BEAR-AvHistory

You still have the drivers reaction time at the start. Thing is they seldom if ever do daily drivers so no help there.


In the second race there are 3 or 4 cars with the same time & speed 12.1@117 or so that are pretty spaced out at the finish, not a dead heat. Driver variable, you can have the quicker car or exactly the same car & still lose.

jjsC5

I find your question to be interesting. First of all, the manufacturer does not get to decide what other cars their car winds up competing against. The market will decide that. The manufacturer can target other vehicles, but if not the Germans, then who are they targeting? Unless you count the Q50 Red Sport, with its now ancient platform and technology, there are no other Japanese vehicles in that space. The U.S....we have the all new Cadillac CT5-V. It is getting good reviews and certainly has to be considered. The Volvo S6 can play in that group but I can count on one hand the number I have seen on the road in what, more than a year it has been out? The S4 will likely be a better price point contender than the S5s, but they will all be cross shopped as well because they are not that far off in price. The C43 and M340 have to be on the list. Just the fact that so many of us on the forum group them together says they are competitors, we ARE the target market - the enthusiasts.

When a car is completely redesigned, they have one chance and being best in class until the competitors come out with their updated versions. You have to be better at what the target customers want if you are going to "steal" sales from existing competitors cars. So what is it? Techy stuff like sound system & all the stuff that people like to do while sitting at red lights, luxury (comfort, amenities etc), handling, straight line performance, looks.... Gotta be something that draws people away from whatever they are driving now. And given that Acura has built VERY boring cars for the past 15 years or so, they are coming from behind.

Horsepower isn't everything. Maybe 350 will be enough. And many folks will not rate straight line speed at the top of the list of what they want. If they did, the M340 would own the market right now, and it does not. In my opinion, the 3 series fails miserably in most of the other areas. I"ve thought about an M340 to replace my current 540 only because BMWs have the best lease deals and I want to save money on my next car (compared to my 5). I'm a speed junkie so I try to justify it by telling myself it will be a hoot to run through the gears. Then reality sets in that I seldom do that in my car anymore (I damn sure do on my bikes) and that the other attributes really are more important to me. But power still counts to a degree.

Of course, we are guessing at the price on the TLX, but I doubt that as a group we will be far off. The Acura does not have to be the best of the group at any one thing because it does have one feature that the others don't - Japanese/Honda reliability and overall cost of ownership. If all is equal with the other cars mentioned above, I will be very interested in one even if it's not the fastest. But I would want it to be at least close. And BMW does have one ace up its sleeve - the inline six engine is intoxicating. Once you have had one it's hard to ignore.

BTW, I have reason to believe that Honda may get it right. I decided a month or so ago that I should get rid of my Ducati 1199 Panigale. It was painful as I loved the bike. But since retirement I'm putting way too many miles on my bikes to own a high maintenance mistress. I had traded a German BMW and an Austrian KTM for Japanese bikes in the past 18 months, and decided to do the same with the Ducati. For those who don't know bikes, I'm talking about the all out SuperSport - known to many as "Crotch Rockets". I always keep up with bikes, but because I thought I'd never get rid of the Ducati, I was not totally up do date on other SuperBikes. After a lot of research, I discovered that the Honda CBR1000rr that got an all new update in 2017 is the real deal. They added all the latest technology, and it is the lightest of any of its competitors. I have now owned one for almost three weeks and over 1,000 miles, and have to take back some things I've said about Honda. I love the bike. So there is hope for the new TLX-S!

Tesla1856

Thanks for the video (never seen that before).

I saw an Acura in some early races. I'll have to look closer to see if the current gen NSX ever ran.

Interesting that Tesla wasn't invited back for the later races.

AcuraFan1980

Hey Guys

I do have a question. If you currently own the V6 TLX 290 HP version, how much of a loss are you looking at power and speed wise if you go with the Turbo 4? Never had a turbo so not really sure

Would it be something notice right away while driving? Considering getting the Type S, but price wise, might settle of a Tech 4 Cyl

Thanks

fiatlux

You should probably ask the RDX guys. The 2G had the same engine as the TLX V6, and the 3G had the same engine as the TLX 2.0T.

My 2 cents: the 2.0T feels like it pulls harder in the midrange, but the V6 feels like it has more power at the top. 0-60 is going to be roughly the same; the 3G RDX is something like 0.1s slower than the 2G. If you drive normally the 2.0T feels more powerful with all that torque down low, but WOT the V6 comes out ahead at the top end.

ZipSpeed

I have driven the 3G RDX a few times, and while it wasn’t slow, it didn’t feel quick either. The TLX with the 2.0T should perform better with less weight and better aerodynamics.

jjsC5

I just saw that Car & Driver says the S will start around $45,000. I have been reading their magazine for over 50 years and their history is that they normally have good information when they post such things. That would mean one loaded up would likely be no more than $55k. That would make the car very appealing to me.

Now on it just has to be here in time. I want to be out of my BMW by next spring.

Legend2TL

+1 very well written post.

How do you like your '18 CBR1000RR?
Came very close to getting a previous gen '15 last year (great deal $5.5k for great condition with no mod's and <10k miles) but unfortunately let it slip away.

BEAR-AvHistory

The BMW has a 100lbs weight advantage which will have some effect but not that much. Based on the Civic R the Honda turbo 4 is an excellent engine. My best guess the TLX turbo 4 will not be deficient when compared to the out going V6. The increased torque of the four should make it a better DD in most conditions.

C/D
TEST RESULTS
BMW 330 AWD I4 turbo.
255BHP & 295lb-ft

Weight 3709 lb
Zero to 60 mph: 5.2 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 13.9 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 28.5 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 6.4 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 3.2 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 3.9 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.9 sec @ 100 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 156 mph

C/D
TEST RESULTS
Acura TLX AWD V6
290BHP & 267lb-ftWeight 3812 lb
Zero to 60 mph: 5.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 14.2 sec
Zero to 120 mph: 22.5 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 5.9 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 3.3 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 4.1 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.2 sec @ 100 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 126 mph

jjsC5

First of all, think you out for the compliment.

The answer about the CBR is probably more complicated than I have time for now (I am sitting a coffee shop with my Ninja 1000SX sitting near me . I traded an 1199 Panigale for the CBR mainly because I retired 18 months ago and wanted to convert my fleet back to more reliable Japanese bikes, Sam reason I’m on this forum. I have had the CBR for three weeks and have 1400 miles on it. The short answer is I like it a lot. If you want to know more I’ll provide a link to my post on the CBR forum later. .Or you can go to that forum and look for my post. My forum name is almost the same as here. Do you have a bike now?

leomio85

They also put out an article stating they think the Hellcat powered Ram Revel TRX will start around $56k. The Hellcat powered Durango and Jeep are close to 100k. How they devised that the Ram will be almost half that is beyond me. I like C&D, but I wouldn’t trust their pricing as it’s purely speculative.

I doubt the TLX-S starts at 45k ... current A-Spec starts at that. It’s going to start around $49k would be my guess after the release of their power figures. Very unlikely they’re going to “steal” any customers from the Germans. More than likely sell very few and to people who come in to buy the TLX and decide/convinced to upgrade. Car consumers are dumb. The vast majority will talk badges and numbers. If a guy with a BMW M340i talks about how he has 382HP, the people who go for them won’t care if the TLX-S is technically just as fast in every performance bracket. More prestige and more bragging rights around the water cooler.

Legend2TL

OK, I ride a '85 Honda VF500F which I bought new.
It has ~63k miles and I've thought many times of upgrading, I also also bought a new CBR900RR in '92 (long story).
These days I mostly just ride for pleasure and in groups, Still mad at myself for passing up a great condition stock '15 CBR1000RR for $5.5k.
Yeah if you could please PM or post the CBR group link.

TVL65

YUP, I've had many bikes I regret selling, KZ1000's and especially a 79' KZ1000 MKII I had. in 93' I bought a 83' GS1100ED from original owner and I still have it. I should have held onto my 99' ZRX1100 and 95' KZ1000P (police bike) with lights and siren. At 55 years old now I don't ride as much, but current bikes include a 2008 Suzuki B-King and 2010 Triumph Thunderbird 1700 bot bought new. Your Honda is a great bike! STAY SAFE OUT THERE!

jjsC5

https://www.1000rr.net/threads/got-t...8#post-4304906

jhb31

I paid around 41k for my Sh-awd A-Spec just a few months after it first came out. Pretty sure for 45K after several months is about right to get into a Type-S. One thing that many overlook is that if the Type-S holds it's value and is reliable as the 3rd Gen Type S model several years down the road it will suffer nowhere near the depreciation of an Audi or BMW with maintenance costs being way less. Although subjective the Type S from what I have seen styling wise is a lot nice than any BMW you can get sub 50K. I have had a couple BMW's and they hit you hard on options that are most likely standard in the Type-S. Again styling is subjective. I am at 3 years on my TLX now with zero issues and held my last Type S for ten years before I gave up the wait for another one. Will be very nice to test drive it when it comes out and see what's what.

Also, unless something has changed BMW makes you pay annually for carplay or AA, maybe they changed but they hit you for every dollar.

leomio85

When Acura introduced the A-Spec to the TLX, it had already been out for two years. A-Spec, although a lovely package (it was a must for my 3G RDX), is simply an appearance package, nothing more. Since its unveiling, Acura has seen a decrease in sales for every year the TLX has been available, which isn't out of the ordinary, but would not justify dealers looking to mark up a less popular vehicle that people's interest in was already waning. The Type S is a completely different animal. Even a bullshit RDX was difficult to negotiate down in price until the pandemic hit. No way dealers aren't going to greedily try to milk as much money as they can over the first vehicle with some cajones Acura has put out in the past ... decade? (minus the NSX, which most people don't even know/remember exists)

As far as AA/Apple Carplay, I don't even use it in my RDX. I guess when people obsess over their phones, it's a necessity, but it could be completely void from the car and I'd be no less happy. Once I get everything set in the car, I shut my infotainment screen off. Different strokes, I suppose.

Who knows tho. I prefer new vehicles, but I keep coming back to the M5. I think I would be reminisced spending the same amount of money (mid $50k) on an Acura with nearly half the horsepower compared to a lightly used F90 M5. Even if it was in the $60k range for a nicer example, I'd splurge seeing as this isn't going to be a purchase I make for another 2-3yrs. Subtle but handsome styling, better quality everything, and power that would satisfy me. Yes, in the long run, not as reliable and far more expensive repairs, but with the technical and electronic implementations in all new cars, it's not like Acuras are going to exactly be "reliable" when all the tech goes wrong, which has been the new issues with cars over mechanical failures. Not to mention the unknown of whether the transmission will fare well with the stock power of the Type S, let alone with a tune. We'll see I suppose ... by then there will likely be more intel on whether BMW has gotten their heads out of their asses and can build an ///M car that doesn't have an engineering flaw that causes catastrophic engine failure.

SebringSilver

The minute that news broke the Type S will only generate 355 hp, I suspect many people pretty much lost interest in it.

Are people in the year 2020, during one of the most glorious periods in horsepower warfare, actually excited by a “high performance” car that only generates 355 hp?

jjsC5

The only thing more dead than the four door sedan market is the performance four door sedan market. I have a 540 BMW and am always looking for my next car. I’d love to have an M550 BMW with the new for 2020 523 hp engine. I follow what’s in stock on cars.com on nearly a daily basis. For the pst six months it’s rare to find more than about six in stock in the whole state of Texas. My dealer which is in a Houston suburb has never put a 2020 M550 in stock.

I'm a more is better fan - a card carrying speed freak. But no, I don’t honestly think the 355 will make any difference in sales. As much as i bitch and moan about Acura, I’d rather buy an Acura with a little less hp than the Germans to get a better all around package and better reliability.

