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Well you could do what I did and quantify the data, the BMW M2 competition ran 73.53s and the Type-S ran 76.66s, or only 4.2% slower overall. Not bad comparing to a ultra high performance BMW coupe.
Never liked using percentages because they can hide reality.
Car salesman A sells 1 car last month & 2 cars this month for a 100% improvement. Car salesman B sells 10 cars last month & 15 cars this month for a 50% improvement. Who gets fired A or B?
4.2% might look really close but its not what it seams.
On a road course 3 seconds a lap is an eternity. On this specific course the old M2 would be a half a minute ahead in ten laps. The current M2 would be a half a minute ahead in 5 laps. Watch 30 seconds tick off the clock before your car hits the line.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 10-02-2021 at 03:00 PM.
Never liked using percentages because they can hide reality.
Car salesman A sells 1 car last month & 2 cars this month for a 100% improvement. Car salesman B sells 10 cars last month & 15 cars this month for a 50% improvement. Who gets fired A or B?
4.2% might look really close but its not what it seams.
On a road course 3 seconds a lap is an eternity. On this specific course the old M2 would be a half a minute ahead in ten laps. The current M2 would be a half a minute ahead in 5 laps. Watch 30 seconds tick off the clock before your car hits the line.
You would be fired for poor analysis of the data, you gotta be smart when it comes to performance analysis.
So for your example
Last month, 11 cars sold, Car salesman A sold 9.1% and Car Salesman B sold 90.1% of all cars.
This month, 17 cars sold, Car salesman A sold 11.8% and Car Salesman B sold 88.2% of all cars.
4.2% is close (not extremely close), but to your point what road course?
A 14.2 mile Nordschleife or 1.9 mile Fiorano Circuit, hence time is only relevant for a particular track.
Hence this is why percentages are used for performance engineering, because all delta parameters (downforce, HP, brake temp) for a given vehicles performance are equated to percentage of change for a particular track.
All the top F1 teams as well as other motorsports use performance engineering to analyze the data and various subsystem changes and their relative impart to overall performance.
Not just for motorsports, many companies from Amazon to FedEx use performance engineering.
So 3 seconds on a lap of the Nürburgring Nordschleife Circuit is a heck of alot less relevant than Fiorano Circuit so percentages give a far clearer picture of comparing different vehicles.
If you think 3sec is eternity on a road course then try 1 minute from a standing start. There are many of these video's that compare a economy car, sports car, and a true race car.
Sports cars are far closer to a economy car than a race car which gives to the reality that most performance road cars really are highly subjective into what performance is.
I think the whole performance metrics argument has it's place - it's interesting for automotive magazines and forums to talk about - but I'll eat my shorts if even 20% of people ever push their car to 7/10's of it's limits.
Marketing and brand reputation count a lot more than actual performance when it comes to sales IMO.
You would be fired for poor analysis of the data, you gotta be smart when it comes to performance analysis.
So for your example
Last month, 11 cars sold, Car salesman A sold 9.1% and Car Salesman B sold 90.1% of all cars.
This month, 17 cars sold, Car salesman A sold 11.8% and Car Salesman B sold 88.2% of all cars.
Salesman A gets fired for selling just 3 cars & 2 months end of story. Sales Manager also gets fired for being stupid & arguing with the boss's decision to fire Salesman A
3 seconds a lap lead in any race, with any cars, at any location, is an eternity, end of story.
You elected to bring in the 3 second spread between the older M2 & the Type-S like it was a meaningful number. The only thing meaningful is in the TH list the Type-S falls behind 30 seconds in 10 laps. If you had selected the current M2 it would take only 5 laps.
The TLX-S is half a mile behind if the average speed is 60MPH. What is interesting is TH has a slow tight track, same type of setup thar Acura used introducing the 4G against the Germans when its was introduced. This is supposed to nullify the speed advantage & demonstrate the SHAWD system.
So I guess we can all agree the TLX-S does not belong on any track.
You listed a 3 second comparison & you did not use the 6 second spread with the current M2. So 3 seconds it is & 3 seconds a lap spread is an eternity on any track for any two cars regardless of how fast they are or how long the track is.
