I have mentioned stuff along these lines a few times. Around here, way more common to see a Model S than a 5-series, E-Class, or an A6... combined.

 

i was under impression that Model X and Model S has separate production line. Both these models are in state of permanent decline and becoming insignificant.
while Honda and Toyota SUVs are globally booming. and Honda/Acura hasnt even started plug in SUVs.

 

Not sure if your beef is with BEV in general or Tesla in particular. Since you stated Norway as an example (thank you for that), you are already aware that where is the trend in developed nations going towards. ICE cars will be history soon in Norway since the BEVs have acquired critical mass in sales.
Having said that, the situation in smaller European nations may not be fully applicable elsewhere too.
You can always look at a cup as half full or half empty.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug...cles_in_Norway

Here is an excerpt from the BEV situation in Norway.
“Most BEV owners (71%) also own an ICEV, 4% a PHEV, and 4% more than one BEV. The remaining 21% only have one BEV. 46% of PHEV owners and 48% of ICEV owners belong to single vehicle household. The most multipurpose BEV, Tesla Model S, is twice as common in single BEV households as in households also owning ICEVs, and four times as common in households owning several BEVs.[21]”

This means that people who use Model S in Norway prefer to use it as their only car, but those owning other BEVs such as Nissan Leaf (the best seller over there) frequently need another ICE car for longer trips (guess due to their less range).
I’m also not sure how are the import duties for US built vehicles in Norway. They always affect the market. May be the European manufacturing at GF4 will turn things around for Tesla.

 

I am only pointing out that Model 3 sales increase lead to collapse in sales of Model S and Model X. I cannot find any market where Model 3/S/X sales increasing same time. why would Model Y bring additional customers over top of Model 3?. there is no evidence of real additional innovation.
is Toyota Rav4 sales impact Toyota 4Runner or Highlander?
[quote]
https://seekingalpha.com/article/431...mates-not-good
I will caution, however, that a majority of the Netherlands Model 3's being registered now are the cheapest variant, the SR+, so that will hurt average selling prices and perhaps margins as well.

 

You could have asked the same thing at Acura about 14 years ago with the RDX (over the TSX).

 

A good sign that there's no demand for a Tesla is that they increase their prices.

The Model Y is more practical than the 3 it has much more storage, a powered liftgate, collaspable seats. It's an SUV, it has all the capabilities of an SUV that most people prefer over a car. Many people are holding off on getting a Model 3 because the Model Y is more functional. My friend had a reservation for the 3 once I told him about the Y he cancelled his 3 reservation and switched to a Y reservation when it was announced.

I think the Y will definitely take sales from the X, and the 3, and maybe a little from the S as well. And BMW, Mercedes, and Audi, just like the 3 did

 

Not right comparison once you understand technicalities and price difference adjusted for inflation.
Model 3 AWD is $50K car. Model Y will exceed that price and range constrained at 300 mile. maximum 66 cubic foot.
while CRV is 76 cubic feet with much shorter foot print. Honda CRV hybrid will be atleast $15k cheaper comparably equiped. dealor lot discounts on top of that.

 

Count me in. I’ve placed an order for Model Y as well. I’ve never had a BEV before but for some reason I had decided that Model 3 wouldn’t cut it for me, but the Y apparently fits in perfectly for my needs (will likely replace the RDX I have, whenever it arrives).

 

Exactly as you said pal, not a right comparison at all. BMW X3 / GLC buyers are not going to cross shop it with CRV hybrid however you spin it. Guess you didn’t count for the drive feel factor (and snob value too).
Model Y is competing on a different level than bargain base ICE vehicles.

 

From what you state you are assuming that there are only a limited number of people willing to buy BEVs and the market is so saturated that there is no space for a new SUV or additional models without cannibalizing the existing market, right...? In that case it is worse news for newer players wanting to introduce BEV to the market and almost all automakers have some plans for that with increasing likelihood. So don’t you see that your reasoning is flawed somewhere...?

