Toyota: Recall News
11-26-2009, 12:59 AM
#81
Yeah, long time no see! Coffee was good 
Re: topic at hand. I can see where a car might surge slightly under some conditions, but IMO this is not "unintended acceleration" per se. I guess if you were old, blue haired and surprised by this, you could hit the gas pedal vs. the brake. BUT since you have quick reflexes, you were able to catch it.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that there isn't something going on here that is NOT related to floor mats. All I'm suggesting is that I don't believe in cars accelerating out of control at full throttle, beyond the brake's ability to stop them AND then reverting to normal operation. The one thing that might sway me is if all the cars involved are DBW, but somehow I doubt we'd find that.
Re: topic at hand. I can see where a car might surge slightly under some conditions, but IMO this is not "unintended acceleration" per se. I guess if you were old, blue haired and surprised by this, you could hit the gas pedal vs. the brake. BUT since you have quick reflexes, you were able to catch it. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that there isn't something going on here that is NOT related to floor mats. All I'm suggesting is that I don't believe in cars accelerating out of control at full throttle, beyond the brake's ability to stop them AND then reverting to normal operation. The one thing that might sway me is if all the cars involved are DBW, but somehow I doubt we'd find that.
11-28-2009, 08:55 AM
#82
Senior Moderator
Conspiracy Theorists Unite!!!
meh...think about it for a moment.
Why spend all the extra money & time re-configuring foot wells, accel. pedals, and floor mats, when "if" it's a software bug, the easy fix (and waaaaay cheaper) is to do update the software for the brake override that
cuts engine power in case of simultaneous application of both the accelerator and brake pedals?
Software update is the simplest, quickest, and cheapest fix.
There is no reason to spend millions of dollars fixing footwells, mats, & pedals........unless they are the issue and not the software.
meh...think about it for a moment.
Why spend all the extra money & time re-configuring foot wells, accel. pedals, and floor mats, when "if" it's a software bug, the easy fix (and waaaaay cheaper) is to do update the software for the brake override that
cuts engine power in case of simultaneous application of both the accelerator and brake pedals?
Software update is the simplest, quickest, and cheapest fix.
There is no reason to spend millions of dollars fixing footwells, mats, & pedals........unless they are the issue and not the software.
11-28-2009, 09:46 AM
#83
Punk Rocker
I did think about it for a min. They are blaming the pedal mat thing to this date. If that was the problem they should address that AS WELL as having the brakes override the ecu. Problem is most are having a hard time believing its the pedal and more to do with a ecu issue and this all of a sudden they are applying a new override is a true cover up. When you start reading how the cars just take off its not a mat issue and toyota doesnt want the bad press. They want to look like they are going above whats needed and doing this as well.
11-29-2009, 08:13 PM
#84
Senior Moderator
11-30-2009, 07:26 AM
#85
Safety Car
Article
Data Points to Toyota's Throttles, Not FloorMats
(click for article w/ animations)
Eric Weiss was stopped at a busy Long Beach intersection last month when he said his 2008 Toyota Tacoma pickup unexpectedly started accelerating, forcing him to stand on the brakes to keep the bucking truck from plowing into oncoming cars.(click for article w/ animations)
Toyota Motor Corp. says the gas pedal design in Weiss' truck and more than 4 million other Toyota and Lexus vehicles makes them vulnerable to being trapped open by floor mats, and on Wednesday, it announced a costly recall to fix the problem.
But Weiss is convinced his incident wasn't caused by a floor mat. He said he removed the mats in his truck months earlier on the advice of his Toyota dealer after his truck suddenly accelerated and rear-ended a BMW.
"The brakes squealed and the engine roared," the 52-year-old cabinet maker said of the most recent episode. "I don't want to drive the truck anymore, but I don't want anyone else to, either."
Amid widening concern over unintended acceleration events, including an Aug. 28 crash near San Diego that killed a California Highway Patrol officer and his family, Toyota has repeatedly pointed to "floor mat entrapment" as the problem.
But accounts from motorists such as Weiss, interviews with auto safety experts and a Times review of thousands of federal traffic safety incident reports all point to another potential cause: the electronic throttles that have replaced mechanical systems in recent years.
The Times found that complaints of sudden acceleration in many Toyota and Lexus vehicles shot up almost immediately after the automaker adopted the so-called drive-by-wire system over the last decade. That system uses sensors, microprocessors and electric motors -- rather than a traditional link such as a steel cable -- to connect the driver's foot to the engine.
For some Toyota models, reports of unintended acceleration increased more than fivefold after drive-by-wire systems were adopted, according to the review of thousands of consumer complaints filed with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
Toyota first installed electronic throttles in 2002 model year Lexus ES and Camry sedans. Total complaints of sudden acceleration for the Lexus and Camry in the 2002-04 model years averaged 132 a year. That's up from an average of 26 annually for the 1999-2001 models, the Times review found.
The average number of sudden-acceleration complaints involving the Tacoma jumped more than 20 times, on average, in the three years after Toyota's introduction of drive-by-wire in these trucks in 2005. Increases were also found on the hybrid Prius, among other models.
Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said the automaker could not explain the trend. But Toyota has consistently held that electronic control systems, including drive-by-wire, are not to blame.
"Six times in the past six years NHTSA has undertaken an exhaustive review of allegations of unintended acceleration on Toyota and Lexus vehicles," Toyota said in a statement this month. "Six times the agency closed the investigation without finding any electronic engine control system malfunction to be the cause of unintended acceleration."
NHTSA officials have consistently said they have not found any electronic defects. "In the high-speed incidents, which are the type of crashes in which death or serious injury is most likely, the only pattern NHTSA has found to explain at least some of them are pedal entrapment by floor mats," a spokeswoman said in a written statement.
Toyota has been under a spotlight since the San Diego crash, in which the driver's desperate efforts to stop the car were recorded on a 911 emergency call made by a passenger.
After that incident, The Times reported that sudden-acceleration events involving Toyota vehicles have resulted in at least 19 deaths since the introduction of the 2002 model year. By comparison, NHTSA says all other automakers combined had 11 fatalities related to sudden acceleration in the same period.
Independent electronics and engineering experts say that the drive-by-wire systems differ from automaker to automaker and that the potential for electronic throttle control systems to malfunction may have been dismissed too quickly by both Toyota and federal safety officials.
