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Folks, please note that I am aware that you pay less for leases in the US. My post was to question the comparison provided between a TLX lease in Georgia and a BMW lease. The TLX number given was higher than Canada, and given our higher tax rates, that just seemed off. In most parts of Canada, certainly where I live the comparably equipped BMW will always cost you more. I have provided a link to our only BMW dealership with new 330s and 340s in stock, a few which are comparatively equipped to a Platinum Elite TLX. Honestly, there is less room to bargain than with Acura. Ive also given you the equivalent for new TLXs from my Acura dealership.
Great EX-international banker I am. Should have added that the CND is worth 0.75 USD at todays exchange rate. So our numbers are going to be only 3/4 of yours before you do any calculations. That suggests if your $925CND lease was expressed in US$ it would be about $690USD.
No bothering to go into it would seem netting the exchange rate out your cars are being priced higher to the public than the equivalent car in the US. Your BMW company & BMW USA are separate entities & make there own deals with BMW Germany.
2X as many 3 series vs TLX sold, not 3X. Pandemic 2020 has dropped all car sales/leases
Wss a time when the 3 & 4 G TL's were in production that the Convertibles & Coupes were counted in with the 4 doors as 3 series. They are now the 4 series & a case could be made that their numbers also count against the TLX.
That’s great, but the majority of buyers live in the US where currently even M340is (let alone the regular 330i) can be had for less than the 2G TLX. If the BMW is more expensive in Canada than the TLX, then we should see better sales figures in Canada than the US.
These days, I suppose it's a nice consolation that BMWs are so cheap for you On a more serious note, I think Acura will have to reduce the interest rate to 1.99 % or so to start moving more cars on either side of the border.
Wss a time when the 3 & 4 G TL's were in production that the Convertibles & Coupes were counted in with the 4 doors as 3 series. They are now the 4 series & a case could be made that their numbers also count against the TLX.
BMW "maintained a reserve of unreported retail vehicle sales — referred to internally as the 'bank' — that it used to meet internal monthly sales targets without regard to when the underlying sales occurred."
I imagine most BMW lessees are not going to buy it out at the end given the high residuals and the fact that the next lease will be just as cheap.
True, but not what I asked.
IIRC, the more reserved for Residual (end of lease buy-out) ... less to pay inside lease-term.
What does this mean ... Residual: 61% ... 61% of what number exactly ?
IIRC, the more reserved for Residual (end of lease buy-out) ... less to pay inside lease-term.
What does this mean ... Residual: 61% ... 61% of what number exactly ?
So, "high residual" sounds like the same thing as "low yearly depreciation" of well-made premium vehicles that hold their value.
That situation ... but as it applies to leases (instead of buy/financed/trade-ins/sell).
Residual on the 2020-Q5-e was 50% . Only 10% less, but still.
I guess that's why you see off-lease (well cared for) BMWs still commanding a high-price in CPO market.
So, "high residual" sounds like the same thing as "low yearly depreciation" of well-made premium vehicles that hold their value.
That situation ... but as it applies to leases (instead of buy/financed/trade-ins/sell).
Residual on the 2020-Q5-e was 50% . Only 10% less, but still.
I guess that's why you see off-lease (well cared for) BMWs still commanding a high-price in CPO market.
You have to make sure the residual values being quoted for one car vs. another are based on the same lease duration.
IIRC, the more reserved for Residual (end of lease buy-out) ... less to pay inside lease-term.
What does this mean ... Residual: 61% ... 61% of what number exactly ?
Its the finance companies estimate of what the car is worth at the end of the lease based on the MSRP. So a $100,000 MSRP car with a 61% Residual Value the estimated value is $61,000.
The best lease deals are made with a combination of low lease PRICE, high RESIDUAL value, and low MONEY FACTOR.
Yes the higher the residual the cheaper the payment. A few things are part of the lease payment & residual is not the only thing that effects the payment.
Part of thelease payment is basically the depreciation of the car, split up over the leaseperiod with fees and interest included. So in basic terms a 61% residual means your payments are based on 39% of the MSRP + fees (typically the Acquisition fee) + interest (the money factor)
Price this is what the dealer is selling the car for. The lower the price the lower the payment because this is what you are being charged interest on while you are paying off your share of the price.
On the money factor typically shown as 0.xxxx The number after the decimal point multiplied by 2400 will give you the actual interest rate (ARP) you are being charged. So the closer to all zeros after the decimal point the cheaper the loan is.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 10-30-2020 at 04:52 PM.
The best lease deals are made with a combination of low lease PRICE, high RESIDUAL value, and low MONEY FACTOR.
Yes the higher the residual the cheaper the payment. A few things are part of the lease payment & residual is not the only thing that effects the payment.
Thelease payment is basically the depreciation of the car, split up over the leaseperiod with fees and interest included. So in basic terms a 61% residual means your payments are based on 39% of the MSRP + fees (typically the Acquisition fee) + interest (the money factor)
Price this is what the dealer is selling the car for. The lower the price the lower the payment because this is what you are being charged interest on.
On the money factor typically shown as 0.xxxx The number after the decimal point multiplied by 2400 will give you the actual interest rate (ARP) you are being charged. So the closer to all zeros after the decimal point the cheaper the loan is.
One small correction; your monthly payment isn't exactly based on 39% of MSRP. Depreciation is your adjusted cap cost minus the 61% residual value, which will almost always be less than 39% of MSRP because your adjusted cap cost is almost always less than MSRP, even with no cap reduction. The only part where the high residual value is a negative is in the interest department because it's calculated as your adjusted cap cost PLUS residual value (61% of MSRP in this case) multiplied by the money factor. But even so, that's a tiny increase compared to the big decrease you get in depreciation.
comparing a truck to a sedan. Well I just don’t think that’s smart at all
it's purely marketing.
I absolutely love the 2nd gen TLX as as a car, as a race car, as a whole.
but for some reason, the Bronco pulls my heart strings a lot more. SO MUCH more, that I'm thinking of buying an overland rig.
I'm poor, So I cant afford the 2nd gen TLX or the Bronco, BUT I can afford used vehicles....and since I already have an acura, I'm thinking of buying a 2004-2006 Lexus GX740 and overlanding that out.
It's Purely marketing and how trucks can sell a lifestyle. the Jeepbro lifestyle.
Houston is flat so there is no need for an overland vehicle, but for some reason, JEEP has perfected this marketing and has sold this lifestyle.
race car's are great and all, but there's no way you can always hit triple digits without getting into trouble.
Last edited by justnspace; 10-30-2020 at 05:57 PM.
Have you seen the pricing? Hovering around $60K heavily optioned.
that's the thing about marketing...
the Bronco is selling a lifestyle. it's going directly against the Wrangler.
The Bronco and the Jeep Wrangler have made me, a 3 pedal SPEED freak who has always loved triple digit speeds, want to buy an overland rig.
I am such a car enthusiast that I will only buy cars that have 3 pedals. GOTTA HAVE THE MAN pedal. or you're not a man.
but for some strange reason, these overland rigs are calling me.
purely marketing.
those that have no problem spending $60k on an overland rig, will do so.
I dont have that kind of money, I am only willing to spend $10k on a Lexus GX470. and then "overlanding" that out.
I have an '06 6MT TL that can reach triple digit speeds in a blink of an eye.
I have no reason or want for another sporty sedan (which acura is set on selling)
Last edited by justnspace; 10-30-2020 at 08:02 PM.
going back to the marketing aspect; how many times can acura sell basically the same car?
any brand, save for the Dodge Challenger and Charger (and wrangler) ,can't do it.
there's no way, people are going to buy the same car over and over and over and over again.
and yes, the 2nd gen TLX is basically the same car albeit newer bits, as the 1st gen TLX.
no one but the boring bean counters and even then the bean counters are like...fuck $50k for the same car? fuck that.
and that's what Dodge and Jeep (FCA) does so well. they create an exciting brand. They create an image that most people aspire to be.
there's no way, people are going to buy the same car over and over and over and over again.
and yes, the 2nd gen TLX is basically the same car albeit newer bits, as the 1st gen TLX.
I was going to. Really just because it was a Acura. Acura's new mid-sized sedan (with the latest tech).
Bought Accord V6 EX-L . Thinking of buying 2G TLX . The wife and I like sedans.
I was going to. Really just because it was a Acura. Acura's new mid-sized sedan (with the latest tech).
Bought Accord V6 EX-L . Thinking of buying 2G TLX . The wife and I like sedans.
The comment is more for me, a current 1G owner. There are improvements, but nothing that excites me enough about the overall package to upgrade, especially with the price increase. For you, if you decided to buy the 2G, it's you're initial TLX purchase with no previous TLX experience to compare it to.
I'll be a "looker" when the Type-S is released. However, I already know the dealer network is going to initially try to hold the line at MSRP minimum, possibly adding market adjustments. If that happens, I'll wait until they're willing to negotiate if the package is compelling enough to buy.
Last edited by Carnage719; 10-30-2020 at 09:14 PM.