Xracer91

Not me. I was hoping for a modest bump over my last tl (305hp) and my current caddy ats (321hp). My only disappointment is the trim level as my preference is the advance model w a v6, just like my last tl.

BEAR-AvHistory

The current factory delivered horsepower race is the 1960's all over again. 500BHP is the new 400BHP With 500BHP getting a common as dog s**t in the lead performance cars of each brand 355BHP will get lost in the background noise To most people its the number & the image that count not the rubber on the track reality

jhb31

If you're running to the dealer right after it's out you will not get much if anything off sticker. By end of 2021 they will be discounts to be had. I got almost 8k off my Type S as a leftover 2007 as most Acura buyers are not going for a Type S.

I run waze on my car screen all the time along with streaming music via AA. It's not a phone obsession at all. It's a nice feature that makes the infotainment system better.

As for the car being just 355 HP, I thought all along it would be right around 350. Not sure why anyone thought it would be 400 or more. The extra HP is a nice bump. I don't take my car to track days so 355 should be a nice upgrade as long as the trans is improved. They keep the price in the mid to upper 40's they will have buyers. People looking for more have other options.

Tesla1856

If 355hp is not enough, how much is? Is an extra 35hp that big of a deal?

I've never bought any cars on price. I tend to buy them new and on features (I like the loaded models with latest engines/technology). A trend is forming for me ... "all new" models that are first off the assembly line.

And vehicles being disregarded when going over the magical $49k number. What's up with that?

Tesla1856

1. I guess CarPlay/AA is OK (if that's all you have) but I think in that instance ... the FM radio and/or XM is likely good enough for me.

2. I prefer to equip my cars with on-board factory NAV / digital-music, sign-up for the AcuraLink (or similar on Audi) ... get it all setup and actually use it. The on-board NAV systems are actually quite nice these days (and have been for at least 5 years).

Anyway, my iPhone ... I use it as a phone (imagine that) ... via the car's Bluetooth.

leomio85

For me, it was an instant turn off. I came back around, but only to see if a) the numbers are underrated and b) how well the car does with a tune, as far as power increase as well as durability of the drivetrain. If people are able to get the Type S to around 500 crank reliably, as BMW has done with their factory S58, I'll be game. The ~500lbs weight savings on the Type S over the M5 would probably make them feel about the same until you got to "get pulled over at gunpoint" speeds.

I hope you're right, but I suspect you won't be. Consumers' buying patterns have vastly changed since 2007, and people are more than willing to finance themselves into irreversible debt to flaunt their clout on social media.

Again, different strokes. I have an older vehicle that can connect to my phone via USB, but doesn't have Apple Carplay. It doesn't show the Waze map, but I only need the step by step directions over the speakers anyway, as I'm looking at the road for the sign/street to begin with. I remember the days of printing out a map from MapQuest and driving down the entire east coast as a teenager for spring break, I can manage without needing my hand held to know where to go. Tho seeing how people drive, it's no wonder this is a "must have" option. Music plays over Spotify and I can skip songs from the head unit. Only thing I can't do is change streams if I wanted to, but you can simply do it on the phone. Not anymore dangerous doing it on the phone than staring at the infotainment screen which doesn't react as quickly as the phone. But, I've begun to start enjoying driving without music ... drive around in dead silence to match my soul. LoL.

ZipSpeed

Because we're on an enthusiast forum, I'm going to guess that power numbers will be the first thing a lot of us will look at. And because the typical North American mindset where bigger equals better, it's easy to get into a spat that probably doesn't mean much in the end. Especially when it comes to your typical city driving conditions. Unless your city roads happened to be modeled after the Nurburgring for whatever reason, I'm going to hazard a guess that neither the Type-S or M340i will be all that different. On the track or on the open country roads where you can push the car harder, I'm going to say that driver skill is far more important than power numbers. Put a rookie in a M340i and a professional in a Type-S and see what happens. Look, I'm not saying that power is unimportant and if power numbers are what you're after, that's fine. Everyone has their own priorities so choose a car that fits you best whether it's aesthetics, power, budget, badge, etc.

SebringSilver

To a lot of people, 355 is just a number. I think that’s true for me as well. But the disconnect for me is that it’s their top of the line “performance” variant and Acura has even come out to say they’re now serious about performance again. Shouldn’t be that hard to get 390-410 hp from a turbocharged 3 liter V6. After having had 10 Acuras, some good some not so good, it’s disheartening as a pretty loyal customer to see that they’re not even really trying.

leomio85

I don't know if it's so much not really trying, as opposed to being overly cautious and conservative. Honda's reputation is already faltering. I'm still of the persuasion that the low numbers are to protect the drivetrain and other components from failure. They would rather have a vehicle that won't break as opposed to taking risks with higher power figures. I don't doubt that they could have gotten much more power out of the engine. Acura is in a tough spot. They need to put out a performance product that is nearly as good as the Germans, at a lower cost, with just as good quality and better long term reliability. As they say in the business ... Fast, Cheap, Good: Pick Two. Same goes for cars (funny how "fast" fits so nicely in there).

ZipSpeed

I agree with this assessment. Acura is probably trying to find a middle ground between performance and reliability. Especially since this particular engine is all-new and they're not ready to go all-out bonkers with it. A Supra engineer mentioned that they're going to improve the model on a yearly cadence and it would be nice if Acura took this kind of initiative with the Type-S. Realistically though, I'm not expecting any kind of performance upgrades until the mid-cycle update, and even that might just be a maybe. I'm still hoping to see a marriage between the 3.0T and Sport Hybrid some day. That would give us the closest thing to a NSX Lite.

dmski

[QUOTE=jhb31;16614421]If you're running to the dealer right after it's out you will not get much if anything off sticker. By end of 2021 they will be discounts to be had. I got almost 8k off my Type S as a leftover 2007 as most Acura buyers are not going for a Type S.


Some don't really have a choice. My lease is up next spring so I need to make a decision. Yes, I do want the type S, however, I do expect some discount, at least loyalty and low interest rate I have been enjoying as a loyal customer for repeat business at the very minimum. But if Acura turns their nose and asks for a markup....F**K them and thanks for making my decision easy. I'm just going to go German and come back here and boast how superior they are.

Midnight Mystery

Good point.

jhb31

Had XM and prefer spotify premium over it, can hear what I want when I want wherever I want. I have had factory NAV in the last 4 cars I have bought. Waze or even Google maps is far superior to the Acura Navigation. Not even close. Can't remember the last time I bothered with the Acura Navigation. Waze at least has police alerts and traffic so useful even when you know where you're going. You can't even set the Nav on the acura unless your stopped. So then try using the voice comands to get an address in on Acura's system while driving. It's near impossible. Google does it in seconds right through the car. Also the Acura map display looks ancient compared to google or waze when run via Android Auto to the Nav screen. Just my 2c.

fiatlux

Note that due to the long lag time between when a car enters development and when it reaches production, the infotainment system is antiquated compared to modern smartphones. For instance, when the 3G RDX came out in 2018, it was running on hardware that was middle-of-the-road from 2014. Not even the higher-end stuff some of the other automakers used (but that’s a separate matter). It’s no surprise that our phones are way more functional and powerful than these infotainment systems. Hell, I would not be surprised if the new TLX continues to use the same 2014-era hardware (TI Jacinto 6 SoC if anyone is wondering what it is).

AA and Carplay is the right path forward; offload all the heavy lifting to our more powerful phones, and instead turn the infotainment system into a dumb I/O device. That adds much more flexibility and helps decouple the user experience from the limitations of old non-upgradeable hardware.