Unlike mechanical systems, electronic throttles -- which have the look and feel of traditional gas pedals -- are vulnerable to software glitches, manufacturing defects and electronic interference that could cause sudden acceleration, they say.
Ask the computer
"With the electronic throttle, the driver is not really in control of the engine," said Antony Anderson, a Britain-based electrical engineering consultant who investigates electrical failures and has testified in sudden-acceleration lawsuits. "You are telling the computer, will you please move the throttle to a certain level, and the computer decides if it will obey you."
Although Toyota says it knows of no electronic defects that would cause a vehicle to surge out of control, it has issued at least three technical service bulletins to its dealers warning of problems with the new electronic throttles in the 2002 and 2003 Camry.
The throttle systems on six-cylinder engines can cause the vehicle to "exhibit a surging during light throttle input at speeds between 38 mph and 42 mph," according to one of the bulletins that was published by Alldata, a vehicle information company. The solution provided to dealers was to reprogram the engine control module.
NHTSA, the nation's primary agency for auto safety, has conducted a total of eight investigations of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles since 2003, prompted by defect petitions from motorists and its own examination of complaints. But the agency has tested electronic throttle systems only twice in those probes, its records show.
Three years ago, the agency asked Toyota to test an electronic throttle component from a 2006 Camry, a task the company delegated to the Japanese supplier that manufactured the part. The supplier exonerated the throttle, and then NHTSA allowed Toyota to keep virtually the entire 74-page report almost completely confidential. The report, posted on the agency's website, has dozens of redacted pages.
The other test, conducted at a NHTSA laboratory in Massachusetts, found that a Toyota throttle exhibited unusual behavior when researchers applied a magnetic field to the device's sensitive electronics. Engine speed surged by 1,000 revolutions per minute, according to a 2008 report by the agency's Vehicle Research and Test Center.
Nonetheless, the lab concluded that the system "showed no vulnerabilities to electric signal activities." The details of the experiment were not explained in the lab report, and the agency never explained the apparent contradiction.
Advanced systems
The electronic throttle was first introduced by BMW in 1988.Like a conventional throttle system, it controls the flow of air into the engine. Today, every new Toyota vehicle sold in the U.S. uses drive-by-wire. The systems cost less to install on the assembly line and increase the efficiency of the vehicle.
To run these advanced throttle systems, each automaker develops its own electronic control modules and proprietary software that has unique control logic. The operations of the systems are opaque to consumers, as are potential failures.
In a worst-case scenario, consultant Anderson says, stray electrical voltages, electromagnetic signals or bad sensor readings could cause an undetectable error within the car's network of up to 70 microprocessors, setting off an unpredictable chain of reactions. One of those, he said, could be a command to completely open the throttle.
The auto industry has battled allegations of electronic defects in sudden-acceleration lawsuits for more than two decades, arguing that they are not caused by any vehicle defect.
Richard Schmidt, a former UCLA psychology professor and now an auto industry consultant specializing in human motor skills, said the problem almost always lies with drivers who step on the wrong pedal.
"When the driver says they have their foot on the brake, they are just plain wrong," Schmidt said. "The human motor system is not perfect, and it doesn't always do what it is told."
To be sure, the complaints by Toyota and Lexus owners about sudden acceleration involve a tiny share of the company's vehicles on the road.
But runaway acceleration represents a high proportion of the complaints filed by consumers about Toyota in federal databases. For the 2007 Lexus ES sedan, for example, 74 of 132 complaints filed with NHTSA alleged sudden acceleration.
And independent experts say the number of complaints actually filed is only a tiny fraction of all potential problems, because most people don't bother filing a report.
Critics say NHTSA hasn't kept pace with technological changes.
The auto industry has undergone a technological revolution in the last decade, and today about 25% of a vehicle's price reflects its electronics content. Nonetheless, NHTSA has adopted few, if any, standards for designing or testing vehicle electronics, according to industry officials. Indeed, the agency's two-page safety standard for accelerators was adopted in 1973.
Dale Kardos, who runs a consulting firm that helps automakers with regulatory issues, said manufacturers had repeatedly tried to get that standard updated because they feared they could no longer comply. "The industry would like to see standards written to reflect modern technology," Kardos said.
Instead, independent organizations and the industry itself are setting standards and developing safety policies. The International Organization for Standardization, a nongovernment group that sets industrial standards, recently introduced a new standard for automakers to protect vehicle electronics.
Supplier TRW Automotive Holdings Corp., which makes computerized controls for brakes and air bags, said its systems have multiple layers of redundancy to make sure electronic faults are detected and isolated.
"Manufacturers' standards are far above the regulatory standards," said Ian Harvey, TRW's executive lead for electromechanical compatibility. "You wouldn't want somebody to make a cellphone call and the air bag goes off. That potentially could happen if you didn't take the proper precautions."
Test drives
Despite the huge increase in complexity, when NHTSA investigators conduct field tests of alleged malfunctions of Toyota throttle systems, they rarely do more than drive suspect vehicles for a few miles, test the brakes and plug a diagnostic tool into their onboard computers to look for error codes, investigation records show.
Michael Pecht, a professor of mechanical engineering at the University of Maryland who has studied sudden acceleration for 10 years, said it's nearly impossible to replicate an electronic control system fault simply by driving a short distance.
"These are not things that occur every day. If it occurred a lot, you could track it down. If it occurs once in 10,000 trips, then it is difficult to find," he said.
What's more, said Huei Peng, a mechanical engineering professor at the University of Michigan and a specialist in vehicle control systems, many of the kinds of electronic errors that a modern car is susceptible to are not detectable by the car's fault detection system.
"When there's no error code, it doesn't mean there's no error," Peng said.
Despite the potential risks associated with electronic systems, NHTSA's own reports indicate it often does not test them while investigating unintended acceleration.
In a 2005 probe of Lexus ES vehicles, NHTSA reported that its investigator reviewed two vehicles that had allegedly surged out of control, but that "no interrogation or communication with the electronic systems was performed" before giving them a clean bill of health.
Texas resident Thomas Ritter, who has a mechanical engineering degree and spent 15 years as an engineer at General Motors, Chrysler and other auto and truck makers as well as 25 years designing oil exploration equipment, believes Toyota's acceleration problem lies in the electronics.
Last July, his wife was driving her 2006 Lexus ES 330 with four grandchildren near Houston when it accelerated out of control. To avoid a wreck, she crossed four lanes of traffic before smashing into a masonry sign, totaling the car and deploying the air bags. No one was seriously injured.
"When you think about a machine operated by computers, almost anything can go wrong," Ritter said.
A 'smart pedal'
Toyota announced Wednesday that it had developed a series of fixes to prevent floor mats from causing sudden acceleration.
In 4.26 million vehicles in the U.S. and Canada, Toyota said it would cut off a segment of the accelerator pedal and then later install a newly designed pedal. It also will add a so-called smart pedal, software that cuts engine power any time both the accelerator pedal and brake pedal are depressed at the same time.
Such software has already been adopted as a safety feature by a number of automakers, including Volkswagen, Audi, Porsche, BMW, Nissan and Chrysler, the companies said.
Independent auto safety experts said that though all of Toyota's fixes would help reduce the problem, it has not gotten to the root cause.
"These incidents are coming in left and right where you can't blame the floor mats," said Sean Kane, president of the consulting firm Safety Research and Strategies. "So they are chipping away at a problem that is widespread and complicated without having to unravel a root cause that could be very expensive."
ken.bensinger@latimes.com
ralph.vartabedian @latimes.com
Researchers Melissa Rohlin and Scott J. Wilson contributed to this report.
ralph.vartabedian @latimes.com
Researchers Melissa Rohlin and Scott J. Wilson contributed to this report.
11-30-2009, 10:38 AM
#86
The sizzle in the Steak
"Six times in the past six years NHTSA has undertaken an exhaustive review of allegations of unintended acceleration on Toyota and Lexus vehicles," Toyota said in a statement this month. "Six times the agency closed the investigation without finding any electronic engine control system malfunction to be the cause of unintended acceleration."
NHTSA officials have consistently said they have not found any electronic defects. "In the high-speed incidents, which are the type of crashes in which death or serious injury is most likely, the only pattern NHTSA has found to explain at least some of them are pedal entrapment by floor mats," a spokeswoman said in a written statement.
NHTSA officials have consistently said they have not found any electronic defects. "In the high-speed incidents, which are the type of crashes in which death or serious injury is most likely, the only pattern NHTSA has found to explain at least some of them are pedal entrapment by floor mats," a spokeswoman said in a written statement.
"These incidents are coming in left and right where you can't blame the floor mats," said Sean Kane, president of the consulting firm Safety Research and Strategies. "So they are chipping away at a problem that is widespread and complicated without having to unravel a root cause that could be very expensive."
What's cheaper: New floormats, accel. pedals, and modified footwells, or a simple software update
This guys statement makes no sense.
11-30-2009, 10:42 AM
#87
The sizzle in the Steak
I did think about it for a min. They are blaming the pedal mat thing to this date. If that was the problem they should address that AS WELL as having the brakes override the ecu. Problem is most are having a hard time believing its the pedal and more to do with a ecu issue and this all of a sudden they are applying a new override is a true cover up. When you start reading how the cars just take off its not a mat issue and toyota doesnt want the bad press. They want to look like they are going above whats needed and doing this as well.
...It's all about $$$$...and an ECU fix should be far and away cheaper than what Toyota is going to do in the recall.
Lots of Mfg. have TSB(s) all the time for ECU accel. issues software "updates". It's a common issue. So for Toyota to do what they are doing in the recall, and not just a simple software update makes no sense.......but it DOES make sense if it's not a software issue.
11-30-2009, 01:22 PM
#88
Senior Moderator
Who is "most"?
...It's all about $$$$...and an ECU fix should be far and away cheaper than what Toyota is going to do in the recall.
Lots of Mfg. have TSB(s) all the time for ECU accel. issues software "updates". It's a common issue. So for Toyota to do what they are doing in the recall, and not just a simple software update makes no sense.......but it DOES make sense if it's not a software issue.
...It's all about $$$$...and an ECU fix should be far and away cheaper than what Toyota is going to do in the recall.
Lots of Mfg. have TSB(s) all the time for ECU accel. issues software "updates". It's a common issue. So for Toyota to do what they are doing in the recall, and not just a simple software update makes no sense.......but it DOES make sense if it's not a software issue.
11-30-2009, 02:17 PM
#89
The sizzle in the Steak
However, TSB software updates are a dime a dozen in the industry.
If it was a software issue, Toyota could simply recall the cars and do a software update the same way companies do TSB software updates.
Easy, simple, and incredibly cheaper compared to new floormats, new pedal installations, and footwell retrofits.
Most cars might throw a code, but then again they might not.
If it was a common occurence in the software, it should start to show up and software engineers should be able to track it down, and revise the software.....but this is not happening.......probably because they cannot replicate this issue.....perhaps because it does not exist.
Sorry, I'm not buying into the grand conspiracty where the NHTSB is in bed with Toyota for a grand cover-up that would destroy both of their reputations forever.
11-30-2009, 05:07 PM
#90
Senior Moderator
No, they have a problem, and they admit that.
However, TSB software updates are a dime a dozen in the industry.
If it was a software issue, Toyota could simply recall the cars and do a software update the same way companies do TSB software updates.
Easy, simple, and incredibly cheaper compared to new floormats, new pedal installations, and footwell retrofits.
Most cars might throw a code, but then again they might not.
If it was a common occurence in the software, it should start to show up and software engineers should be able to track it down, and revise the software.....but this is not happening.......probably because they cannot replicate this issue.....perhaps because it does not exist.
Sorry, I'm not buying into the grand conspiracty where the NHTSB is in bed with Toyota for a grand cover-up that would destroy both of their reputations forever.
However, TSB software updates are a dime a dozen in the industry.
If it was a software issue, Toyota could simply recall the cars and do a software update the same way companies do TSB software updates.
Easy, simple, and incredibly cheaper compared to new floormats, new pedal installations, and footwell retrofits.
Most cars might throw a code, but then again they might not.
If it was a common occurence in the software, it should start to show up and software engineers should be able to track it down, and revise the software.....but this is not happening.......probably because they cannot replicate this issue.....perhaps because it does not exist.
