fsttyms1

this could get costly for the car/ homeowner as well. Having to run a 240v plugin to the garage may not be the cheapest or easiest thing. It may require a new service panel to handle the extra slots needed by the breaker, they may not have a large enough system in the house (100 amp) and may need to upgrade to a 200? Detached garage? just got more expensive. No basement? how do you get wire from one end of house to the garage? A typical car owner could be looking at 1500+ easily just to add a 240v plugin in the garage just to charge the car every night.

Legend2TL

Then there's the charging outlets needed for condo's, townhouses, apartments... I've all for EV's but it may take some time and serious infrastructure change to allow large scale introduction. Not gonna happen in a year or two.

Hapa DC5

I love this thread........... Glad I stayed home tonight.

Edward'TLS

If the new 3.8L-V6 puts out merely 309hp, from the "best engine builder in the world" - Honda !? That's pretty lame.

How about another repeat of the CLASS-LEADING engine output achievements such as

- the 260hp J32A2 3.2L-V6, as back in 2002
- the 240hp J30A4 3.0L-V6, as back in 2003.

But if a new naturally-aspirated 330hp J32x or a 350hp J35x from Acura/Honda, now that would be something to be celebrate for, and also that would be another good show from Honda for achieving another "Honda does this the unique Honda way".

SSFTSX

how about emission like (ULEV-2), NVH and fuel economy improvements.
3700lbs V6 TSX with 280bhp has better fuel economy than 258bhp TL 3G that is 3550lbs car. and there is stringent emission requirement.
5speed Auto TL 3G TL-S is not going to be faster than 5speed Auto V6 TSX.

i am not even going into practicall fuel economy of 2011 TSX V6.
infact i would not be surprized that 2011 V6 TSX as much fuel efficient as I-4 TSX 2004. and that will be almost 500lbs difference in weight.

fsttyms1

Ah yes, back when honda had some achievements. 330 to 350 NA would be nice to see from this company (without adding in the IMA system) but i highly doubt we will ever see something like this from acura)

Hapa DC5

That requires drive and performance orientated engineering....

Edward'TLS

I have no interest in a nothing-outstanding, all-average performance Acura engine. That's not what Honda WAS once famous for. I'm sure that the current Acura V6's have been improved a lot, but still not good enough in terms of horsepower output. Horsepower make the car go fast; emission/NVH/fuel-economy don't.

And besides, other than the 2.5L-I5 engine, all Honda engines have excellent NHV that doesn't need to be improved much on. But the V6 family does need lots of improvement on engine output efficiency, i.e., output/displacement.

Honda did released the class-leading-NA-engine-output J32A2 back in 2002 while still satisfied the then-stringent 2002 emission, 2002 NVH, and 2002 fuel economy improvements; and again in 2003 with the award-winning J30A4 while still satisfied the then-2003 emission and stuffs.

My point is that I've been scratching my head why Honda can't work it's magic once more tuning out another class-leading-NA-engine-output V6 engine while still passing all 2011 requirements, bettering the other top auto makers.

In addition, I doubt anyone wanting a HIGH-OUTPUT V6-displacement engine would worry much about fuel economy ? Those put high priority on fuel economy would automatically set their sight on small I-4 cars, not the bigger and heavier V6 cars.

Comparing 2004 technology with 2011 technology is extremely faulty. In 2008, EPA had revised the fuel economy testing procedure. So the same car having been tested in 2007 and in 2008 would give different readings. How about comparing the 2011 V6 TSX fuel efficiency vs. the 2011 I-4 TSX fuel efficiency ?

The V6-TSX is not using the same auto box as the 3G V6-TL. So it is obvious that the newest 5-speed auto box is better than the other 6-years-old design. I'm sure that the 6-speed auto box will give even better performance in both engine output and fuel economy. Tranny technology is yet another major area Honda/Acura is falling behind the top auto makers.

2004 3G TL : 2.563 (I), 1.552 (II), 1.021 (III), 0.666 (IV), 0.480 (V), 4.428 (F).

