AZuser

It comes down to the image Acura wants to project though. A luxury car with cloth seats will not help Acura's image as a luxury brand, IMO.

The (base) ILX is starting to look like nothing more than a Civic with an Acura badge on it.

Take away the badge. If the base ILX is $24K, why not get a Civic EX-L with navi for the same price?

If the base ILX is $25K or $26K, that's even worse of a deal for what you get.

Kool Aide

Image? Value Luxury Image is what they're shooting for.

Civic w/Acura badge? People wanted a return to the Integra days, and here it is.

Why not but a EX-L? I think that most will agree with you and buy the Civic, but ~10% will see value in a longer warranty or (maybe) a better dealer experience, or maybe the (supposedly) better interior quality. Something the Civic has been roundly criticized for.

Its not going to please everyone, but the target is only 40K a year so it doesn't have to try to please everyone. I am really surprised that there is still no Tech+6MT or 2.0L+6MT.

Legend2TL

BMW have non-leather seats (leatherette) in base models. The 1, 3, and 5 series have non-leather seating in base models with leather as a option.

biker

+1, the Euro models usually have some really nice cloth/suede materials.

doopstr

Up until 2009 you could order a Lexus ES with cloth seats.

doopstr

I suspect these are the base seats. Cloth with fake leather trim. Heat in the base seats? I bet no.
http://www.acura.com/future/ILX#5

biker

That base model will be like a Civic DX - it exist in theory, but you're unlikely to see it on the lot.

Black Tire

Sad at what Honda/Acura has become. What made the company was sporty hatchbacks, coupe and sportscar. Now they have none of that. They have lost they're entire focus. Look at Hyunda/KIA is doing. Even Toyota are bringing back sport small cars.

KillerG

Because not everyone will see the car market the same way we do and pick up on the nuances,

And because a civic will always be a civic. People are still gonna pay for this badge, whether or not we on Azine think its a joke

myron

iTrader: (4)

Acura already has a civic with a Acura badge on it in canada. It had it for a while now. There was an acura EL before, and CSX after that. People still bought them. Not as much as civic but there is quiet a few of Els and CSXs around

CarbonGray Earl

Before people start using the Civic-integra argument, I'd like to see/drive this thing first. Even the non-Vtec integras 5MT were a blast to drive, all the way down to the RS.

The fact that you are relegated to a 5AT in the base model makes me wonder how far in that civic:integra, civic:ILX analogy we could go.

Edit: I'm only referring to driving experience. This thing may sell like hotcakes, even if us 'enthusiasts' don't like it.

phile

granted this is a poor showing on Acura's part, but for 24K, I'd rather have the ILX than anything looking remotely like the Civic.

F23A4

I wont go as far as to compare the ILX to the Civic yet...mainly because the current Civic is a piece of garbage. (My wife's uncle picked one up a couple of months ago. Dodge Caliber quality with Honda badge. ) I do want to see how it compares to something like the Mazda3, which seems to be the most comparable competitor.

Costco

I'd be willing to wager that there are quite a few uninformed people who wouldn't be able to tell the difference between leatherette and leather. On the other hand, anyone who hasn't been living under a rock for their entire lives instantly knows the difference between cloth and leather.

My educated guess is that the general perception of leatherette is better than cloth in a "luxury" car.

biker

In the US, yes - in Europe less so.

4cruizn

Pretty sweet ride for sure. Not sure if it's already been mentioned here but I'm getting some inside looks at the ILX and I've already been behind the wheel of both the 2.0 automatic and the 2.4 6-speed. I'll be sharing my experiences on part of the Acura Facebook page dedicated to the ILX.

http://www.facebook.com/Acura?sk=app_296232597109442

VTEC Racer

Thanks for the heads up! It's great that Acura is giving a sneak-peak to true enthusiasts such as yourself. Looking forward to reading your review.

batman

Where is the K23A. Lost forever??? I read the spec sheet and think 2004 TSX.

Ken1997TL

Except it'll be cheaper, have higher content per dollar and be great on gas

The K23 simply doesn't 'cut it' as far as CAFE and profitability.

F23A4

It would have been great in a limited production TSX (along with the SH-AWD). Alas, it was an experiment that ended in failure.

Kool Aide

I would rather have seen the 8000 RPM F22C in the TSX as a Type-R or S. It wouldn't have had the torque of the K23, but it would have been more inline with past hot H/A cars. It would have had the added benefit of not 'needing' AWD, and could probably have used the manual transmission from the current TSX.

F23A4

Sorry, the F20/F22 have a power band that's useless in a sedan weighing 3,400lbs....hence the need for torque over hp. (Yeah, I know: torque is to the avid Honda fan what garlic is to a vampire.)

My 12 Accord EX-L has 190hp/162lb-ft, where the 190hp sounds decent but it doesn't come until 7000rpm. I'd gladly sacrifice 10-15hp if I could get 10-15lb-ft more torque.....which it seems like will be the case with the upcoming 9th generation Accord.

Kool Aide

Maybe a K22 with iVTEC could have gained enough extra torque? Anyway, I certainly wouldn't have wanted a Turbo in the TSX. The lag was bad enough with the intercooler right over the engine, if they re-plummed it for a front mounted intercooler, I'd guess the lag would have been worse. And don't forget, till the 6MT in the current TL, there wasn't a manual that could have handled the output of the K23.

Legend2TL

Agree, but could you imagine what the AZ drama queens would say if a RL standard model came with non-leather seating like the 5-series?

F23A4

Indeed, and that would have put you in the minority of the enthusiasts on Azine.

batman

The rdx was fun with the lag, weight and bad mpg. K23/6MT/SHAWD TSX wouldn't light up the streets in sales but it would make those lucky enough gitty like a school girl.

Edward'TLS

That's why the existence of the V6 TSX : tons of low-end torque when compared to the small I4, and, the best part, NO turbo lag.

SSFTSX

V6 TSX also has excellent fuel economy. Matches 2013 BMW 328i.
I am not sure ILX has more content per dollar. If it is at $28K loaded 2.0L. it is way underpowered with 150bhp (24/32, heavier car with 17inch rim) at this price and only thing is pushbutton start. People will feel that let down in power compared to TSX. Even EX Accord with 190bhp feel way slower than 201 TSX.
Thickness of front and rear seats and thickness of glass will become obvious among Acuras.

VTEC Racer

Or how about if the base RL came with a 4-cylinder like the 5-series?

ttribe

Not a fan of BMW's approach on either front. Absolutely ridiculous given the prices even on a base 5.

Kool Aide

This is true and that car accounts for 1% of total TSX production. While a MT might have perked things up a bit, it still would have been FWD. And since MTs typically account for 5-10% of sales, such a car would have been in short supply indeed.

Kool Aide

This is true. But enthusiasts are AZ are not buying the majority of cars. It does go back to the 'influencer' arguement where they have an effect on the people who seek them out for advice knowing they are 'car guys/gals.' So the question becomes balancing what the 'influencers' want with what the buying public at large (seems) to want and answering the question of 'how much influence they (really) have?' For example, I love manuals, I've only had manuals amongst all my cars. But I cannot influence someone set against them to buy one.

I remain convinced that few would have bought such a car as a K23, SH-AWD, 6MT TSX. Especially when you consider what it might have cost. That drivetrain in the RDX already costs $36K to high 38K. If you add in the extra cost of a very limited production 6MT AND the 20% 'made in Japan' surcharge (accounting for the yen at 80 to the dollar), and you'd have a $40K+ TSX.

Then people would complain that it "only has 240 hp" and that "for that money, I could buy XXX from a 'real' luxury brand" It's an interesting 'thought experiment' but not something that could be realistically accomplished.

SSFTSX

K23 SH-AWD, 6MT TSX would not have cost more than RDX provided they used K23 as standard engine across the line up. Infact it would even have lower the per unit cost for RDX as the same engine would be in two vehicles.

RDX FWD starting price is around $32k. the same should have been for TSX 2.3T. instead you get $35K starting price V6. your not going save $3K with V6 fuel economy alone. Put 6speed Auto 2.3T combo and fuel economy will be as good as V6.


There is only 10bhp difference between Accord and TSX but TSX is 2.2 second quicker to 0-100mph. despite being 60lbs heavier.

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...en-talents.pdf

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2009-acura-tsx.pdf

F23A4

The TSX should have been geared more towards being a 3-series/IS type of vehicle, particularly given the direction in which the 4G TL migrated and the advent of a lower entry level model (the idea of which I suspect was conjured up somewhat prior to the 2012 Chicago auto show).

That last argument you can make with ANY comparison. (i.e.: why by an Evo X @ $40k when I could buy a 335i xDrive, etc,...)

As for the "only has 240hp", that particular tune was intended for RDX consumption...and wouldn't necessarily be the same for other K23 applications.

Kool Aide

Point 1: Well, the current TSX would have been 'born' around 2006-2007 for it's 2009 debut. I doubt there were plans for a lower model at that time. As I recall, it was onward and upward with the Tier 1 talk. So we're discussing what the TSX could have been with the benefit of hindsight. (which as we know, is always 20/20).

Point 2: This is why the Evo sells in the hundreds and the 3 series sells in the hundreds of thousands. Acura obviously chose the path that sells 40K vs 4K (if that much) per month. My point is that at a certain price point, customers move to the 'higher badged' car, even if it has lower content or performance. This is true at all points on the pricing scale. If a Yaris gets too expensive, people buy a Fit and on up price scale. MDX aside, Acuras seem to fare best below 40K. Not saying I like it, or that trying to change it isn't a worthy goal. Just that currently, it is (somewhat) a statement of fact.

Point 3: This is true but we're moving waaaaay into 'hypothetical land' with a maybe powertrain, at a maybe price with a maybe car. As an intellectual pursuit, it's ok, but eventually it runs down the same 'Acura fails route' that derails every intended conversation.

LiQiCE

imho one of the biggest problem is that virtually all Acuras share their platform with Hondas.

The TSX can never truly be an IS/3 Series competitor when it is a rebadged Euro Accord. Not from a car enthusiast standpoint at least.

Perhaps the ILX will be able to pull it off as there is less differentiation on an entry level luxury car then as you progress upwards. Plus the ILX is the first Acura with a beak that doesn't look so hideous

Acura needs the platforms to become more flexible or come up with some platforms that can be designed from the ground up as an Acura.

Just for comparison - look at Lexus, the IS, GS and LS are all on unique (to the USA) platforms. Even though they share platforms with cars sold outside the US, the platform is geared to Luxury / Performance. The ES being the standout in the car lineup that shares a platform with the Camry.

Acura can only go so far when designing a car built on a chassis for a Honda. A FR design would be a nice start

It'd be nice too if they didn't worry so much about a lower end model needing to have less horsepower than a higher end model. BMW gives you the choice in all of their lineup - doesn't seem to hurt them.

Although, that said - other than the NSX, the RL is the only car that is on its own platform and it is not exactly inspiring.

I understand that it would drive up the price - but maybe Acura needs to get a little more pricey to give itself a better image.

phile

http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=1048046

I dunno...I think maybe <25K would've been a better pricing considering the entry level model has no-HID, no leather for what is essentially a very good looking Civic EX.

dom

Lets see what the market says....

F23A4

I don't think that's bad pricing, particularly as a loaded Civic surges past the $24k mark. There would need to be some pricing separation.

As Dom indicates, the market will dictate if the ILX is the next Fit/CRV when it comes to popularity OR if we'll ultimately see another one of these Tetsuo Iwamura quotes again:

"In the case of the [insert Honda/Acura model here], I'm really disappointed because that's a nice car, [with] very beautiful styling, and it gives very good driving performance as well as packaging. But yet, we went a bit too far."

Yumcha

So, just to confirm, the CSX is gone as of next year?