Sorry, I'm not buying into the grand conspiracty where the NHTSB is in bed with Toyota for a grand cover-up that would destroy both of their reputations forever.
And im not saying toyota is in bed with the NTHSA, many just think that Toyota is trying to make this go away without saying they have a big issue. The NTHSA is for all practical purposes a joke, and unless they happen to have a rare occurrence happen to them while they had the vehicle would go along with nothing is wrong. Toyota should be happy your on their side.
Just found out that my friends mom just traded her Avalon due to the joke of a ziptie for the floor mat "fix" which is completely unacceptable and that it pulsed while driving
Last edited by fsttyms1; 11-30-2009 at 05:12 PM.
11-30-2009, 05:33 PM
#91
The sizzle in the Steak
So you dont think that them throwing this out there isnt a bit odd. Random vehicles accelerating on their own then stopping doesnt seem like a floor mat and them coming out with a software update seem like they are trying to cover it up. Its been stated in many articles that software glitches most likely wouldnt throw codes making it very very hard to trouble shoot.
And im not saying toyota is in bed with the NTHSA, many just think that Toyota is trying to make this go away without saying they have a big issue. The NTHSA is for all practical purposes a joke, and unless they happen to have a rare occurrence happen to them while they had the vehicle would go along with nothing is wrong. Toyota should be happy your on their side.
Just found out that my friends mom just traded her Avalon due to the joke of a ziptie for the floor mat "fix" which is completely unacceptable and that it pulsed while driving
And im not saying toyota is in bed with the NTHSA, many just think that Toyota is trying to make this go away without saying they have a big issue. The NTHSA is for all practical purposes a joke, and unless they happen to have a rare occurrence happen to them while they had the vehicle would go along with nothing is wrong. Toyota should be happy your on their side.
Just found out that my friends mom just traded her Avalon due to the joke of a ziptie for the floor mat "fix" which is completely unacceptable and that it pulsed while driving
That's an even bigger issue than a simple software fix...no?
What's the upside for Toyota and NHTSA to be in bed with each other trying to cover-up an easily fixable software issue?....meanwhile they spend tons of $$$ fixing and admitted footwell, floormat, pedal issue.
The conspiracy theory does not hold water. Until somebody can say why it makes sense for them to cover up a simple software fix versus new floormats, pedals and footwells, it's all tinfoil hat stuff.
Now if somebody came along and said the software bug cannot be fixed and/or that it effects twice as many cars as the recall, then their might be a reason to believe in the conspiracy.
In the end it's a safety issue. Toyota and the NHTSA have a reputation to uphold. There is too much to risk to try to cover up "something". I see no reason why Toyota and the NHTSA would lie, and put the customer at such a risk.
She traded in her Avalon because it pulsed while driving?
Perhaps she should have gotten the software upgrade?
The throttle systems on six-cylinder engines can cause the vehicle to "exhibit a surging during light throttle input at speeds between 38 mph and 42 mph," according to one of the bulletins that was published by Alldata, a vehicle information company. The solution provided to dealers was to reprogram the engine control module.
FWIW my old MINI Cooper "yo-yo'd" at certain RPM and gear shifts.(you might call it "pulse") It was a known issue. It took about a couple of Software updates for BMW to fix it.....They fixed it and it was fine.
Pulsing and full throttle acceleration for no reason are apples and oranges
11-30-2009, 07:16 PM
#92
Now, if the pulse surprises a driver and they apply full throttle instead of full brake, then you have a runaway car and the textbook "unintended acceleration" that we hear about. IMO, if they have a software fix to smooth out the throttle and a floor mat campaign, they have covered as many bases as possible...Without coming out and saying (as Audi did) that the problems are driver error.
12-01-2009, 08:37 AM
#93
Senior Moderator
How is a bad accel. pedal and footwell design not a big issue?
That's an even bigger issue than a simple software fix...no?
What's the upside for Toyota and NHTSA to be in bed with each other trying to cover-up an easily fixable software issue?....meanwhile they spend tons of $$$ fixing and admitted footwell, floormat, pedal issue.
The conspiracy theory does not hold water. Until somebody can say why it makes sense for them to cover up a simple software fix versus new floormats, pedals and footwells, it's all tinfoil hat stuff.
That's an even bigger issue than a simple software fix...no?
What's the upside for Toyota and NHTSA to be in bed with each other trying to cover-up an easily fixable software issue?....meanwhile they spend tons of $$$ fixing and admitted footwell, floormat, pedal issue.
The conspiracy theory does not hold water. Until somebody can say why it makes sense for them to cover up a simple software fix versus new floormats, pedals and footwells, it's all tinfoil hat stuff.
Makes sense from the stand point of them not wanting "oh we have cars that like to accelerate on their own. We dont know what the issue is but we are working on it. Lets try this out. If your car does happen to take off on you just apply the brakes, we now have a software update that will allow them to work"
12-01-2009, 11:31 AM
#94
The sizzle in the Steak
I NEVER said the pedal design wasnt a big issue. I did however say i dont believe its the cause of the problem. How is a software fix simple if they dont even know whats causing it. What if there is a glitch and it continues to happen even once toyota puts in this safety override update. It could still cause death and many accidents. They need to find the real cause.
Makes sense from the stand point of them not wanting "oh we have cars that like to accelerate on their own. We dont know what the issue is but we are working on it. Lets try this out. If your car does happen to take off on you just apply the brakes, we now have a software update that will allow them to work"
Makes sense from the stand point of them not wanting "oh we have cars that like to accelerate on their own. We dont know what the issue is but we are working on it. Lets try this out. If your car does happen to take off on you just apply the brakes, we now have a software update that will allow them to work"
It's still a conspiracy opinion.
Car makers tweak engine software all the time when there are bugs/problems.
If Toyota has a bug/problem, the fix is simple.
Again...where is the upside for Toyota and the NHTSA to sell their reputation down the river in a cover-up conspiracy?.....and spend hundreds of millions more repairing non-issue stuff, when a simple software tweak is all that is needed? Makes no sense.
12-01-2009, 07:38 PM
#95
Punk Rocker
The parts in bold are your opinions/belief. There is no proof or verifiable evidence to support them. You are entitled to your opinion...no doubt.
It's still a conspiracy opinion.
Car makers tweak engine software all the time when there are bugs/problems.