Will see what the TLX-S looks like on a long track if it shows up for the first time ever at Lightning Laps. For a car that is constantly shown in commercials on various track am really surprised that in 15 years it has never been to the event.
The track is 4.2 mile Virginia International Raceway often called the American Nordschleife due to its varied layout. Should Jon bring one we can put this all to rest as there are over 200 cars numbers from a 2019 McLaren Senna, 2:34.9 to a 2015 Honda Fit EX, 3:37.7
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 10-04-2021 at 12:00 PM.
Meh, not racing but comparing relative time performance between different vehicles so as to show there's little difference in their actual performance.
Just math and performance engineering. 4% for the Type-S vs a M2 Competition just shows how close it is between the two vehicles.
And the 3 sec/lap and TLX-S does that belong at the track are also meaningless statements as to length/configuration/condition as well as what it's doing at the track.
You may think a Type-S doesn't belong at a track but that's only your opinion not "we can all agree"
Don't have a pic of it but once at Michigan International Speedway, I saw USPS Postal vehicle doing laps by itself at ~40-50MPH on the banking. Wish I had a pic as it was pretty amusing but guessing they were performing a long term endurance test and rented out the racetrack. So you never know what will be running at a racetrack is the simple moral of that story
Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory
Salesman A gets fired for selling just 3 cars & 2 months end of story. Sales Manager also gets fired for being stupid & arguing with the boss's decision to fire Salesman A
3 seconds a lap lead in any race, with any cars, at any location, is an eternity, end of story.
You elected to bring in the 3 second spread between the older M2 & the Type-S like it was a meaningful number. The only thing meaningful is in the TH list the Type-S falls behind 30 seconds in 10 laps. If you had selected the current M2 it would take only 5 laps.
The TLX-S is half a mile behind if the average speed is 60MPH. What is interesting is TH has a slow tight track, same type of setup thar Acura used introducing the 4G against the Germans when its was introduced. This is supposed to nullify the speed advantage & demonstrate the SHAWD system.
So I guess we can all agree the TLX-S does not belong on any track.
You listed a 3 second comparison & you did not use the 6 second spread with the current M2. So 3 seconds it is & 3 seconds a lap spread is an eternity on any track for any two cars regardless of how fast they are or how long the track is.
Will see what the TLX-S looks like on a long track if it shows up for the first time ever at Lightning Laps. For a car that is constantly shown in commercials on various track are really surprised that in 15 years it has never been to the event.
The track is 4.2 mile Virginia International Raceway often called the American Nordschleife due to its varied layout. Should Jon bring one we can put this all to rest as there are over 200 cars numbers from a 2019 McLaren Senna, 2:34.9 to a 2015 Honda Fit EX, 3:37.7
I think the whole performance metrics argument has it's place - it's interesting for automotive magazines and forums to talk about - but I'll eat my shorts if even 20% of people ever push their car to 7/10's of it's limits.
Marketing and brand reputation count a lot more than actual performance when it comes to sales IMO.
Agree. That said as long as guys want to talk about performance of various cars the total capability of the car is fair game. Agree most will never drive anywhere near theirs cars capability as most cars, TLX-S included, have more capability than their driver does. Other side of the coin is when nothing that can go wrong goes wrong, emergency handling gets real important.
All the attributes that we talk about are the ones that may bail you out in an emergency especially the ability to panic stop & steer at the same time. National Highway does all kinds of crash testing to protect us. I would prefer to avoid the crash in the first place. I believe sports sedans do a good job a this. Some are just better at it than others.
I think the whole performance metrics argument has it's place - it's interesting for automotive magazines and forums to talk about - but I'll eat my shorts if even 20% of people ever push their car to 7/10's of it's limits.
Marketing and brand reputation count a lot more than actual performance when it comes to sales IMO.
+1
In the 90's when the lateral force "wars" were getting more attention in the auto press, the VP of MB engineering said something like this
"a car at 0.8G is most often leaving the road"
Meh, not racing but comparing relative time performance between different vehicles so as to show there's little difference in their actual performance.
Just math and performance engineering. 4% for the Type-S vs a M2 Competition just shows how close it is between the two vehicles. Slow tight track, same type of setup thar Acura used introducing the 4G against the Germans.
You may think a Type-S doesn't belong at a track but that's only your opinion not "we can all agree"
Don't have a pic of it but once at Michigan International Speedway, I saw USPS Postal vehicle doing laps by itself at ~40-50MPH on the banking. Wish I had a pic as it was pretty amusing but guessing they were performing a long term endurance test and rented out the racetrack. So you never know what will be running at a racetrack is the simple moral of that story
Yeah, I rode a bicycle at VIR once expect it might give the mail truck a good run for the gold. Why don't you put up a poll "Does the TLX-S belong on a Racetrack" You might want use a series of easy definitions like, to race a mail truck, to race BEAR on a bicycle, to cruise around in a parade lap, for HPDS, to run track days, grudge match against an M2.
4% for the Type-S vs a M2 Competition just shows how close it is between the two vehicles.
And the 3 sec/lap and TLX-S does that belong at the track are also meaningless statements as to length/configuration/condition as well as what it's doing at the track.
I understand now. Your 4% math is correct. OK lets take the trophy away from the M2 driver & give it to Legend2TL whenever he happens to get to the finish line.
Yeah, I rode a bicycle at VIR once expect it might give the mail truck a good run for the gold. Why don't you put up a poll "Does the TLX-S belong on a Racetrack" You might want use a series of easy definitions like, to race a mail truck, to race BEAR on a bicycle, to cruise around in a parade lap, for HPDS, to run track days, grudge match against an M2.
I understand now. Your 4% math is correct. OK lets take the trophy away from the M2 driver & give it to Legend2TL whenever he happens to get to the finish line.
meh, I've seen ALL sorts of motorcycles and cars at Summit Point Raceway for open track days, there's no silly person at the entrance telling them "the TLX-S (or whatever) does not belong on any track".
As long as they pass tech inspection, obey the track/session rules, drivers sign their waivers and wear the proper helmet they're good to go.
Can be alot of fun too, especially when the Ferrari Club of America rent the track for the weekend
I've seen ALL sorts of motorcycles and cars at Summit Point Raceway for open track days
How many Acura's TL or TLX did you see? They were as rare here as hens teeth even back in the 3G TL days. On the 3G & 4G forum a few ran drags & IIRC one guy did a track day. As for current an slightly older versions have not seen one at VIR. Then to be fair have never seen a current Type-S off a dealers lot & almost no regular TLX2 on the street.
Ran a poll on the 4G forum during a debate asking how many guys have driven at a the track in either the TL or another car & got a number of comments but zero actual divers. Like I said run a poll.
How many Acura's TL or TLX did you see? They were as rare here as hens teeth even back in the 3G TL days. On the 3G & 4G forum a few ran drags & IIRC one guy did a track day. As for current an slightly older versions have not seen one at VIR. Then to be fair have never seen a current Type-S off a dealers lot & almost no regular TLX2 on the street.
Ran a poll on the 4G forum during a debate asking how many guys have driven at a the track in either the TL or another car & got a number of comments but zero actual divers. Like I said run a poll.
Been fun gotta go out.
I see my 3G every day, as to how many at the track who cares?
I see my 3G every day, as to how many at the track who cares?
Expect that works well for you.
When it comes to the TL/TLX not many care & that is exactly the car Honda/Acura builds, think thats my point. You brought up the TLX-S suitability for track day since it would/might pass tech just show up & drive. The Acura engineers though so much of its ability for a track day they took off the stock pads & put track pads on it because the were afraid the YouTubers would crash it when the brakes faded. The same YouTubers that drove like they were on I-95 doing 15mph over.
One group that knew what they were doing & actually pushed a bit C&D checked, were about the only Laguna Seca testers that mentioned the race pads in their review. The others all YT's thought the brakes at LS were just great. Of course they were great, Brembo calipers & racing pads, slow drivers, what's not to like at the track.
They had stock pads on the cars run on the street. Most likely afraid the track pads would not heat up enough to be effective around town. One vid I think was posted here a guy was running an AutoX course & said after a few runs his brakes were going away. Its in this forum if anyone wants to check. Not the first time, C&D doing a 4G test, could not run consecutive laps due to fade.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 10-04-2021 at 02:49 PM.
You're all wrapped up in the Type-S Laguna Seca brake pad conspiracy.
Here's what C&D said
Hitting the other pedal erases speed quickly and confidently, thanks to 14.3-inch front rotors and four-piston fixed calipers. Stops from 70 mph require 165 feet, a few more than the brake feel suggests. An electrically assisted brake booster is tuned to provide a very firm pedal with good bite. While the minimal brake-pedal travel takes some getting used to, after a few miles we're adjusted and appreciative. Acura had us play at WeatherTech Raceway Laguna Seca for a few laps to fully experience the all-wheel-drive system in a safe environment, but in the interest of surviving journalistic abuse on a road course, those on-track TLXs were fitted with track-oriented pads that Acura promises to recommend to interested customers. Back on the street and fitted with the stock pads, the brakes didn't show any signs of fade on brief canyon-road blasts.
Changing out the pads for something more aggressive is fine to me if one was going to a track day event. Acura was honest about it and promised to offer the pad info.
As to
When it comes to the TL/TLX not many care & that is exactly the car Honda/Acura builds, think thats my point.
That's your opinion but is it the truth or false? You nor I have any clue, pretty simple just your opinion nothing else.
Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory
Expect that works well for you.
When it comes to the TL/TLX not many care & that is exactly the car Honda/Acura builds, think thats my point. You brought up the TLX-S suitability for track day since it would/might pass tech just show up & drive. The Acura engineers though so much of its ability for a track day they took off the stock pads & put track pads on it because the were afraid the YouTubers would crash it when the brakes faded. The same YouTubers that drove like they were on I-95 doing 15mph over.
One group that knew what they were doing & actually pushed a bit C&D checked, were about the only Laguna Seca testers that mentioned the race pads in their review. The others all YT's thought the brakes at LS were just great. Of course they were great, Brembo calipers & racing pads, slow drivers, what's not to like at the track.
They had stock pads on the cars run on the street. Most likely afraid the track pads would not heat up enough to be effective around town. One vid I think was posted here a guy was running an AutoX course & said after a few runs his brakes were going away. Its in this forum if anyone wants to check. Not the first time, C&D doing a 4G test, could not run consecutive laps due to fade.
Thought this was fun since Nürburg Ring was mentioned earlier. Looks like the TLX Type-S is traveling in some very fast company hanging close to the M2. Congratulations.
Has the supply started to catch up to the demand? Are dealers still robbing people with ADM? According to cars.com, there are around 150 Type S models on sale in US. That's 3 on average per State which isn't inspiring availability.
Has the supply started to catch up to the demand? Are dealers still robbing people with ADM? According to cars.com, there are around 150 Type S models on sale in US. That's 3 on average per State which isn't inspiring availability.
There are 270 or so Acura dealerships in the US so it’s even worst than the example you used.
and many of those are pending delivery and of those many are presold. I cant keep a Type S on the lot.
I can imagine. I was steadfast against trading my 21 Aspec in for a Type S. Now the itch to do so is becoming more worrisome with each passing day. Lol
So...the dealer who told me they'll do MSRP pulled a snake oil trick when I actually went in. Here's what they put on the window...They said this is mandatory (lol). I told them it's mandatory for me to leave.
So...the dealer who told me they'll do MSRP pulled a snake oil trick when I actually went in. Here's what they put on the window...They said this is mandatory (lol). I told them it's mandatory for me to leave.
That's fucking hilarious!
You're better off getting this beautiful 2021 M340i xDrive (fully loaded) for $57,490. Rarest and best color combo and even has rear heated seats which is incredible. https://www.carfax.com/vehicle/3MW5U9J03M8B65224
Good price on the BMW, but it appears they are having a difficult time selling it.
it was listed at $58,999 on 11-29-21 then dropped to $57,490 on 12-7-21. Today is the 11th. It's just shy of two weeks. Give it time but regardless it's an incredible price for the todays used car market.
Originally Posted by Edward'TLS
^^^^^
Why ?
Nowadays, new vehicles are hard to come by, resulting that the prices of pre-owned vehicles to keep going up like crazy.
A forum members has commented that he could sell his 3 months old car at thousands of dollars more than the price he pay for it when new.
Another thing it seems like except for one the most expensive car. Prices for the 2021 M340 on the Mt Kisco listing start around $52,000 with a number clustered in the $55,000/$56,000 range. Be interesting to see who the dealer is as you left that out. If its a used car dealer most guys would not go near it. With BMW dealers send emails to customers to buy back their one & two year old cars its a big red flag unless it was traded for an MB, Lexus or Audi.
Some of the guys on the M3/4 forum are flipping their cars as soon as the get them & are reordering the cars through MSRP or less dealers. A $92,000 car can go for over $100,000 for a right now sale as opposed to a 4 month wait on an ordered car.
I have been offered $5000 more than I paid for the Z4 from the dealer I bought it from. That means he would have to sell it at or near the original MSRP to make some money on it. Advantage to the customer is the normal warranty continues + whatever the CPO deal is.
The Z4 CPO they had inside the showroom was a twin to mine except for the interior color, red vs black, when I picked up the M4C last week is gone. Don't know what it went for but mine was discounted 16% new in March 2020
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 12-11-2021 at 07:53 AM.
That's why I always ask in email/phone the bottom line price with everything before leaving for any dealership.
As Joe Walsh says, "Walk Away"
Originally Posted by loki
So...the dealer who told me they'll do MSRP pulled a snake oil trick when I actually went in. Here's what they put on the window...They said this is mandatory (lol). I told them it's mandatory for me to leave.
I'm curious, are they at least the Y-Spokes, or are they just adding a phantom charge for the standard wheels (they're both 20" wheels regardless). Still gouging on the price of the Y-Spokes, but it would be criminal if they were the standard wheels.
More than anything, I wanna know what those valve stem caps are made out of. My guess is some cheap bullshit metallic ones that you're not supposed to use on TPMS stems since they like to weld themselves on there after a bit of corrosion sets in. I hate how scummy dealerships are. I honestly don't know if I can think of a worse place I'd want to go than one. Maybe a prison shower ... but even then, it's a toss up.
Yeah, it's like they take off the original rims (and sometimes tires, if switching sizes) and just throw them in the dumpster (ie, no credit ).
My (normally fair) local Acura dealer said something similar. Salesman said it was because all that was "used" at that point and could not be used on a different new car later.
Whatever ...
this is way worse then a dealer adding $1900 market adjustment. At least put the msrp of each item, and then group your surcharge as one price at the end. Writting it this way is misleading any customer who doesnt know better. Absolute snakes in the grass.
Yeah, it's like they take off the original rims (and sometimes tires, if switching sizes) and just throw them in the dumpster (ie, no credit ).
My (normally fair) local Acura dealer said something similar. Salesman said it was because all that was "used" at that point and could not be used on a different new car later.
Whatever ...
If they are hitting an extra charge for the wheels like on Legend2TL's attachment parts list you should be getting the old wheels as you paid for them in the price of the car. Its no swap you are buying the new wheels outright.
Yeah, it's like they take off the original rims (and sometimes tires, if switching sizes) and just throw them in the dumpster (ie, no credit ).
My (normally fair) local Acura dealer said something similar. Salesman said it was because all that was "used" at that point and could not be used on a different new car later.
Whatever ...
If they are hitting an extra charge for the wheels like on Legend2TL's attachment parts list you should be getting the old wheels as you paid for them in the price of the car. Its no swap you are buying the new wheels outright for $2399. Be good for winter tires if you live up north.
10-02-2021, 02:58 PM
Meh, not racing but comparing relative time performance between different vehicles so as to show there's little difference in their actual performance.
+1
