dom

No idea a 9-3 cost that much.

(Cj)

Saab's prices always surprise and baffle me. But there gonna be going even higher up with their new owners

Belzebutt

^ +1

Walked into a Saab dealership once, went "hmm" at the cars, and then I was shocked to see the price stickers. I just don't get it.

F23A4

yup! The worst part is the same fully equipped 09 9-3 will wind up being worth less than an 09 AV6 EX-L within 3 years time. (Perspective: KBB shows the trade in value of an 06 9-3 Aero w/Navi @ $13,050 and the 06 AV6 EX-L Navi @ $13,800 -- both in good condition -- and we know about $10k+ seperates the original MSRP on both.)

dallison

interesting

VChron

Correct on the small part, completely off-base on loyalty. Saab and Volvo customer retention rates are among the lowest in the industry - 30.5% and 32.5%, respectively, according to the latest JD Power study. So most Saab and Volvo buyers are switching from other brands. For comparison purposes, the industry average is 48%, the best brand is at 65%, the worst is 26%, Audi is 37%, and BMW is at 58%.

The Aero is the highest trim level with almost everything standard, including leather, premium package and cold weather package, which are added-cost items on the 335xi. The only significant added-cost options available for the Aero are navigation, upgraded (natural aniline) leather and 18-inch wheels. Comparably equipped, the Aero is thousands less than the 335xi; and that's before considering the deeper discounts available on the Saab.

F23A4

I appreciate your point. However, you're just not going to sell many of us (on Azine) with the likes of Saab and Volvo (in general) over BMW or Audi.

Most of us here realize that BMW and Audi are fairly pricey but the reward is the driving experience along with a certain brand bling factor. Comparably speaking Saab and Volvo offer neither.

With regard to the deeper discounts one is likely to encounter with the Saab 9-3, that would only serve to bump it down to the TL and G37 price range which -- to most of us here -- still makes it a lost cause for the 9-3. (Despite the rhetoric here, the 4G TL's ONLY real faux pas is it's front end styling.)

Now, if one could obtain a 9-3 comparably equipped to an Accord V6 EX-L (w/Navi) for the same price (or less), that would be cause to pause. This IS where the 9-3 has more brand bling and better performance. But then the dilemma for me is do I go for bling/performance or do I go with respectable performance and reliability.

VChron

I'm not trying to sell you on anything. I just gave you the facts, straight up.

F23A4

Good, because that would be an effort in futility particularly in light of 'the facts, straight up' (so to speak):



On the bright side, it looks like Saab may overtake VW in reliability soon.

VChron

Actually, they already have according to the latest Consumer Reports survey:




The JD Power VDS relates to 3-year-old models; i.e., model year 2005 cars on the 2008 survey - not necessarily relevant to MY2009/2010 cars. The CR data is an average of MY2007-2009 vehicles - still a little behind, but certainly more relevant. But what does the data really mean anyway?

The JD Power says, for example, that on average MY2005 Toyotas had 1.6 problems/car, while Saabs had about one additional problem each at 2.5 problems/car. That's the small extent of the difference between one of the best brands and one of the worst.

CR makes things more difficult by excluding the problem rates from the chart, but the average car on their survey has about 2 problems/car over the first 4-5 years. Survey respondents are asked to report only what they consider to be "serious" problems. After some simple arithmetic, it means, for example, that Toyotas (40% better than average) have 1.2 problems/car; while BMWs, near the bottom of the list at 20% worse than average, have 2.4 problems/car. That's a difference of only about one problem/car over 4-5 years.

The bottomline from both surveys is that reliability differences are often much ado about nothing - good for bragging rights but of little practical significance. Some less reliable brands have lower maintenance/repair costs than some more reliable ones. Furthermore, the quality of the service department can have a much bigger impact on the total number of trips to the dealer; if problems aren't fixed the first time, for example. Buyers of the so-called "unreliable" brands aren't stupid, or blinded by loyalty or whatever. It's that their experience on average is not that much different from buyers of the "reliable" brands.

biker

Prediction and actual could be worlds apart. This discussion diversion is academic - Saab will stay a niche brand at best and will likely wither away in the years to come. The Swedish gov't will have only so much stomach to keep bailing them out.

TSX69

VW Trumps Toyota to Become World's Largest AutoMaker

Based on simple production stats, Volkswagen is now the world's largest automaker. Over the first nine months of 2009, VW produced 4.4 million units, while Toyota cranked out 4 million even. (Ford came in third at 3.7 million.) We're not sure how long VW will remain at the top of the heap, since much of its production and sales have been driven by government-run incentive programs in Europe, and many those programs have now ended. But even if the company's victory is fleeting, VW can technically say that it achieved its goal of becoming the world's largest automaker nearly ten years ahead of its stated 2018 deadline. [AutoCar]

SSFTSX

I was the first one to predict VW will exceed Toyota.

