fsttyms1

Not really its honda. They have been disappointing us for years now. If they dont we wont be sad as we are expecting crap from them. Now if they happen to wake up, actually go a planned direction, take control of what they are building and actually make a decent product then we will actually have something to be happy about. But like i said, none of us are expecting it.

mrdeeno

Considering the way Acura's been going, I think it's best to be pessimistic about them. If they do decide to change directions for the better and surprise us, it'll be a pleasant surprise. If not, we can say we were right about being pessimistic. Either way you look at it, being pessimistic wins!

PG2G

Pretty much. I'm not expecting a damn thing.

SpicyMikey

Not sure if you made that first statement tongue-in-cheek, but I actually agree with it and think that may be true. Stay vague and confusing when you actually don't know what you mean. Avoid explaining yourself.

Regarding the second sentence; I totally agree there also.

Colin

I'm not sure how to view it either. I'd guess that the ZDX sits atop a 3 model SUV lineup and the RL atop the 3 car sedan lineup.

Allen-

I've always wondered about this. Its kind of off topic, but again its not. If Acura thinks they can't compete without RWD, why not fix whats wrong with SH-AWD. Front-bias. Have an incabin control for the system.

The first setting is FWD-biased and gives rear wheels 0% of power. It can shift power between left and right wheels during hard acceleration. I'm not sure which wheel is more effective during FWD cornering... And if one of the front wheels loses traction for more than 5 seconds the system shifts some of the power to the rear wheels. Once traction is regained, sends it all back to the front. That would kind of be a safety feature incase the car is sliding off course. Then again this isn't the setting everyone drives fast in so intrusion would be minimal unless you choose to drive hard in it.

Second setting is where the power is divided between front and rear axles equally. Every wheel has equal power until it slips then that wheels power is given to the other. Say if the front left wheel is spinning, the power for that wheel would go to the front right wheel. The power is not shifted from front to back, only left to right. This setting would be good for snow, I'm guessing.

The third setting would be RWD-biased. The power would go to the rear wheels only. If one of the rear wheels loses traction, the power goes to the other. Only if both are slipping or if one is slipping for more than 15 seconds the power go to the front. Naturally, this setting would be hesitant about sending power to the front as its the "sport" setting. The power would shift to the outside wheel like SH-AWD does now. This setting you would use for track events, or if you just liked the feel of RWD.

Since Acura's slogan is advance, and the revised AWD system would advance you, the slogan would be incorporated in the setting names. The system as a whole would still be called SH-AWD, but the settings would be labeled advanceF, advanceE, advanceR. Which stands for front-biased, equally-biased, and rear-biased, respectively.

For sport models, such as the Type-S, there would be a power distrubution deactivation button. Activate it and the power will not be "axle shared." Say you are in advanceR powering through a curve and all the power is at the outside wheel. The rear wheels begin to slip, the power shifts to the front wheels to keep you on course and prevent oversteer. Well you want to slide through the next one. Press the button and when the rear wheels begin to slip through the next turn, the power will not be shifted to the front allowing you to "drift" through the curve.

It offers FWD economy, AWD security in low traction areas, and AWD security during hard cornering if wheel slippage occurs, and RWD feel.

I'm not even sure if this system is possible, its just kind of a fantasy. I'm sure there are some flaws, and some of it is overkill. It would probably weight alot, as I'm not even sure what kind of mechanical equipment you would need. But being able to chose from front-biased to rear-biased would be cool.

knavinusa

That system would be similar to Subaru's adjustable AWD system, which allows you to adjust the front/rear bias manually. While it sounds good to have such a robust system, it's also complicated to implement which is at least part of the reason Acura is sticking with FWD based AWD.

Belzebutt

The whole reason why SH-AWD is front-biased is because Acuras are so front-heavy. The traction follows the weight distribution of the car. If they fixed the huge front overhangs and the way the engines are so far forward, the cars could look better and could have a more rear-biased AWD system like Audi. But that costs money and takes the kind of balls (i.e. investment) that Honda just doesn't seem to have lately.

Edward'TLS

SH-AWD and Quattro(-AWD) are both band-aid solutions to applying high engine power (< 290hp) to the performance-inferior FWD chassis.

Nothing beats the simple RWD chassis which can take virtually unlimited horsepowers.

This is one of the major reasons why Audi will never catch up with BMW and MB in sales volume. However, the tide will turn when Audi decides to offer RWD chassis as base models and make available Quattro as an upgrade option, exactly like BMW and MB.

If Audi can only get this far with FWD chassis, I don't see how the ex-Honda-CEO Takeo Fukui thought he could resurrect Acura into a "Tier-1" brand when he was still in charge.

dom

Does Audi have any plans to develop a RWD chassis?

Edward'TLS

Unfortunately NO !

It will be a super-major undertaking to revamp the many vehicle chassis and the large number of the entire Audi model lines. VW has it's secret agenda too, with respect of the potential of RWD Audi's threatening the upping end auto brands such as Porsche.

On the other hand, with Acura's relatively few model lines, it is much easier to get the job done, except that the current Acura brand direction is all screwed up.

Edward'TLS

The latest RL sedan is also a rear-biased FWD-chassis AWD system, just like the one from Audi.

It's all on the factory tuning. The latest SH-AWD TL sedan should be using the exact same AWD system as the SH-AWD RL.

But I don't know if the SH-AWD TL is a rear-biased system or not ?

darmok

Pardon me for interrupting what seems to be a fantasy discussion ungrounded in technical facts...

It's so simple! There are no substantive technical issues here; all that's needed is another knob! Lord knows there's enough of them in the TL's cabin already. Acura can probably get a fantastic volume discount at this point.

You've got your cause and effect entirely backwards. AWD systems similar to those that Audi uses on most of its cars tend to improve distribution by adding more weight to the back (though how much it would add beyond the already substantial weight of the torque-vectoring unit is unknown to me). But it's quite possible to have a rear-biased AWD system in a front-heavy car: for example, look at the Subaru Legacy GT Spec B, which used a 45/55 front-rear torque split with a 57/43 front-rear weight distribution. That's not too far off the TL SH-AWD's 59/41; some easy tweaks would get the Acura into the same ballpark. The A4 itself is 55/45 front-rear.

The real problem with the Acura is its use of a power take-off unit on the front differential, which is similar to the Haldex system that Audi brands "Quattro" on the A3 and TT. This is contrasted to the Torsen system that is used on other models which is a true limited slip center differential.

I'll note that despite the technical disadvantages of Acura's system, the actual numbers suggest that SH-AWD holds its own. The biggest problem (if you ask me) with the TL right now is just that it doesn't have enough power.

The front overhang problem would be fixed if Acura went back to mounting its engines north-south instead of east-west. It's got nothing to do with the choice of AWD system.

Ah. That explains the dominance of high-power RWD machinery like the Gallardo, the GT-R, the 911 turbo, and of course the Veyron.

Belzebutt

You're not entirely correct in your characterization of the latest Audi chassis. A typical FWD chassis from Honda/Acura has a 60/40 weight distribution. On the A4 it's 55/45, which is really close to the Mercedes C300 (something like 53/47) and probably even close to some BMW models.

Most importantly, the car doesn't have a huge nose like your typical FWD car so it looks like a RWD car without being one. And judging by the number of quattros I see out there, that's the typical Audi configuration they designed for, not FWD. The proof is the recent wins of the S4 against the 335 in automotive mags. If this platform can outhandle a BMW in the eyes of a critical reviewer, then clearly there's no drawback to it.

Acura's nowhere near that, the SH-AWD is an add-on to an inherently FWD platform.

Of course we should all keep in mind that for 99% of buyers, all these cars drive just fine.

I don't think RWD is the magical ticket to success. I think it's the whole package, and some brands get closer to it than others. Audi has already outsold BMW in Europe by the way, and that's with their AWD/FWD platforms. Marketing/branding has a lot to do with BMW's success, not just that the cars are good.

Belzebutt

The A4 is it. Except if you want the rear wheels to be powered you get the front ones too.

Edward'TLS

A RWD chassis is one with which engine power is designed to be applied to the TWO rear wheels.

Audi has no dedicated RWD chassis whatsoever. Otherwise the base R8 would be RWD, not the heavy-ass Quattro R8.

The base A4 is still a FWD sedan, go figures.

Edward'TLS

You have missed my point. My point is not on which auto maker has the best front to rear weight distribution.

My point is focus on the lack of RWD chassis for both Audi and Acura in high engine power applications, and on the fact that their AWD applications are to remedy the deficiency of FWD chassis in handling high engine power (> ~290hp).

There is no deny that all Audi platforms are FWD based. That's why the base-trim (low engine powered) A3, A4, and A6 are all FWD sedans.

In high performance trims (supercharged V6, V8, V10), Audi is forced to drive power into four wheels on it's FWD chassis, or risk making it's FWD cars to handle like a dog when high dose of hp is driving solely the two front wheels.

This is where the FWD chassis falls short of the RWD chassis. With today's auto technology, FWD cars are good up to around ~290hp. Above that, FWD cars will exhibit serious shortcomings in maintaining good handling dynamics, whereas RWD cars will have no problem handling 300+ hp. Sure one can put 300+ hp onto the front wheels, but the resulting car is only good accelerating in a straight line.

Europe is in the higher lattitude which demands AWD capability. BMW and MB are now catching up in AWD offerings in almost all available model lines. In the southern belt of North America, especially in California which is US's biggest auto market, AWD is less than popular as RWD in terms of luxury automobiles.

Edward'TLS

What dominance ?!

Do you mean the following (no-sarcasm) real HIGH POWER RWD ones ?

- $194K RWD 997 GT2
Porsche creates the RWD GT2 by deliberately dumping the AWD system in favor of lighter weight for maximum track performance,

- 1287hp RWD SCC Ultimate Aero,

- 806hp RWD Koenigsegg CCX,

- 750hp RWD Pagani Zonda R,

- 627hp RWD infamous McLaren F1 road car,

- 624hp RWD Maserati MC12 GT1,

- 550hp RWD Ford GT,

- entire RWD Ferrari line-ups,

- and even the upcoming Japanese-origin 552hp RWD Lexus LF-A.

fsttyms1

Forgot the

CTS-V

ZR-1

Belzebutt

I think you're missing the point that in real driving it really doesn't make much difference, and your point falls apart completely when you see that a BMW-loving mag like Car & Driver rated the S4 higher than the 335i, including in handling.

The point is that 1) Audi's A4 chassis is as close to a RWD as it needs to be in order to compete with the best RWD chassi on handling, 2) in reality most buyers can't tell the difference between driving a FWD and a RWD so it doesn't affect sales that much.

Also consider that just a few years ago the maximum "acceptable" hp for a FWD car was something like 200, after that people complained about torque steer. Today there are FWD cars that push 300 hp and yet through use of various devices they have as much or less torque steer than before. It's just not THAT big a deal.

Actually Europe's climate is very temperate and similar to the US despite the higher latitude. People there don't need AWD either, but can get it on their Audi if they really desire RWD-like handling, just like in the US. If they just want a good-looking luxury car for driving to work I'm sure most won't care if it's FWD or AWD.

Teh Jatt

from TOV

http://vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=868825

fsttyms1

Whooolly crap look who posted.

fsttyms1

My whole problem with this statement and others by honda is to be honest their line of Hybrids SUCK. Hopefully they come up with some better technology to at minimum equal Toyota/Ford Hybrid systems.

dom

Where the hell did Jatt come from.

Anyway, Which to me just means more cars based off the Honda Accord which =

CarbonGray Earl

So the US is getting a CSX?

(Cj)

CarbonGray Earl

Great.

the saving grace would be if they made a type-r or bring the mugen rr over. Riiiiiiigggghhht....

Edward'TLS

The S4 is from Audi's high performance tuning division, whereas the 335i is from BMW's regular auto division. So how valid is your point when start comparing high performance tuned cars with regular road cars ?

How about comparing apple to apple, and compare the A4 with the 3??i and the C??0, and compare the S4 with the M3 and the C55-AMG ?

I agree that in reality most buyers can't tell between driving a < 280hp FWD and a < 280hp RWD cars. But putting a 290+ hp high power engine in the package, and the FWD one will be handling so bad that it will be left eating dust. Then it is AWD to the rescue for the high power 290+ hp FWD cars => Audi, Acura.

About 9 years ago, the max. hp for a still-decent-handling FWD car was 260hp (Acura CL-S). Now it is approx ~280hp. I've still yet to see a 300hp FWD car that can still handle well. Even today Audi and Acura have given up on tuning out a decent-handling 300hp FWD car by mandatory equipping AWD with anything above ~280hp.

Much less torque steer is not sufficient. The 300hp FWD car must have ZERO torque steer, in order to full-throttle power out of a turn, especially a very tight turn. Gadgets that cut torque in order to prevent torque steer aren't very helpful here when they are in fact reducing engine power and slowing down the acceleration. All the while, a 300hp RWD car is able to enjoy pulling away from the same turn with ease at wide open throttle.

Once again, it's AWD to the rescue.

Edward'TLS

mrdeeno

Anyone wanna bet it's gonna be an SUV type vehicle like the ZDX?

PG2G

Isn't the S4 on the same level as the 335, where the RS4 and the M3 are the ones that compete?

biker

Even Honda wouldn't be dumb enough to keep adding SUV/CUVs to their lineup when what is needed is a proper sedan.

fsttyms1

Not necessarily. Thats about what im putting to the wheels and i have very minimal tq steer and have zero issues getting the power down out of a turn.

mrdeeno

Color fixed.

knavinusa

Nope. The S4 is meant to be the middle ground between the 335i and M3. Audi always places their S models a step higher than the competition's sportiest production model but a step lower than the purpose-built performance car. They have the RS to compete with those.

CL6

The Lemon Sucker was far worse than the Power Plenum.

SpicyMikey

That's probably a good example of what NOT to do. Acura should not follow Subaru's lead. Granted, that Alpha Romeo style grill was poorly implemented, but they could have worked with it and made it a signature grill for Subaru with changes. I think that's what Acura should do. Move away from the TL implementation (it doesn't work) and more towards the TSX proportions. The concept is fine and it's already becoming a recognizable icon grill on the roads. When I see a TSX coming at me, it's easily recognized and seems aesthetically pleasing enough to me.

Belzebutt

Not at all valid. The S4 is not fundamentally different and isn't from a "different division" than the A4. It has upgraded powertrain and brakes, yes, just like the 335 does over the 328. This new S4 is to the A4 what the 335 is to the 328, if anything it's slightly above the 335. Just look at the pricing. This is not an M3 or AMG-type car.

And again the whole point is that for buyers who want performance an AWD car can be perfectly acceptable and even beat a RWD car.

Yep, that's exactly why Audi doesn't really need a RWD car to compete with BMW, and Acura could pull it off too if they designed an AWD car platform that doesn't put as much stuff over the front.

Allen-

Don't hold your breath. lol

The most exciting thing about Acura lately is the controversial styling. Everyone sits around waiting to call ugly on the next design.

Edward'TLS

Audi deliberately creates the "S" and "RS" high performance divisions in order to set them apart from the regular "A" regular road car division, just like the high performance "M" division from BMW and the high performance AMG division from MB.

The 335i belongs to BMW's regular road car division, in the same way as the A4 to Audi's regular road car division. Both the 335 and the A4 can be ordered with sport suspension and bigger wheels directly from the factory. However, the 3-series still has many engine option to choose from, but the newest A4 has unfortunately lost the high power V6 option. This is a big minus point for Audi for no longer offering high power engine option for the new A4.

The S4 is more than a regular road car. It belongs to the high performance "S" division, and is equipped with high power engine, track-tuned suspension, bigger brakes, and big tires/wheels. The RS4 is another step up in performance and is equipped with even more powerful engine, even bigger brakes, and even wider tires.

In the same way, the M3 from the "M" divison and the C55-AMG from the "AMG" division are factory tuned similarly as the S4 and the RS4.

As a result, it is very obvious that even the sport-suspension-equipped 335i won't be in the same league as the S4 in the handling department. So apple-to-apple-wise, it's the S4 vs the M3/C55-AMG, and the A4 vs the 3-series/C-class.

In terms of base pricing,

S4 sedan = $52,500

335i sedan = $40,300
M3 sedan = $54,850.

So pitching the S4 against the 335i is like pitching the M3 against the A4.

If the S4 can't beat the M3 or the C55-AMG, tough luck, then the S4 is just not good enough as a special tune high performance car.