If Toyota has a bug/problem, the fix is simple.
Again...where is the upside for Toyota and the NHTSA to sell their reputation down the river in a cover-up conspiracy?.....and spend hundreds of millions more repairing non-issue stuff, when a simple software tweak is all that is needed? Makes no sense.
It's still a conspiracy opinion.
Car makers tweak engine software all the time when there are bugs/problems.
If Toyota has a bug/problem, the fix is simple.
Again...where is the upside for Toyota and the NHTSA to sell their reputation down the river in a cover-up conspiracy?.....and spend hundreds of millions more repairing non-issue stuff, when a simple software tweak is all that is needed? Makes no sense.
I also repeat that it is funny how alot of these supposed "victims" of runaway cars also just happen to have been involve in at-fault rear end collisions. Seems like a good enough excuse to me to cover up a brain fart: "Ugh officer, the damn Toyota just took off on me and I had no choice but to rear end that school bus!! Damn Toyotas!!"
12-01-2009, 08:01 PM
#96
Senior Moderator
The parts in bold are your opinions/belief. There is no proof or verifiable evidence to support them. You are entitled to your opinion...no doubt.
It's still a conspiracy opinion.
Car makers tweak engine software all the time when there are bugs/problems.
If Toyota has a bug/problem, the fix is simple.
Again...where is the upside for Toyota and the NHTSA to sell their reputation down the river in a cover-up conspiracy?.....and spend hundreds of millions more repairing non-issue stuff, when a simple software tweak is all that is needed? Makes no sense.
It's still a conspiracy opinion.
Car makers tweak engine software all the time when there are bugs/problems.
If Toyota has a bug/problem, the fix is simple.
Again...where is the upside for Toyota and the NHTSA to sell their reputation down the river in a cover-up conspiracy?.....and spend hundreds of millions more repairing non-issue stuff, when a simple software tweak is all that is needed? Makes no sense.
Again, i never said there was a conspiracy with the NTHSA/Toyota. Just that its kind of hard for a entity to say there is a problem when its so hard to actually get to happen. You will see it your way i will see it mine. There is not going ot be changing either one of us till something is resolved.
12-02-2009, 12:07 PM
#97
^^ They should just put a pressure sensor in the pedal itself. This way they'll know what pedal was being pressed when WOT happened.
01-14-2010, 04:55 PM
#98
Toyota Will Install Brake Override Systems to Prevent Runaway Vehicles
http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs..._blg=1,1545272
Toyota will install brake override systems on all Toyota, Lexus and Scion vehicles by year end as a way to prevent unintended acceleration.
The new system will be put in all vehicles globally, said Yoshi Inaba, president of Toyota North America Inc., in an interview at the Detroit auto show on Monday. The initiative follows a recall last fall of 3.8 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles in the United States to correct the problem.
Inaba said installation began this month on the Toyota Camry and Lexus ES 350 models, which account for the largest number of models included in the recall.
“We expect to have it standard on all vehicles by the end of the year,” he said.
Several instances of runaway Toyota and Lexus vehicles have been reported in the United States, causing injuries and some deaths. Toyota concluded that those cases were the result of floor mats becoming lodged under accelerator pedals. But the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has said the floor mats were not necessarily the only cause.
Toyota spokesman Mike Michels says the brake override software system will shift the engine to idle if it detects the driver is attempting to apply the brakes without success.
“If the pedal is stuck, tampered with, no matter what the pedal is doing, the engine will go into idle,” he said.
Toyota did not disclose the cost of installing the brake override system.
Toyota will install brake override systems on all Toyota, Lexus and Scion vehicles by year end as a way to prevent unintended acceleration.
The new system will be put in all vehicles globally, said Yoshi Inaba, president of Toyota North America Inc., in an interview at the Detroit auto show on Monday. The initiative follows a recall last fall of 3.8 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles in the United States to correct the problem.
Inaba said installation began this month on the Toyota Camry and Lexus ES 350 models, which account for the largest number of models included in the recall.
“We expect to have it standard on all vehicles by the end of the year,” he said.
Several instances of runaway Toyota and Lexus vehicles have been reported in the United States, causing injuries and some deaths. Toyota concluded that those cases were the result of floor mats becoming lodged under accelerator pedals. But the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has said the floor mats were not necessarily the only cause.
Toyota spokesman Mike Michels says the brake override software system will shift the engine to idle if it detects the driver is attempting to apply the brakes without success.
“If the pedal is stuck, tampered with, no matter what the pedal is doing, the engine will go into idle,” he said.
Toyota did not disclose the cost of installing the brake override system.
01-14-2010, 04:58 PM
#99
I took my wife's RX 350 in for service a couple of weeks ago and the service guy said that a recall for the gas pedal issue was coming soon, although he thought it would just involve shortening the pedal. Either the conspiracy theorists were right about a drive-by-wire throttle bug, or Toyota's just trying to cover all the bases at this point.
01-15-2010, 07:17 PM
#100
Safety Car
Update
In a rather bizarre instance, a driver reportedly began to experience unintended acceleration from his Toyota Avalon and was able to drive the car to a nearby dealer with the vehicle still displaying wide open throttle, despite having the floormat removed. Dealer techs witnessed the problem and have reportedly offered to repair the vehicle free of charge.
According to a report from The Safety Record, on December 29, 2009, the driver of a 2007 Toyota Avalon experienced a bizarre case of sudden and unintended acceleration while driving on the highway, just miles from a local Toyota dealer. The driver managed to switch the vehicle between Neutral and Drive multiple times, while en route to the dealer in order to show the dealer the problem as it was still occurring.
The driver was able to reach the dealer, place the vehicle into neutral, and allow it to continue operating at wide open throttle. The dealer sent out a tech who verified that the floor mat was removed, and pushing the gas pedal had no effect on the acceleration. The dealer was unable to stop the wide open throttle and was forced to shut the vehicle off.
This incident was apparently not the first for the driver, either, who had been to the dealer before about the problem. The first time the unintended acceleration occurred, the driver was able to slow the vehicle with the brakes and switch the vehicle into neutral – where the engine continued to hit maximum rpms. At the time of the first incident, dealer diagnostics revealed no problems in the computer.
