograms and why single color ones are useless )

Here's the link:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/index.htm

JediMindTricks

great thread! lots of good info.

Shalooby

Check out his section here on why the Nikon - Canon - whatever wars are a waste of time. It's not about the camera.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/notcamera.htm

Billiam

No offense intended Shaloby, but Rockwell almost always comes across as a pompous ass to me regardless of his intents. This particular column is a prime example.

NumberFive

TONS of great information in here! If I put this into FAQ form, can we get a mod to sticky/maintain it? Looking in dom's direction...

dom

Sure.

NumberFive

Awesome! PM sent.

Shalooby

Agreed, however the general idea he's trying to get across is valid. A great camera and / or equipment does not make for better photographs. The same point can be applied to other areas of human interest as well, although having better than average equipment definately helps.

jupitersolo

I'll have to read his site a little more to see what he's about. But the first line saying he buys from Ritz, has me a little worried. They're are WAY overpriced and when I have ever tried to talk to someone there, this has been their face . And I've had to go elsewhere to talk to somebody.

NumberFive

Good point, Shalooby. Having the best rifle in the world doesn't make you the world's best marksman.

Based off what people are saying in this thread, it's a matter of getting a "feel" for how to take good photographs. However, do any of you have tips for what the important parts of taking digital photographs are, and how to adjust for them in different conditions? (ISO, flash/no flash, shutter speed, etc). I'd personally like to see what the ranges should be at for night shots, sport/moving shots, macro shots, and day shots.

Dan Martin

Saying "it's not the camera, it's the photographer" isn't really accurate. Cameras and accessories help photographers get the shot. You can be the best photographer in the world and see the perfect shot, but if your camera won't let you take it, then you're screwed.

LuvMyTSX

It goes both ways IMO.

jupitersolo

People can get the same or almost the same shot using different settings. The main thing is that the ISO, shutter and aperture must all line up, except if you're trying to over or underexpose the shot.

A great book that has helped me is "Understanding Exposure" it costs $15.00 from amazon.com, there's also another book that my film class has used "Photography" their on the ninth edtion now. But it's $105.00.


http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-...0730677&sr=8-1

moeronn

The saying "You're only as good as your equipment" should be supplemented with "if you're even that good."

I know I'm not

Dan Martin

[QUOTE=NumberFive]
Based off what people are saying in this thread, it's a matter of getting a "feel" for how to take good photographs.
[/quotes] It's really one part science and one part creativity. Once you understand what your camera can and can't do, then it's up to you to decide how to use it.
You just need to understand how the three controls effect your photos. Aperture, shutter speed, and ISO all have a different effect.

Aperture: this is the opening or iris of the lens. It's probably the trickiest to understand so I'll get it out of the way first.
- The lower the number, the more open the aperture is, which lets more light in.
- Aperture also controls the "depth of field", or in other words, how deep the plane of focus is. Once you focus on something, a portion in front and behind that subject will be in focus. If you shoot at smaller apertures (i.e. f/8 or f/11), a lot of the foreground and background will be in focus. Large aperture openings (i.e. f/2.8 or f/1.4) have a very shallow depth of field, so your subject is isolated from the background.

Shutter speed: simply put, this is how long your shutter stays open.
- the longer your shutter stays open, the more light will be absorbed by the sensor. Of course, longer exposure times will increase the chance of something moving in your frame, causing motion blur.
- the shorter your shutter stays open, the more you'll freeze the action, but the less light you'll be recording.

ISO: this is essentially the "volume knob" for your sensor.
- The higher the ISO, the more sensitive your sensor is. That sensitivity comes at the cost of higher noise.
- Generally, you leave your ISO at the lowest setting possible and only turn it up if a larger aperture or a slower shutter speed isn't an option.


In general terms:
- Broad daylight is of course very bright, so you'll be using your lowest ISO along with higher F-numbers and faster shutter speeds to prevent overexposure.
- Night time requires long shutter speeds, higher ISOs, and lower F-numbers to record enough light. If you use a tripod and your subject isn't moving, then you can keep your ISO down and compensate with a longer exposure time.
- Sports generally want faster shutter speeds to freeze the motion. In that case you'll want lower F-numbers and possibly higher ISO speeds to compensate.

Billiam

Exactly. This is the point Rockwell just barely gave mention to in his column while going on and on for pages that "it's not the camera."

Do I purchase higher end gear beacause I "need" it to do what I want to do? Not even close. I purchase higher end gear because it gives me the confidence of knowing what I view as shortcomings in my work are my doing and not the eqipment's and that these shortcomings can ultimately be fixed with nothing more than motivation on my part.

Shalooby

It all boils down to a personal preference. I'm a firm believer in keeping it simple however I'm not going to strictly adhere to his or anyone elses advice without trying different things myself. He's got some good information there, just because he comes across as an arrogant bastard doesn't disqualify me from listening.

NumberFive

Another question for the experts in here -- what are some good online sites for cameras? I did a search on sites like pricewatch, but the places with attractive prices had some SERIOUS negative feedback from hundreds of people (e.g Broadway Photo, Prestige Camera, Foto Connection, etc).

jupitersolo

www.bhphotovideo.com
www.amazon.com
www.jr.com
www.keh.com
www.adorama.com

I have never had a problem with any of them so far, amazon.com is taking something back that I bought 2 months. Their normal policy is 30 days.