 

Can the CRV seat 7?

Why not compare it to the Ford Econoline while you're at it? Model Y can't compare to it in regards to range, passengers, and storage capacity. Surely BMW and Benz SUV owners must shopping the Econoline as well...

 

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-auto...-barrier-lane/

Another cool factor for Tesla is its continuous improvement of auto pilot capability. Okay I get that this is only an adaptive cruise with lane control and not a full self driving tool, but nevertheless it is impressive.
From what I know the Cadillac “supercruise” which the consumer reports rates higher than Tesla autopilot has capability only within defined interstate highway zones. It doesn’t adapt to new navigation patterns or construction lane changes but the Tesla autopilot is dynamic and evolving even in your existing car.

 

Model Y is more priced like MDX and RX hybrids. and MDX has really small turn radius. I am sure newer MDX will be better. you haven't test drive Model Y and know practically nothing about its practical range, refinement , turn radius , standard wheel size.
. Toyota and Honda hybrids are routinely cross shopped against BMW and MB in EU and Asia. there is seven seater CRV in those markets but not suitable for US market.

 

market is isn't going up that's whey in California is now declining. I am sure BEV sales will slowly increase with time but not enough to make a sustainable manufacturer.
both Opel and Fiat Chrysler merged with French.

 

Dude... you can't dip it both ways. YOU suggested earlier that Model Y is going to be an exact copy of Model 3 (which is fine enough for me), not don't claim that Y is going to be something out of another planet. MDX is a dedicated three row SUV and the buyer base will be slightly different.
They are merging since they all saw the writing on the wall. ..and it's not good.

 

Which of these vehicles from Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, etc gets free over the air updates that adds cool new features on almost a monthly basis? Which one of them has a 15in widescreen that you can watch Netflix, Youtube, HBOGo, Hulu, etc from? Which of these cars got updates over the past year to improve their performance by 10%, for free? Which one of them has a dog mode that keeps the AC running while you leave your dog in the car. You're over here talking about fucking turning radius, while Tesla owners are connecting their PS4/Xbone controller to their car and playing Cuphead. GTFO

 

I only said interior look similar . I did not said anything about drive or turn radius as I don't know anything about its weight, wheel base and tire/rim combo. it is still 6 month to year away. if they put 7 seater as standard on model Y. it will make it more complicated and heavy. The front windscreen seem huge in Model Y. more chance of need expensive replacement. I have seen range figure of 300 mile.

They are merging until French leader ship. do you think Elon Musk upto challenge French?

 

Okay I agree with you that I don't know much about the Y. The factors which you seem to emphasize seem to be non issues to me (tire size, wheel base, tuning radius, rims, etc). As long as it gets the advertised range, I'm fine with it. I don't live in a congested city where every little space helps. Where I live, most people drive huge pick ups .... Windscreen is similar to Model 3 where the size doesn't seem like a big deal - in fact people love the panoramic roofs which you get for free. In most premium cars that is a $1000-2000 upgrade.

Elon vs French... This is getting hilarious. ..... how old are you? Your responses seem to make Rockyboy look mature.
As far as I know Elon has challenged everyone in the field he operates. Oil industry / cartel, Dealership lobby, All major automakers (Domestic and foreign), Space industry (including Russia), and he is winning. Anything else.....? .

 

Tesla hasn't produced real profits and invest in real R&D. French are so far ahead in management and real engineering French are fully commited to BEV now

the screen size is not overhelming.

 

LMAO you ignored all of my points and posted a pic of Renault that looks like they took a shitty $99 WebOS tablet and put it on the dash. Does it get free updates? Does it play Netflix and Youtube? Does it play video games? Does it have Dog mode? Does it have instant torque acceleration?

 

Renault is half priced with 250 mile range and much shorter and lighter vehicle on small rims for city driving. your ignoring that now French battery technology will go into other Premium European auto makers and even Chinese (they removed the local subsidy). Elon cannot dance around it he will face real engineering and management talent from French.