VW is adding its first factory in US. and adding very large Hybrid/diesel program.
when you have expensive brands like Audi/Porsche/Lambo/Bentley. Revenues should exceed easily.

Toyota couldnot maintain its largest status for more than a Year.

TSX69

November 2009 Sales
Honda Accord, CR-V and Pilot post gains; Acura Division up 20.8 percent

American Honda Motor Co., Inc., posted November sales of 74,003, an increase of 5.5 percent based on the daily selling rate* when compared to November 2008 results of 76,233, the company announced today. American Honda year-to-date sales of 1,043,641 represent a decrease of 21.7 percent based on the daily selling rate*.

Honda Division posted November sales of 65,234, an increase of 3.7 percent versus November 2008. The Accord registered the most sales of any Honda model for the month with 17,239, an increase of 7.5 percent. Additional models with year-over-year sales increases included the CR-V, up 24.8 percent to 13,955; and the Pilot, up 26.2 percent to 6,502.

"We're finding opportunities for growth in multiple areas of the market," said John Mendel, executive vice president of sales for American Honda. "Consumer interest is returning in several segments, including light trucks."

Acura Division sales increased 20.8 percent to 8,769. The MDX led the division with sales of 3,465, an increase of 79.3 percent. The TSX and RDX also recorded gains, up 35.0 percent and 50.5 percent, respectively.

*The daily selling rate (DSR) is calculated with 23 days for November 2009 and 25 days for 2008. Year-to-date, the DSR is calculated with 280 days for 2009, versus 282 days for 2008. All percentages reflect DSR.

Hapa DC5

The TL is taking a beating. I suspect most of the November TL's sold in '08 were 4gs?

SpicyMikey

^^^ Yep. I guess the buyer has spoken. The TL styling is unacceptable. no other explanation because the TL is a very good product in every other way. I am expecting Acura to do sheet metal changes at the MMC. It's not common but not unheard of

Hapa DC5

In all honesty the front end (the grille would be the obvious) seems too simple, lacking detail, looks are always subjective, but I feel with this front they went with a preliminary sketch and shifted it to production.

Someone tried to add "keen-edge" whatever to make it an evolution of the 3g, but failed. Hard to say, I really want to like this car and the grille is very standoffish. The RJ grille makes a huge difference though.

Moog-Type-S

If Honda/Acura was smart (which lately they have been drinking teh crazy juice) they would ditch the beak quickly....the same way Subaru quickly dumped the "propeller" grille.

Understand when you fail, and then remedy the situation quickly.

biker

How many days was the Crosstour on sale? It will be interesting to see those numbers (along with the ZDX) over the next couple of months.

The TSX is becoming the 3 series for Acura - steady dependable sales regradless of the economy.

The TL

Where have the Fit sales gone?

Moog-Type-S

Insight sales Is this thing considered a failure yet?

Hapa DC5

I dunno. Honda got my money in September. It's a great little car. Soft on power, but it is for fuel economy and the dog.

SpicyMikey

The grill is a real problem for many, so I'm assuming it has something to do with the obviously underperforming sales numbers. But it's probably more than that. They may need to rethink the backend as well. In fact, I think that may be a bigger problem for many people.

The car is great. Really! I know first hand. I bought an 09 last year for my daughter. Although it's not my daily driver, I've driven it as much as I could when it was available in the driveway I honestly think it's a fantastic car for the money. Certainly not planted and connected to the road like a BMW. But then again, that's not their thing anyway. Quality, value, sporty performance, great tech, etc. All the things Acura stands for, this car has it and more. I've owned a lot of Acura's over the years. I currently own an 07 RL and an 08 MDX along with the TL. I think the TL SHAWD is the best product they've produced in many years. Better than my RL in most regards and $10k cheaper. In short, I'm surprised how poorly it has sold.

(Cj)

Well it looks like the "beak" is helping MDX and RDX sales... They've been up the past few months ever since the 2010s came out. But I guess it could be that people are buying the 09s before they're all gone I wonder what the breakdown between 09 and 10's are?

Colin

For the MDX. they're all 2009s. The 2010s won't arrive for several weeks.

F23A4

In my case, let's just say that the beak wasn't enough by itself to deter me from getting the 09 MDX. The rest of the styling is enough to overcome that shield......which I honestly cannot say applies to the TL or RL's styling.

black label

How many 09 MDX's do you have left Colin? I'm down to 2 cars here with 1 more coming. Based on 2010 production dates I have, I don't expect to see a 2010 MDX until January

Colin

We've got 4 base, 4 Tech and 3 Tech/Ent. And after a closer look, I think you're right, 2010 MDX TPD is mid-month so Jan sounds more realistic.

dom

Yes, that was determined last month.