2010 V6 TSX : 2.697 (I), 1.606 (II), 1.071 (III), 0.964 (IV), 0.491 (V), 4.312 (F).

It doesn't matter which TL is faster than which TSX or vice versa. In my previous post, I said I was hoping for a 350hp engine from Acura. If my wish come true, the 350hp SH-AWD car will blow the doors off any Acura sedan in existence, period.

neuronbob

Too funny! I needed a bit laugh like this today. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

If one wants to compare engine efficiency, I believe the BMEP is an important measure, more so than output/L. In short,

"BMEP refers to the average pressure that acts on the piston during the engine’s four strokes. The higher it is, the more the design has been optimised. And the key thing about BMEP is that it takes into account engine rpm, engine volume and engine power output. It’s the only equation to use when comparing engines from the perspective of saying which is more highly developed."

http://autospeed.com/cms/A_111718/printArticle.html

Honda engines, in this regard, is one of the best. It's difficult to find NA engines that have BMEP as high as Honda, unless you go with DI.

The formula is as follow:

kW x 1200
BMEP = ---------------
litres x rpm

When you look at this formula, you will easily notice that in order to achieve good (high) BMEP, you need to have high hp, small displacement, and low rpm. In order words, an engine that makes 200hp@6000rpm with 2L is more efficient than an engine that makes 200hp@7000rpm with 2L.

There's no need to scratch your head to wonder why the J series doesn't make class-leading power. Its not designed to rev like the VQ engine is (SOHC vs DOHC). Jeff@TOV talked to some Honda engineers before and apparently the J series is capable of much more power than 305hp (400hp I believe). Problem is, what is the cost going to be? It's probably more cost effective to come out with a fresh design rather than improving the current J series. And this is exactly what Honda is currently doing.

pttl

So the J series is effectively played out. Pretty much what everyone on these boards has been saying. Lets hope Honda does it right with their new engine.
Some real torque would be nice. Although it will be attached to the front wheels.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yup, after what....13-15 years of service, I thought that the J series has done a good job in being competitive without resorting to high rpm power.

Yea...not much they can do....I can't imagine seeing a RWD Accord V6 anytime soon..lol

Edward'TLS

Well, effectively played out or not. When Infiniti is able to crank out 330hp from a 3.7L-V6, and Acura is 25hp behind, it shows that the aging J-series Honda V6 family has fallen behind and is not competitive enough. If it's not, it's not. No excuse is gonna reverse this fact.

Honda is no ordinary auto company. It had been again and again regarded as the world's best ENGINE BUILDER by the auto industry world, whether the engines are for lawn-mower or for automotive applications. Honda is famous for creating more (hp) from less (engine displacement), even with it's V6's back in 2002 (260hp 3.2L-V6) and in 2003 (240hp 3.0L-V6).

Well, Honda is still doing extremely well with it's 4-cylinder engine families, which are still in the lead to crank out big horsepower from small engine displacement. But Honda has to let the V6 family to lapse. If the J-series design has reached it's end-of-life for output tuning; just dump it right away and release a brand new V6 series which is more tunable.

Plus the fact that the new V6 family will be widely used across the complete Acura lineup and in some Honda models too. As a result, the development cost can be recouped fairly quickly.

So why is Honda still hanging onto the aging J-series design which can't spin very fast and also unable to incorporate DI to reach even higher BMEP; unlike all those newer and more advanced V6's from the other top auto makers ?

Auto makers nowadays are all racing to incorporate DI into their new engine designs, because DI has been proven to generate more hp and achieve better fuel economy. But why Honda ..... no DI ..... Why ?

The J-series V6 family life cycle has been stretched out for far too long, while letting most other top-auto-makers' newer and more advanced V6's to fly by.

The echoes of "Honda is working on new V6 engines" have been bouncing around for the past years.

So were the "Honda is working on the new NSX-replacement", and the "Honda is working on V8 powerplants", and the "Honda is working on RWD chassis", and also the "Honda is working on diesel engines for the TSX".

BUT none in the above paragraph comes true.

How long are we gonna see the new design Honda V6's ? Next year ? The year after ? Or "sorry, to be canceled (due to current market situation)" ?

Please bring me the better looking 2012 MMC TL in a Type-S trim with 350hp supercharged and a dual-clutch auto box.

SSFTSX

Acura 305bhp is more refined, more fuel efficient, more reliable and put 7speed into TSX with 305bhp and will smoke 330bhp G37. Acura has real bhp while Infiniti has bogus bhp.
Honda is no ordinary company. thats why it takes longer to built world claass product and it can wait it as it is no concentrated on short term profit.
Honda is doing extremel well with V6. look at MDX performance with 6speed auto. i am expecting similar improvement with TL V6 6speed auto. It will be faster than 330bhp M37. that is for sure.