Add Opel and Fiat-Chrysler to this group. and than Renault-Samsung vehicles.

ST micro hardware.

Quote:

https://www.st.com/content/st_com/en...tml/p3832.html

 

Here's some the of the new capabilities that just came out in the free update yesterday. Autopilot can now detect stop lights, stop signs, road markers like bike lanes and railroad crossing signs, even trash cans. They've also added the ability to use natural language to control the car, added the ability to read and send texts, and while other cars have similar features none of them can add features for free with an over the air update. There's a CAMP mode that allows you to maintain airflow, temperature, interior lighting, as well as play music, and power devices for hours on end while the car is parked and the motor isn't on. SSFTSX, please try and find me another vehicle on the market that can do all of this?






P.s. oh and you can watch Twitch now, plus there's 2 new free games to play, and a music making app. But what's its turn radius, amiright?

 

your ignoring the fundamental facts that interiors of Tesla are simply not upscale for the price paid. they are too heavy, oversize rims with long turn radius lots of tire and wind noise. All other auto makers are creating premium brands like Volvo Polester.
. this MDX interior.

 

That range is expected to be 186 miles under real-world driving conditions and goes 0-60 in over 13 seconds. Tesla leads the industry with their core efficiency, their drivetrain is more efficient than everyone else, and their batteries have the highest energy density, and they make them at a cheaper price. Tesla's batteries will get about 10% cheaper, and more at least 20% energy dense (with a path to double their energy density) with the Maxwell dry battery electrode technology they purchased this year.



The only way these cars can compete with Tesla on Wh/mile is by making their cars very small and as light as possible, to hide the fact that their powertrain efficiency is horrible. Even still the base Model 3 is 15% more efficient (wh/mile) even thought it weighs 300lbs more, hence why it's core efficiency rating is much better. I don't think Tesla needs to worry about the Zoe.

 

That interior looks ugly. Leather isn't cool anymore my dude. That's some boomer shit. Millenials want vegan leather. They're heavy but still faster and more efficient than almost any other car out there. 18in rims are oversized!? No one's not buying a Tesla because of their fucking turning radius! Have you driven a Tesla? you strike me as someone that has never experienced the instant torque of an EV and don't understand why anyone would want one because you haven't experienced it for yourself.

 

I also take it you couldn't find another vehicle with all of those features that Tesla owners just got for free. What other vehicles continually get better and more capable over time with free updates?

 

Many people who purchased cars want to add third party dash cams with associated wiring issues. All Tesla cars come with inbuilt recording via the available cameras which can be set up with sentry mode while parked too. I haven’t seen any other car with such OEM set up.

 

The max charge rate of the Renault Zoe "Tesla Killer" is 50kw, the Model 3/Y is 250kw. Bruh

 

Faster charging rates make battery life less. that's why Renault only concentrate on low cost home electricity with slow charge. as I said Renult and French are now making global industrial alliance for future under many brands. it is just start and once French enters Elan has to move aside.
As I said once expert review it on same roads and same conditions. it is far below premium cars in refinement and comfort that's why I am comparing it to Renault Zoe.
In updated Renault Zoe. they have worked on sound proofing. the have battery rental option. Just buy car without battery.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review...50-2019-review
Renault claims the soundproofing has also been substantially improved, and while some road noise did permeate at high speeds, the car does offer the quiet, engine-noise-free cruising many EV buyers enjoy
Both models feature a standard AC charging port, capable of charging at up to 22kWh, and the cost includes a 7kWh wallbox home charger. A 50kWh CCS DC charging port, which can add 90 miles of range in 30 minutes, is a £750 option in the UK on medium and higher trims

 

You’re not supposed to Supercharge a Tesla every day, though some do and the effect on the battery isn’t as bad as you’d think, most Tesla’s are charged at home but when you’re on a long road trip speed matters, a lot. The model 3 gets 90 miles of range in 5 minutes not 30. Also road noise has been improved a lot on the newer ones


You do realize the Model 3 continues to win car of the year despite all these horrible flaws like turning radius and road noise. Maybe these things aren’t as important to most people are you make them out to be

 

As I said its one time hype in each market.. Now look at November 2019 Norway sales. Renault Group LEAF is number 2 and that without next generation French battery technology.
Elan can make all the claims . it is not sustainable. he does not have deep R&D into next level. he is using what is available to him.

