Toyota: Recall News
01-25-2010, 11:30 AM
#121
Senior Moderator
^So they say, at this point im not sure i really trust them 
01-25-2010, 11:42 AM
#122
The sizzle in the Steak
Technically it's not "at this point"....it's from a year ago.
Do you really think Toyota is going to throw one of its major parts suppliers under the bus to cover up a "software" issue?
Seriously.....come on now.
Do you really think Toyota is going to throw one of its major parts suppliers under the bus to cover up a "software" issue?
Seriously.....come on now.
01-25-2010, 11:43 AM
#123
Senior Moderator
Guess i needed red text.
Though i still dont trust them after they way this all played out.
Though i still dont trust them after they way this all played out.
01-25-2010, 11:49 AM
#124
The sizzle in the Steak
01-25-2010, 12:05 PM
#125
Senior Moderator
I was never convinced either way that it was a mechanical or software issue. All I knew was that it was something much more than just stupid floor mats. I also do not trust them after all of this.
01-25-2010, 12:19 PM
#126
Senior Moderator
01-25-2010, 01:17 PM
#128
The sizzle in the Steak
The recall includes an unspecified number of 2009-10 Pontiac Vibes, designed and built by Toyota for General Motors' now- discontinued Pontiac brand. Vibe is similar to the Toyota Matrix that's part of the recall.
You think they are recalling Vibes for no reason?
01-25-2010, 02:31 PM
#129
01-25-2010, 10:12 PM
#130
Senior Moderator
Why not? It would not be nearly as damaging to the company long term to shaft the parts supplier vs deal with a huge issue that falls squarely on them. I am not saying one way or the other, but totally dismissing things saying,...they wouldn't do that, is rather naive. A parts supplier in Ontario, probably struggling in today's climate, probably wouldn't be too hard to bury in lawsuits, accusations, and red tape. Again, not saying I think things are one way or the other.
Last edited by West6MT; 01-25-2010 at 10:16 PM.
01-26-2010, 07:05 AM
#132
Safety Car
Still Selling
Toyota says it still is making cars and trucks with potentially sticking accelerator-pedal assemblies that triggered a recall last Thursday of 2.3 million Toyota-brand cars and trucks.
The automaker, reeling from its second throttle-related recall in three months, previously had said it continues to sell the vehicles and that it believes they are risk-free when new.
But it was unclear whether Toyota was still building the models.
"We're still making these cars," Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said late Monday. "At some point in time, we'll be faced with the decision — a 'stop' decision," he said.
Current model-year vehicles are included in the recall, which spans 2005 to 2010 models. Exact years depend on specific models. Toyota says it has no remedy yet to prevent throttles from sticking open, but says it happens rarely and only after age and wear.
Toyota (TM) eventually will have to ask owners to bring new vehicles back in for the recall remedy. That could cost millions of dollars and annoy owners.
Too, if Toyota's wrong about the pedals being immune to sticking open until they age and wear, the new vehicles could be involved in accidents.
Wealthy Toyota is "the one car company that can afford" to halt production for a few weeks until a remedy is found, says James Bell, executive market analyst at Kelley Blue Book, which tracks the auto industry.
The problem is with gas-pedal assemblies from CTS, a multinational auto components supplier.
The company, which supplies components for several automakers, is based in Elkhart, Ind., but the suspect parts came from its plant in Streetsville, Ontario, according to documents Toyota filed with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
NHTSA says it's waiting for a reply to its letter asking CTS whether sold similar pedal assemblies to other automakers.
CTS hasn't returned calls asking for comment. It is to report fourth-quarter earnings Wednesday. Through three quarters, it lost $38.2 million on sales of $365 million. Nine-month results in 2008 were a profit of $23.1 million on revenue of $529 million.
The sticking-pedal recall is unrelated to a recall last November of 4.2 million Toyota and Lexus models with gas pedals that can get jammed wide-open by floor mats.
Other recall-related developments:
•Toyota has been flooded with owner calls, so many that callers are directed to a website here that answers frequently asked questions.
"It was all hands on deck," Lyons says, to work the phones at what Toyota calls its Customer Experience Center (800-331-4331).
•Japan's Yomiuri newspaper reported Monday that Toyota will recall 2 million cars in Europe for the same pedal problem. A Toyota statement said that no decision has been made.
•Lawyers already are suing Toyota, claiming it should fix the cars right away or take them back.
Richard McCune, an attorney in Redlands, Calif., has filed a lawsuit for which he is seeking class-action status.
He says he believes there have been at least 2,000 recorded instances of unintended acceleration in Toyotas, more than have been reported to safety agencies or Toyota itself."It was all hands on deck," Lyons says, to work the phones at what Toyota calls its Customer Experience Center (800-331-4331).
•Japan's Yomiuri newspaper reported Monday that Toyota will recall 2 million cars in Europe for the same pedal problem. A Toyota statement said that no decision has been made.
•Lawyers already are suing Toyota, claiming it should fix the cars right away or take them back.
Richard McCune, an attorney in Redlands, Calif., has filed a lawsuit for which he is seeking class-action status.
01-26-2010, 08:27 AM
#133
Senior Moderator
01-26-2010, 10:16 AM
#134
The sizzle in the Steak
There vast majority of all Toyota vehicle owners have had no symptoms of the throttle problem. That being said, being that Vibe sales are pretty low compared to total Toyota vehicle sales, it's very possible there are no reported issues.
01-26-2010, 10:24 AM
#135
The sizzle in the Steak
Ya, just like Ford would never just pay off settlements thinking it would be cheaper than dealing with a certain problem way back when.
Why not? It would not be nearly as damaging to the company long term to shaft the parts supplier vs deal with a huge issue that falls squarely on them. I am not saying one way or the other, but totally dismissing things saying,...they wouldn't do that, is rather naive. A parts supplier in Ontario, probably struggling in today's climate, probably wouldn't be too hard to bury in lawsuits, accusations, and red tape. Again, not saying I think things are one way or the other.
Why not? It would not be nearly as damaging to the company long term to shaft the parts supplier vs deal with a huge issue that falls squarely on them. I am not saying one way or the other, but totally dismissing things saying,...they wouldn't do that, is rather naive. A parts supplier in Ontario, probably struggling in today's climate, probably wouldn't be too hard to bury in lawsuits, accusations, and red tape. Again, not saying I think things are one way or the other.
Toyota might also have Bigfoot employed at the factory too.:wink:
...and
@ parts supplier in Ontario....as if CTS was a small company that would go away.Why would a parts supplier willingly take the blame for something that is not their fault at all, and be blamed for the largest vehicle recall ever?
What exactly does the supplier gain by this?
...the theory makes no sense.....again, it's mechanical, not software.
BTW settling a complaint out of court is the M.O. of all business.
Nothing new here.
Last edited by Moog-Type-S; 01-26-2010 at 10:27 AM.
01-26-2010, 11:37 AM
#136
01-26-2010, 05:36 PM
#137
Burning Brakes
Toyota halts US sales of 8 recalled vehicle models
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Toyota Motor Co. said Tuesday it was suspending U.S. sales of eight recalled vehicle models to fix accelerator pedals that stick, the latest quality problem to confront the world's No. 1 automaker.
As part of the plan, Toyota said it was halting production at five manufacturing facilities for the week of Feb. 1 "to assess and coordinate activities." There are 2.3 million vehicles involved in the recall, which was announced last week.
"This action is necessary until a remedy is finalized," said Bob Carter, Toyota's group vice president and general manager.
The Japanese automaker says the sales suspension includes the 2009-2010 RAV4, the 2009-2010 Corolla, the 2009-2010 Matrix, the 2005-2010 Avalon, the 2007-2010 Camry, the 2010 Highlander, the 2007-2010 Tundra and the 2008-2010 Sequoia.
It was unclear how long Toyota would suspend production of the vehicles. In an e-mail to employees, company officials said, "we don't know yet how long this pause will last but we will make every effort to resume production soon." Toyota officials did not immediately return phone messages.
Toyota said the company would stop producing vehicles at plants in Indiana, Kentucky, Texas and Canada. They said no other North American Toyota facility would be affected by the decision.
The auto company said the sales suspension would not affect Lexus or Scion vehicles. Toyota said the Prius, Tacoma, Sienna, Venza, Solara, Yaris, 4Runner, FJ Cruiser, Land Cruiser and select Camry models, including all Camry hybrids, would remain for sale.
Toyota said last week it was recalling 2.3 million vehicles in the U.S. to fix accelerator pedals with mechanical problems that could cause them to become stuck.
That announcement followed a larger recall months earlier of 4.2 million vehicles because of problems with gas pedals becoming trapped under floor mats, causing sudden acceleration. That problem was the cause of several crashes, including some fatalities.
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Toyota Motor Co. said Tuesday it was suspending U.S. sales of eight recalled vehicle models to fix accelerator pedals that stick, the latest quality problem to confront the world's No. 1 automaker.
As part of the plan, Toyota said it was halting production at five manufacturing facilities for the week of Feb. 1 "to assess and coordinate activities." There are 2.3 million vehicles involved in the recall, which was announced last week.
"This action is necessary until a remedy is finalized," said Bob Carter, Toyota's group vice president and general manager.
The Japanese automaker says the sales suspension includes the 2009-2010 RAV4, the 2009-2010 Corolla, the 2009-2010 Matrix, the 2005-2010 Avalon, the 2007-2010 Camry, the 2010 Highlander, the 2007-2010 Tundra and the 2008-2010 Sequoia.
It was unclear how long Toyota would suspend production of the vehicles. In an e-mail to employees, company officials said, "we don't know yet how long this pause will last but we will make every effort to resume production soon." Toyota officials did not immediately return phone messages.
Toyota said the company would stop producing vehicles at plants in Indiana, Kentucky, Texas and Canada. They said no other North American Toyota facility would be affected by the decision.
The auto company said the sales suspension would not affect Lexus or Scion vehicles. Toyota said the Prius, Tacoma, Sienna, Venza, Solara, Yaris, 4Runner, FJ Cruiser, Land Cruiser and select Camry models, including all Camry hybrids, would remain for sale.
Toyota said last week it was recalling 2.3 million vehicles in the U.S. to fix accelerator pedals with mechanical problems that could cause them to become stuck.
That announcement followed a larger recall months earlier of 4.2 million vehicles because of problems with gas pedals becoming trapped under floor mats, causing sudden acceleration. That problem was the cause of several crashes, including some fatalities.
01-26-2010, 05:51 PM
#138
Senior Moderator
Well, if you believe in conspiracy theories...sure.
Toyota might also have Bigfoot employed at the factory too.:wink:
...and @ parts supplier in Ontario....as if CTS was a small company that would go away.
Why would a parts supplier willingly take the blame for something that is not their fault at all, and be blamed for the largest vehicle recall ever?
What exactly does the supplier gain by this?
...the theory makes no sense.....again, it's mechanical, not software.
BTW settling a complaint out of court is the M.O. of all business.
Nothing new here.
Toyota might also have Bigfoot employed at the factory too.:wink:
...and
@ parts supplier in Ontario....as if CTS was a small company that would go away.Why would a parts supplier willingly take the blame for something that is not their fault at all, and be blamed for the largest vehicle recall ever?
What exactly does the supplier gain by this?
...the theory makes no sense.....again, it's mechanical, not software.
BTW settling a complaint out of court is the M.O. of all business.
Nothing new here.