Colin

I did a little comparison between some of the new BEV, Hybrids etc. and here's what I found (to the best of my knowledge, please correct me if I've got something wrong):

Leaf
Motor Output: 80 Kw
Battery Weight: 660 Lbs
Battery Capacity: 24 Kwh

Prius
Motor Output: 60 Kw
Battery Weight: 64 Lbs
Battery Capacity: 1.2 Kwh

Insight/CR-Z
Motor Output: 10 Kw
Battery Weight: ~30 Lbs (can't find the exact number)
Battery Capacity: .58 Kwh

Volt
Motor Output: 111 Kw
Battery Weight: 375 Lbs
Battery Capacity: 16 Kwh

Honda 2 Motor Plug in
Motor Output: 120 Kw
Battery Weight: Not listed
Battery Capacity: 6 Kwh

Interestingly, the Honda has the most powerful motor with one of the smaller batteries (storage wise). If we used the Leaf battery weight as a measurement for weight/storage, the Honda battery pack could be in the ~165 lbs range.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Well, there's no excuse. It's not an excuse. I can say, the VQ has fallen behind because its BMEP cannot match the J series. I can say that for other engines too. If we go by hp/L, then relatively speaking, the C32B is very advance. It makes 90.6hp/L. Considering it's underrrated, it's probably making over 300hp, perhaps it's more like 100hp/L. Using the 90.6hp/L, its even better than the VQ. So the VQ is so outdated that it can't even match the C series which came out in 1990? Same for the Toyota GR engine in the IS350 (87hp/L), CTS (84.7hp/L), C350 (76.6hp/L). Some of these engines even have DI, yet they have less hp/L than the C32B. So all of these are outdated? DI is useless? Going by your logic that, these would be outdated. But, I don't think so. This is why hp/L isn't the best indicator to judge whether an engine is advanced or not.

I totally understand that the J series isn't the newest, the most advanced, the most powerful, or the most efficient. There's no getting around that. But they can't just dump it when the new V6 series isn't ready, right? Like you have been saying, the competition suddenly has gotten much better - Ford, GM, Toyota, etc, all of them came out with some pretty decent engines recently. I have a feeling that Honda wants to make sure its new engine will demolish each and everyone. Honda probably went back to the drawing board to refine its design, hence it's taking a while?

As for DI in a Honda, I think we have already discussed that before. On the other hand, we also have to give Honda credit for putting actual racing technologies into their engine design, namely, they use a forged crank in the J series. You won't even find that in a Corvette, unless you step up to the Z06. Not to mention the metallurgy and some other tech stuff. Sometimes I wish Honda would pay more attention with their marketing. But then I don't think many people know what those technologies are.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

LS600h's motor has 165kW I think. GS460H has 147kw.

Colin

On this point, I'd guess that the engine is ready, it's just waiting for the rest of the car to catch up. I'm guessing this will debut with the new 2-motor hybrid in the new RL. All the pieces are coming together, possibly including a new transmission. The bottom line is; they're not going to put an all-new drivetrain in an MMC car.

Colin

^^Thanks, can't find the capacity of the Lexus battery pack, but as noted, the Motor is 165 Kw, the weight is 174 Lbs.

Hapa DC5

Where did this 7speed come from? Didn't they JUST manage to come out with a 6speed? It's cause they are no ordinary company I forgot............................

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

hmm, yea i guess that could be true too. They mentioned about new tranny too. Do you have any clue what kind of tranny it would be?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

np

Colin

Yeah, I've already provided plenty on this. Do you really think that when they made the DSG for the motorcycle they didn't make one for cars too?

biker

^ I always wonder how much interaction there is between the bike and car guys at Honda.

SSFTSX

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...as-civics.html

Honda Preparing to Expand U.S. Sales of Natural Gas Civics



Honda Motor Co., the only automaker currently selling a natural gas-powered car to U.S. consumers, plans to expand sales to most of the 50 states next year, from four now, U.S. Executive Vice President John Mendel said.

“You will see us expand sale of Civic GX across the country,” Mendel told reporters in a briefing at the Los Angeles Auto Show yesterday. “It’ll be a whole new vehicle,” he said, without elaborating.

The Tokyo-based company will make the sales announcement in conjunction with plans to revamp the Civic lineup in 2011, Mendel said.

Honda, which has sold a natural gas Civic for the past decade, promotes the fuel as causing less pollution than gasoline and sourced entirely from domestic sources. Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler Group LLC have also said they’re developing natural gas models.