Look at December Swedish sale. Renault-Mitsubishi-Nissan group is 2nd and third. What will Elan do once next generation battery technology developed by French.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/05...n-in-november/

 

It's well known that European public and auto journalists always prefer Euro brands to anything else. Almost all of their "independent reviews" reflect that. So take all recommendations with a pinch of salt if coming from the other side of pond. I have lived there too for several years and know it first hand.
What matters for you is whether YOU are satisfied with the features and performance of the car YOU purchased and for the price YOU paid. It seems like EVs are not in the future of SSTSX which is fine. You can continue to buy fossil fuel cars and enjoy the "savings" for your lifetime, or continue to enrich the Europeans and other foreigners (if that's what's important to you).

 

And BTW this is one of the several tactics used by traditional dealerships of legacy automakers, where they try to fool the system into believing that they have improved sales.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/ar...e?srnd=opinion

The auto industry’s yuletide gift to investors turns out to be another dent in its credibility. Family-controlled BMW AG has a reputation for being run conservatively and yet it’s become the subject of an investigation by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission into how it accounts for U.S. sales. It’s getting harder and harder to rely on numbers provided by the auto industry, whether we’re talking emissions figures or financial performance.

The alleged practices are unlikely to have yielded seismic benefits to the Germany luxury car giant. Dealers may have registered cars as sold when the vehicles were still on the forecourt, according to the Wall Street Journal. The possible scenario is that retailers sold cars to themselves, thereby inflating BMW’s monthly sales figures, then marketed them as nearly new at a discount. The vehicles would technically be second-hand but have limited mileage, having been used as demonstrators or loan cars for customers of the service department.

BMW said it had been contacted by the SEC and would cooperate fully.

There are limits to how many vehicles a dealer can “sell” in this way. So even if malpractice is proven, it’s questionable whether it would have plumped up the carmaker’s sales volumes that much. What’s more, history suggests the financial impact of the regulatory response could be muted. Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV paid just $40 million to settle similar charges from the SEC that it misled investors about its monthly U.S. sales figures.

But the fact remains that there’s sometimes a difference between what a reasonable person might understand as a “car sale” — a customer buying a car from a retailer — and what the manufacturers and dealers call a car sale. That leaves investors in the dark.

The urge to demonstrate leadership of the U.S. market is intense because it brings marketing bragging rights, which might explain some of the pressure to increase sales figures. BMW and Mercedes fight it out every year for the largest premium automaker crown.

Clearly this development is not what BMW needs. It may not have been at the center of the industry’s recent emissions and financial scandals, but it’s not been immune and investors are concerned that the carmaker’s range is getting tired and that it needs to accelerate its electric vehicle program.

Meanwhile, the alleged episode adds to the impression that this is a cheating industry, with consumers and investors regularly hoodwinked. That will probably increase the carmakers’ cost of capital, which will depress share prices. In turn, that will make companies feel they need to do more to show they are performing on revenue metrics. And so it goes on. Stiffer penalties might force the industry into financial reporting that means what it says, and break the cycle.

 

Bro WTF are you on!? You're talking to the wrong person, your bs isn't going to work on me. I follow this shit too closely, in case you haven't noticed. Sales are down in in Sweden and Norway because Tesla is focusing deliveries in the Netherlands because their EV incentives expire at the end of the year. Tesla did the same thing with the US. Right now they're focusing on US and Netherland deliveries so that as many customers as possible can qualify for their respective tax credits.

You're bragging about the Zoe delivering 113 vehicles meanwhile the Model 3 is next door delivering 8000 in less than a month, pull your head out of your ass and look at the whole picture. Stop cherrypicking. This shit doesn't work on me.