You completely missed the point of the Ford example. The point was the ethics went out the window. They knew full well they were endangering people but went the cheaper route rather than the ethical route. The implications of these massive recalls for Toyota are potentially huge. You don't think one of the biggest auto companies in the world wouldn't think about how to gloss things over as best as possible to limit the damage. I wouldn't put it past them. Large companies NEVER partake in illegal and/or unethical behavior.
What I find interesting is how you categorically state it is mechanical, and not electrical. How do you know this exactly? Are you party to information others are not? If things were so cut and dry no one would be even debating this. I don't buy the floor mat or the pedal assembly story. Having been involved with the development of a prototype fuel cell vehicle, I know all too well how extremely complicated and important the control systems are for cars to work properly. Completely dismissing the electronics from having anything to do with the problem, based on anything I have read to date about this, is rather narrow sighted IMO.
Anyway, I am not getting sucked in to arguing about this. If none of this is Toyota's fault, they still didn't handle it quickly enough.
01-26-2010, 06:29 PM
#139
The sizzle in the Steak
Where did I say CTS was small? I said they were struggling (true), and implied that blaming them casts doubt on Toyota having responsibility for the issue (Blame the Ontario plant etc). It doesn't matter what the supplier does. Of course they will refute the blame unless it really is their fault (unlikely). Toyota could just reflash the ECUs in the recall to cover any blame that would fall on them. All they would have to do is cause doubt as to their own responsibility to escape potentially serious repercussions. .
CTS has not refuted Toyota's claim.
Reflashing ECU's is far and away cheaper that replacing throttle pedals.
Why would Toyota pay more to recall a car that they already admitted has a problem? Makes zero sense.
You completely missed the point of the Ford example. The point was the ethics went out the window. They knew full well they were endangering people but went the cheaper route rather than the ethical route. The implications of these massive recalls for Toyota are potentially huge. You don't think one of the biggest auto companies in the world wouldn't think about how to gloss things over as best as possible to limit the damage. I wouldn't put it past them. Large companies NEVER partake in illegal and/or unethical behavior.
Is Toyota working in the "gray" areas when it comes to ethics...perhaps.
What I find interesting is how you categorically state it is mechanical, and not electrical. How do you know this exactly? Are you party to information others are not? If things were so cut and dry no one would be even debating this. I don't buy the floor mat or the pedal assembly story. Having been involved with the development of a prototype fuel cell vehicle, I know all too well how extremely complicated and important the control systems are for cars to work properly. Completely dismissing the electronics from having anything to do with the problem, based on anything I have read to date about this, is rather narrow sighted IMO.
Anyway, I am not getting sucked in to arguing about this. If none of this is Toyota's fault, they still didn't handle it quickly enough.
Anyway, I am not getting sucked in to arguing about this. If none of this is Toyota's fault, they still didn't handle it quickly enough.
You however are pulling conspiracy theories out of thin air regarding software issues. Where is your proof?
The facts are that Toyota states it's a mechanical issue for the recall.
Until they state otherwise or somebody proves that it's a software issue, it will continue to be a mechanical issue.....and a dangerous one at that.
...and good to see Toyota pull its head out of the sand and stop selling the defective vehicles.
01-26-2010, 06:46 PM
#140
The sizzle in the Steak
^^ 
01-26-2010, 08:25 PM
#141
Senior Moderator
The idea that Toyota can throw a parts maker like CTS under the bus is nuts.
CTS has not refuted Toyota's claim.
Reflashing ECU's is far and away cheaper that replacing throttle pedals.
Why would Toyota pay more to recall a car that they already admitted has a problem? Makes zero sense.
Sure Toyota "could" be taking part in illegal activity...but there is no proof.
Is Toyota working in the "gray" areas when it comes to ethics...perhaps.
Let's see....all I have every stated is what Toyota has stated: It's a mechanical issue. My "proof" is straight from Toyota and the NHTSB.
You however are pulling conspiracy theories out of thin air regarding software issues. Where is your proof?
The facts are that Toyota states it's a mechanical issue for the recall.
Until they state otherwise or somebody proves that it's a software issue, it will continue to be a mechanical issue.....and a dangerous one at that.
...and good to see Toyota pull its head out of the sand and stop selling the defective vehicles.
CTS has not refuted Toyota's claim.
Reflashing ECU's is far and away cheaper that replacing throttle pedals.
Why would Toyota pay more to recall a car that they already admitted has a problem? Makes zero sense.
Sure Toyota "could" be taking part in illegal activity...but there is no proof.
Is Toyota working in the "gray" areas when it comes to ethics...perhaps.
Let's see....all I have every stated is what Toyota has stated: It's a mechanical issue. My "proof" is straight from Toyota and the NHTSB.
You however are pulling conspiracy theories out of thin air regarding software issues. Where is your proof?
The facts are that Toyota states it's a mechanical issue for the recall.
Until they state otherwise or somebody proves that it's a software issue, it will continue to be a mechanical issue.....and a dangerous one at that.
...and good to see Toyota pull its head out of the sand and stop selling the defective vehicles.
How is using what Toyota has stated any better than my own or anyone elses speculation? Sir, did you kill this man? Nope. Ok, let's all go home, he said he didn't do it. The flip side of course,... just because people are saying Toyota is guilty of wrong doing doesn't mean they are guilty. I don't see how you can jump to such a concrete conclusion based on what Toyota says.
All I am saying is that you cant completely discount the electronics issue. It's a drive by wire system. Everything is ECU controlled. There is no mechanical connection between the throttle and the real butterfly valve. The pedal would have to be stuck on the floor for the car to be WOT. If there is a problem with the sensors, that's electronic related. Who's responsible for that??? Is it part of the pedal assembly? Is it the responsibility of another supplier? If the sensors were installed properly there should be nothing wrong with them. If they were shorted anywhere which then lead to problems, that's Toyota's fault for poor integration.
Last edited by West6MT; 01-26-2010 at 08:30 PM.
01-26-2010, 08:36 PM
#142
Senior Moderator
Anyway, call me a conspiracy theorist if you want. To discount the ECU in an issue like this in cars that have everything controlled by the ECU, is ridiculous IMO. Assuming Toyota isn't evil and covering anything up, how much time has anyone spent seriously looking at the ECU. If the problem is hard to replicate because it only happens under certain circumstances, how much effort has been spent trying to figure out what is wrong. The NHTSA looked at it a little IIRC. What has Toyota done/looked at to totally rule out the ECU being related to these issues?
Anyway, that's all from me.
Anyway, that's all from me.
01-26-2010, 09:23 PM
#143
Senior Moderator
Lose a bit more money now on recalls, vs much more if it ended up squarely on them for electronics leading to this situation. If consumers lost confidence and went to other brands, the damage would be much greater than spending money on recalls right now (damage control). Agreed, it is nuts to saythey would throw a parts supplier under the bus, but maybe they are willing to go that far. It was a suggestion, not an accusation.
How is using what Toyota has stated any better than my own or anyone elses speculation? Sir, did you kill this man? Nope. Ok, let's all go home, he said he didn't do it. The flip side of course,... just because people are saying Toyota is guilty of wrong doing doesn't mean they are guilty. I don't see how you can jump to such a concrete conclusion based on what Toyota says.
All I am saying is that you cant completely discount the electronics issue. It's a drive by wire system. Everything is ECU controlled. There is no mechanical connection between the throttle and the real butterfly valve. The pedal would have to be stuck on the floor for the car to be WOT. If there is a problem with the sensors, that's electronic related. Who's responsible for that??? Is it part of the pedal assembly? Is it the responsibility of another supplier? If the sensors were installed properly there should be nothing wrong with them. If they were shorted anywhere which then lead to problems, that's Toyota's fault for poor integration.
How is using what Toyota has stated any better than my own or anyone elses speculation? Sir, did you kill this man? Nope. Ok, let's all go home, he said he didn't do it. The flip side of course,... just because people are saying Toyota is guilty of wrong doing doesn't mean they are guilty. I don't see how you can jump to such a concrete conclusion based on what Toyota says.
All I am saying is that you cant completely discount the electronics issue. It's a drive by wire system. Everything is ECU controlled. There is no mechanical connection between the throttle and the real butterfly valve. The pedal would have to be stuck on the floor for the car to be WOT. If there is a problem with the sensors, that's electronic related. Who's responsible for that??? Is it part of the pedal assembly? Is it the responsibility of another supplier? If the sensors were installed properly there should be nothing wrong with them. If they were shorted anywhere which then lead to problems, that's Toyota's fault for poor integration.
Anyway, call me a conspiracy theorist if you want. To discount the ECU in an issue like this in cars that have everything controlled by the ECU, is ridiculous IMO. Assuming Toyota isn't evil and covering anything up, how much time has anyone spent seriously looking at the ECU. If the problem is hard to replicate because it only happens under certain circumstances, how much effort has been spent trying to figure out what is wrong. The NHTSA looked at it a little IIRC. What has Toyota done/looked at to totally rule out the ECU being related to these issues?
Anyway, that's all from me.
Anyway, that's all from me.
01-27-2010, 07:13 AM
#144
Senior Moderator
I'm also a little confused as to why mostly 09-10 model years are included in the recall when they say the issue develops over time. Aren't those too new to have the issue? The Avalon, Camry, and Tundra go back the furthest. I don't know, something just doesn't seem right.
01-27-2010, 07:18 AM
#145
Senior Moderator
Well according Good Morning America this morning they still dont have a answer to what is the real problem.
01-27-2010, 09:18 AM
#147
I'm the Firestarter
01-27-2010, 10:54 AM
#148
The sizzle in the Steak
Lose a bit more money now on recalls, vs much more if it ended up squarely on them for electronics leading to this situation. If consumers lost confidence and went to other brands, the damage would be much greater than spending money on recalls right now (damage control). Agreed, it is nuts to saythey would throw a parts supplier under the bus, but maybe they are willing to go that far. It was a suggestion, not an accusation.
How is using what Toyota has stated any better than my own or anyone elses speculation? Sir, did you kill this man? Nope. Ok, let's all go home, he said he didn't do it. The flip side of course,... just because people are saying Toyota is guilty of wrong doing doesn't mean they are guilty. I don't see how you can jump to such a concrete conclusion based on what Toyota says.
All I am saying is that you cant completely discount the electronics issue. It's a drive by wire system. Everything is ECU controlled. There is no mechanical connection between the throttle and the real butterfly valve. The pedal would have to be stuck on the floor for the car to be WOT. If there is a problem with the sensors, that's electronic related. Who's responsible for that??? Is it part of the pedal assembly? Is it the responsibility of another supplier? If the sensors were installed properly there should be nothing wrong with them. If they were shorted anywhere which then lead to problems, that's Toyota's fault for poor integration.
How is using what Toyota has stated any better than my own or anyone elses speculation? Sir, did you kill this man? Nope. Ok, let's all go home, he said he didn't do it. The flip side of course,... just because people are saying Toyota is guilty of wrong doing doesn't mean they are guilty. I don't see how you can jump to such a concrete conclusion based on what Toyota says.
All I am saying is that you cant completely discount the electronics issue. It's a drive by wire system. Everything is ECU controlled. There is no mechanical connection between the throttle and the real butterfly valve. The pedal would have to be stuck on the floor for the car to be WOT. If there is a problem with the sensors, that's electronic related. Who's responsible for that??? Is it part of the pedal assembly? Is it the responsibility of another supplier? If the sensors were installed properly there should be nothing wrong with them. If they were shorted anywhere which then lead to problems, that's Toyota's fault for poor integration.