The current federal incentive for the purchase of a natural gas car is $3,500, Mendel said. While Honda has sold about 2,000 units of the Civic GX a year, it will sell only about 1,200 this year because of the plans to revamp the model, he said.

Honda gained 1.3 percent in Tokyo trading to 3,125 yen as of 1:23 p.m. The stock has increased 0.5 percent in 2010.

Global Warming

Boone Pickens, founder and chairman of Dallas-based BP Capital LLC, said yesterday a bill to help convert the U.S. trucking fleets to natural gas may pass Congress by year-end with bipartisan support.

Pickens wants buses and trucks that run on natural gas to replace the diesel and gasoline engines that contribute to global warming and increase U.S. oil imports that cost the country as much as $1 billion a day.

The measure, which Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid introduced in September, has support from Republicans and Democrats and may be the first major legislation during the Obama administration to win support from both parties, Pickens said.

Mendel declined to provide a sales goal for the revamped natural gas Civic. Honda’s U.S. unit is based in Torrance, California.

To contact the reporter on this story: Alan Ohnsman in Los Angeles at aohnsman@bloomberg.net

Edward'TLS

100% agree with the C32B. This is why I'm still with Honda/Acura. The C32B was one of Honda's best. This is the sort of stuff I expect to come out from Honda - the world's best engine builder.

The C32B was very advanced indeed, even by today's standard. So was the Acura NSX which housed this engine. In fact, the C32B was so good that Honda decided to reserve it solely for the image-boosting flagship sport car, and also let the C32B to die with the demise of the flagship car.

No matter how un-outdated the C32B is. It's done. It no longer exists. All that is left is a good memory which still leaves sweet taste in my mouth.

Finished talking with history.

This is now.

Honda has shelved the advanced C32B V6, and instead has decided to widely use the 13-years old non-advanced (when compared to the C32B) J-series V6. Is it a wise choice to give up on the best and embrace the outdated ?

The Honda 3.7L J-series has a hp/L number of 82.4, which is below those of Toyota's, Cadillac's, and Infiniti's.

Despite having been sidetracked by the non-exist C32B which still holds the lead for hp/L ratio for naturally aspirated 4-cycle cylinder engines, the fact still remains - the fact that the aging J-series is lagging behind the modern offerings by the other competitors when comparing the hp/L ratio.

Hp/L ratio is a very good index to compare engine performance under the same category (naturally-aspirated). It is a gauge of how good or how efficient an engine design is. Only the best auto maker is able to generate more (hp) from less (engine displacement); which is what Honda was once very good at, and which is what makes Honda famous as an extraordinary auto maker.

Costco

HP/liter and BMEP is fine and dandy when it comes to penis-measuring contests between engine manufacturers but some real statistics that matter are MPGs, and 1/4. Then there's NVH and subjective matters... but no need to add fuel to the fire.

You can have a car with an engine that has direct injection, a HP/liter ratio and BMEP that blow away the competition, but if it only puts only 200 horsepower and 140 lb/ft of torque and you bolt a 3-speed automatic onto it then drop it inside of a 4,000 lb car..... it doesn't matter how great your powertrain engineers are. Exaggerating of course, but still.

I'm not singling Honda out on this one either.... though it's clear they can and will improve given the right timing. Rather, I'm looking at you, Buick/GM. The Lacrosse looked to be a promising car in pictures and in text, but it turned out to just be an utter disappoint in the real world

biker

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I don't even know where to start...lol...this situation seems familiar. I remember we were debating this before and we agreed to disagree in the end. I'm guessing this hasn't changed...lol. I think we look at things differently. You prefer DOHC and oversquared design that make high rpm and thus high hp possible. I tend to prefer the engineering inside. You know, things like metallurgy, cylinder head design (I believe Honda is really good at this), forged crank, etc.

We both know that the new V6 engine is coming. Sure, they said things about NSX replacement and V8 and RWD and those never came true. But those are for image boosting. A new V6 on the other hand, is a necessity. I don't think we have to worry too much about whether it will come out or not. It's just a matter of time.

With the C32B, we know what Honda was capable of 20 years ago. I'm sure you know that they are capable of much more now. Your concern is, why they seem to make the J series inferior (which I don't think it is). Well, I can see several reasons, but let's forget the hp/L ratio and BMEP stuff first:

1.) Compact. Its main goal was to be very compact. In fact, this is still one of the most compact V6's in the world. Part of that is due to the SOHC design. 15 years ago, its output was very competitive, if not class-leading. Why they were some obsessed with making the most compact V6 engine? I don't know.

2.) Cost. The C32B was very advanced with its technologies. But it's very expensive. The J series still packs a lot of things that can't be found in many new V6 engines. Like I said before, an example would be a forged crank.

3.) Purpose. The C32B was designed for a pure-bred sports car for a $100,000 car. The J series? It's for a family sedan, minivan, SUV, pickup truck...you name it. It has to be versatile. If you stuff a C32B into a ridgeline....its high rpm power won't be very useful. If you put the C32B into the Odyssey, I don't think the NVH will be good enough (Unless you want a Odyssey Type S or something).

4.) Fuel economy. The 3000lb NSX was rated at 17/24mpg. The 4500lb Odyssey is rated at 19/28mpg. Period.

So, is the C32B really suitable? Is the C32B really more advanced than the J? Well, depends on the application, But from a cost/benefit perspective, from a fuel economy point of view, well, I have to say the J series is more suitable.

That's very true. And I guess that's one of my points too. You need to be balanced and make sure the engine is suitable for the purpose the car is made for.

And I totally agree with the Lacrosse (and Regal).

Colin

Without a doubt the NSX engine was a jewel. It was essentially a race car engine for the street. I wrote this in one of my newsletters back in 1999:

Clearly, this engine could never be manufactured in such a way that it could do duty in a mainstream production car. It's amazing how well the J does considering it's production 'handicap'. As you noted, it uses a lot of pretty advanced technologies internally including (in the AWD TL 3.7)

-cylinder liners made of high-silicon aluminum and cast directly into the aluminum block
-VTEC® rocker arm system features variable lift and timing for both intake and exhaust valves.
-forged-steel crankshafts for high strength and minimum weight
-oil cooled, forged aluminum pistons, making possible the high 11.2:1 compression ratio
-The connecting rods are steel forgings for high strength, and are "crack separated" This process forms a lighter, stronger connecting rod with perfect mating surfaces

Other developments for the J in the TL AWD include:
-3.7L camshaft lobes deliver more lift (4-percent more on intake, 10-percent more on exhaust), more valve opening duration (4-percent more on intake, 14-percent more on exhaust), and increased intake/exhaust valve overlap.
-Intake port design on the 3.7-liter SH-AWD® engine has been improved enough that the new ports alone add seven horsepower versus earlier designs. Compared to the 3.5L V-6, intake valve weight has been reduced 13-percent due to removal of material from the valve head.

That is a lot of work in an outgoing engine design, but most importantly, it's an engine built on an assembly line and not by hand by one of a select group of engine builders. Heck, Honda Performance Development makes ~100 Indycar engines for the season, NSX production barely topped 250 in its last year.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

The compression ratio is pretty high for such an old engine without DI.

It would be great to implement those newer/popular technologies into a new design (while keeping cost down and reliability up).

smarty666

I can tell you that after having a VTEC and VQ engines that while the VQ might becoming outdated as time goes on, its performance and acceleration characteristics are still superior. I have been able to beat if not at least keep up with almost any equivalent 6 cyl engine with the VQ. Its not as bad as some make it out to be. There is a reason Infiniti is the main competitor to BMW and not Acura.

Colin

Leaf
Motor Output: 80 Kw
Battery Weight: 660 Lbs
Battery Capacity: 24 Kwh

Prius
Motor Output: 60 Kw
Battery Weight: 100 Lbs (new number)
Battery Capacity: 1.2 Kwh

Insight/CR-Z
Motor Output: 10 Kw
Battery Weight: 45 Lbs (found number)
Battery Capacity: .58 Kwh

Volt
Motor Output: 111 Kw
Battery Weight: 375 Lbs
Battery Capacity: 16 Kwh

Honda 2 Motor Plug in
Motor Output: 120 Kw
Battery Weight: Not listed
Battery Capacity: 6 Kwh

Tesla
Motor Output: 185 Kw
Battery Weight: 990 Lbs
Battery Capacity: 53 Kwh

pttl

Yep. Honda can surely excel at engine design, and maximizing what they are working with. It's just too bad that they put it the package that they did.

Edward'TLS

In fact, I don't prefer any particular engine design (round heads, square heads, or even oval heads as in Honda superbikes), as long as the engine can generate lots of horsepowers (330-350hp) or at least on par with the highest output engine available now from other competitors.