The dealer eventually offered to replace the throttle body, accelerator pedal and associated sensors free of charge for the driver after the second incident.
This incident may prove to be a crucial step in finding the true cause of the many reported cases of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles. Toyota began its largest-ever recall in 2009 to replace the floor mats and accelerator pedals in over 3.8 million vehicles that could experience unintended acceleration. Critics and survivors of unintended acceleration cases argued that the problem was not a result of the floor mats or accelerator pedals, but instead insist that the computer controlling the acceleration of the vehicle is at fault.
The Safety Record also reported on a one-car crash that occurred in Dallas, Texas the day after Christmas involving a Toyota Avalon. According to the accident report, the vehicle inexplicably left the road and ended up crashing through a fence, and landing upside down in a pond – killing all four occupants. The floor mats were found in the trunk of the car – ruling out the possibility of the floor mat causing the accident.
The official cause of the Dallas crash has not yet been determined.
According to a report from The Safety Record, on December 29, 2009, the driver of a 2007 Toyota Avalon experienced a bizarre case of sudden and unintended acceleration while driving on the highway, just miles from a local Toyota dealer. The driver managed to switch the vehicle between Neutral and Drive multiple times, while en route to the dealer in order to show the dealer the problem as it was still occurring.
The driver was able to reach the dealer, place the vehicle into neutral, and allow it to continue operating at wide open throttle. The dealer sent out a tech who verified that the floor mat was removed, and pushing the gas pedal had no effect on the acceleration. The dealer was unable to stop the wide open throttle and was forced to shut the vehicle off.
This incident was apparently not the first for the driver, either, who had been to the dealer before about the problem. The first time the unintended acceleration occurred, the driver was able to slow the vehicle with the brakes and switch the vehicle into neutral – where the engine continued to hit maximum rpms. At the time of the first incident, dealer diagnostics revealed no problems in the computer.
The dealer eventually offered to replace the throttle body, accelerator pedal and associated sensors free of charge for the driver after the second incident.
This incident may prove to be a crucial step in finding the true cause of the many reported cases of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles. Toyota began its largest-ever recall in 2009 to replace the floor mats and accelerator pedals in over 3.8 million vehicles that could experience unintended acceleration. Critics and survivors of unintended acceleration cases argued that the problem was not a result of the floor mats or accelerator pedals, but instead insist that the computer controlling the acceleration of the vehicle is at fault.
The Safety Record also reported on a one-car crash that occurred in Dallas, Texas the day after Christmas involving a Toyota Avalon. According to the accident report, the vehicle inexplicably left the road and ended up crashing through a fence, and landing upside down in a pond – killing all four occupants. The floor mats were found in the trunk of the car – ruling out the possibility of the floor mat causing the accident.
The official cause of the Dallas crash has not yet been determined.
01-15-2010, 10:53 PM
#101
Senior Moderator
Interesting, especially to all those that said it was the floor mat.
Oh, and i think i would tell them i want a new motor as well if it spent that much time without load at max rpm bouncing off the revlimiter.
Oh, and i think i would tell them i want a new motor as well if it spent that much time without load at max rpm bouncing off the revlimiter.
01-21-2010, 05:37 PM
#102
2.3 Million More Toyotas Recalled
http://money.cnn.com/2010/01/21/auto...dex.htm?hpt=T2
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Toyota Motor Sales USA is recalling 2.3 million vehicles to correct a problem that could cause the vehicles' gas pedals to stick.
This new recall is separate from an on-going recall of 4.2 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles to correct a problem in which the pedals could become stuck under a loose floormat.
This new recall is to correct a situation in which the gas pedal could stick without the presence of a floor mat.
"Our investigation indicates that there is a possibility that certain accelerator pedal mechanisms may, in rare instances, mechanically stick in a partially depressed position or return slowly to the idle position," Toyota USA group vice president Irv Miller said in a statement.
The situation is rare, according to Toyota, but can occur when accelerator pedal mechanisms become worn. The problem will usually develop gradually, Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said. The pedal may become harder to press and may become slower to return when released. In the worst cases, it may become stuck in a partially depressed position.
"Toyota is working quickly to prepare a correction remedy," the automaker said in its announcement.
Owners will be notified when a remedy is available. In the meantime, they can continue driving their cars
(gee, thanks!), Toyota spokesman John Hanson said. The carmaker wants to make drivers aware of the potential problem and of what they should do if it arisies, he said.
Drivers should not pump the brakes as this can deplete the brakes' power assist. In the event the pedal becomes stuck, the vehicle can be brought under control with firm and steady application of the brakes, the automaker said.
The vehicle should then be driven to the nearest safe location, shut off, and a Toyota dealer should be called for assistance.
The vehicles covered under the recall are:
2009-2010 Toyota Rav4, Corolla, Matrix, 2005-2010 Avalon, 2008-2010 Camry, 2010 Highlander, 2007-2010 Tundra and 2008-2010 Sequoia..
The Camry Hybrid is not included in the recall.
Toyota owners with questions should call Toyota's customer service line at 800-331-4331.
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Toyota Motor Sales USA is recalling 2.3 million vehicles to correct a problem that could cause the vehicles' gas pedals to stick.
This new recall is separate from an on-going recall of 4.2 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles to correct a problem in which the pedals could become stuck under a loose floormat.
This new recall is to correct a situation in which the gas pedal could stick without the presence of a floor mat.
"Our investigation indicates that there is a possibility that certain accelerator pedal mechanisms may, in rare instances, mechanically stick in a partially depressed position or return slowly to the idle position," Toyota USA group vice president Irv Miller said in a statement.
The situation is rare, according to Toyota, but can occur when accelerator pedal mechanisms become worn. The problem will usually develop gradually, Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said. The pedal may become harder to press and may become slower to return when released. In the worst cases, it may become stuck in a partially depressed position.
"Toyota is working quickly to prepare a correction remedy," the automaker said in its announcement.
Owners will be notified when a remedy is available. In the meantime, they can continue driving their cars
(gee, thanks!), Toyota spokesman John Hanson said. The carmaker wants to make drivers aware of the potential problem and of what they should do if it arisies, he said.Drivers should not pump the brakes as this can deplete the brakes' power assist. In the event the pedal becomes stuck, the vehicle can be brought under control with firm and steady application of the brakes, the automaker said.
