vybzkartel

Remember, the engine in the current RL is a 3.7, that's rated at 300hp. The 3.5 in the TL is 280hp.

The news we've all been reading is that the new engine is a 3.5(DOHC?). I'd assume that the 3.7 is dead?

Yumcha

But, in all honesty, I'll wait for the official press release and pictures before I go all-negatron here.

Give the car a chance.




Honda/Acura...please, PLEASE stop being so freaking stubborn. Please.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Legend2TL

+1, let's see it before passing judgment

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

fking

I honestly want Honda/Acura to do well in the market. Release something like 3G TL or S2K type of cars, so I can buy them.

Mr Marco

eh-um, NSX=Flagship

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

NSX = Halo Car
RL = Flagship

If the NSX were the flagship, then the majority of Acura's lineup would be sports cars. The flagship exemplifies the overall brand image which is why the RL is the flagship. The NSX is a tangent, showcasing the technological feats that the brand is capable of, while not committing themselves to introducing all of those features in all of their cars.

VTEC Racer

Yes, as far as I know, the 3.7 is dead. However, in releasing the preliminary data of the new EDT 3.5 V6 (which is SOHC), Honda stated that it will have at least 310 hp.

KillerG

Thank you, this is still an often misunderstood subject

Mr Marco

You all missed the point. Why bring back the NSX if the future of the brand doesn't include sports cars. The NSX brings them into the showroom and they drive out with a Sport sedan. Not a hopelessly underselling obsolete platform. Future Acura's will undoubtedly be sports oriented hybrids (under 400hp).

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

I really don't feel I've missed anything. The majority of Acura's lineup isn't going to be sports cars. They may have a couple in the future, which is speculation at this point, but to classify the NSX as the flagship is like Ford saying their flagship is the Shelby GT500, or MB saying their flagship is the Gullwing or SLR. Look at how many MORE sports cars BMW has compared to many other brands, yet they have no halo car, but they do have a flagship which is the 7 series.

Moog-Type-S

Sadly, the truth is that this has been in the pipe for quite some time....and it's gonna be nothing to write home about.

Fans....if there are any left, will have to wait yet another gen to see if Acura will turn things around. 2019 model year anyone?

...and I will say it again: Honda/Acura, PLEASE prove me wrong!!!!

fsttyms1

So the RL, TL and TSX will all be pretty much the same size?? Lets get some segment separation.

Yumcha

If Acura ever was intending to compete with the A8, S-Class, LS-Class and etc., Acura would have announced a V8 and V10 ages ago.

We are not seeing that and so, that reveals their market is likely after cars like the Infiniti M35, 535i, Audi A6, Lexus GS350...




And sure. But, what makes my head hurt is why go after a TRIM? Why not the class? The GS350 is a TRIM. Not the entire spectrum of the GS. Who bases their car model after the competitor's ONE TRIM?

I don't get it.

Mr Marco

Sure according to Wiki:
Flagship

Automobiles

The term flagship is also used to describe the top or main vehicle manufactured by automotive marque. These vehicles are usually, but not always, the most expensive, prestigious and largest vehicles in the line-up. The term is most often applied to sedans and usually only those manufactured by luxury automobile marques. The Mercedes-Benz S-Class is one example, and the BMW 7-Series is another.

The term "halo car" is often used in automotive marketing and journalism to refer to the flagship vehicle. The term is derived from the halo effect, the tendency for a favorable trait to influence the perception of subsequent traits in a sequence of interpretations; it appears to have been used as early as 1938.

My point is that Acura can't keep a car in the line up that doesn't sell. It amounts to poor business. They will eventually have to get rid of that dog. BMW sold 11,300 7's in the US last year...again, how many RL's did Acura sell?

Yumcha

WTF are you doing in here? You have more important threads to go into...



LIKE THE NFL THREAD.

dom

Well, we know the TSX is gone so that's not an issue.

But interesting point....if the next RL has the same exterior size as the current one, then its probably safe to assume that the next TL will also be similarly sized and packaged (smaller I'm sure but not by much is my guess). Which leaves me wondering if they'll have the same problem on their hands. Will E-SH-AWD be the only difference?

Lets wait and see what shows up in New York before getting carried away.

dom

I guess the TL will still have mechanical SH-AWD as an option so you're probably right.

Mr Marco

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Total 2011 sales of the RL: 768
Less than 1,000??? Tesla sold more roadsters last year!

Anyone care to guess what the numbers will be next year?

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

That still doesn't mean that the next gen RL won't be classified as the flagship. I'm simply going by how a majority of the brands treat their model lineup. We may perceive them differently, but Acura, Bimmer, Lexus, Merc, they all treat their top sedan as the flagship.

I'm not saying it's right, just saying how it is now and how it probably will be when the next gen is released.

The RL needs a major makeover, there's no doubt there.

Mr Marco

My point is keeping the RL is a poor business idea. If there is anyone with a brain at Acura they would AXE this vehicle from the line-up. What better time to do it then when you have a new TOTL vehicle to take its place. The RL name is reminds me of OLD people with too much extra money to burn on big slow cars. Remember these?


Ford is discontinuing it because they only sold 891 last year. Hmm, good idea...HEY ACURA!

dom

Jeff at TOV seems to think (or heard) the Legend name will be back in some form.

VTEC Racer

I think with this next gen RL, it will be more prepared to compete with the entire class.

With the confirmation of the hybrid powertrain not being standard, this will in a way make it like the optional "V8" that BMW and MB offer in this class. If we have the standard V6 competing with the 535 and E350, then the hybrid model with 400hp can be an alternative to compete with the V8 equipped models. With the hybrid powertrain having V8 power, it will be like killing two birds with one stone: Offering V8 power and a hybrid to compete with the hybrid/alternative fuel models and the V8 models.

I doubt Acura will offer a 4 cylinder in the RL like BMW does with the 5-Series and Audi with the A6.

ttribe

Yes. Now I'd like some specific examples of this; throwing this statement against the wall doesn't make it true. I've been in plenty of Acuras (including RL's), and I've spent some time in an Audi 6 (that I almost bought) as well as more than a little time in a BMW 5 series. Acura fit and finish is not even in the same league as those two.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

That would be nice, but that would mean a shift in the way all of their vehicles are called. Don't see that happening right now.

And in fact with the brand differentiation that Acura wants to make with Honda, calling the next RL the Legend again would be a step backwards, no matter how much we like the Legend and Integra nameplates.

Legend2TL

A few + for the RL, but there are probably many for 5 which are also better than the RL.

1) Carbon Fiber driveshaft on RL

2) Better Electrical Connectors on RL from what I've seen (BMW still use some POS connectors, not all but some).

3) Electrical sub-systems (HPFP, turbo's, oil coolers,.... all BMW quality problems)

4) Electrical switches (Honda still rules here, but I will admit the iDrive knob feels excellent).

Legend2TL

^ should be

3) Better engine sub-systems (HPFP, turbo's, oil coolers,.... all BMW quality problems)

ttribe

+1 to the RL

Debatable. I've played with both at this point and found no discernible difference. Nevertheless, don't just focus on BMW, Mr. V-Tech brought up Lexus, Audi, etc. What about those as well?

Right...Acura avoids these issues by leaving most of this stuff off their car. That's how they're "better"; got it. And again, don't just try to focus on BMW (under some vain assumption that I'm a BMW fan boy), let's hear the rest. This whole thing strikes me as an assertion based on facts not in evidence.

Again, I have the same response as 2). Even if it is universally "true" I'd gladly concede this point in favor of an interior that's put together properly (no misaligned parts such as the piss poor installation of AC vents on the 3G TL), no prematurely fading and cracking dashes (again 3G TL), no mismatched body panels (WDP especially), no brakes made by fisher price, and no exploding transmissions.

Yumcha

What...? Makes no sense if Acura has moved away from the convention of giving their cars nouns for names (i.e. Integra, Legend)...They are using the letter/acronym convention and it seems to be here to stay (RDX, MDX, TL, RL, ILX, NSX)...?

dom

^ , he's heard its a possibility. Maybe its a trim level. "RL - Legend Edition" or "Type-Legend"

Or maybe its not happening. But his sources are usually pretty reliable.

YEH

Never been inside of an RL (don't know anyone who has one), but the auto pubs have all praised it for its "old school" Japanese luxury interior, whereas the fit and finish of the LS460 has dropped off from the LS430.

Bingo.

The S Class is the flagship of the Mercedes lineup, but the SLS is the "halo" model (or SLR if you count models not currently in production).

Legend2TL

My brother's had 5 BMW's which I've worked on 4 of them. I also know a BMW tech who's been wrenching them since 1977 (he drives a E32 7 series), both of us agree there is still room for improvement on BMW electrical connectors. I recently replaced the HID on a E60 530i. There are four electrical connectors, two are very nice (nice plating, crimping, O rings). Two are POS.

Your opinion but IMO it's not even debatable, BMW still uses some poor electrical connectors. However they have also come a long way from the 870's/80's/90's.

On Audi's I still hear and see of some occasional systematic problems. MB have really improved as well, some fo hte 90's were a very black period for them. BMW has come the furthest of the big three Germans in terms of reliability and quality.



Acura's have fuel pumps and oil coolers on all models. Pretty damn reliable since I've never ever heard of any going bad.

You're throwing in the 3G TL into the mix which I already posted is not up to 2G RL standards. The 2G RL's are built in Japan and have wonderful plastic, fit/finish, leather, and other quality materials. It's few downgrades are the use of mixed fake and real wood, that IMO is a nono. AFAIK, there have never been any RL 5AT problems outside of norm.

Yumcha

@ Type Legend...

ttribe

Let's assume this is "truth" for a moment. Does it really warrant the comment of - decontenting the RL "down" to the level of a 5, A6, etc. Be honest here...set aside the bias. Honestly? Electrical connectors?

I can just imagine it now - "Yes Mr. Salesman, that 550i is fabulous. It's beautiful, powerful, comfortable, handles like a dream, but dammit I just can't deal with those electrical connectors. I'm going to go buy a Honda instead."


Right, so you're going to say the RL is "better" than the 5, A6, etc. because of a rash of (solved) problems on ONE version of the E60 5 series (the 535). One version. Never mind the 528. Never mind the 545 and 550. That makes sense. How does that relate to Audi, btw? Oh, and again, how does that justify the notion that the RL would be coming "down" to their levels?


Fine, focusing again just on the RL. The RL's leather is up to snuff with the BMW Merino leather? Audi's interiors are, by far, the best in the business at that price point. Do you really thing the RL's interior stands up to an A6's? Please...be honest here.

Audi's MMI system is head and shoulders above Acuras telematics and nav in the RL. The lone exception may be the RL's ability to handle DVD-A (and even that's debatable given the status of the format). I drove an '11 335 for a week as a loaner recently and the newest iDrive is spectacular compared to the Acura system. Again, DVD-A excepted, it's not even in the race.

Legend2TL

It boils down to reliability and dependability. Something Lexus truly captured with their introduction into us luxury market. It just took the Germans 3 decades to realize it . Zetsche and Schrempp both admitted to as much in early 2000's speeches.

I think you really don't understand how much some people don't want to own unreliable luxury cars. I've watched this with many a Audi owner (some who sued Audi). Three soccer mom's I know went from ML's to MDX's for that simple reason.

A good friend's mother-in-law who's had 3 S-classes going back to the early 80's went over to Lexus, and is amazed on how reliable it is. People generally don't know what the components are in their cars until they go wrong, but they cetainly hear from friends and magazines about those problems wheither it be a Honda 5AT or a BMW with wearing cylinder walls with certain fuel mixes.


I never said that, VTec did. I have not looked at the F10 but the E60 and 2G RL are about the same. There are some things I think 5 does better and there are some things I think RL does better. IMO, there's no leap for either model.

Depends on the Audi interior, there are tiers and it shows sometimes (just like my point of the 3G TL not being up to a 2G RL). Audi make great interiors in general, the A6 and E-class are slightly better than both the 5 and RL IMO (carpet, leather, plastic, trim,...)

The RL has not had a tech update lately, but the latest MDX/tech is a much better system. I was in my brother's friend who just bought one and it rocks. Your Audi MMI statement may apply to the RL but not the MDX. Same goes for the Pilot, a friend just bought a 2012 EX-L and the Nav/tech systems are amazing to say the least.

Neighbor had a 2006 A8, I didn't think much of MMI system it had. He got rid of the A8 (hanger queen in the worst way). Another neighbor just got a 2012 A8L, I'm curious as to how MMI has changed.

ttribe

Well, don't forget that your compatriot at arms, V-Tech, said the RL was superior to the LS460, so be careful where you go here.

Oh good grief, you don't have the foggiest IDEA what I "understand" and don't. We're talking about LUXURY FLAGSHIP cars here and you seem to be rolling out the assertion that the average consumer is going to choose an RL over a 5 or an E or an A6 because of electrical connectors.

You jumped in to defend his post. I directed my question to him, not you. You made it your problem now.

What *things* does the RL do better? No vague statements here please.

Wait, do you want to stick to the RL or not, because when I brought up the TL you got hot and bothered, now you're moving the goal posts as it suits you by bringing in the MDX, etc. Which is it?

ttribe

Just for giggles and grins, let's bring in some third-party comparisons:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html

http://reviews.cnet.com/4504-4_7-0.h...41&tag=compare

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...s/viewall.html

Legend2TL

Your words not mine, so be careful how you reference. VTech is just another person in the ether.


Yeah you just proved how little you know
It boils down to reliability and quality, and how electrical connections are poor in some BMW's. That in turn may affect quality on certain circuits, which in turn affects reliability. Hence some folks really don't want unreliable cars whether they be luxury or not.

Not my problem, just pointing out some simple things IMO that are better in quality on the RL over the 5. Your problem is you don't understand car systems like knowing Acura also have fuel pumps and oil coolers.

Handling of the SH-AWD

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html

I'll even throw in some real people who drove them and compared them as well

You brought up the MMI and TL, so only you can bring up other things. Yeah we all get how you work now

ttribe

You defended his post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

If your argument here is universally true, AND if the RL is truly "better" than the competition, then it should follow that the RL would outsell its competition by leaps and bounds. Is that the case?


No one forced you to defend VTech's statements. You took that one on yourself.

It was self-evident that I was making a smart-ass remark about your inclusion of the turbo chargers in your statement.

I'll concede the SH-AWD. It's a technological marvel. What else?

The MMI? It's an infotainment system in Audis; how is that out of bounds?

I did bring up the TL and then backed off when you called me on it. I thought that was fair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem