Acura: Development and Technology News
#1961
Considering the average American household debt, I think something like the CSX is all we Americans can afford as well. We just pretend to be capable of affording more.
#1962
Go Big Blue!
Audi is not a luxury brand yet since it's sales numbers really don't show it to be for mid-level and flagship models. However I would put Lexus in the luxury catagory since it's model range and sales numbers show it to be in the same class as MB and BMW. Perhaps in a few years or a decade Audi will be there but not now.
August 2009
Mid-Level
1. Mercedes-Benz E-Class - 4,671
2. BMW 5-Series - 3,536
3. Lincoln MKS - 1,370
4. Lexus GS - 669
5. Infiniti M - 618
6. Volvo S80 - 565
7. Audi A6- 561
8. Cadillac STS - 337
9. Acura RL - 149
10. Saab 9-5 - 52
Flagship
1. Mercedes-Benz S-Slass - 1,031
2. Lexus LS - 880
3. BMW 7-Series - 862
4. Audi A8 - 109
August 2009
Mid-Level
1. Mercedes-Benz E-Class - 4,671
2. BMW 5-Series - 3,536
3. Lincoln MKS - 1,370
4. Lexus GS - 669
5. Infiniti M - 618
6. Volvo S80 - 565
7. Audi A6- 561
8. Cadillac STS - 337
9. Acura RL - 149
10. Saab 9-5 - 52
Flagship
1. Mercedes-Benz S-Slass - 1,031
2. Lexus LS - 880
3. BMW 7-Series - 862
4. Audi A8 - 109
If we measure a brands "luxury" based on the average car on the road we'd have to conclude Acura is far more luxury than BMW. However, if you measure it by looking for the sales on high end cars then we see a different picture. However, I still think the "average" car for a brand is part of the equation. As a result, whoring out overpriced shitboxes for $32k hurts the brand. A brand's image is boosted by "exclusivity". It's what worries me about Porsche's new direction (and this rumor from Acura). If Porsche follows BMW and MB and start selling cars below the Boxster, then every badge whore will start buying them and the brands image will suffer (as did BMW and MB in my opinion). If Acura starts selling cars in the $20k range again the image is destroyed even further.
Last edited by SpicyMikey; 09-05-2009 at 09:41 AM.
#1963
Audi is not a luxury brand yet since it's sales numbers really don't show it to be for mid-level and flagship models. However I would put Lexus in the luxury catagory since it's model range and sales numbers show it to be in the same class as MB and BMW. Perhaps in a few years or a decade Audi will be there but not now.
August 2009
Mid-Level
1. Mercedes-Benz E-Class - 4,671
2. BMW 5-Series - 3,536
3. Lincoln MKS - 1,370
4. Lexus GS - 669
5. Infiniti M - 618
6. Volvo S80 - 565
7. Audi A6- 561
8. Cadillac STS - 337
9. Acura RL - 149
10. Saab 9-5 - 52
Flagship
1. Mercedes-Benz S-Slass - 1,031
2. Lexus LS - 880
3. BMW 7-Series - 862
4. Audi A8 - 109
August 2009
Mid-Level
1. Mercedes-Benz E-Class - 4,671
2. BMW 5-Series - 3,536
3. Lincoln MKS - 1,370
4. Lexus GS - 669
5. Infiniti M - 618
6. Volvo S80 - 565
7. Audi A6- 561
8. Cadillac STS - 337
9. Acura RL - 149
10. Saab 9-5 - 52
Flagship
1. Mercedes-Benz S-Slass - 1,031
2. Lexus LS - 880
3. BMW 7-Series - 862
4. Audi A8 - 109
Try to sell 4 cylinder Benz/BMW on A4 price range or even A5? or try to sell small CUV at $50K price or supercar at above $100K.
there are markets in the world where sale increase is between 50 to 90%.
http://www.reuters.com/article/press...09+PRN20090901
AUDI US SNAPSHOT
A3 479
A4 3,823
A5 877
A5 Cab 44
A6 561
A8 109
Audi Q5 1,496
Audi Q7 394
R8 85
TT 189
AUDI US SNAPSHOT
A3 479
A4 3,823
A5 877
A5 Cab 44
A6 561
A8 109
Audi Q5 1,496
Audi Q7 394
R8 85
TT 189
Last edited by SSFTSX; 09-05-2009 at 11:20 AM.
#1964
AZ Community Team
You always put wrong comparision. A6/A8 are basically 7 years old designs.
Try to sell 4 cylinder Benz/BMW on A4 price range or even A5? or try to sell small CUV at $50K price or supercar at above $100K.
there are markets in the world where sale increase is between 50 to 90%.
Try to sell 4 cylinder Benz/BMW on A4 price range or even A5? or try to sell small CUV at $50K price or supercar at above $100K.
there are markets in the world where sale increase is between 50 to 90%.
Jaguar already had a supercar XJ220 and Ford with their GT neither makes them a luxury maker (although Jaguar in the past made some great luxury cars that had typical British reliability).
The fact that a A8 is almost 10X less sells than a S-class proves my point.
#1965
Doesn't matter since even if they had twice their sales volume they've still not in MB and BMW league. The only problem Lexus has is the GS is poor selling.
Jaguar already had a supercar XJ220 and Ford with their GT neither makes them a luxury maker (although Jaguar in the past made some great luxury cars that had typical British reliability).
The fact that a A8 is almost 10X less sells than a S-class proves my point.
Jaguar already had a supercar XJ220 and Ford with their GT neither makes them a luxury maker (although Jaguar in the past made some great luxury cars that had typical British reliability).
The fact that a A8 is almost 10X less sells than a S-class proves my point.
BMW/MB cant sell a a 4 cylinder car in $40K+ region. neither they can sell small CUV in $50K region. Audi era is just begining or V6/V8 starting next year.
Ford GT is never in league of R8 or R10.
rest of the world where most of luxury sales are happening of MB/BMW/Lexus dont agree with your assumption. Audi is clear winner.
http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...r_audi_r8.html
America's Best Handling Car: The Winner - Audi R8
Which brings us to our winner, a near-unanimous choice from Pobst through our road-test staff. "In another world compared with the other cars here,"
America's Best Handling Car: The Winner - Audi R8
Which brings us to our winner, a near-unanimous choice from Pobst through our road-test staff. "In another world compared with the other cars here,"
#1966
AZ Community Team
And what about 7 years age difference?. S is even more updated with LEDs.
BMW/MB cant sell a a 4 cylinder car in $40K+ region. neither they can sell small CUV in $50K region. Audi era is just begining or V6/V8 starting next year.
Ford GT is never in league of R8 or R10.
rest of the world where most of luxury sales are happening of MB/BMW/Lexus dont agree with your assumption. Audi is clear winner.
BMW/MB cant sell a a 4 cylinder car in $40K+ region. neither they can sell small CUV in $50K region. Audi era is just begining or V6/V8 starting next year.
Ford GT is never in league of R8 or R10.
rest of the world where most of luxury sales are happening of MB/BMW/Lexus dont agree with your assumption. Audi is clear winner.
Haven't seen the rest of the world's figures but with US market Audi is definitely a loser compared to MB/BMW/Lexus.
#1967
#1968
Burning Brakes
I don't doubt the GT can compare to the R8 V10 but it's certainly not a "league" above it. Even the V8 does fine against comparably priced sports cars (think 997 GT3).
#1969
AZ Community Team
http://www.stangbangers.com/05_FordG...GT_Article.htm
#1970
At least Legend2TL provided numbers to support his point. SSFTSX stated that the Ford GT was never in the league of the R8, without any evidence whatsoever.
#1971
Actually the GT was in a higher performance league over the R8 and argueable even the R10. Motortrend turned a 11.2 sec 1/4 mile with a trap speed of 131MPH. Haven't see a R10 get near that yet.
Haven't seen the rest of the world's figures but with US market Audi is definitely a loser compared to MB/BMW/Lexus.
Haven't seen the rest of the world's figures but with US market Audi is definitely a loser compared to MB/BMW/Lexus.
It has smaller offerings the BMW/MB. A4 is on 4 cylinder engine alone. S4 is now entering the market. new A4 cabrio is not here yet. Diesel is not here yet. neither in A4 nor in A6 unlike MB/BMW products which have diesel options in both SUV and Sedans. Full size SUV just got updated. Midsize SUV is not here yet. Q5 is ony 182inch long and Q7 is 200inch. There is space for another SUV off around 190inches.
There is no competiton to 1 series sedan and hatch backs in that price range dont sell anyway. It is just smaller offerings and despite that it has one of the best months in US. trend definitly going up. what will happen when they put twin turbo in R8V10?. Audis are the masters of turbo tech. Ford is not in that league. you always compare apple to oranges.
here it is competing against Ferrari 430. $300K car vs $150K. it loses only by two points. It is understandable it is 600lbs heavier than Ferrari with AWD losses. So it needs turbo engine.
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...6429147ac4.pdf
#1972
those numbers are meaningless for straightline performance when one is forced induction engine and second is not. one has the design flavor the other is unwanted and has no scope on global scale. Even bankrupt Mitsubishi can do it with sufficiently large engine forced induction.
#1973
those numbers are meaningless for straightline performance when one is forced induction engine and second is not. one has the design flavor the other is unwanted and has no scope on global scale. Even bankrupt Mitsubishi can do it with sufficiently large engine forced induction.
Whether you like it or not, the Ford GT was a supercar. It's kind of sad that you can't appreciate it because it wasn't made by Audi.
#1974
Senior Moderator
As for the CSX for the Canadian Acura market, please note that the population in Canada is only 1/10 that of the US population, and thus the Canadian purchasing power is at best 1/10 that of the US. When compounded by the much higher Canada tax rates and much lower disposable income that the Canadians are earning, Canadians do not share the same auto buying patterns as the US people.
In the US, the best selling car is either the Camry or Accord (mid-size/full-size class). Whereas in Canada, the best selling car is the Civic or Corolla (compact class) which is one size down than the Camry or Accord.
As a result, CSX sits well as an entry-level Acura in Canada because it is exactly one size down compared to the TSX which is the entry-level Acura in the US. That's all we Canadians can afford !
Its not a bad car and its made in NA which means it won't be expensive. All I'm saying is American's shouldn't get too excited about this base 'Acura' as it will likely be what we've been getting up here for some time. Based on the next gen Civic of course.
#1975
You'll Never Walk Alone
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Exactly, when everyone knows that the el-cheapo RSX model line was axed simply because it was preventing the Acura brand to move upscale, it seems highly illogical for Acura now to bring the RSX-replacement back, unless the Acura brand has completely given up on it's plan to migrate upscale.
Thus, the statement :
"Bringing back the RSX compact-size car will only further move the Acura brand down-market, and this was the exact reason why the el-cheapo RSX was axed in the 1st place."
Thus, the statement :
"Bringing back the RSX compact-size car will only further move the Acura brand down-market, and this was the exact reason why the el-cheapo RSX was axed in the 1st place."
#1976
AZ Community Team
#1977
Honda Fanboy
That's because it is not an official statement. Leave it up to the sensationalists to blow it up out of proportion though.
#1978
Second A4/S4 is competing against twin turbo 335. and supercharged has much better reliability than putting two turbos.
Always compare smaller displacement less cylinder forced induction engine against larger capacity engines. thats the correct way.
So A4 2.0T is valid comparision to non turbo 3.0L I6 from BMW.
#1979
Again wrong comparision. Ford engine is 5.4L super charged. Audi is 5.2L. Ford has bigger engine with forced induction. It would have been better comparision if it was 4.2L supercharged from ford just like 580bhp RS6.
Second A4/S4 is competing against twin turbo 335. and supercharged has much better reliability than putting two turbos.
Always compare smaller displacement less cylinder forced induction engine against larger capacity engines. thats the correct way.
So A4 2.0T is valid comparision to non turbo 3.0L I6 from BMW.
Second A4/S4 is competing against twin turbo 335. and supercharged has much better reliability than putting two turbos.
Always compare smaller displacement less cylinder forced induction engine against larger capacity engines. thats the correct way.
So A4 2.0T is valid comparision to non turbo 3.0L I6 from BMW.
#1980
If a GT can outperform the R8 for approximately the same cost, why is a 0.2 liter difference in displacement even relevant? You also have to remember that the GT is several years older than the R8. If the GT were released today, I assume it would have better performance than it did back in 2004.
there is already 600bhp version without turbo.
#1981
Burning Brakes
In any case, I've seen reports of the R8 V10 getting into the 11s (which is reasonable) so it's not as if the GT is much faster.
Last edited by knavinusa; 09-06-2009 at 02:12 PM.
#1982
LOL exactly. There has long been talk of a sub-NSX sports coupe. What if this and a new Civic based entry debuted within 6 months of eachother? One much higher than current offerings, and one lower? Does it move the brand up or down? Is the glass half empty or half full?
#1983
That's not his point. He's saying the R8 V10 costs about as much as a Ford GT but performs better. It has nothing to do with the size of the engine. We're talking about performance only. The reason the R8 costs so much has to do with things other than just performance. You gotta give credit where it's due - I like Audi too but the R8 isn't the fastest supercar. What the R8 does well is combine luxury and performance in one package. I'd take a R8 over a Ford GT myself, because the interior is obviously nicer.
In any case, I've seen reports of the R8 V10 getting into the 11s (which is reasonable) so it's not as if the GT is much faster.
In any case, I've seen reports of the R8 V10 getting into the 11s (which is reasonable) so it's not as if the GT is much faster.
it is not lack of technical ability but not canablizing Lambo sales Audi makes world cars not specific to each market.
http://brandtao.wordpress.com/2008/0...ion-with-audi/
While Audi were only able to produce the excellent R8 due to Lamborghini input. Common parts, platforms and engines have led to a numbing of distinctive brand expression and design compromise between performance products with too obvious genetic sharing.
Herr Winklemann is quite possibly right in saying that Lamborghini owners may not be too concerned by electrcal systems or hoses and filters borrowed from a parts bin in Ingolstatt. But why buy an Italian supercar which looks like an Audi, drives like an Audi and sounds like an Audi? Particularly if Audi’s own super-car is, just possibly, better.
As Herr Korner said ‘When it’s better to have a unique solution, we should do it.’
While Audi were only able to produce the excellent R8 due to Lamborghini input. Common parts, platforms and engines have led to a numbing of distinctive brand expression and design compromise between performance products with too obvious genetic sharing.
Herr Winklemann is quite possibly right in saying that Lamborghini owners may not be too concerned by electrcal systems or hoses and filters borrowed from a parts bin in Ingolstatt. But why buy an Italian supercar which looks like an Audi, drives like an Audi and sounds like an Audi? Particularly if Audi’s own super-car is, just possibly, better.
As Herr Korner said ‘When it’s better to have a unique solution, we should do it.’
#1985
#1986
AZ Community Team
That's a great way to illustrate the brands "luxury" pull. I've always struggled with this term. Seems like the wrong word since most of the cars MB or BMW sells are C300's and 328's with no luxury features in them and vinyl seats. They offer the luxury of a Honda Civic in most cases.
If we measure a brands "luxury" based on the average car on the road we'd have to conclude Acura is far more luxury than BMW. However, if you measure it by looking for the sales on high end cars then we see a different picture. However, I still think the "average" car for a brand is part of the equation. As a result, whoring out overpriced shitboxes for $32k hurts the brand. A brand's image is boosted by "exclusivity". It's what worries me about Porsche's new direction (and this rumor from Acura). If Porsche follows BMW and MB and start selling cars below the Boxster, then every badge whore will start buying them and the brands image will suffer (as did BMW and MB in my opinion). If Acura starts selling cars in the $20k range again the image is destroyed even further.
If we measure a brands "luxury" based on the average car on the road we'd have to conclude Acura is far more luxury than BMW. However, if you measure it by looking for the sales on high end cars then we see a different picture. However, I still think the "average" car for a brand is part of the equation. As a result, whoring out overpriced shitboxes for $32k hurts the brand. A brand's image is boosted by "exclusivity". It's what worries me about Porsche's new direction (and this rumor from Acura). If Porsche follows BMW and MB and start selling cars below the Boxster, then every badge whore will start buying them and the brands image will suffer (as did BMW and MB in my opinion). If Acura starts selling cars in the $20k range again the image is destroyed even further.
For every
944 (done really well) there was a 924, even worst would be the 914
CTS there was the Catera, even worst would be the Cimmaron.
ES350 there was the ES250
and so on
Sometimes the entry vehicles capture the market really well and other times it really dilutes the brand. I really liked my wife's Integra but I never considered it a luxury care even thought it was really well made. We wound up getting a Legend 1G but I wonder how many kids with Integra's and RSX's ever moved up to other Acura products?
One funny case is a S/W developer my wife works with. She's owned several Integra's and RSX's. When Acura announced they were discontinuing the RSX, she bought another one and gave her current RSX to her niece as a graduation present (it was ~3 years old) since she wanted to have a newer RSX since she intended to keep it a long time. She's single and never at all been interested in any other upscale Acura.
For every 914 there was a
#1987
AZ Community Team
Forgot to add for every
MB C-class there was the 190E
MB C-class there was the 190E
#1988
Go Big Blue!
Also, I think a brand should have a theme. American makers realized that years ago and created separate badges for different product groupings and markets. I know American brands are nothing to look up to these days, but branding and marketing is not the reason they are hurting. They are right about that one. The European brands should get off their high horses and take a page from the Americans (and Japs). They'd sell more cars.
The more a brand tells a story, the more value and allure it has. Porsche told a story until recently. I think the venture into SUV's and sedans disjointed the theme and hurt them more than it helped. VW evidently agrees and wants to get that story right again. They also recently reported they want to take a page from Honda/Acura and start packaging options like them. It's about time.
#1989
Audi is not a luxury brand yet since it's sales numbers really don't show it to be for mid-level and flagship models. However I would put Lexus in the luxury catagory since it's model range and sales numbers show it to be in the same class as MB and BMW. Perhaps in a few years or a decade Audi will be there but not now.
BMW's Chief Executive Helmut Panke back in 2005 admitted in an article in Buisness week that Audi is on par with them.
In Europe, Audi nearly matched BMW's sales last year with 559,428 vehicles to BMW's 579,632. Its most powerful versions of the A8, with 8- and 12-cylinder engines, outsell Mercedes and BMW models with comparable engines. "In the last 15 years, Audi has made an incredible advance. They did a super job," says BMW Chief Executive Helmut Panke. "They wanted to be fully accepted as a premium brand, and they made it."
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...1/b3924003.htm
With Audi currently outselling BMW and its flagship A8 outselling its BMW and MB rivals for several years now in other parts of the world, by using this sales theory then MB and BMW must not be luxury brands anymore.
The midsize and flagship models of Audi are on par with BMW and Mercedes and their low sales numbers in NA are mostly due to shortage of certain models (ie upcoming A7, etc) and most importantly Marketing.....These are things Winterkorn also mentioned in the article back in 2005.
Audi has had a tough time with marketing in NA and lets face it, fabricated articles like "60 Minutes" uninteneded acceleration episodes from back in the late 80's sure didnt help and almost made Audi leave the NA market.
#1990
Go Big Blue!
What I took from his posting was that a brand can be considered Luxury (i.e. premium) if they can show to successfully sell product a "premium" price point. Not necessarily if the product is premium. In fact, I think that's a key sign of a premium brand; You can sell an inferior product at a higher price than your competition. That's proof your brand has "value" in itself and people will pay for it in itself. Within that there are degrees. Where BMW and Audi fall in relation to each other is more debatable.
#1991
AZ Community Team
I found your statement and theory rather odd in determining how to define a luxury brand.
BMW's Chief Executive Helmut Panke back in 2005 admitted in an article in Buisness week that Audi is on par with them.
In Europe, Audi nearly matched BMW's sales last year with 559,428 vehicles to BMW's 579,632. Its most powerful versions of the A8, with 8- and 12-cylinder engines, outsell Mercedes and BMW models with comparable engines. "In the last 15 years, Audi has made an incredible advance. They did a super job," says BMW Chief Executive Helmut Panke. "They wanted to be fully accepted as a premium brand, and they made it."
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...1/b3924003.htm
With Audi currently outselling BMW and its flagship A8 outselling its BMW and MB rivals for several years now in other parts of the world, by using this sales theory then MB and BMW must not be luxury brands anymore.
The midsize and flagship models of Audi are on par with BMW and Mercedes and their low sales numbers in NA are mostly due to shortage of certain models (ie upcoming A7, etc) and most importantly Marketing.....These are things Winterkorn also mentioned in the article back in 2005.
Audi has had a tough time with marketing in NA and lets face it, fabricated articles like "60 Minutes" uninteneded acceleration episodes from back in the late 80's sure didnt help and almost made Audi leave the NA market.
BMW's Chief Executive Helmut Panke back in 2005 admitted in an article in Buisness week that Audi is on par with them.
In Europe, Audi nearly matched BMW's sales last year with 559,428 vehicles to BMW's 579,632. Its most powerful versions of the A8, with 8- and 12-cylinder engines, outsell Mercedes and BMW models with comparable engines. "In the last 15 years, Audi has made an incredible advance. They did a super job," says BMW Chief Executive Helmut Panke. "They wanted to be fully accepted as a premium brand, and they made it."
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...1/b3924003.htm
With Audi currently outselling BMW and its flagship A8 outselling its BMW and MB rivals for several years now in other parts of the world, by using this sales theory then MB and BMW must not be luxury brands anymore.
The midsize and flagship models of Audi are on par with BMW and Mercedes and their low sales numbers in NA are mostly due to shortage of certain models (ie upcoming A7, etc) and most importantly Marketing.....These are things Winterkorn also mentioned in the article back in 2005.
Audi has had a tough time with marketing in NA and lets face it, fabricated articles like "60 Minutes" uninteneded acceleration episodes from back in the late 80's sure didnt help and almost made Audi leave the NA market.
IMO their tough times in NA sales are due more to their well known reputation as poor reliability and depenability in Consumer's Reports and other long term reliability reports. The 60 minutes segement was 23 years ago and IMO does not matter today.
Audi has gone through 4 major quality initiatives since the late 70's, maybe this time it will take hold. Nope, Audi is still second tier to MB/Lexus/BMW in the US luxury car market.
#1992
AZ Community Team
I agree the positives must be weighed against the negatives when you start stretching out the price point for a brand, but I generally don't think it's a good idea. MB makes a $500k SLR and a $32k C300. I was in my MB dealership last month looking at the new E and they had a McLaren on the floor surrounded by velvet ropes. I'm sure that helps make the C buyers get a hard-on and sells more C300's. But what does it do for the person considering a $500k car? Is someone in that price range turned off by the lack of exclusivity of the brand? I think so. If I had $500k to spend I'd probably look elsewhere.
Also, I think a brand should have a theme. American makers realized that years ago and created separate badges for different product groupings and markets. I know American brands are nothing to look up to these days, but branding and marketing is not the reason they are hurting. They are right about that one. The European brands should get off their high horses and take a page from the Americans (and Japs). They'd sell more cars.
The more a brand tells a story, the more value and allure it has. Porsche told a story until recently. I think the venture into SUV's and sedans disjointed the theme and hurt them more than it helped. VW evidently agrees and wants to get that story right again. They also recently reported they want to take a page from Honda/Acura and start packaging options like them. It's about time.
Also, I think a brand should have a theme. American makers realized that years ago and created separate badges for different product groupings and markets. I know American brands are nothing to look up to these days, but branding and marketing is not the reason they are hurting. They are right about that one. The European brands should get off their high horses and take a page from the Americans (and Japs). They'd sell more cars.
The more a brand tells a story, the more value and allure it has. Porsche told a story until recently. I think the venture into SUV's and sedans disjointed the theme and hurt them more than it helped. VW evidently agrees and wants to get that story right again. They also recently reported they want to take a page from Honda/Acura and start packaging options like them. It's about time.
I can understand your remarks on the entry cars diluting the brand, but only up to a point. To me a C-class is a decent entry MB, a A-class is not. BMW make more profit from the 3-series than any other vehicle they sell. The sales volume and decent profit margin make for that. When the upper class models go up in price and the volumes go down the economies of scale work against you. So amortization of costs, vendor/supplier cost,... all go up making it harder to make a profit.
I think BMW has done a great job since the 530i came out in the mid 70's to replace the Barvaria, then the 320i replaced the 2002, the new 7 and 6 series, and the even the M1. They really solidified their simplistic model approach but in end alot of others have emulated their model range with a 3/5/7 from BMW C/E/S from MB and so forth.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 09-08-2009 at 02:27 PM.
#1993
Haven't seen any numbers outside of US, but those numbers show my statement to be true interms of sales. I agree that Audi has done a superb design effort for their current range of products. They've captured a nice blend of luxury and performance.
IMO their tough times in NA sales are due more to their well known reputation as poor reliability and depenability in Consumer's Reports and other long term reliability reports. The 60 minutes segement was 23 years ago and IMO does not matter today.
Audi has gone through 4 major quality initiatives since the late 70's, maybe this time it will take hold. Nope, Audi is still second tier to MB/Lexus/BMW in the US luxury car market.
IMO their tough times in NA sales are due more to their well known reputation as poor reliability and depenability in Consumer's Reports and other long term reliability reports. The 60 minutes segement was 23 years ago and IMO does not matter today.
Audi has gone through 4 major quality initiatives since the late 70's, maybe this time it will take hold. Nope, Audi is still second tier to MB/Lexus/BMW in the US luxury car market.
I agree that Audi's poor reputation for reliability in the 90's hurt them along with rebuilding the brand after the "60 minutes" episode, but even after all of that they are still on par with Lexus and starting to overtake BMW and MB in the global market.
I respect your opinion if you think Audi is second tier to BMW/Lexus/MB (it is only an opinion after all and not fact) but unfortunately the rest of the Global and US automotive market disagrees.
#1994
AZ Community Team
I'm talking US numbers so my statement is quite true. Audi's reputation is not only the 90's but up to mid-2000's for problems.
Yep, just my opinion but fortunately the US market sales of A6 and A8 agree with my opinion.
August 2009
Mid-Level
1. Mercedes-Benz E-Class - 4,671
2. BMW 5-Series - 3,536
3. Lincoln MKS - 1,370
4. Lexus GS - 669
5. Infiniti M - 618
6. Volvo S80 - 565
7. Audi A6- 561
8. Cadillac STS - 337
9. Acura RL - 149
10. Saab 9-5 - 52
Flagship
1. Mercedes-Benz S-Slass - 1,031
2. Lexus LS - 880
3. BMW 7-Series - 862
4. Audi A8 - 109
Yep, just my opinion but fortunately the US market sales of A6 and A8 agree with my opinion.
August 2009
Mid-Level
1. Mercedes-Benz E-Class - 4,671
2. BMW 5-Series - 3,536
3. Lincoln MKS - 1,370
4. Lexus GS - 669
5. Infiniti M - 618
6. Volvo S80 - 565
7. Audi A6- 561
8. Cadillac STS - 337
9. Acura RL - 149
10. Saab 9-5 - 52
Flagship
1. Mercedes-Benz S-Slass - 1,031
2. Lexus LS - 880
3. BMW 7-Series - 862
4. Audi A8 - 109
Actually those numbers in the article are from 2005. Audi is actually outselling BMW and MB this year in europe, so your statement still wouldnt be true.
I agree that Audi's poor reputation for reliability in the 90's hurt them along with rebuilding the brand after the "60 minutes" episode, but even after all of that they are still on par with Lexus and starting to overtake BMW and MB in the global market.
I respect your opinion if you think Audi is second tier to BMW/Lexus/MB (it is only an opinion after all and not fact) but unfortunately the rest of the Global and US automotive market disagrees.
I agree that Audi's poor reputation for reliability in the 90's hurt them along with rebuilding the brand after the "60 minutes" episode, but even after all of that they are still on par with Lexus and starting to overtake BMW and MB in the global market.
I respect your opinion if you think Audi is second tier to BMW/Lexus/MB (it is only an opinion after all and not fact) but unfortunately the rest of the Global and US automotive market disagrees.
#1995
6G TLX-S
What I took from his posting was that a brand can be considered Luxury (i.e. premium) if they can show to successfully sell product a "premium" price point. Not necessarily if the product is premium. In fact, I think that's a key sign of a premium brand; You can sell an inferior product at a higher price than your competition. That's proof your brand has "value" in itself and people will pay for it in itself. Within that there are degrees. Where BMW and Audi fall in relation to each other is more debatable.
For instance, the C-class (compact-size-class), the 3-series (compact-size-class), the A4 (compact-size-class), the ISxxx (compact-size-class), the TL (mid-size-class), the Genesis (full-size-class), are all selling at around the same price point.
Then MB, BMW, Audi, Lexus are considered to be luxury brands since they CAN sell smaller cars for the same price as bigger cars for Acura and Hyundai. In effect, buyers are paying more for less. In other words, these cars carry a "premium" price, and thus these auto brands are considered luxury brands.
On the other hand, Hyundai is only able to sell an even bigger car for the same price point. In effect, the car is cheap, and can only carry a "economy" price, and thus Hyundai is considered an economy brand.
Please note that the auto market is self adjusting, such that only luxury and exotic brands can sell premium-priced autos. Auto buyers won't pay premium price for lower-tier-branded products (such as VW Phaeton, Acura RL) nor buy junks from luxury brands (such as Jaguar X-type).
Moreover, it is destined to fail if a lower-tier brand tries to sell premium-priced cars and hopes that will bring up the brand status, without worked hard on the brand recognition first.
It's like a jungle out there, survival of the fittest. Luxury brands sell premium-priced autos, cheap brands sell cheap autos. Any violation will be rewarded by poor sales and axed models.
Using price point as guidelines, it is much easier to see which brands are luxury and which are not.
#1996
I'm talking US numbers so my statement is quite true. Audi's reputation is not only the 90's but up to mid-2000's for problems.
Yep, just my opinion but fortunately the US market sales of A6 and A8 agree with my opinion.
August 2009
Mid-Level
1. Mercedes-Benz E-Class - 4,671
2. BMW 5-Series - 3,536
3. Lincoln MKS - 1,370
4. Lexus GS - 669
5. Infiniti M - 618
6. Volvo S80 - 565
7. Audi A6- 561
8. Cadillac STS - 337
9. Acura RL - 149
10. Saab 9-5 - 52
Flagship
1. Mercedes-Benz S-Slass - 1,031
2. Lexus LS - 880
3. BMW 7-Series - 862
4. Audi A8 - 109
Yep, just my opinion but fortunately the US market sales of A6 and A8 agree with my opinion.
August 2009
Mid-Level
1. Mercedes-Benz E-Class - 4,671
2. BMW 5-Series - 3,536
3. Lincoln MKS - 1,370
4. Lexus GS - 669
5. Infiniti M - 618
6. Volvo S80 - 565
7. Audi A6- 561
8. Cadillac STS - 337
9. Acura RL - 149
10. Saab 9-5 - 52
Flagship
1. Mercedes-Benz S-Slass - 1,031
2. Lexus LS - 880
3. BMW 7-Series - 862
4. Audi A8 - 109
#1997
Haven't seen any numbers outside of US, but those numbers show my statement to be true interms of sales. I agree that Audi has done a superb design effort for their current range of products. They've captured a nice blend of luxury and performance.
IMO their tough times in NA sales are due more to their well known reputation as poor reliability and depenability in Consumer's Reports and other long term reliability reports. The 60 minutes segement was 23 years ago and IMO does not matter today.
Audi has gone through 4 major quality initiatives since the late 70's, maybe this time it will take hold. Nope, Audi is still second tier to MB/Lexus/BMW in the US luxury car market.
IMO their tough times in NA sales are due more to their well known reputation as poor reliability and depenability in Consumer's Reports and other long term reliability reports. The 60 minutes segement was 23 years ago and IMO does not matter today.
Audi has gone through 4 major quality initiatives since the late 70's, maybe this time it will take hold. Nope, Audi is still second tier to MB/Lexus/BMW in the US luxury car market.
No diesel to compete with E/ML class?. Newer A4 cabrio hasnt landed yet. no new M3 competitor yet. no 1 series competitor. A6/A8 are too old.
#1998
I'm talking US numbers so my statement is quite true. Audi's reputation is not only the 90's but up to mid-2000's for problems.
Yep, just my opinion but fortunately the US market sales of A6 and A8 agree with my opinion.
August 2009
Mid-Level
1. Mercedes-Benz E-Class - 4,671
2. BMW 5-Series - 3,536
3. Lincoln MKS - 1,370
4. Lexus GS - 669
5. Infiniti M - 618
6. Volvo S80 - 565
7. Audi A6- 561
8. Cadillac STS - 337
9. Acura RL - 149
10. Saab 9-5 - 52
Flagship
1. Mercedes-Benz S-Slass - 1,031
2. Lexus LS - 880
3. BMW 7-Series - 862
4. Audi A8 - 109
Yep, just my opinion but fortunately the US market sales of A6 and A8 agree with my opinion.
August 2009
Mid-Level
1. Mercedes-Benz E-Class - 4,671
2. BMW 5-Series - 3,536
3. Lincoln MKS - 1,370
4. Lexus GS - 669
5. Infiniti M - 618
6. Volvo S80 - 565
7. Audi A6- 561
8. Cadillac STS - 337
9. Acura RL - 149
10. Saab 9-5 - 52
Flagship
1. Mercedes-Benz S-Slass - 1,031
2. Lexus LS - 880
3. BMW 7-Series - 862
4. Audi A8 - 109
Their sales are climbing too, about to pass Infiniti who is struggling again.
Ford is non premium brand. it cannot charge same price as Audi for similar performance. you have Audi RS6 making 580bhp with lots of torque for turbo engine. similar same engine in Lambo produces 600bhp.
it is not lack of technical ability but not canablizing Lambo sales Audi makes world cars not specific to each market.
it is not lack of technical ability but not canablizing Lambo sales Audi makes world cars not specific to each market.
May I suggest doing some research on the Ford GT. THey sold out the entire production run, reviews were glorious. You might want to go further back and see how the original GT40 did and why its legendary.....
The R8 is superb in V-8 or V-10 form but don't think a "Ford" is a lesser car. Its more that on par with it.
#1999
AZ Community Team
IMO who Acura needs now is a exec like Bob "Captain Crunch" McCurry. He pasted away in 2006, but for a sales/markeing auto exec he really understood what most consumers wanted. He was highly instrumental in the execution of Lexus in the US. One of his greatest feats was getting Toyota Japan to redesign the 3G Camry. Someone with his determination, vision and insight would serve Acura well now.
http://books.google.com/books?id=tIU...0camry&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=Q5Q...201988&f=false
page 247, start of the 1988 Camry amusing story with a good ending
Last edited by Legend2TL; 09-08-2009 at 04:15 PM.
#2000
AZ Community Team
, I agree Audi have great products their last step is to improve the reliabity and then I believe they will compete with the BMW/MB/Lexus crowd.
Also agree on the GT, it was a excellent effort by Ford. They really did a great job keeping the retro look with modern engineering on the GT. It's only negative was the rear crankshaft seal fix which was sub-standard for a car in that league. But that pales with the performance the GT achieved.
Also agree on the GT, it was a excellent effort by Ford. They really did a great job keeping the retro look with modern engineering on the GT. It's only negative was the rear crankshaft seal fix which was sub-standard for a car in that league. But that pales with the performance the GT achieved.
Audi still lacks the prestige of BMW/Benz/Lexus but the PRODUCT is there. They have everything from the FWD A3 to a twin turbo V-10 R8. The next A8/S8 with a V-10 and V-12 is coming. They offer V-8s in their cars and SUVs. They now have supercharged V-6s, they have diesels, they have manuals, DSG and we all know their interiors are great.
Their sales are climbing too, about to pass Infiniti who is struggling again.
Audi isn't a premium brand when it comes to supercars, sorry. R8 sales are not exactly beating 911 turbo sales to the ground.
May I suggest doing some research on the Ford GT. THey sold out the entire production run, reviews were glorious. You might want to go further back and see how the original GT40 did and why its legendary.....
The R8 is superb in V-8 or V-10 form but don't think a "Ford" is a lesser car. Its more that on par with it.
Their sales are climbing too, about to pass Infiniti who is struggling again.
Audi isn't a premium brand when it comes to supercars, sorry. R8 sales are not exactly beating 911 turbo sales to the ground.
May I suggest doing some research on the Ford GT. THey sold out the entire production run, reviews were glorious. You might want to go further back and see how the original GT40 did and why its legendary.....
The R8 is superb in V-8 or V-10 form but don't think a "Ford" is a lesser car. Its more that on par with it.