Also I've already debunked your French battery BS, the Tesla Model 3 is significantly more efficient than the Renault. There's is no other battery that gets 250Wh/kg energy density like the Tesla 2170 battery cell, AFAIK their efficiency at the battery pack level is industry leading as well. They're planning a Battery Investor day in Q1 2020 to announce their next gen batteries. They've purchased a couple companies (Maxwell, and Hibar) which will allow them to start manufacturing their own batteries. Maxwell has demonstrated manufacturing improvements that allows Tesla to make batteries with 300Wh/kg energy density with a pathway to 500Wh/kg, and the the manufacturing improvements make the batteries cheaper to make.




Some good videos on why Tesla bought Maxwell


TL;DW They bought Maxwell for the dry cell battery tech. Tesla has been working with them and has confirmed that they get 300wh/kg from these batteries, compared to the 250 they get now. They're also cheaper to make since wet batteries have to be dried in giant ovens, dry cells don't they're already dry. So that saves on space since they don't need the ovens, save on cost since they don't need to power the ovens, and save on time since the batteries don't need to be baked. Tesla already had the best batteries but now they are going to be about 20% better, and cheaper.

Tesla has been on the cutting edge of battery tech for at least a decade, they've partnered with industry leading battery experts, they regularly test out the latest battery improvements, no other company is as invested in improving battery tech than Tesla. Samsung, LG, Renault, all have other revenue streams that don't rely solely on battery tech. Tesla lives and dies on having the best battery tech and they've got a decade lead on these other companies that are just now finally starting to get interested in battery tech. Unfortunately for them Tesla is able to attract all of the industries top talent. Engineers want to work for Tesla so they get to pick the best talent while everyone else gets the leftovers. This matters, the chances that Renault has some amazing battery tech with less skilled and driven employees is lower than Tesla pulling it off.






Renault doesn't even make the Top 30 list. Tesla's closest competitor is 16th, yikes! This matters.

 

European Auto reviews have given 4 or 5 stars most of time to Tesla. but it does not change the fact that Model 3 simply isn't upto the mark in refinement or interior quality at price.
Also all these glowing reviews not help in sales when there are no subsidies in a particular country. Model X and Model S practically disappeared from sales chart.
I have already shown Q3 US sales decline. It has nothing to do with my preference for gasoline vs BEV. it is objective assessment as French are entering this business in big way.

 

Quote:

Also I've already debunked your French battery BS, the Tesla Model 3 is significantly more efficient than the Renault. There's is no other battery that gets 250Wh/kg energy density like the Tesla 2170 battery cell,

I didnot said French are better than Tesla currently. They just start now with governmet funding that will built next generation batteries for EU. They have started the most generous credit system and scrapage scheme for electric cars now.

Quote:

https://www.gouvernement.fr/en/europ...ated-by-france

I am familiar with Tesla but you are not understanding French management and technical skills. French have put there person as head of ECB. now they control money supply.

 

Renault-Mitsubishi-Nissan combined sales are highest.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/12/24...ber-in-europe/

 

That is as hilarious statement as saying “the combined sedan sales of Ford, GM, and FCA is more than the sales of Corolla in US, and therefore Corolla is crap”. .

 

It all part of Renault Group. there is nothing wrong with widest offerings.
Renault and other French Auto groups are competing with older technology with Tesla in EU and winning. French has built the widest acqusistions and mergers in Auto industry to create both vertical and horizontal efficiencies.
Elon should concentrate on Model 1 and Model 2 small electrics. Model 3 alone cannot carry the sales alone.

Citroen-Peugeot Group
.

 

What’s up with your French connection...? So according to you the French have the world’s best management and technical teams. . I would say that would be American. USA attracts the world’s best talent at present and it shows in the newer technology, medicine, space applications and other fields.
We understand your love for Acura and appreciate it, but please come back when you grow up a little bit.