Moog-Type-S

Some old Honda/Acura....."wait another 10 years".

Memo to Honda: Everyone is passing you by.

Yumcha

Passing...? Pffft...they passed already when it comes to performance cars IMO.

At least Honda's strong with the minivan, Honda, and Civic front...Bikes too.

Moog-Type-S

What the J series isn't high tech enough for you?!?!? :wink:

Minivan
Civic sure

bikes...slipping.
DN-01 Wrong direction for your bikes, Honda.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

DN-01 - Joke
Fury - Do they sell?
New VFR - BMW in drag
Not bringing the CB1000R to the US - The Death of Honda Motorcycles.



Honda doesnt have anything exciting in their lineup. I think they've settled into the Toyota rut, sell as many beige refrigerators as possible.

At least Toyota is starting to see the light. I find it amazing that a company that started in racing refuses to make a decent sports car.

Belzebutt

As far as I know Honda's fleet fuel economy is still lower than Toyota's, no? If the problem is public perception then it's a marketing issue not a product mix issue.

Supercars not green? Even F1 is going green guys, and Honda's just following that. I wouldn't rule out that in a few years green supercars will be "cool".

Moog-Type-S

V8 w/ KERS would work for me.

a 1.5 litre hybrid CRZ does not.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I love the thought of a green supercar. Not because of the environmental impacts (what the fuck do I care about global warming?) but because it would save me money at the pump.

And its no secret Hondas marketing campaign in the US over the past decade has been absolutely dreadful.

Everyone is just upset that Nissan brought back the GT-R, Toyota is bringing one supercar and one sportscar to market, and Honda has what? The Insight?

Honda killed the S2000. They killed the NSX (twice). They killed the Integra. They killed the RSX. They killed the Prelude.

As far as the green vehicle BS they keep saying; Im sorry, I dont buy it. The new Pilot gets worse gas mileage then the previous gen (and its uglier too). The Accord gets worse mileage then the previous model. The Crosstour is not expected to have great gas mileage, neither is the ZDX.

They keep pumping out overweight, disengaging vehicles year after year. And the reason they keep doing it? Because grandma thinks its high time she trade in her old car.

Honda doesnt care about the enthusiasts. Its as simple as that. So badly do I want to give my money to Honda for my next car, but I dont think that'll happen.

My absolutely worthless and somewhat off-topic

imj0257

iTrader: (1)

Belzebutt

Eoanou

rofl!

Eoanou

I'll disagree slightly, the Si is always getting better with the 2002-03 model being the exception plus they released a 6 M/T version of the SH-AWD TL. They care about the enthusiasts but it is not enough to warrant building a sports car.

I think Honda is scared because the enthusiast market is small and if they make a flop with their new sports car they'll end up losing a lot of money. They're very conservative and want to take very few risks.

The only recommendation I have for Honda is to allow the sale of the Civic Type-R in the states, but by pre-order only. Sell at least a few thousand over here, people will buy them.

Edward'TLS

I highly doubt we'll ever see a V8 from Honda/Acura at all, as long as Ito-san remains as the top man in Honda Motor Co.

However, I wouldn't mind a "300hp 3.7L-V6 + 100hp electric-motor" hybrid "GREEN" sedan for the Acura lineups.

Costco

Honda is the new Toyota

Edward'TLS

A reminder that the sole purpose of a limited-quantity premium-priced ($100K +) Acura "sport car" is to build up the (non-existing) Acura true-luxury brand image, it's not destined to make big money. A high-praised super duper sport car is the best form of marketing. Every company spends/loses money on marketing. No one expect to get money back from marketing firms.

However, a modestly-priced ($50K-$70K) Acura "sport car" MAY just be able to make some money for the company.

fsttyms1

I Honda is going backwards in direction. There cars are getting less fun, uglier, heavier and they claim they are going green I dont see that either. There feeble attempt at hybrid is years behind toyota, and i dont see the mileage ratings on the cars going up. see them going down. They tout Acura as a luxury division, im sorry they arent unless they are comparing them to themselves. They have nothing that makes them stand out any more (except for bad designs)
Thats my

dom

This doesn't get pointed out enough around here. Well stated.

And lets not forget the absolute joke that is VCM. Talk about pulling the wool of your customers eyes.

F-C

Truly disheartening. It's all great and forward thing of Honda to develop these technologies for the future, but what about NOW?

Moog-Type-S

You wish.

cool joint Subaru coupe, LF-A, IS-F, V8's, V10's, RWD, 7 speed transmissions, Dual clutch transmission...........

Honda? Acura? Nope!

fsttyms1

Bout sums it up. Honda going the opposite direction of every one else

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

This was at the Tokyo Motor Show posted by Honda themselves:



Ironic, no?

dom

You have to be kidding me.

LuvMyTSX

(Cj)

it's almost prophetic

Colin

Everything you see today (and for the next 2-3 years) are the product of thinking 2-3 years ago. At that time, the push WAS for a larger Pilot (for example) because that is the direction the market was headed. (think Hummer's success). The market has changed, more dramatically in 1.5 years than in ANY time in the history of cars. They need to evolve to address these changes.

Edward'TLS

A major lapse in Honda/Acura "thinkers" 2-3 years ago ? Not good enough an excuse.

Honda has been a die-hard follower of superb fuel economy ever since it started selling cars in North America. How ? Because it had many ingenious ways of squeezing a lot more hp from using the same engine displacement than virtually all of it's competitors. As a result, Honda could put in smaller size engines in it's vehicle lineups but still generating more or equivalent hp than it's competing models. Thus, smaller displacement = better fuel economy, and Honda automatically became the leader in best fleet fuel economy in the auto world.

But nowadays, Honda doesn't seem to worry no more about fuel economy, by using increasingly-bigger engines and building increasingly-heavier vehicles. Yes, the market calls for bigger vehicles, but doesn't call for low-output big displacement engines with crappy fuel economy.

What happened to the 300hp direct-injected i-VTEC high output 3.2L-V6 from the world's best engine builder ?

Honda has lost the edge in V6 engine technology. Direct injection, 5+ speed auto box, diesel engine are all ways to achieve good fuel economy whilst maintaining high performance. But Honda doesn't want to follow others' successes, and still struggling to do things the unique Honda way. This has nothing to blame on the direction the market is heading.

On the other hand, BMW and Audi have now moved onto force-induction technology in order to combat the fuel economy problem and at the same time maintaining high performance. Their turbo-/super-charged V6's are generating V8-like power but at only V6 fuel consumption. This is the right decision for the "thinkers".

However, seeing this difficulty, the Acura brand is now moving away from high performance, and is fading out into the "Go Green" jargon.

Honda/Acura DO need to evolve big time.

fsttyms1

Thats BS. I dont buy it. How come ever other manufacturer has/is going ahead with new and innovative products but honda is going backwards. If that statement were true every manufacturer would be in the same boat as honda.

Colin

I disagree. If you drive a turbo or supercharged car in a fashion that it makes V-8 like power, it uses gas the same as a V-8. If you run the car like the EPA tests them, it can look really good on paper but in the real world, Honda's are no more or less efficient than their counterparts engine wise. They may exhibit 1-2 mpg less, but IMO that is more due to the 5AT and that is being remedied now (though slowly).

As for what they were thinking years ago as they pursued SUVs etc.? I know that they were responding to a segment that begged for Honda to make SUVs that felt like "Honda's" I guess if 'enthusiasts' feel left out of the plans, that's just a little tough. Since 2001. SUV and Odyssey sales far surpassed Prelude, Integra coupe, CL and Accord coupe figures in both quantity and profitability.

I'm not sure if you're answering me based on the context that I was replying to. I'm unclear what 'boat' you're referring to when you say 'others would be in the same boat' as Honda.

The point I was making was that cars take a long time to bring to market. Honda must feel that if a vehicle is already bast the 'point of no return' they must go ahead with the car, ala ZDX and Crosstour. Even if this doesn't jib with their current view of where the market is headed.

So in a sense, every manufacturer is in the same boat if I understand what you're saying. The market is changing, and they must change too. Some will respond by dropping models, some brands will just go away. Some might choose to build a bad car, but take a government bailout if they fail. Do you honestly think the market is NOT changing?

Costco

you know what I meant

^thats what I meant.

JD23

Honda may not be making the vehicles desired by enthusiasts anymore, but many people are going overboard with their assessment of the "grim" situation at Honda. If I only read some of criticism here, I would have thought that Honda was the company that went bankrupt or was losing billions of dollars per quarter, not GM, Chrysler and Ford. Even Toyota has fared worse than Honda recently. I probably won't buy a Honda or Acura in the near future unless AWD is added to the TSX, but I still understand some of Honda's decisions from a business perspective.

SpicyMikey

Agree. We almost have to qualify our comments beforehand as either; business or enthusiast. From a car lovers perspective, who can be happy with what HMC has been doing. Although debatable, most would agree there's nothing much exciting happening over there.

However, if you put your business hat on, they are doing well and making smart moves. A comment I recently posted in the LFA thread was made with my business cap on. Basically I said; WTF are they thinking coming out with a car that is 4 times more expensive than their most expensive offering. But that's another discussion. Point is, if you own HMC stock (which I do not) then you are looking at these decisions much differently and are probably glad you don't own Toyota stock (down more than 50% in the last 3 years). For that I applaud Honda since that's really the reason they exist; to make money for their shareholders.

Costco

I'll agree that Honda is making the right business moves, I've never denied that. If I did, I was wrong. But to make, it only makes sense to post from my point of view, the enthusiast. If anything, I prefer all the automakers to be dead-even sales-wise.... it only means they'll have to work harder to deliver a product that is more competitive with regards to features, price, performance, etc.

I'm pretty mechanically inclined. I do pretty much all the work on my car. I pay for everything so of course I want bang-for-your-buck, reliability, etc. but I want a car that stirs my soul, whether it comes to driving it or even just looking at it. With regards to those two things, Honda and Acura have both been disappointing lately when you compare it to some other manufacturers, financial situations aside.

I don't own a single share of any stock, let alone an automaker's stock. Like I said though, I do care about bang-for-your-buck though I can play devil's advocate and try to fit the target demographic's mindset. Still, I usually see it as pointless to debate it, but that's just me. I also have bought all my cars used so really, at least to the automakers my opinion doesn't matter too much.

On another forum I'm on (4G F-Body/Corvette) I'm usually almost always on the defensive side, trying to show people that there's more to Hondas and imports in general than riced-out Civics and "plain jane" Accords. I feel like its ideal to keep an even-keel when it comes to discussion... bias only clouds peoples' judgment. I may have a ton of interest in GM and Honda mainly, but I truly have no loyalty.

I love playing devil's advocate, and I'm open enough to agree with almost any point of view. But in my heart, I don't give a rat's ass if Honda goes down in a ball of flames or even starts selling six-figure cars and sells more of them than Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini combined and is more profitable than any of them. I'm not saying or trying to lay down guidelines for what we should discuss (its an open forum, and I'm just a member, after all) and I understand the influence that sales success plays in the role of R&D and product planning.... but in the big picture, it means absolutely nothing to me.

dom

I just want to know what they have planned in the 10-20 years leading up to their Hydrogen dream.

3.8L J anyone?

Costco

I would speculate, but it would either be too depressing, or it would be aiming way too high. Please prove me wrong Honda/Acura

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I dont buy that either. How much have they spent on the NSX project? Easily millions of dollars. And yet they still cancelled it.

Im going to wear my business hat with my next statement:

Honda and Acura(especially) need the NSX. It wasnt meant to sell at the same rate of Accords, or even Insights for that matter. It was meant as a halo car. Its the same thing the GT-R is for Nissan and the LF-A is for Toyota. It stirs excitement. What is Hondas halo car? A family sedan? What about Acuras? Walk up to anyone on the street and they will struggle to give you the Acura lineup. Most people stop at Integra.

Acura has no brand identity because they dont have a halo car. If they dont have an identity, they wont sell, and that's happening now.

Takanobu Ito held a Q&A for North American reporters at Honda HQ in Tokyo on October 22. One journalist asked about Honda withdrawing from F1. His response?

I understand F1 is an expensive sport to participate in. But thats where most of Hondas previous innovations were born. If they give up trying to compete with manufacturers on the track, how are they supposed to compete in showrooms?

JD23

Given the strict restrictions that currently exist in F1, it's not as useful for testing new innovations as it was in the past. BMW has taken the same route as Honda and canceled its F1 program effective at the end of this season. Would you level the same criticism towards BMW?

Colin

Well, I know that the production dies were already cast for the ZDX and that the line was already set up. This was not true for the NSX replacement. This is the difference.

Costco

I think the glaring difference there (again from an enthusiast perspective and I'm sure the regular consumers notice too) is that BMW is using V8s and V10s, using CF parts, and using a dual-clutch transmission..... and Acura is using..........

Colin

This is incorrect in the strictest sense. Honda as always said that in modern racing there is little direct transfer of technology from racing to the road cars. F1, Indycar, ALMS, and Touring Car all serve different purposes. BUT. in F1 Honda engineers were directly involved and the main benefit was the training it provided 'in the heat of battle' (in Indycar and ALMS, HPD makes the engines). This might explain what they're talking about:
http://dreams.honda.com/#/video_ra

They're thinking about the next 100 years, most people here are thinking about their next car.

But given what the future holds (who really know anyway) do you think they'd start development on a new engine family from scratch in today's climate? They may continue with revisions of current V-8s etc, because they already have them, but if they didn't would they start now?

At this point, I guess we can 'cry over spilled milk' that Honda didn't do a V-8 10 years ago, or we can move on.

Costco

I've definitely moved on.

It's fine by me.... one (or two) fewer lineups of cars to look at when I'm looking at a new car, which means less work for me. My brother is also looking at a new truck/SUV to tow and carry stuff with, but the lack of V8 torque pretty much crosses off any Honda models off his list.

Colin

That's good for you. Why do so many here continue to 'cry'? Move on, and be happy with your choices. I certainly don't judge others' desire to leave the brand, but I continue to be baffled why those that do leave, feel they need to judge those that stay? (not saying you, but in general)