The vehicle should then be driven to the nearest safe location, shut off, and a Toyota dealer should be called for assistance.
The vehicles covered under the recall are:
2009-2010 Toyota Rav4, Corolla, Matrix, 2005-2010 Avalon, 2008-2010 Camry, 2010 Highlander, 2007-2010 Tundra and 2008-2010 Sequoia..
The Camry Hybrid is not included in the recall.
Toyota owners with questions should call Toyota's customer service line at 800-331-4331.
01-21-2010, 09:21 PM
#103
Senior Moderator
So do the nay sayers still think there isnt a problem? (that they are still not fully divulging)
Toyota needs to be brought to the cleaners for trying to cover this crap up and continue to.
Toyota needs to be brought to the cleaners for trying to cover this crap up and continue to.
01-22-2010, 10:35 AM
#104
The sizzle in the Steak
The recall back in November stated:
Sounds like it's been a mechanical pedal design issue all along, not software.
The automaker said that "the shape of the accelerator pedal will be reconfigured to address the risk of floor mat entrapment." Floor pads of the vehicles will also be changed.
01-22-2010, 10:43 AM
#105
Senior Moderator
I don't understand why no Lexus vehicles are involved in the recall, when owners of IS and ES vehicles have been having problems with this as well. 
I still have the feeling they are covering something up.
I still have the feeling they are covering something up.
01-22-2010, 11:06 AM
#106
Senior Moderator
But the lexus's have been experiencing the same thing even though they arent under the recall and toyota says they have a different pedal. I still think there is more to it.
01-22-2010, 11:44 AM
#107
The sizzle in the Steak
^^ Who's to say a Lexus recall isn't forthcoming?
01-22-2010, 01:06 PM
#108
Senior Moderator
01-22-2010, 01:20 PM
#109
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
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01-22-2010, 01:42 PM
#110
My guess is that they still can't pinpoint the exact cause so they're trying to cover all the bases (and their asses) by removing floor mats, shortening gas pedals and devising brake override systems. I wouldn't exactly call that a conspiracy - I think if they knew the real problem they would just come out and say/fix it. It just seems like it's really hard to reproduce. Hopefully the dude who recently managed to get his car to the dealership with a wide open throttle will help them figure it out.
01-22-2010, 02:04 PM
#111
The sizzle in the Steak
Toyota's PRELIMINARY findings were regarding the floor mat issue.
When it came time to recall the cars back in November, they modified the pedals and floor pan/mat areas.
It's issues of floor mats (but not in all cars) and pedal designs.
The software throttle by wire conspiracy is still a conspiracy.
It has been and still is a "mechanical" issue not electrical/software.
01-22-2010, 02:16 PM
#112
^ You sure about that?
I don't think anything can be ruled out just yet.
The driver was able to reach the dealer, place the vehicle into neutral, and allow it to continue operating at wide open throttle. The dealer sent out a tech who verified that the floor mat was removed, and pushing the gas pedal had no effect on the acceleration. The dealer was unable to stop the wide open throttle and was forced to shut the vehicle off.
01-22-2010, 04:21 PM
#113
The sizzle in the Steak
^^ Has that story been substantiated yet?
It's a very vague story/report.
It's a very vague story/report.
01-22-2010, 05:31 PM
#114
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Perhaps the Lexus recall might be a bit different and still in process.
Toyota's PRELIMINARY findings were regarding the floor mat issue.
When it came time to recall the cars back in November, they modified the pedals and floor pan/mat areas.
It's issues of floor mats (but not in all cars) and pedal designs.
The software throttle by wire conspiracy is still a conspiracy.
It has been and still is a "mechanical" issue not electrical/software.
Toyota's PRELIMINARY findings were regarding the floor mat issue.
When it came time to recall the cars back in November, they modified the pedals and floor pan/mat areas.
It's issues of floor mats (but not in all cars) and pedal designs.
The software throttle by wire conspiracy is still a conspiracy.
It has been and still is a "mechanical" issue not electrical/software.
And as it seems, yes there is a problem...no its not wide spread.
01-22-2010, 05:56 PM
#115
The sizzle in the Steak
Toyota and NHTSB say it's floor mats, pedal design, floor pan/pad issues.
Hence the recalls for all of the above.
Conspiracy theorist claim Toyota and NHTSB know there is a software issue in the drive-by-wire, and Toyota can't and/or will not fix it.
01-22-2010, 06:23 PM
#116
The Third Ball
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But who knows. Could be, could be something else.
Only Toyota really knows.
01-22-2010, 07:43 PM
#117
I'm the Firestarter
http://money.cnn.com/2010/01/21/auto...dex.htm?hpt=T2
Drivers should not pump the brakes as this can deplete the brakes' power assist. In the event the pedal becomes stuck, the vehicle can be brought under control with firm and steady application of the brakes, the automaker said.
Drivers should not pump the brakes as this can deplete the brakes' power assist. In the event the pedal becomes stuck, the vehicle can be brought under control with firm and steady application of the brakes, the automaker said.
01-23-2010, 04:09 AM
#118
Honda Fanboy
01-25-2010, 09:46 AM
#119
Senior Moderator
01-25-2010, 10:50 AM
#120
The sizzle in the Steak
Toyota says it knew there were problems with accelerator-pedal assemblies...
Toyota says it knew there were problems with accelerator-pedal assemblies from supplier CTS late last year, but not enough to warrant a recall.
The automaker says it hurriedly announced last Thursday a planned recall of 2.3 million Toyotas, back to 2005 models, because the defect trend had picked up. "The quickness that this all came together is one reason why I don't have numbers" of complaints, the automaker's U.S. safety spokesman, John Hanson, says. "And why we don't have a fix."
The recall includes an unspecified number of 2009-10 Pontiac Vibes, designed and built by Toyota for General Motors' now- discontinued Pontiac brand. Vibe is similar to the Toyota Matrix that's part of the recall.
Toyota did not identify Vibe in its announcement of the recall. GM made no announcement, but confirmed Vibe is included.
GM spokesman Alan Adler says: "We do not typically do pre-recall announcements. We tend to wait until there is something that can be done," before notifying owners.
Hanson has said it could be weeks before Toyota determines a remedy and gets it approved by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).