VTEC Racer

I would consider it a failure in the U.S. However, Honda's goal was to sell 200,000 globally (100,000 in the U.S. and 100,000 throughout the rest of the world), and it looks like they will still meet that goal. The Insight is selling at a consistent 10,000 units a month in Japan (best selling country) which pegs it at around 120,000 units for the year. So far since it's release 5 months ago, the Insight has sold almost 19,000 units in the U.S. which puts it at roughly 3,800 units a month on average. Lets say Honda sells a total of 45,000 units by the one year U.S. on-sale anniversary. Including Japanese sales, that leaves Honda only 35,000 units to sell throughout the rest of the world in order to meet its goal of 200,000 units. I also guarantee Honda is making more money than they expected on the Insight because more than half of Insight's sold are in Japan and that is probably the most profitable major country for Honda to be selling the Insight in right now.

So yes, the Insight is a failure as far as U.S. sales number goals go, but overall, it seems to be a smash hit for Honda. That's all that is important and really matters in the end.

(Cj)

All hybrids are selling like CRAZY in Japan because of certain incentives the government there is giving. The Prius still dominates sales charts there, and the new Toyota Sai is also in the top ten. The Lexus HS is the number one selling luxury car there, too. So without the government incentives I don't think the Insight would be doing as well there, and I don't think it can be considered a smash hit since pretty much ALL hybrids there are selling like crazy. Oh and BTW in the US the HS outsold the Insight last month...

VTEC Racer

Who really cares about anything you just said? The point is that Honda is going to meet their 200,000 unit goal and they are going to meet it more financially successful then they originally thought they were. Oh and BTW, in the U.S., the Audi R8 outsold the Lexus SC last month...

dom

Yes, lets all please ignore the 100K sales in the US white elephant that's hiding behind the tree. It was never there.

VTEC Racer

Nobody is ignoring the "white elephant." In fact, everyone has acknowledged it. My point was that the 100,000 sales goal for the U.S. has been made up by Japan and either way, Honda is meeting its goal of 200,000 units total. In fact, it is probably a blessing in the sky that Honda is selling less Insights in the U.S. and more in Japan because selling the Insight in Japan is more profitable than in the U.S. right now. Doesn't matter what U.S. goals are because Honda is going to exceed their financial and sales goal with the Insight when global sales are considered.

dom

You're ignoring the fact that sales could have and should have been even higher IF it met US sales targets.

Its a glass half full vs empty argument. The fact that its a failure in its most important market tells me that glass is half empty. Especially when factoring in US Prius sales.

VTEC Racer

I doubt Honda could have produced enough Insights to meet its U.S. sales goals AND keep up with current demand everywhere else in the world. That would require them to be able to produce something like 260,000 units which is 60,000 units more than originally planned and I just don't see it happening, even if the demand was there in the U.S.

If I were Honda, I could care less at this point that I haven't met U.S. goals. Most important market or not, right now it is not its most profitable market. Would you rather sell 100,000 units of your product in the U.S. and make, for example $3 of profit on each unit sold and brag about how you met your sales goals or would you rather sell that same product in Japan and make, for example, $5 per unit? In the end, give me the more profitable solution because that is whats going to keep me alive and allow me to come out with more products, glass half empty/full or not.

YeuEmMaiMai

Acura needs to pull their head out of their ass

first was renaming all their cars to CL TL RL yada yada
second was that craptastic 5at
third was the totally messed up styling
fourth was the TL creeping up on and passing 40K and the TSX nearing the 40K mark.........

Acura was supposed to be about affordable luxury somewhat sporty cars.....not the shitpiles they are producing now......even their quality is slipping.....only decent car they have left is the TSX

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

So we should care what YOU said but not (Cj), dom or anyone else?

What does the R8 and SC have to do with this?

Your argument again holds no weight, the Prius is in demand worldwide and it continues to sell well. Who would have thought or even looked to see the HS outselling the Insight? Is this true? What are the prices of the two?

We have all seen the tons of commercials, the Insight was the hybrid for everyone, so lets not act like Honda doesn't care about sales here.

Looking at the chart, they have sold 18,000 Insights compared to a 90,000 sales goal.

Can you post worldwide sales for us then?

(Cj)

The HS cost twice as much as the Insight, and it outsold the Insight last month. That's just plain sad for Honda. Oh and Ford sold more hybrids than Honda AGAIN last month (nearly twice as many), meaning that Ford might snag the number 2 title for hybrid sales in the US from Honda by years end.

dom

The bag of excuses is getting empty. I'm sure Honda will be sending VTEC Ricer a refill.

Moog-Type-S

Noted.