Since the J-series V6 has reached the end-of-life for tuning additional hp output (otherwise Honda won't resort to the primitive way of adding engine displacement in order to increase output hp), I can only see that the only ways to squeeze out 330-350hp from the J-series are by using either force-induction (Audi) or performance-IMA (Lexus).

I have had too many repeating disappointments from Acura, such as RWD chassis, V8 powerplants, V8-RWD RL sedan, V8 TL sedan, etc., etc.

I don't care now at this point in time. I have one more hope from Acura. Whatever you do, Honda, just give me a 330-350hp TL Type-S with a better looking front end.

Just wish that my 2G car didn't have that crappy design tranny in the 1st place, sigh . . . . . .

Legend2TL

In terms of HP/L the lead is probably the Ferrari 458 these days, also the S2000 (120HP/L) and the M3 are very good motors.

In terms of "outdated" the J motor is actually in many way far superior to the C motor. For one it was a 60o angle versus 90o angle. That made engine packaging far easier and probably improved safety in to a certain extent since the motor was narrower and allowed more crumble volume for the chassis.

It is a shame Honda never developed DOHC heads for the J, would have been interesting to see how much power it would have gotten. But compare the SOHC C motors to the SOHC J motors and the J is superior.

Legend2TL

In terms of Honda engine fans, one of their bigger fans is Bob Lutz. He has spoken many times of well Honda had done in their approach to motor design and production. Osamu Goto used to be Honda's top engine designer in the 80's and early 90's before leaving and going to work for Ferrari. He designed the NA V10 and V12 motors for the F1 program and I thought was also involved with the C32B. Gordon Murray wanted him to design the motor for the McLaren F1 but Honda management at that time were scaling back their motorsport efforts. Goto was the one who really promoted the lean burn concepts and CVCC technology in the 70's while working on Honda car engines.

Edward'TLS

Speaking of Honda's F1 efforts.

It was the 1.5L turbo-V6 during the 1983-1992 era that was Honda's best. As a F1 engine supplier, Honda had won six constructor champions, as well as five driver championships for it's William-Honda and then McLaren-Honda teams. The 1.5L-turbo-V6 was so powerful that the Honda powered F1 cars simply ran away from the rest of the field.

However, Honda never excelled in F1 as a full outfit race team. Honda only does it job best as an engine builder in F1 motorsport.

Legend2TL

In general I agree that Honda has done very well in F1 only as a engine manufacturer but one has to remember 2009.

Honda had hired Ross Brawn from Ferrari to help build their F1 team as technical director along with Fry. After the economic downfall of 2008, they decided in December (?) of 2008 to leave F1. The Honda F1 for 2009 was already complete, but Honda simply walked away from the sport by selling Ross and others the team for a ceremonious one pound.

Honda even helped provide some funding for the first few races while Brawn negotiated a MB engine deal. The rest is history as Brawn/Button won the Constructors/Drivers Championships in their "first" year 2009. In reality the facility, autoclaves, engineering, wind tunnels,... were all planned and bought by Honda. Although Honda bought the FIA rights from Tyrrell they really didn't get very much in facilities or engineering.

Honda exec's had to painfully watch 2009 knowing they helped plan and pay for what is now MB F1 team.

Not the first time either Honda had bad luck happen, Honda hired Dr. Harvey Postlethwaite in the late 90's to develop a F1 car unfortunately he dies of a heart attack while they were testing their F1 car in Spain.

Edward'TLS

There was one catch. Only that the winning 2009 Brawn F1 cars were powered by Mercedes engines, not by Honda engines.

Even though those 2009 Brawn cars were designed, constructed, and wind-tunneled with 100% Honda involvement, they were not powered by Honda engines.

The Honda F1 engines in the previous years were not proven to be powerful enough, nor to be reliable enough, when compared with the Renualt and the Mercedes powerplants.

But the Mercedes engines at that time were known to be the most powerful in the field, and rumored to have been generating 20-30 more hp than the next closest competitor engine : Renault.

In fact, the Mercedes engines were so powerful then that FIA had to force Mercedes to tune down the engine output for the following seasons, in order to "equalize" the amount of engine advantage by the Mercedes powered teams.

So the Brawn F1 team might not have enjoyed the same success if the cars were Brawn-Honda instead of Brawn-Mercedes.