If the mechanical portion of the pedal is defective, you have a mechanical problem. If the electronic portion of the pedal is defective you have an electrical problem.
BUT this is a separate argument from the peeps that say "ITS THE SOFTWARE!!!!" The pedal is what is claimed to be the problem and is what is being replaced....and at great cost.
To reprogram the software is again soooo much cheaper and simpler than replacing mechanical parts. If it is a software issue, than why not just fix the "code"? Why go through all the trouble if it's not the pedal?
The conspiracy is that Toyota knows it's a software issue, and they can't for some reason "fix the software/code".....hmmmmm.....if this is true then it means that Toyota (one of the biggest car companies in the world) cannot figure out how to do drive-by-wire safely and effectively, when the rest of the automakers of the world have no issues like this....fromt he biggest to the smallest companie that offer drive-by-wire. This tech. is not cutting edge...it's been around for a good while....and for Toyota not being able to solve a "software problem" is unbelievable.
The conspiracy theory is a stretch.....a big one.
01-27-2010, 03:41 PM
#149
Honda Fanboy
Toyota says it knew there were problems with accelerator-pedal assemblies from supplier CTS late last year, but not enough to warrant a recall.
01-27-2010, 03:58 PM
#150
The sizzle in the Steak
^^ Honda did the same thing with their AT 5speeds. They knew about it for a long time and did nothing. Random dowshifting into 2nd gear from 75mph on the freeway isn't exactly safe.
Truth of the matter is all vehicle companies "know" they have a safety problem when issues come up. It's the bean counters and lawyers that make the call on whether to recall or not.
It's a long list of history from the Chevy sidemount gas tanks, Ford Pinto rear gas tank, Ford Explorer/Firestone Tires.......etc and so on.
This is not something new. All vehicle MFG. do this. It does not make it "right", but Toyota is one of many doing the same thing.
Welcome to the world of big business.
Truth of the matter is all vehicle companies "know" they have a safety problem when issues come up. It's the bean counters and lawyers that make the call on whether to recall or not.
It's a long list of history from the Chevy sidemount gas tanks, Ford Pinto rear gas tank, Ford Explorer/Firestone Tires.......etc and so on.
This is not something new. All vehicle MFG. do this. It does not make it "right", but Toyota is one of many doing the same thing.
Welcome to the world of big business.
01-27-2010, 04:20 PM
#151
Senior Moderator
The pedal "assembly" is mechanical & partial electronic...in that it takes mechanical motion and translates it to electronic signal for drive-by-wire.
If the mechanical portion of the pedal is defective, you have a mechanical problem. If the electronic portion of the pedal is defective you have an electrical problem.
BUT this is a separate argument from the peeps that say "ITS THE SOFTWARE!!!!" The pedal is what is claimed to be the problem and is what is being replaced....and at great cost.
To reprogram the software is again soooo much cheaper and simpler than replacing mechanical parts. If it is a software issue, than why not just fix the "code"? Why go through all the trouble if it's not the pedal?
The conspiracy is that Toyota knows it's a software issue, and they can't for some reason "fix the software/code".....hmmmmm.....if this is true then it means that Toyota (one of the biggest car companies in the world) cannot figure out how to do drive-by-wire safely and effectively, when the rest of the automakers of the world have no issues like this....fromt he biggest to the smallest companie that offer drive-by-wire. This tech. is not cutting edge...it's been around for a good while....and for Toyota not being able to solve a "software problem" is unbelievable.
The conspiracy theory is a stretch.....a big one.
If the mechanical portion of the pedal is defective, you have a mechanical problem. If the electronic portion of the pedal is defective you have an electrical problem.
BUT this is a separate argument from the peeps that say "ITS THE SOFTWARE!!!!" The pedal is what is claimed to be the problem and is what is being replaced....and at great cost.
To reprogram the software is again soooo much cheaper and simpler than replacing mechanical parts. If it is a software issue, than why not just fix the "code"? Why go through all the trouble if it's not the pedal?
The conspiracy is that Toyota knows it's a software issue, and they can't for some reason "fix the software/code".....hmmmmm.....if this is true then it means that Toyota (one of the biggest car companies in the world) cannot figure out how to do drive-by-wire safely and effectively, when the rest of the automakers of the world have no issues like this....fromt he biggest to the smallest companie that offer drive-by-wire. This tech. is not cutting edge...it's been around for a good while....and for Toyota not being able to solve a "software problem" is unbelievable.
The conspiracy theory is a stretch.....a big one.
The "conspiracy theory" (as I see it) isn't that Toyota cant fix the software issue, it is that they are using the pedal problem to cover/cloud the software issue to save face as much as possible in the public's eyes even though it costs more than a simple software fix.
01-27-2010, 04:33 PM
#152
Senior Moderator
^^ Honda did the same thing with their AT 5speeds. They knew about it for a long time and did nothing. Random dowshifting into 2nd gear from 75mph on the freeway isn't exactly safe.
Truth of the matter is all vehicle companies "know" they have a safety problem when issues come up. It's the bean counters and lawyers that make the call on whether to recall or not.
It's a long list of history from the Chevy sidemount gas tanks, Ford Pinto rear gas tank, Ford Explorer/Firestone Tires.......etc and so on.
This is not something new. All vehicle MFG. do this. It does not make it "right", but Toyota is one of many doing the same thing.
Welcome to the world of big business.
Truth of the matter is all vehicle companies "know" they have a safety problem when issues come up. It's the bean counters and lawyers that make the call on whether to recall or not.
It's a long list of history from the Chevy sidemount gas tanks, Ford Pinto rear gas tank, Ford Explorer/Firestone Tires.......etc and so on.
This is not something new. All vehicle MFG. do this. It does not make it "right", but Toyota is one of many doing the same thing.
Welcome to the world of big business.
Not to mention the signs of the trans downshifting were there. I saw/caught every one of my 5 failures before it downshifted (all were on the interstate)
01-27-2010, 04:38 PM
#153
The sizzle in the Steak
Agreed, it could be any one (or combo) of those that is the problem,..pedal, electronics associated with the pedal, or ECU/software. However, the electronics problem would very well fall back on Toyota's lap if the problem was/is associated with the sensors/electronics of the pedal (integration they are responsible for).
The "conspiracy theory" (as I see it) isn't that Toyota cant fix the software issue, it is that they are using the pedal problem to cover/cloud the software issue to save face as much as possible in the public's eyes even though it costs more than a simple software fix.
The "conspiracy theory" (as I see it) isn't that Toyota cant fix the software issue, it is that they are using the pedal problem to cover/cloud the software issue to save face as much as possible in the public's eyes even though it costs more than a simple software fix.
Are you saying that Toyota makes the sensors and supplies the elec. sensors to CTS, and CTS installs them into the drive-by-wire pedal assembly?
01-27-2010, 04:39 PM
#154
The sizzle in the Steak
There is a HUGE difference between the car downshifting to 2nd as opposed to the car accelerating with no control over it.
Not to mention the signs of the trans downshifting were there. I saw/caught every one of my 5 failures before it downshifted (all were on the interstate)
Not to mention the signs of the trans downshifting were there. I saw/caught every one of my 5 failures before it downshifted (all were on the interstate)
for you....My failures were sudden.Thankfully I was not going 75 mph.
Point is Honda turned a blind eye too. All mfg. turn blind eyes until the "gun" is at their head.
01-27-2010, 04:40 PM
#155
The sizzle in the Steak
The Recall Notice (one of many)
Make: TOYOTA
Model: CAMRY
Model Year: 2008
Manufacturer: TOYOTA MOTOR NORTH AMERICA, INC.
Mfr's Report Date: JAN 21, 2010
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 10V017000
NHTSA Action Number: N/A
Component: POWER TRAIN:CLUTCH ASSEMBLY:PEDAL/LINKAGE
Potential Number of Units Affected: N/A
Summary: TOYOTA IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2005-2010 AVALON, MODEL YEAR 2007-2010 CAMRY, MODEL YEAR 2009-2010 COROLLA, COROLLA MATRIX, RAV4, MODEL YEAR 2010 HIGHLANDER, MODEL YEAR 2008-2010 SEQUOIA, AND MODEL YEAR 2007-2010 TUNDRA. DUE TO THE MANNER IN WHICH THE FRICTION LEVER INTERACTS WITH THE SLIDING SURFACE OF THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL INSIDE THE PEDAL SENSOR ASSEMBLY, THE SLIDING SURFACE OF THE LEVER MAY BECOME SMOOTH DURING VEHICLE OPERATION. IN THIS CONDITION, IF CONDENSATION OCCURS ON THE SURFACE, AS MAY OCCUR FROM HEATER OPERATION (WITHOUT A/C) WHEN THE PEDAL ASSEMBLY IS COLD, THE FRICTION WHEN THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL IS OPERATED MAY INCREASE, WHICH MAY RESULT IN THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL BECOMING HARDER TO DEPRESS, SLOWER TO RETURN, OR, IN THE WORST CASE, MECHANICALLY STUCK IN A PARTIALLY DEPRESSED POSITION. Consequence: THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL MAY BECOME HARD TO DEPRESS, SLOW TO RETURN TO IDLE, OR, IN THE WORST CASE, MECHANICALLY STUCK IN A PARTIALLY DEPRESSED POSITION, INCREASING THE RISK OF A CRASH. Remedy: TOYOTA HAS NOT YET PROVIDED A REMEDY PLAN OR AN OWNER NOTIFICATION SCHEDULE. OWNERS MAY CONTACT TOYOTA AT 1-800-331-4331. Notes: OWNERS MAY ALSO CONTACT THE NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION'S VEHICLE SAFETY HOTLINE AT 1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), OR GO TO HTTP://WWW.SAFERCAR.GOV
Model: CAMRY
Model Year: 2008
Manufacturer: TOYOTA MOTOR NORTH AMERICA, INC.
Mfr's Report Date: JAN 21, 2010
NHTSA CAMPAIGN ID Number: 10V017000
NHTSA Action Number: N/A
Component: POWER TRAIN:CLUTCH ASSEMBLY:PEDAL/LINKAGE
Potential Number of Units Affected: N/A
Summary: TOYOTA IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2005-2010 AVALON, MODEL YEAR 2007-2010 CAMRY, MODEL YEAR 2009-2010 COROLLA, COROLLA MATRIX, RAV4, MODEL YEAR 2010 HIGHLANDER, MODEL YEAR 2008-2010 SEQUOIA, AND MODEL YEAR 2007-2010 TUNDRA. DUE TO THE MANNER IN WHICH THE FRICTION LEVER INTERACTS WITH THE SLIDING SURFACE OF THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL INSIDE THE PEDAL SENSOR ASSEMBLY, THE SLIDING SURFACE OF THE LEVER MAY BECOME SMOOTH DURING VEHICLE OPERATION. IN THIS CONDITION, IF CONDENSATION OCCURS ON THE SURFACE, AS MAY OCCUR FROM HEATER OPERATION (WITHOUT A/C) WHEN THE PEDAL ASSEMBLY IS COLD, THE FRICTION WHEN THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL IS OPERATED MAY INCREASE, WHICH MAY RESULT IN THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL BECOMING HARDER TO DEPRESS, SLOWER TO RETURN, OR, IN THE WORST CASE, MECHANICALLY STUCK IN A PARTIALLY DEPRESSED POSITION. Consequence: THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL MAY BECOME HARD TO DEPRESS, SLOW TO RETURN TO IDLE, OR, IN THE WORST CASE, MECHANICALLY STUCK IN A PARTIALLY DEPRESSED POSITION, INCREASING THE RISK OF A CRASH. Remedy: TOYOTA HAS NOT YET PROVIDED A REMEDY PLAN OR AN OWNER NOTIFICATION SCHEDULE. OWNERS MAY CONTACT TOYOTA AT 1-800-331-4331. Notes: OWNERS MAY ALSO CONTACT THE NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION'S VEHICLE SAFETY HOTLINE AT 1-888-327-4236 (TTY 1-800-424-9153), OR GO TO HTTP://WWW.SAFERCAR.GOV
01-27-2010, 05:08 PM
#157
The sizzle in the Steak
Some insight into the recall.....
Outsourcing effort rains on Toyota's parade
The halting of Toyota Motors Corp. sales and production on some of its most popular models across North America is the result of an outsourcing effort that produced faulty gas pedals that have proven a propensity to stick in certain isolated incidents.
While there were only five incidents reported in Canada, Toyota issued a directive late Tuesday to its dealers across North America to halt sales immediately on eight of its most popular brands. It will also idle six of its North American factories, including those in Woodstock and Cambridge, Ont.
At this point, the automaker does not know how long the sales freeze will continue, but has told dealers they expect production to be halted for at least two weeks.
The Japanese carmaker also said Wednesday it was weighing whether a recall would be necessary in Europe, as well.
At issue is the recent outsourcing of the company's accelerator pedals and pedal assembly to CTS Corporation, an Elkhart, Indiana-based parts marker, after demand for Toyota's vehicles outstripped the capacity of the part's original Japanese manufacturer, Denso Corp.
The CTS-produced pedals have demonstrated a propensity for sticking when exposed to condensation, those briefed on the nature of recall have said.
"The whole problem started with the outsourcing of the pedal and the pedal assembly," said Vito Polera, fleet manager at Toronto's Northwest Toyota dealership. "When [Denso] couldn't meet the demand, Toyota farmed out to CTS, which is the affected part."
CTS reportedly manufactured the part in question at its facility in Mississauga, Ont., according to the Associated Press.
Mr. Polera said all that is required of the recalled vehicles is to inspect whether the pedal is a CTS pedal, and if they are, they are being removed regardless of whether they are sticking, and replaced with Denso ones. "There are no more CTS pedals going in the cars," Mr. Polera said.
However, the shortage of Denso pedals persists, which is why Toyota is halting the production and sales of the affected models so that it can use the parts presently in its plants to replace the parts on the vehicles already on the road.
"They're being more proactive than reactive, which is a good sign," Mr. Polera said, adding, however, he is concerned about the lasting impact the recall will have on the brand and his dealership's sales this year. "It's not a positive, that's for sure. It will affect us," he added.
The sticking pedals have not caused any fatalities in Canada, but have potentially been linked to 19 fatalities in the United States.
Toyota's recall surrounding accelerator pedals has broadened in size and scope in recent days.
Last Thursday, it said it would add another 2.3 million vehicles to the recall, after already saying 4.2 million vehicles were being impacted by unintended acceleration relating to floor mats.
The vehicles in question include certain models of its RAV4, Matrix, and Avalon, which are produced in Canada, as well as its Camry, Highlander, Tundra, Sequoia, and Avalon, which are produced in the United States.
In Canada, 270,000 vehicles are impacted by the recall, but the lasting damage to Toyota's reputation for safety is incalculable at this point.
"This unprecedented automotive decision indicates how serious a safety problem this is," said Michelle Krebs, senior analyst at Edmunds.com, in an email.
"We've gone from floor mats to recalls for wear items to a full shutdown, and I can't help but think that the company's credibility is being called into question," she added.
Toyota is the biggest car company in the world one of the biggest car retailers in Canada, selling 205,115 vehicles in this country last year. Toyota also builds more cars in Canada and sells more Canadian-built cars here than any other manufacturer, or roughly 20,000 a month.
The halting of Toyota Motors Corp. sales and production on some of its most popular models across North America is the result of an outsourcing effort that produced faulty gas pedals that have proven a propensity to stick in certain isolated incidents.
While there were only five incidents reported in Canada, Toyota issued a directive late Tuesday to its dealers across North America to halt sales immediately on eight of its most popular brands. It will also idle six of its North American factories, including those in Woodstock and Cambridge, Ont.
At this point, the automaker does not know how long the sales freeze will continue, but has told dealers they expect production to be halted for at least two weeks.
The Japanese carmaker also said Wednesday it was weighing whether a recall would be necessary in Europe, as well.
At issue is the recent outsourcing of the company's accelerator pedals and pedal assembly to CTS Corporation, an Elkhart, Indiana-based parts marker, after demand for Toyota's vehicles outstripped the capacity of the part's original Japanese manufacturer, Denso Corp.
The CTS-produced pedals have demonstrated a propensity for sticking when exposed to condensation, those briefed on the nature of recall have said.
"The whole problem started with the outsourcing of the pedal and the pedal assembly," said Vito Polera, fleet manager at Toronto's Northwest Toyota dealership. "When [Denso] couldn't meet the demand, Toyota farmed out to CTS, which is the affected part."
CTS reportedly manufactured the part in question at its facility in Mississauga, Ont., according to the Associated Press.
Mr. Polera said all that is required of the recalled vehicles is to inspect whether the pedal is a CTS pedal, and if they are, they are being removed regardless of whether they are sticking, and replaced with Denso ones. "There are no more CTS pedals going in the cars," Mr. Polera said.
However, the shortage of Denso pedals persists, which is why Toyota is halting the production and sales of the affected models so that it can use the parts presently in its plants to replace the parts on the vehicles already on the road.
"They're being more proactive than reactive, which is a good sign," Mr. Polera said, adding, however, he is concerned about the lasting impact the recall will have on the brand and his dealership's sales this year. "It's not a positive, that's for sure. It will affect us," he added.
The sticking pedals have not caused any fatalities in Canada, but have potentially been linked to 19 fatalities in the United States.
Toyota's recall surrounding accelerator pedals has broadened in size and scope in recent days.
Last Thursday, it said it would add another 2.3 million vehicles to the recall, after already saying 4.2 million vehicles were being impacted by unintended acceleration relating to floor mats.
The vehicles in question include certain models of its RAV4, Matrix, and Avalon, which are produced in Canada, as well as its Camry, Highlander, Tundra, Sequoia, and Avalon, which are produced in the United States.
In Canada, 270,000 vehicles are impacted by the recall, but the lasting damage to Toyota's reputation for safety is incalculable at this point.
"This unprecedented automotive decision indicates how serious a safety problem this is," said Michelle Krebs, senior analyst at Edmunds.com, in an email.
"We've gone from floor mats to recalls for wear items to a full shutdown, and I can't help but think that the company's credibility is being called into question," she added.
Toyota is the biggest car company in the world one of the biggest car retailers in Canada, selling 205,115 vehicles in this country last year. Toyota also builds more cars in Canada and sells more Canadian-built cars here than any other manufacturer, or roughly 20,000 a month.
01-27-2010, 05:55 PM
#158
Safety Car
This is Just Wrong
We're honestly tired of writing about Toyota and its recall-to-end-all-recalls, but the news keeps coming so our fingers get no rest.
Just like the Honda dealer in Dallas that's apparently hoping to gain a few extra customers at Toyota's expense (above), General Motors has announced a new incentive campaign that it hopes will woo customers away from a bruised and battered Toyota still trying to contain the fallout from this latest recall. Effective today through the end of February, GM is offering three deals to any Toyota customer who wants to switch to a Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac or GMC product. The skinny:
Meanwhile, the recall's negative impact for Toyota has spread to some of its fleet customers. Both Avis Budget Group and Enterprise Holdings have reportedly announced they will pull thousands of Toyota models each from their fleets. Avis Budget estimates it will pull 20,000 units, while Enterprise Holdings, which manages its Enterprise, National and Alamo brands, didn't give a number, except to say that about four percent of its fleet would be affected. Both companies reiterated that the action was just a precautionary measure, but that has to be of little solace to Toyota in the midst of a barrage of negative press surrounding its unintended acceleration woes.
Just like the Honda dealer in Dallas that's apparently hoping to gain a few extra customers at Toyota's expense (above), General Motors has announced a new incentive campaign that it hopes will woo customers away from a bruised and battered Toyota still trying to contain the fallout from this latest recall. Effective today through the end of February, GM is offering three deals to any Toyota customer who wants to switch to a Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac or GMC product. The skinny:
* Lease Customers: Waiver of three payments up to $1,000
* Financing Customers: Zero percent financing for 60 months
* Cash Buyers: $1,000 purchase bonus
We're very interested to see how delicately GM handles promoting these new incentives. Will The General kick its Japanese competitor while it's down – or just land a love tap on the jaw?* Financing Customers: Zero percent financing for 60 months
* Cash Buyers: $1,000 purchase bonus
Meanwhile, the recall's negative impact for Toyota has spread to some of its fleet customers. Both Avis Budget Group and Enterprise Holdings have reportedly announced they will pull thousands of Toyota models each from their fleets. Avis Budget estimates it will pull 20,000 units, while Enterprise Holdings, which manages its Enterprise, National and Alamo brands, didn't give a number, except to say that about four percent of its fleet would be affected. Both companies reiterated that the action was just a precautionary measure, but that has to be of little solace to Toyota in the midst of a barrage of negative press surrounding its unintended acceleration woes.
01-27-2010, 06:46 PM
#159
Honda Fanboy
^^ Honda did the same thing with their AT 5speeds. They knew about it for a long time and did nothing. Random dowshifting into 2nd gear from 75mph on the freeway isn't exactly safe.
Truth of the matter is all vehicle companies "know" they have a safety problem when issues come up. It's the bean counters and lawyers that make the call on whether to recall or not.
It's a long list of history from the Chevy sidemount gas tanks, Ford Pinto rear gas tank, Ford Explorer/Firestone Tires.......etc and so on.
This is not something new. All vehicle MFG. do this. It does not make it "right", but Toyota is one of many doing the same thing.
Welcome to the world of big business.
Truth of the matter is all vehicle companies "know" they have a safety problem when issues come up. It's the bean counters and lawyers that make the call on whether to recall or not.
It's a long list of history from the Chevy sidemount gas tanks, Ford Pinto rear gas tank, Ford Explorer/Firestone Tires.......etc and so on.
This is not something new. All vehicle MFG. do this. It does not make it "right", but Toyota is one of many doing the same thing.
Welcome to the world of big business.
01-27-2010, 06:57 PM
#160
The sizzle in the Steak
I'd rather have my car slow down on me abruptly rather than have it continue to accelerate out of control. Big difference. Honda never had to stop selling eight cars from their lineup, three of which count for over 50% of total sales. It's a disaster beyond anyones wildest dreams. Stop trying to sugar coat it and just deal with it. I don't even know why you are bringing Honda into this. This is about Toyota and the huge mess they are in right now.
slow down abruptly That's rich!
You need to understand that EVERY automaker does and will do the same thing Toyota is doing. It's called damage control.
Nobody is sugar coating everything.
Start reading up on the facts....there are plenty in this thread.
Put your conspiracy theories of Toyota aside....they are unfounded.