Toyota (TM) says it has no direct reports of injuries or deaths. But the day Toyota announced the recall, ABC News broadcast a report, prepared before the recall announcement, linking the problem to four deaths (http://abcnews.go.com/blotter).
The car company says that the latest sticking-throttle recall is separate from one it announced in November. That one involved 4.3 million Toyota and Lexus models. Their gas pedals might get caught under floor mats and send the cars out of control.
That problem is linked to the death of off-duty California Highway Patrolman Mark Saylor and three family members Aug. 28.
"I think it's questionable" whether the two recalls are separate, says Jesse Toprak, vice president of industry trends for TrueCar.com, an auto-pricing and industry-tracking site.
Toyota says 1.7 million vehicles are affected by both recalls. Toprak notes that Toyota first identified the previous recall as a floor mat issue, then said the accelerator pedals themselves were partly at fault. Now, most vehicles in the sticking-throttle recall announced Thursday also are involved in the November recall.
"Their biggest error was not to do a deep dive into the issue last year," Toprak says.
Toyota says the potentially faulty pedals came from a CTS facility in Streetsville, Ontario. CTS has not returned calls asking for comment.
Toyota says drivers whose throttles stick open should shift into neutral, pull off the road and call a dealer. Dealers have been told to help on a "case-by-case basis," until Toyota can fix the problem.
Adler says GM dealers would do so, too. He says that no Vibe owners have reported the problem. Adler says the recall repairs will be made by GM's Buick and GMC dealers.
Toyota won't say how much leeway dealers have — whether, for example, they can install new pedal assemblies, or provide long-term loaner cars until there is a recall remedy.
Toyota says the problem appears to be due to premature wear of some mechanical parts in the CTS throttle assemblies. Hanson says that means new vehicles should be risk-free, at least long enough for Toyota to come up with a fix.
Throttle-pedal assemblies from Toyota's other supplier, Denso, are not all interchangeable, eliminating that as a quick-fix solution, Toyota says.
CTS also supplies throttle assemblies to Honda, Nissan and Mitsubishi. Those companies say their designs are different and pose no risk of sticking open.
Hanson says the first symptom of the latest throttle problem is when the gas pedal feels rough, instead of smooth, when the driver presses down. The next stage: The throttle pedal doesn't return promptly when the driver lets off. Finally, the throttle sticks open even after the driver's foot is removed.
Hanson says drivers should contact dealers if they experience the first step and not wait for the gas pedal to begin working sluggishly. "We don't want that vehicle on the road, and we want to keep that owner mobile. We'll do whatever we can on a case-by-case basis," Hanson says.
Toyota continues selling models involved in the recall, expecting that they work fine because they are new and the throttles don't seem to begin sticking until the vehicle ages, Hanson says.
The automaker says it hurriedly announced last Thursday a planned recall of 2.3 million Toyotas, back to 2005 models, because the defect trend had picked up. "The quickness that this all came together is one reason why I don't have numbers" of complaints, the automaker's U.S. safety spokesman, John Hanson, says. "And why we don't have a fix."
The recall includes an unspecified number of 2009-10 Pontiac Vibes, designed and built by Toyota for General Motors' now- discontinued Pontiac brand. Vibe is similar to the Toyota Matrix that's part of the recall.
Toyota did not identify Vibe in its announcement of the recall. GM made no announcement, but confirmed Vibe is included.
GM spokesman Alan Adler says: "We do not typically do pre-recall announcements. We tend to wait until there is something that can be done," before notifying owners.
Hanson has said it could be weeks before Toyota determines a remedy and gets it approved by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).
Toyota (TM) says it has no direct reports of injuries or deaths. But the day Toyota announced the recall, ABC News broadcast a report, prepared before the recall announcement, linking the problem to four deaths (http://abcnews.go.com/blotter).
The car company says that the latest sticking-throttle recall is separate from one it announced in November. That one involved 4.3 million Toyota and Lexus models. Their gas pedals might get caught under floor mats and send the cars out of control.
That problem is linked to the death of off-duty California Highway Patrolman Mark Saylor and three family members Aug. 28.
"I think it's questionable" whether the two recalls are separate, says Jesse Toprak, vice president of industry trends for TrueCar.com, an auto-pricing and industry-tracking site.
Toyota says 1.7 million vehicles are affected by both recalls. Toprak notes that Toyota first identified the previous recall as a floor mat issue, then said the accelerator pedals themselves were partly at fault. Now, most vehicles in the sticking-throttle recall announced Thursday also are involved in the November recall.
"Their biggest error was not to do a deep dive into the issue last year," Toprak says.
Toyota says the potentially faulty pedals came from a CTS facility in Streetsville, Ontario. CTS has not returned calls asking for comment.
Toyota says drivers whose throttles stick open should shift into neutral, pull off the road and call a dealer. Dealers have been told to help on a "case-by-case basis," until Toyota can fix the problem.
Adler says GM dealers would do so, too. He says that no Vibe owners have reported the problem. Adler says the recall repairs will be made by GM's Buick and GMC dealers.
Toyota won't say how much leeway dealers have — whether, for example, they can install new pedal assemblies, or provide long-term loaner cars until there is a recall remedy.
Toyota says the problem appears to be due to premature wear of some mechanical parts in the CTS throttle assemblies. Hanson says that means new vehicles should be risk-free, at least long enough for Toyota to come up with a fix.
Throttle-pedal assemblies from Toyota's other supplier, Denso, are not all interchangeable, eliminating that as a quick-fix solution, Toyota says.
CTS also supplies throttle assemblies to Honda, Nissan and Mitsubishi. Those companies say their designs are different and pose no risk of sticking open.
Hanson says the first symptom of the latest throttle problem is when the gas pedal feels rough, instead of smooth, when the driver presses down. The next stage: The throttle pedal doesn't return promptly when the driver lets off. Finally, the throttle sticks open even after the driver's foot is removed.
Hanson says drivers should contact dealers if they experience the first step and not wait for the gas pedal to begin working sluggishly. "We don't want that vehicle on the road, and we want to keep that owner mobile. We'll do whatever we can on a case-by-case basis," Hanson says.
Toyota continues selling models involved in the recall, expecting that they work fine because they are new and the throttles don't seem to begin sticking until the vehicle ages, Hanson says.
It's mechanical....not software.