Colorado Guy AF Ret.

There is the optional "Y" spoke wheel and summer perf. tires...and maybe another item or so....that could easily bring the MSRP up to the $55K range. I've
always thought it could top out at around that number. We'll see soon...but, not soon enough. LOL!

Carnage719

You better hope 4G-Lover doesn't see this because the resident FCA expert will come out of lurking and drop some knowledge on you on how great a true sport competitor the Challenger/Charger is.

ELIN

I don't even have a full 3 yrs with Acura yet (MDX turned in 3 months early) but do have prior experience with Japanese and German cars. I would fall under the demographic of "customer retention" for Acura. If I'm looking for something similar to the TLX Type S and it costs just shy of $55k, I would want it to be:

1) Top 3 0-60 fast. It doesn't have to be the fastest; it only needs to be competitive. I'm basically paying $ to shave off tenths of second. If I don't care about this, then the A-Spec will do.

2) Luxurious. The fact that Acura is giving the MDX Type S the VIP treatment but not the TLX Type S should be a warning to potential buyers. A potentially $55k car without power side mirrors is just sad. Good luck parking this in the city! What do you get over the A-Spec? One thing you can't see (better engine) and 4 things you can (Type S badging, exclusive paint, wheels, and quad pipes).

3) Sporty handling (the 2.0L has already proven the handling).

4) Great tires. I don't know enough to comment on the Type S tires but hopefully they're worthy of a $55k car.

5) Has to look like a sports car. My A-Spec does that just fine even if folks don't realize it's not a world-beater. During my test drive, someone was using their phone to record my tester on the highway.

Based on the information we know, the Type S would not be the car for me in the segment where it's supposed to compete. My A-Spec is already 80-85% of the Type S with much fewer complaints at <$43k negotiated price.

Tony Pac

You are right in real world but you are wrong in this forum with all these F1 drivers. 0-60 has to be under 4 seconds, if not Type S is sh1t!

Vicious Type S

Imagine you are in the market for a house with a swimming pool, a contractor is advertising brand new designs with great houses exclusively with beautiful pools in mind. You're excited so you order the house and even pay an extra 10k because you want an even bigger pool. When the house is finished, its beautiful inside and out, but they gave you 1 of those plastic kiddy pools for toddlers. You look at your neighbors and they paid the same price, maybe 5k more, and they have beautiful 50ft long swimming pools so you are upset because the reason you paid the extra cash was for a larger pool. The guy without a pool over heard your complaint and goes," everyone's Michael Phelps in this neighborhood"

LoL when you are looking at the Type S because they said its gonna be a Performance sedan, and you pay that extra 10k to get the performance because otherwise the Aspec has what they want, it's fair for them to expect performance, nobody saying it has to be the fastest, but it should be competitive in its price point.

BEAR-AvHistory

With all due respect that is a major stretch & not what is being said. BTW never even sat in an F1 car but have tracked cars since the 1960's. First thing you learn is the street is not the track & the track is not the street but in both cases competent cars are safer.

Not many under 4 second cars in the segment, maybe only one, so thats not it. There are mostly all sub 4.5 second cars in the segment with 0.94+ handling that make up the top end of the segment. The entry level 2.0L Turbo of the segment is the 5 to 6 second set but maintaining an upper 0.90 handling factor. All cars in the segment have similar short stopping distances from 70mph with low fade.

Think the question some have is why spend $50/55K for a Type S thats does not make the top end raw numbers cut & loose some nice features the top A-Spec has for $49K?

Based on what Acura has published so far you are giving up features to buy more performance. There is absolutely no other logical way to look at the Type S. IF - big IF because we don't know yet - the car does not in fact meet the performance of the other cars in the segment why would spend the extra money to buy a Type S?

ELIN

I think you meant the Advance instead of the A-Spec.

Almost forgot: Happy Birthday!

BEAR-AvHistory

Suggest you might take a drive in a Hellcat or Demon & possibly reevaluate your statement. Not my thing, way to big, but it does not fit your description of only a 1/4 horse.

In C&D Lighting Laps VIR Grand Course North Historical chart the Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat Widebody finished #86 out of 263 cars with a sub 3 minute time of 2:59:8.

Sub 3 minutes on the 4.1 mile road course is really very quick as it was just 1/10 of a second behind a BMW M2 Competition Coupe. Some of the cars it beat will truly surprise you given your comments.

HINT C&D said,

"When we started Lightning Lap 13 years ago, a 2006 Ford GT claimed the fast time with a 3:00.7."




https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/

BTW don't look for the TL/TLX its never run the LL

BEAR-AvHistory

Thanks & you are correct its Advance

fiatlux

This is hilarious. He criticizes a Challenger 392 for being too wide, yet it's the same width as the TLX. Complains it being too heavy, but the Type-S will likely weigh just as much.

Sounds like someone never actually drove one of those cars. Sure it's not Mustang or Camaro in the handling department, but it can hold its own.

Kense

The C8 Corvette is a bad example considering it's cheaper than it's competitors and faster in most cases. It's a track car, it will beat most cars on the track. It does 0-60 below 3 seconds so even there. It's competitive, the Type S is shaping up NOT to be competitive. People buy a Corvette not for drag racing, it's a track focused car and will be the fastest on the track or one of the fastest next to some of the Porsche GT cars that always show up at tracks and destroy everybody. So if you compare a C8 to some of it's similar competitors, it's in the same ballpark all for a cheaper price. UNLIKE what the TLX is most likely going to end up being.

Also 99% of people are not taking their Luxary Sedans to the track. So yes most people who want cars like a TLX Type S, AMG's, M Cars, etc are doing stoplight races or strait line races so 0-60 matters to most people.

leomio85

Nobody is asking the Type-S to be sub-4 secs ... everybody knows it's not going to do that. The points of contention coming from the "haters" are the people who are likely right and saying that the Type-S is going to have a very tough time even breaking 5.0s 0-60. If that metric doesn't matter to the people who are looking at a proclaimed "sports" sedan, with badging that's aimed at displaying the pinnacle of the brand's performance pedigree, then what exactly are you expecting? Mediocrity? Yes, there are haters, but there are also people who are simply blind loyalists and apologists who see nothing wrong with Acura, despite it being woefully behind its competition. 0-60, quarter mile, braking, handling ... and the same "the car isn't even out yet!" excuse. It's built on the same platform as the current 2G TLX with a motor producing 80 more HP. The S4 compared to the A4 shaves off about 0.5s to 60mph and about 0.6s off the quarter mile with a ~90HP disparity. The 2G TLX, at best, does 0-60 in 5.9s by C&D and 14.5s in the 1/4. It's not difficult to see what the Type-S will be doing.

Another thing that's been coming up, is people saying it shouldn't be compared to the Germans. Well, then what are we comparing it to? Any sensible car purchase is going to be a comparative shopping experience. You know who isn't comparing it? Emotional car purchasers who "love" a brand for whatever reason. If not, you're going to compare it to things in its segment and price range. "But those cars are more expensive!" And? You also get more for what you pay for. Better gas mileage, better performance and more prestige (and equally capable AWD systems to boot) ... and once you look past sticker price, there are people leasing the German brands for better deals than Acura, and leasing is by far the most common "purchase" option for cars in the segment.

Does this make the TLX a bad car? Absolutely not. It's getting great reviews as an all-around good car. I don't want this thing to fail either. It will definitely be a tough pill to swallow though, when looking at a mid-$50k sticker price, Type-S. Most of my negative reactions are towards people who are proclaiming, "OMG, Acura is back! / Type-S is fireeee! / Acura, taking over the industry wit da Type-S, y0~!! / [insert other unfounded asinine juvenile statement]". Meanwhile, the M340i will be pulling away from a light normally while you put your foot thru the floorboard in your Type-S ... and then you'll lower your window at the next light and shout over, "I almost had you, bro!" while the Bimmer owner gives you a confused look. Ok, an exaggeration, but I found it funny ...

Flapjackura

Great post and some great points. That said - Seems like a lot of folks overlook the elephant in the room regarding the Germans: long term reliability. That's not an emotional factor in car purchase - it's an extremely pragmatic one. Yes - on paper, certain competing Bimmer and Audi models look "better" than the Type S and both likely will outperform it. When they're not in the shop - and for many - that's huge. A lot more huge than a second or two difference in 0-60 times. I'd argue the choice of the "equivalent" BMW over the Type S is motivated more by the emotions of brand cache and prestige and not as much by the pragmatism of choosing reliability. The Acura defenders who seem overly emotional do have a very pragmatic leg to stand on when you factor reliability into the equation. Yes, Acura has struggled with reliability a bit in recent years but if you ask the man in the street if Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura vehicles are reliable, most will say yes. Many will also add that they make a lot of awesome cars, too. Ask the same folks about BMW and I would bet many would say - "I've heard they're awesome cars but they break down a lot". Let's face it - either way you swing on the reliability issue - car buying or leasing is an emotional decision as much of a pragmatic one and it's a delicate balance between the two.

Colorado Guy AF Ret.

The point was the Challenger is wider compared to the other cars in it's class. And, it's ALWAYS been known as WAY too heavy for what it's supposed to be. Just a fact.
And you admitted, it can't "hang" with the Mustang or the Camaro. Why....'cause it's way too heavy to start with, doesn't have the susp. or tuning etc. So, big deal...it has
a monster engine. Doesn't do you any good If the 5.0 Mustangs are eating your lunch on tracks, canyon carving, etc. