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My belief is that if you press the mode button while in sport the setting will change to sport+ and then back again if you press it again. In the Aspec model there is no Sport + selection. Like the RDX the sport setting is a viable daily driving option. When I first got my car sport was a little busy, but once the transmission broke in everything smoothed out. I always drive the car in sport. Based on that I’d expect the Sports+ option on the Type S not to be the bear it was in the TLX-1.
Not sure if you owned a TLX A-spec but there is certainly a sport+ mode. I drove mine in Sport mode normally. Sport+ mode in the TLX would revert to Sport mode after shutting the car off. Main issue I had was you had to look down at the console to engage it which is not ideal. The other issue, more of a problem, was the transmission outside of sport+ mode left a lot to be desired. I had a muzzler installed on mine and that eliminated most lag but still it was lacking. The sport+ mode made up for the transmission performance problems but was not a usable mode and not easily engaged at will without distraction. I see this more clearly from having traded it in for an S5 (a real eye opener performance, handling and braking wise) which doesn't need to be in a sport mode to have instant downshifts and response. Frankly I think it was the trans in the TLX V6 that caused all the issues. I had an 07 type S with zero modes and it shifted instantly to the right gear with no lag. The trans in the TLX was by far a huge failure, hopefully they do better and I was a loyal Acura buyer for many years.
Not sure if you owned a TLX A-spec but there is certainly a sport+ mode. I drove mine in Sport mode normally. Sport+ mode in the TLX would revert to Sport mode after shutting the car off. Main issue I had was you had to look down at the console to engage it which is not ideal. The other issue, more of a problem, was the transmission outside of sport+ mode left a lot to be desired. I had a muzzler installed on mine and that eliminated most lag but still it was lacking. The sport+ mode made up for the transmission performance problems but was not a usable mode and not easily engaged at will without distraction. I see this more clearly from having traded it in for an S5 (a real eye opener performance, handling and braking wise) which doesn't need to be in a sport mode to have instant downshifts and response. Frankly I think it was the trans in the TLX V6 that caused all the issues. I had an 07 type S with zero modes and it shifted instantly to the right gear with no lag. The trans in the TLX was by far a huge failure, hopefully they do better and I was a loyal Acura buyer for many years.
I don’t think he realizes you’re talking about the 1st-gen TLX.
Are the 0-60, quarter-mile numbers available in those road tests ?
No 1.4 mile time yet. 0-60, people have been seeing 4.7 others have seen 5 seconds. I've yet to find any real consistency in any of the videos I've seen.
ummmmm that information has been out for at least a month, road tests and pricing was released at least 4 weeks ago.
Think most of us are looking for full instrumented tests from magazines like Car & Driver, Road & Track, ect not vids from YouTubers. Each of the magazines has its own individual way of testing all its cars the same way. Same test instruments, leveling programs etc. That way, say all tests from say C&D, can be compared against all other C&D tests with pretty good confidence of the results being consistent.
Personally the only YouTube comparisons I think are valid are actual Drag Races, Roll Races, Brake Tests & Road Course times with various cars all running together. They are not going to give you specific numbers in most cases, except for road course times, but you can clearly see which car wins each event.
Anything else is simply opinion based which will include any bias the YouTuber bring to the table
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 06-06-2021 at 03:10 PM.
Have driven the 2021 M440i in AutoX & will disagree with you.
Steering was precise in hitting the apex everytime & quick in responding to input. First laps were a little slow as we were not allowed to walk the course like in a regular AutoX. Speeds picked up quickly as we were able to pick out the best breaking zone. They did provide Cliff Notes by putting a red cone at each turns apex. Anyone who has driven an AutoX knows you are always looking down the course not at the current turn so the cones were a big help on an unknown course.
Lots of guys complain about the electric steering & think the hydraulic steering gives road feel. Its just different than hydraulic which is also artificial. What's interesting is I have a BMW 2013 135is MT before BMW "lost its way" An electric steering BMW Z4 M40i 8ZF after BMW "lost its way". Finally the COBRA with manual steering "The Way". The only one that lets you feel the pebbles in the road is the COBRA. The others are all interpretations of what road feel is supposed to feel like. Have no issues driving them back to back quickly as far as the steering goes. So like it some don't but the end result is according to C&D at the Lighting Laps M340 test.
"Years of testing BMW 3 and 4 series allow us to measure the pace of evolution through generational comparison. For example, the M340i arrives at the Turn 1 braking zone traveling 142.3 mph, a mere 2.4 mph shy of the 425-hp M4's speed. And the 340iM's 3:03.2 lap is 10.0 seconds quicker than that of the last-gen 2012 BMW 335i Sport Line and just 2.5 seconds off the M4's time"
The M440 has not done LL yet but should be in this years. If Acura can get the Type-S out the door in time it should also be in it. Hopefully both will do well. Its been posted in the October issue every year but is run at VIR in the spring.
I got to do the same BMW UDE AutoX event so do I get to finally have an opinion now ?
I came away with the same feelings I had from my time with the loaner. That is, the car's grip and handling is superb, but the steering feel is still too numb. There just isn't much by the way of steering feedback to tell you that you're about to exceed the limits of grip. I tried entering some of the turns hot to see what the limits are, and even when the car pushes you wouldn't know from the steering. The entire time, the steering feels composed and competent, which to be fair the car is, but when the car is unsettled the steering just doesn't say much.
Other thoughts: the car feels heavy . The steering feels much more appropriate for a grand tourer, even though the powertrain is fabulous. Chassis is balanced very nicely; you can get the tail to step out and come around lifting off the throttle, and it's quite easy to control the body roll even though I wish there were less of it. I feel like it has the same amount of body roll as my E92 335i, but even when you're hamfisting it through a tight chicane it sticks and grips even when it has no right to. The car is very competent, and very quick, but it's not as fun as it could and should be IMO. I suppose that's what the M3/4 is for... I stand by my initial impression that I prefer the steering feel of the Type S, but I much much much prefer the powertrain of the BMW. Shame that you can't combine the two.
I agree with fiatlux that M440 steering feedback is basically zero. We probably drove on the same track layout, and on the tight corners there, initially I overshot a couple of times and the only way to know the front tires were losing grip was through the body. The steering is precise but in the short span of the autocross event, I could not feel anything from the tires.
Honestly, I feel most non-M BMW all drive the same, everything is very good, and the car has a very large sweet spot to accommodate all kinds of drivings, but lacks excitement if you ignore the powertrain factor. Not pure enough for enthusiasts, or at least for people like me who like 90-00 era cars. M gives you the rawness and directness, but the price also escalated to P-car level for current generation mid-size Ms.
Forgot to add, the biggest impression I came away with is that the San Remo Green Metallic is magnificent. It looks nothing like the color in the configurator and photos online don’t do it justice. Best of all, the gaping grill blends into it quite well and goes from an ugly eyesore to not good but not bad. I have no idea why it doesn’t photograph well but if I were to buy an M440i that would be my pick hands down.
I got to do the same BMW UDE AutoX event so do I get to finally have an opinion now ?
I came away with the same feelings I had from my time with the loaner. That is, the car's grip and handling is superb, but the steering feel is still too numb. There just isn't much by the way of steering feedback to tell you that you're about to exceed the limits of grip. I tried entering some of the turns hot to see what the limits are, and even when the car pushes you wouldn't know from the steering. The entire time, the steering feels composed and competent, which to be fair the car is, but when the car is unsettled the steering just doesn't say much.
Other thoughts: the car feels heavy . The steering feels much more appropriate for a grand tourer, even though the powertrain is fabulous. Chassis is balanced very nicely; you can get the tail to step out and come around lifting off the throttle, and it's quite easy to control the body roll even though I wish there were less of it. I feel like it has the same amount of body roll as my E92 335i, but even when you're hamfisting it through a tight chicane it sticks and grips even when it has no right to. The car is very competent, and very quick, but it's not as fun as it could and should be IMO. I suppose that's what the M3/4 is for... I stand by my initial impression that I prefer the steering feel of the Type S, but I much much much prefer the powertrain of the BMW. Shame that you can't combine the two.
First before we disagree glad you had time to push the car under safe conditions. Personally thought it was a well set up event. Expect the car feels heavy because it is heavy, very close to 4,000lbs depending on how much stuff gets packed into it. Big difference if "feel", hate that word, from my DD BMW which is much lighter. Had 3 Coups two "E" 9X's & a "F". they got heavier & heavier. The G Coupe continues the trend. Easily as big as an older 5 series. My original BMW was a 2004 E46 ZHP & have no problem understanding they are different.
As for understeer warning maybe, maybe not. Its possible the AutoX did not give you the opportunity to push the car up to the point or past coming unstuck. I think the course was set up to prevent it. The only cones that went down we drivers that just sucked got lost & drove over them. Issue was getting up enough speed to stress the front enough. Maybe two places on our course. I power braked the launch & the right hander at the end of the start was sharpe but the car was just not going fast enough to cause a problem. There was one turn a wide 180 that you could tickle the front but you need a fast entry that was hard to manage the way it was set up. I got 1 out of 3 that I had to ease off my circle
Prior to the AutoX ran the car at the the BMW track in Greer SC as part of an BMWCCA M event. Drove the 300ft skid pad till the car came unstuck a few occasions in oversteer (nanny's off). Before the front end goes away it goes into definite vibration that is very easy to feel in your hands. Release the circle slightly & it goes away, pull back into the circle & it comes back. had zero issues with it. Can be muted somewhat if the steering is in "heavy" mode. Did manage a about a 400 degree excursion on an oversteer I messed up. I drive my personal car in individual settings with light steering & slow throttle inputs but with suspension & transmission in Sport+.
Can't define the "fun" quotient for anyone else as I set my car for comfortable high speed cruise even thought its a two seater. Fun runs go to the red car which is 100% pure feedback as the TH guys discovered. I know C&D was unhappy but they drove the 440iX.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 08-06-2021 at 09:06 PM.
Forgot to add, the biggest impression I came away with is that the San Remo Green Metallic is magnificent. It looks nothing like the color in the configurator and photos online don’t do it justice. Best of all, the gaping grill blends into it quite well and goes from an ugly eyesore to not good but not bad. I have no idea why it doesn’t photograph well but if I were to buy an M440i that would be my pick hands down.
Very nice Green a few at the AutoX also were is that color. Last green car I has was a FORD Esquire Station wagon around 1979. Prior to that 2 Triumphs, TR-3A & TR-3B + 1 Morgan+4SS all SCCA cars & all British Racing Green. Current BMW is Black Sapphire. Daughters on order M4 convert is Dravit Gray metallic which also hides the pig snout pretty well. Dark colors do a good job with Bucky Beaver.
Before the front end goes away it goes into definite vibration that is very easy to feel in your hands. Release the circle slightly & it goes away, pull back into the circle & it comes back. had zero issues with it. Can be muted somewhat if the steering is in "heavy" mode. Did manage a about a 400 degree excursion on an oversteer I messed up. I drive my personal car in individual settings with light steering & slow throttle inputs but with suspension & transmission in Sport+.
I can see the points you mentioned. When I cleaned up my corner entries for the last session, basically making sure I did not go in too hot for the tight corners, I think the steering wheel communicates a little more about what the tires are up to. So for example in your M driving session, you probably were already doing fine adjustments to your driving, in such case the steering feedback may be ok-ish. Besides, you own BMW for a long time so you know BMW's language. But for example for me, jumping into an unfamiliar car, on a new layout, initially my driving was all over the place. The more speed I carried into the corner, the less front-end feedback I got, which is counter-intuitive. I feel the back-end is totally fine, with very predictable grip limit and maybe thanks to DSC, the sliding was smooth, gradual and easy to modulate with throttle. Anyway, I am nitpicking, M440 probably drives more organically than Type-S overall, and as we all know blows away Type-S anywhere, any day.
Feel is a very hard thing to communicate to another person. The way I look at it if you have not pushed the car hard enough to actually wash out the front end you don't know what it "feels' like before its gone. You need to step over the line & lose the car. Something you don't want to do with the one you own.
We were specifically told once the wheel starts to vibrate you are done, do not push it any further. The vibration is cause by the tires sliding sideways as they lose traction & are no longer rolling straight ahead on their axles. You need to correct, reduce throttle &/or release the wheel slightly, like right now or you will be in the dirt nose first. Braking on understeer can be tricky. The car is already losing traction & braking can make what's left go away. That said braking also shifts weight back to the front end which should increase your traction. Trick here is it has to be a very light smooth application of the brakes which is beyond most drivers in a panic situation.
Interesting stuff. Personally I think a lot of the critics are way to harsh. They are say a car has issues but in the same piece they are saying its a two ton car. To expect it to have the feel of a 3394 pounds 2003 M3 is just stupid & bitching to bitch. If they want the current descendent of the old E46 M3 they should to be looking at an M240 or M2. Agree the M440i is a true GT car, fast, competent, comfortable transportation. Don't think that's a bad thing.
Interesting stuff. Personally I think a lot of the critics are way to harsh. They are say a car has issues but in the same piece they are saying its a two ton car. To expect it to have the feel of a 3394 pounds 2003 M3 is just stupid & bitching to bitch. If they want the current descendent of the old E46 M3 they should to be looking at an M240 or M2. Agree the M440i is a true GT car, fast, competent, comfortable transportation. Don't think that's a bad thing.
Much like the Type S, I think the M440i (and M340i) is a victim of misaligned expectations. I think most enthusiasts and reviewers are expecting it to be a spiritual successor to cars like the 330i ZHP or 335is; something that handles and feels close to an M car but with less power. After all, this car is supposed to be an "M Performance" car. However, it's really a GT car, and as a GT car it's excellent.
The instructor even went as far as to emphasize: "This is not a razor-sharp track car; it is a GT car that you can drive every day but still do some track things. But if you treat it like a track car and expect it to drive like one, you will be disappointed. If that's what you want, get the M4".
Much like the Type S, I think the M440i (and M340i) is a victim of misaligned expectations. I think most enthusiasts and reviewers are expecting it to be a spiritual successor to cars like the 330i ZHP or 335is; something that handles and feels close to an M car but with less power. After all, this car is supposed to be an "M Performance" car. However, it's really a GT car, and as a GT car it's excellent.
The instructor even went as far as to emphasize: "This is not a razor-sharp track car; it is a GT car that you can drive every day but still do some track things. But if you treat it like a track car and expect it to drive like one, you will be disappointed. If that's what you want, get the M4".
Expectations of past greatness: Think thats a big problem with most of the current crop of writers. Think about this. My old 335is driven by a LL pro did 3:13:8. The M340 did 3:03:2. Cars behind the M340 & in front of the 335is have names like Corvette Z51, Porsche Boxster, Shelby GT-500, Audi RS5, Caddy CT5-V & CT-V, CLS-63 AMG, Quadrifoglio Q4, Audi TT RS, These are varied years but in their times were all very quick cars. The last generation M2 is 1.1 second quicker.
Todays cars are amazing when they get a chance to run but as well as the current M340 does its still 119th on the list. The past is really the past & although the E cars still live in club racing the cars coming out of the factories today were not even a dream when I was active in motorsports.
I see this more clearly from having traded it in for an S5 (a real eye opener performance, handling and braking wise) which doesn't need to be in a sport mode to have instant downshifts and response.
Would you mind saying a bit more about your experience with the S5? I've read that the acceleration lag outside of sport mode is very noticeable but haven't tried it myself. Thanks.
I’ve never driven an RS4 (they’re not offered here anymore) but having driven an RS5 around Willow Springs I’d say that it’s still more of a GT car than a track car. It’s supremely fast, but it plows at the limit and the steering is so-so. It’s just not hardcore enough. I suspect the only car that Audi makes that’s as at home on the track as the M3/4 is the TTRS, R8, and maybe the RS3.
05-19-2021, 07:30 PM
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. The steering feels much more appropriate for a grand tourer, even though the powertrain is fabulous. Chassis is balanced very nicely; you can get the tail to step out and come around lifting off the throttle, and it's quite easy to control the body roll even though I wish there were less of it. I feel like it has the same amount of body roll as my E92 335i, but even when you're hamfisting it through a tight chicane it sticks and grips even when it has no right to. The car is very competent, and very quick, but it's not as fun as it could and should be IMO. I suppose that's what the M3/4 is for... I stand by my initial impression that I prefer the steering feel of the Type S, but I much much much prefer the powertrain of the BMW. Shame that you can't combine the two.