Midnight Mystery

Tony Pac

Exciting! Can't wait

Shadow2056

The drive modes is something we've had. The customization of them though. That's something new. I hope it's not just like 1 or 2 options like I've seen on BMWs and Audi.

mcrompton

A previous video showed like 5 or 6 options on the custom mode. Steering, dampers, auto start/stop are three I remember off hand quickly

BEAR-AvHistory

I read this a lot here. So will ask the question - Why? As a counterpoint read the Car Talk section of the forum. Take a look at the moderators avatars & notice how many now drive German cars. The TLX product line sort of sits in no mans land. Its a step up from Honda, a brand they get most of their growth from but doesn't have the brand identity/image of the German cars.

Not really sure who it competes against.

SebringSilver

On most Audi models, the Individual mode allows customization of:

- Sport diff
- Suspension
- ACC
- Engine noise
- Steering
- Engine/trans

The TLX will probably offer something similar.

SebringSilver

Thanks for this. This is exactly the problem I’m seeing with the 2G TLX. Since they had a clean slate to work with, they really could have done something amazing with the car, but this moderate attempt at putting out a real sports sedan infuriates so many loyal customers.

The Type S (in particular) should have been a car that slots between an S4 and an RS4, a C43 and a C63, an M340i and an M3, etc and doing so at a price similar to the S4, C43, M340i. That’s how you get people to sit up and take notice. Bringing out a car that comes in under those cars performance-wise doesn’t make it a desirable alternative to those cars even if it’s at a lower price. It just tells people you can’t afford the German car so you settled for the Acura.

Price them the same but make your product better!

fiatlux

I think I've been one of the harshest critics here about the car, but the more I think about it the more my stance softens.

First, I think there's two reasons why this car (on paper) is under-powered compared to the competition, and there might be a silver lining to this.

1) This is a low-volume engine that's only going to be used in the TLX, MDX, and if we're lucky the RDX. That means Acura can't amortize the development costs across a large number of units, so the amount of resources they could afford to spend on the engine is relatively limited. Compare that to the competition: the B58 engine in the M340i engine is also used (in some variation) in the Z4, X3, X4, Supra, X5, X7, 5-series, 6-series, 7-series, and 8-series. It is a very very high volume engine given it's the base engine in many of those models. For Audi, the EA839 in some form is also used in the S5, SQ5, A6, A7, A8, Allroad, Q8, hell even the Cayenne and Panamera. And the M276 in the Mercedes? Also used in the GLC, GLE, E-Class, and S-Class. So it makes sense that the Germans are able to invest a lot more money into their engines because they're going to get a heck of a lot more use out of it.

2) Acura needed to spread their resources that are allocated to "performance characteristics" across a much broader range of capabilities in order to make this car a well-rounded track-capable performer. BMW, Mercedes, and Audi have the M3, C63, and RS4 to serve as their track torchbearers, so for the M340i, C43, and S4, they can focus more on what regular customers care about, which is power and straight-line acceleration. However, Acura doesn't have another car at the top of the model to serve as its performance paragon, so the Type-S needs to pull double-duty as both the sensible (yet powerful) daily-driveable car, as well as the all-around track performer. Honda/Acura has always taken a more well-rounded approach to performance, and this is another example of that. They've played the game of "our performance car isn't as powerful as yours, and isn't as fast in a straight line, but it's faster at the track" seemingly for their entire existence.

Point 1 sucks, but it is what it is. Acura is a relatively small operation, and there's only so much they can do; so be it. Like it or not, they will always be David to the German Goliaths.

Point 2, however, makes me think that the Type-S is going to be a better enthusiasts/drivers car and outperform the C43 and S4 on the track, and maybe even the M340i. None of those cars (the first two especially) were built with the track in mind, whereas the Type-S very well could be the more dynamic and engaging car, even if it's slower in a straight line. For enthusiasts, this could be the car to beat.

That being said, I still think it's going to be lag behind the others in the sales department, because what customers in this segment are looking for is daily-usable performance. Power is much more accessible, tangible, and relevant for most drivers compared to things like handling, steering feel, balance, braking, etc. For every enthusiast Eddie that's in the target customer segment, there's 10 commuter Charlies and normal Nancys who likely won't be able to appreciate the car for what it is, but can appreciate point-and-shoot power.