Someone going in for a TLX can probably drive out in a well equipped 2020 V6 sh-awd aspec for about the same price or possibly less than the "base" 21 TLX with no tech package even (over 39k). The dealers want to clear out the 2020 models which they still by me have plenty of on the lot and Acura does discount leftover models a fair amount if you put in a little effort. Doubt they are offering much more than 1k or so off the 21 models at this point.
Also sticker on a fully loaded model is like 50K. I saw a lot of them on the lot. Look nice enough but will hold onto my 2018 another year or so and see where prices go with the type S after it's been out. The car did have a wider lower look than the existing tlx. I am not even sure I want a larger car as it's rare for me to have more than 1 other person in the car. If the type S is going to be pushing 65k with tax and all out the door I may just opt for a certified Macon for 20k less.
Well we should get October sales numbers today/soon.
Acura sold 1848 TLXes in September. October 2019 they sold 2,188 TLX.
Autotrader has 3500 “new” TLX listed nationwide with about 1000 of those being leftover 1G models. Generally new models run less than 30 days of inventory because they’re “hot”. So 3500 units is probably the bar. 3000-3500 is fine but slightly disappointing. Anything under 3000 is disaster. 4000+ is great success.
It also will take several months for things to settle - Acura will work through the old models and the new model will find its level. So one month can set the tone - but it takes 3-4 months to really figure out what they have.
I would echo the comments that today’s market for sedans isn’t nearly as strong as it was in 2015 so the targets are simply less than they were then.
I’ll put the over/under at 3250 for October and take the over. I think sales are going to be solid but not great.
Well we should get October sales numbers today/soon.
Acura sold 1848 TLXes in September. October 2019 they sold 2,188 TLX.
Autotrader has 3500 “new” TLX listed nationwide with about 1000 of those being leftover 1G models. Generally new models run less than 30 days of inventory because they’re “hot”. So 3500 units is probably the bar. 3000-3500 is fine but slightly disappointing. Anything under 3000 is disaster. 4000+ is great success.
It also will take several months for things to settle - Acura will work through the old models and the new model will find its level. So one month can set the tone - but it takes 3-4 months to really figure out what they have.
I would echo the comments that today’s market for sedans isn’t nearly as strong as it was in 2015 so the targets are simply less than they were then.
I’ll put the over/under at 3250 for October and take the over. I think sales are going to be solid but not great.
I agreed with you. Today sedan sales are not strong but Acura has to sell around $3K to achieve their target. If they maintain 1.8K to 2K units sales, there is no point to have a brand new model. I won't go there but definitely the entire car market is hit with this pandemic. This isn't about Acura but sad for the entire industry. As you said, numbers will be out in the next couple of hours.
BMW, Mercedes, and Audi now list quarterly sales figures instead of monthly sales figures, so comparison will be a bit difficult.
Having said that, Q3 2020, BMW sold 10394 3 series, or about 3460 units per month. Historically, the 3 series has been one of the best sellers (#1 or 2 usually).
Audi in the same period sold 5958 A4's, or just under 2000 units per month.
Mercedes sold 7215 C Class' in Q3 2020, or about 2400 units per month.
I don't see how Acura is able to beat all of these at 3500 units man. That seems too optimistic. And these German cars all have money on the hood too.
I would think 1500-2000 units sold is more realistic considering COVID. If Acura can maintain the same sales volume as the 1g TLX, that's a win IMO. The idea is to increase the average transaction price and the 2G TLX will do that (higher MSRP, less or same incentive).
Here you go: Definitely the new TLX played a role by selling about 400-500 units more compared to the last few months if we compare it to the 1st Gen TLX. If there was no pandemic and tough economic situation, i am sure Acura would have sold close to 3K units. But to get the full picture and see the success or failure, we have to wait at least a few months.
Maybe its me but I see 177 more cars sold this October than last October. No way of telling how many are TLX or TLX-2 because a car "sold" is a retail delivery not a model year thing. There is a mix of 2020 TLX going out at move them out pricing & new 2021 TLX-2 at normal pricing.
Numbers will not mean much until the 2020 inventory is gone & TLX-2 production is up to speed especially with an all new model. Thing that would concern me if it were my product is there was no apparent backlog in pre production 2021orders.
Maybe its me but I see 177 more cars sold this October than last October. No way of telling how many are TLX or TLX-2 because a car "sold" is a retail delivery not a model year thing. There is a mix of 2020 TLX going out at move them out pricing & new 2021 TLX-2 at normal pricing.
Numbers will not mean much until the 2020 inventory is gone & TLX-2 production is up to speed especially with an all new model. Thing that would concern me if it were my product is there was no apparent backlog in pre production 2021orders.
The ~200 TLX sell bump is probably the same as the RLX bump, liquidation prices. I think December data in January will show more.
Maybe its me but I see 177 more cars sold this October than last October. No way of telling how many are TLX or TLX-2 because a car "sold" is a retail delivery not a model year thing. There is a mix of 2020 TLX going out at move them out pricing & new 2021 TLX-2 at normal pricing.
Numbers will not mean much until the 2020 inventory is gone & TLX-2 production is up to speed especially with an all new model. Thing that would concern me if it were my product is there was no apparent backlog in pre production 2021orders.
To be fair we can't compare with 2019 numbers because we didn't have a pandemic back then. It's going to be especially difficult to determine what amount of sales were lost due to the macro effects brought on by something of this scale.
To be fair we can't compare with 2019 numbers because we didn't have a pandemic back then. It's going to be especially difficult to determine what amount of sales were lost due to the macro effects brought on by something of this scale.
Said Numbers will not mean much until the 2020 inventory is gone & TLX-2 production is up to speed especially with an all new model.
Its too early given what is going on to say fail, success, major hit yet. Think springtime 2020 vs springtime 2021 will be closer to a level playing field.
That said what I would be concerned about as i said was the lack of pre-release demand. Then you bake in this site, not many sales to members so far. Think about this, the all new Corvette sold 20,000 cars since Mid April of this year.
Most were ordered before the reveal some guys were paid in $2,000 deposit two years ago. They already have a backlog of orders for the 2021 many were rolled over from 2020 orders because they could n ot build the cars fast enough.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-03-2020 at 01:26 PM.
Said Numbers will not mean much until the 2020 inventory is gone & TLX-2 production is up to speed especially with an all new model.
Its too early given what is going on to say fail, success, major hit yet. Think springtime 2020 vs springtime 2021 will be closer to a level playing field.
That said what I would be concerned about as i said was the lack of pre-release demand. Then you bake in this site, not many sales to members so far. Think about this, the all new Corvette sold 20,000 cars since Mid April of this year.
Most were ordered before the reveal some guys were paid in $2,000 deposit two years ago. They already have a backlog of orders for the 2021 many were rolled over from 2020 orders because they could n ot build the cars fast enough.
I don't think that's a fair comparison as ppl buying the Corvette have extra money around for essentially a new toy. The 2.0T is a daily and at this price, I don't think it's majority of buyers have extra cash.
I don't think that's a fair comparison as ppl buying the Corvette have extra money around for essentially a new toy. The 2.0T is a daily and at this price, I don't think it's majority of buyers have extra cash.
Exactly. Plus, C8 over-delivered and offers near super-car level experience for fraction of what those other cars cost. TLX is the opposite, under delivered on power and costs way too much for what it is.
It will be very difficult to measure success or failure at this point. We have to wait for at least 1-2 quarters to get a clear picture.
Comparing the TLX to Corvette is not a good idea. Two different segments and serves different crowds. Also, as I mentioned before unfortunately many, many people are hit by this pandemic and economic crises. It's very sad and definitely people aren't looking to spend $40-$50K to buy a new car. Hopefully, things get better for everyone so people can resume their "normal" life.
On the other hand, used car market is booming. I helped a friend to buy a car and the dealer said, people are buying just a car (mostly used) to go from point A to B. Due to the fear of virus, people avoid taking public transport.
I don't think that's a fair comparison as ppl buying the Corvette have extra money around for essentially a new toy. The 2.0T is a daily and at this price, I don't think it's majority of buyers have extra cash.
Yeah the Corvette is special even so they sold out the first years total production of 20,000 cars in less than a month & before the first car was even delivered to a customer...a grand slam by any measure. When you see an all new TLX-2 sitting on a dealers lot for 3 weeks that is not good news by any stretch.
What the TLX-2 has in common with the StingRay is its an all new car. Its not like its just the same old next year TLX in a 5 or 6 year cycle.
Curious. There are some significantly long threads here on the members looking forward to the TLX-2. This group has to be a lot more invested fans in the TLX than the average buyer. How many have actually put money down & purchased a new 2021 TLX?
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-04-2020 at 11:52 AM.
Yeah the Corvette is special even so they sold out the first years total production of 20,000 cars in less than a month & before the first car was even delivered to a customer...a grand slam by any measure. When you see an all new TLX-2 sitting on a dealers lot for 3 weeks that is not good news by any stretch.
What the TLX-2 has in common with the StingRay is its an all new car. Its not like its just the same old next year TLX in a 5 or 6 year cycle.
Curious. There are some significantly long threads here on the members looking forward to the TLX-2. This group has to be a lot more invested fans in the TLX than the average buyer. How many have actually put money down & purchased a new 2021 TLX?
It's no different than any other car forum. People that are part of it (active members) add up to 1-2% of sales of those models. They're unhappy because the car isn't what they want. Reality is, car manufactures don't care what enthusiasts want. We're an anomaly when it comes to sales.
It's no different than any other car forum. People that are part of it (active members) add up to 1-2% of sales of those models. They're unhappy because the car isn't what they want. Reality is, car manufactures don't care what enthusiasts want. We're an anomaly when it comes to sales.
I think it's not about "don't care" but it's not worth for the manufacturers to invest in R&D and build a car for a very small group of buyers. Especially for a brand like Acura. They are way too small and no global presence. The Germans can do it because they have the funds and they sell cars globally. For example, Audi delivered 1.35M units worldwide so far. It's insane. That's why Acura, Infiniti and even Lexus will always struggle. Actually infiniti is almost at the end. ....not even sure if they will survive.
It's no different than any other car forum. People that are part of it (active members) add up to 1-2% of sales of those models. They're unhappy because the car isn't what they want. Reality is, car manufactures don't care what enthusiasts want. We're an anomaly when it comes to sales.
I think 1 to 2 percent of their sales is *really* stretching it for AcuraZine. I suspect most of the habitually negative posters have zero intention of buying one even if it checked all the boxes.
Regarding the TLX-2, I think the key is to not worry about Acura's marketing but rather to look at the actual decisions they make - that will tell you who they're targeting. In this case it's clearly not the street racer crowd - but rather the older crowd who want a refined sporty car. The Accord owner who hit his/her 40's and is making a decent buck etc. I fully understand why the enthusiast crowd feels a sense of being left behind but the fact is, as you said, Acura just wants to sell cars and they need to aim for a broad target if they want to sell more than a handful (like the NSX) so here we are! The good news is there are plenty of other options out there today if a true sports sedan is what you want.
That's the long way around to say that while i haven't driven one - from watching all the reviews I don't get the feeling the engine is under-powered at all. It seems competitive in the space they're aiming for and while not special it's certainly not lacking.
It's no different than any other car forum. People that are part of it (active members) add up to 1-2% of sales of those models. They're unhappy because the car isn't what they want. Reality is, car manufactures don't care what enthusiasts want. We're an anomaly when it comes to sales.
Not sure what you are getting at. Question was simple "how many readers have bought one". Has nothing to do with percentage of sales or anything else. Its just a straight foward question. One person, 5 people, 10? Some of the guys seem quite enthused about the car, did they put the money up?
Originally Posted by CheeseyPoofs McNut
but rather the older crowd who want a refined sporty car. It seems competitive in the space they're aiming for and while not special it's certainly not lacking.
Geeze, you are making sound like they are building small Buicks. Who do you think are the real players in the space they're aiming forconsidering all their current marketing material lines them up against BMW 3/5, Audi A 3/4+, MB C/E with the car zipping around on a race track for good measure.
I'm not sure why the Corvette is brought into this conversation lol. The Corvette has always done well sales wise. When the C7 first came out GM sold 30k+ for the first 3 years. Even by the end of its model cycle it still sold nearly 20000 units. There's always fleet sales + dedicated corvette fans to buy these, much like the Mustang and Camaro. These cars just sell well. There are other excellent sports cars but they just can't even come close to these sales figures, namely the BRZ, Genesis, 370Z, and MX-5. And that's before some of these got dated - that even when brand new, the sales figures were significantly lower than the American sports cars.
Another example is the excellent Mazda 6 - its sales figures - near 10 times less than the likes of Accord or Camry.
So yea, some cars just sell decently well regardless. Just look at the Civic, over the years, there were some awful Civics, like the 7th gen (2001-2005) and 9th gen (especially the 2012). In those years, Honda still sold 300k+ per year in the US.
That's all True but BMW can't keep M340's on their lots. I had to special order mine because no dealer had much inventory and the ones that were there were base models with crappy options. They are not selling because you CAN get a much faster, better car like an M340i on a lease for less than you can a base TLX. If you're leasing it would make zero sense for anybody would get a TLX over any of the German options if prices are similar. You can get a 330 which is also a better car for less than a TLX. The worse part is this isn't even the Type S!
There have been plenty on lots near me, and with factory incentives they have been advertised at $8-10,000 of MSRP for 2020s.
10-29-2020, 07:58 PM
On a more serious note, I think Acura will have to reduce the interest rate to 1.99 % or so to start moving more cars on either side of the border.
