justinjsw

Back to square one...HPT is not a different model. Its just an additional FACTORY option for the 6 spd manual. Right now we don't know if its just tires or tires+package. What we do know its that the AT will have sports shift. It will not have 285HP more like 270HP.
2004 TL...

AT
AT with Navi
6 spd
6 spd with Navi
6 spd with "HPT"
6 spd with "HPT" and Navi

Re: U.S. Models only

RJC RSX

justin, when do you expect to see an AWD offering for the TL?

Colin

Honda engineers are not fond of turbos for several reasons:

1) Already mentioned, but reliability is an issue.

2) Emissions, Turbos sitting in the exhaust path soak up a lot of heat that is needed to fire up the catalytic converter. This dramatically increases "cold start emissions" and Honda is proud to have one of the cleanest fleets in all the auto world and unless this can be solved (pre heating the cat) it will never happen.

3) Drivability issues. Even the best turbos suffer from turbo lag. Trust me, trying to hustle my old MR-2 turbo around the autocross track was difficult. The boost would come on when you least expect it, if if you were off boost, you were stuck with a low compression engine with no torque. This may not be as much of a problem when drag racing, but remember this: of all the forms of motor racing honda has participated in, drag racing is not one of them.

Quite frankly, if Honda wanted to do it, I'm sure they would be among the best. Their old F-1 engine was a 1.5 liter turbo V-6 that used to make around 700 HP (maybe more in qualifying trim depending on who you ask)! Their 2.65 liter V-8 CART engines were probably producing more than 800-850 hp at theit peak. Honda doesn't do turbos, cause Honda doesn't want to!

As for superchargers, well, in some cases, they would be nice. They don't have the emissions and lag issues of turbos, but they still have the reliability questions. IMO VTEC has proven itself to be a worthy alternative.

justinjsw

To be honest I don't know. I never worked for R/D only in Marketing. So everybody I know are in the marketing dept. at HQ. And of course everything with Honda seems to be Top Secret.

This is just a guess so don't quote me. I think within 12-18 months. Sometime ago Honda said that they will come out with a new product every 6 months. I do not remember when that article was probably about 10 months ago.

Turbos and superchargers are not options for Honda.
V8s are not options either. Their R/D dept are not going that direction.

wishiwere

Sorry for the naivete, but what is the difference between a turbocharger and a supercharger? Thanks!

JeffPhx

I would guess that the Dynamic package to be a cross between the US 6M and HPT models. I imagine the Dynamic to have all season performance tires with the upgraded suspension from the HPT model. It would not make sense to send summer performance tires to Canada, and I imagine that is what will be on the HPT. But I am purely guessing on this.....

bdt980

Does anyone know how smooth the ride will be because i live in the State with the worst streets in the country and i dont wanna be bouncing everywhere

STL

Dude, you obviously don't know very much about Honda if you think there is any chance of seeing a turbo on the TL (much less any other Honda/Acura). LOL

STL

I totally agree with you. KC streets and highways totally suck!! Furthermore, about 50% of the time I'm driving in KC at least one interstate is totally shut down for a big wreck.

RJC RSX

You should try driving downtown in DC. Anyways, the auto should have a really nice soft ride.

justinjsw

This is an off topic question but here is your answer.

The key difference between a turbocharger and a supercharger is its power supply. Something has to supply the power to run the air compressor. In a supercharger, there is a belt that connects directly to the engine. It gets its power the same way that the water pump or alternator does. A turbocharger, on the other hand, gets its power from the exhaust stream. The exhaust runs through a turbine, which in turn spins the compressor.

There are tradeoffs in both systems. In theory, a turbocharger is more efficient because it is using the "wasted" energy in the exhaust stream for its power source. On the other hand, a turbocharger causes some amount of back pressure in the exhaust system and tends to provide less boost until the engine is running at higher RPMs. Superchargers are easier to install but tend to be more expensive.

Now back to the rumors

829 posts and counting...and it's only July...oh boy

RJC RSX

justin-- have you seen the interior yet?

justinjsw

No I have not. I can't get up to Torrance till after the Acura Tennis Classic. What's more important? Seeing Anna K. in person or looking at the interior or a TL. Actually that's a bad question... with you guys you will say the TL.

RJC RSX

yeah, sorry to say, but the latter

CK03RSX-S

Hey justin, maybe you can get Anna to get us some more info from one of the "big wigs" at the Acura Tennis Classic. Although you seem to have good connections, she might have a little more to offer them

Raheel

Dude, You know you are so right..

On the note, they said Dont leak it and dont tell anyone, and stuff.. So you could feel special or something, They said it so much like they want you to go around telling people..

Kinda like reverse Psychology. You get it?

But why would Honda spread wrong rumours about a Name?

Specs I could imagine but why a simple Name?

Stash

I should clarify my post.

The manual will be far sportier then the auto. That is before the HPT or "Dynamic Package" upgrade.

Auto=Sports Luxury
Manual=Sports Luxury

The dynamic package or HPT as far as I know is 18"s and Brembos

Hope this clears it up.

EmuMessenger

The thread is starting to heat up again.

Now, I suppose we can continue the "what is HPT?" debate for another 10 pages.

HPT, Navi sounds like the car for me. Unless HPT = Horrible Paint Texture

Just a quick rant. The paint on both my 99 TL and 03 TLS has been sub-par to say the least.

phile

Say hello to the Honda Life Dunk.

http://www.honda.co.jp/Dunk/

RJC RSX

yeah but you don't see that here in the U.S. now do you, and I bet it's in limited production over there. Honda has long used the JDM in order to test out new products to see if they're successful before bringing them over here.

phile

True, but that was just to show that Honda makes turbos, contrary to what was claimed. But as for seeing a turbo in the 04 TL, I don't see that happening either.

Metal_Driver

I have finally decided to sign up after watching this and other TL forum over the past few months.

First of all thanks to the Acura folks and insiders on this net who have taken the time to provide the information to date (nh-603p, acuragal, Colin, Justin, and others).

The reason why I finally signed up is to express my deep disappointment in the fact that the performance package will only be offered on the manual version. Then to add more injury to insult it looks like Red will only be offered on the manual in Canada. I am a true Honda fan and I was ready to by a Red TSX months ago when I got a look at the new TL concept. Like many of us guys out there who attracted to this type of car I am married yet still young enough want a sporty looking set of wheels. But as other married guys have already attested to here a manual transmission is simply out of the question as our counter parts will also be driving whatever shows up on the driveway.

If it is true that Red and 18" rims are not possible on the new 04 TL I think I will go back to having another look at a 330.

:'(

Jason

BMW

Iceman

need4spd_RENAMED

OK, here I go, ready to switch to an Auto for the first time in 23 years, picking an Acura TL because of the great reviews I have heard on the TL Type S (only avail with Auto) and the Marketing folks decide to change the rules!

ie - only a 6spd Manual with the higher performance tires (suspension too we think and brembos).

Acura is the only car company (other than honda) that I know of that differentiates sport by transmission. All others for the same car (ie not the G35 coupe vs sedan as I would not consider them the same) offer a sport package that is identical for Auto and Manual (even the purest Germans).

Audi in their 2004 S4, is adding for the first time - an automatic - to the 340hp beast, here we have Acura taking a step backwards.

MB - doesn’t even offer a manual tranny for the USA, and even the BMW M3 has an automatic the better half can drive (SMG equipped M3's).

Just look at the latest super sedans, the RS6, E55 AMG, and M5 (2005 will be avail as SMG auto) the Audi and MB are only available as automatic.

I just can't figure Acura's marketing department on this, after their success with the TL Type S especially!!!!

Its not too late Acura, reconsider, add the sport suspension from the manual to the auto cars as an option

I just have to agree with metal_driver and think about switching to a different car if Acura is hell bent on telling us Automatics are not sport and you must row the gears yourself to get one.

They are missing the whole market segment that is looking at this car. AND what every other automaker is doing in the USA with sport car (or near sport car) segments.

I have a manual mid-sized car, a Nissan Maxima, and Acura if you are listening, yes I LOVE the car, BUT, NISSAN on average has only had sales of 6-7% (true numbers) of the Maxima with a manual transmission, you are severely limiting the appeal of the new TL based on it's great new sporty looks, you are selling the public short!!!

I think that ACURA is just nuts to do what they are doing.

I am not going to put up with my wife telling me for the next 5-6 years (how long I hold onto my car at a min) what a mistake it was to buy the TL with a manual tranny, the car is simply not worth it when I can buy a whole slue of cars for the same OR LESS with the same sport package as the manual car equiv!!!

Guys at Acura marketing (this is not an R&D idea), get your heads out of your bosses butt (must have been dreamed by a boss and a bunch of YES men (and women) must be going along with it not to buck the system and loose jobs over it), and offer the same sport suspension, tires, brakes on the auto version that the manual will get.

Please please please

I am sorry to go on and on, but there are so many reasons to do this, please don’t disappoint or I will switch cars just on the fact of how stupid this is and will never go back to an ACURA!

Picking a car is a huge undertaking for me as I keep them so long, and the way things are going, I'll be pulling my deposit and moving it elsewhere if the order sheets come out like we think they are.

Sorry to all the members of this site that you had to read this, just had to get it off my chest.

BTW - I am not looking for corrections on who offers what out in the market, only point I am making is that ACURA is off base on this one and should reconsider the packages for the AUTO - THANKS!

need4spd_RENAMED

BTW - while writing this last message, I had the pleasure of watching 4 acura commercials on the MDX, TL and TSX, (yes, the TSX posted twice) each comercial making me more angry with Acura!

BuddySol

The Honda Z was the first Honda to come with TURBO. (It's a Japan Only K-Car)

edit: Sorry...kinda jumped the gun, but as someone else said never count Honda out when it comes to turbo'n cars. They do, and usually do it on their K-Cars since it ups their power cheaply and efficiently. I wasn't sure about the Life Dunk...but I guess it is. Also their other K-Car: That's is also turbo. So at one point Honda had/is employing 3 cars with turbos, which are volume sellers nontheless.

jwaters943

Ok, so I was wrong....but then again I've never been too concerned with cars that weren't available in the U.S. To the best of my knowledge, Honda has never sold a turbo charged car in the states.

The whole point of my post was to dispell the theory that HPT = High Pressured Turbo. If Acura was to release a turbo-charged version of the FWD TL available only w/ the 6 speed manual that would be pointless. The new TL is supposed to have around 270hp stock, but if they added a high pressure turbo, you're looking at 325-335 easy. Do you know what kind of MASSIVE torque steer that car would have? Power without control = bad.

SPUDMTN

As a side note...MB does offer a manual tranny for the USA. Check out the SLK230, SLK320, C230 coupe & sedan, C240 sedan & wagon, and C320 coupe, sedan, and wagon. The tranny used is a 6-speed.

Technicalities, technicalities


SPUDMTN

phile

High torque numbers and FWD do not necessarily doom a car for torque steer, though. If the engine is longitudinally mounted (as in the Acura RL), it has equal length shafts that wouldn't cause torque steer (it is my understanding that unequal shaft lengths cause the pull, not the actual layout of the drivetrain). The only drawback is that the car looks like a BMW - long hood. Well, depending on your outlook, that might be a good thing.

RJC RSX

yup, I want their turbo jet ski At least they are partially open to the idea, and like justin said, if anyone is going to make a real good turbo, it's honda. Maybe they'll overcome the envrionmental and reliability concerns some day.

RJC RSX

Am I the only one that's happy the automatic won't have a more sporty set up like the 6sp??

NOVAwhiteTypeS

god damn this thread is longg.. anyways

how come no one mentions weight distribution?

will it be close to 50/50 , will they be able to mount the engine behind the axle like the nissans and can the vtm set off the weight in the rear to close to 55/45 ?? if the car wants to handle like a sports car I hope they did something w/ the weight distribution...

Colin

You are correct about equal length half shafts and torque steer, but it should be noted that even in our cars with a transverse engine, there are still equal length halfshafts. Yes, the transmission is offset, but a "spacer shaft" (for lack of the proper term) runs to a u-joint and thus makes each half shaft the same length.

Honda/Acura cars have no torque steer because our high reving engines have no torque...... j/k.

RJC RSX,
I am ok with the decision that the High Performance Tire package is only on the Manual transmission model. This is how it is with the RSX-S, Integra Type-R and GS-R. The best performing model is in the manual transmission.

Need4spd,
Also, who says that the package will not be available as an option through the parts department? (Honda/Acura is going to really push FP) We already have rims for most of the cars in the lineup! This is likely only a wheel and tire package, you add it to the auto model yourself

(BTW, it is too late for any changes to the car.... brochures are probably already printed, magazine reviews are written and the cars are probably being made as we speak)

Stash

That is exactly where you should direct your anger. But what kind of sports car has an automatic?

RJC RSX

you gotta remember that this car "competes" with the ES300...do you think that crowd wants a stiff ride? No they want a soft ride that floats along the road but can still take the occasional corner nicely. I think it's great that Acura is going to provide a 6sp with a stiffer suspension and more sporty setup, but there's no way the majority of auto drivers in this class want that.

CK03RSX-S

OFF TOPIC for COLIN:

Any word or info on the FP for the RSX? Will Acura be selling the parts individually or only in the FP package? Acura "press released" the FP info it seems like years ago, but nothing else since. Thanks.

ON TOPIC:

As a few others have mentioned, I think Acura may be pulling our chains here. Not sure on what aspect, but HPT seems like a pretty odd name for a factory option from Acura. Honda/Acura usually keeps product lines pretty simple, ie. TL, TL-Type S; Accord EX, LX, DX, etc. Why a new factory option name? Jumping into conspiracy mode for a minute, I think Acura may be disseminating a lot of BS on the web.

jwaters943

I agree. For all we know it could be a bunch of BS, but people are going on and on about it. I think the "theories" as to what it stands for have been exhaused. Until the specs are released and we all know for sure it's pointless to keep dredging up the same old discussion is it not? I mean, I understand the curiousity....I'm curious myself, but this thread has gone crazy. We need to remain patient and wait for concrete facts.

Jason

EDIT (after Emu's post below): Yeah, I'll keep checkin the thread too.

EmuMessenger

Well, opionions and rumors are $.10/dozen in this thread.

In spite of the seemingly large quantities of BS, speculation and other false data, I still seem to visit the thread at least a dozen times a day in hopes of something real and true.

Even with 10 more pages of BS, I will still be here and reading.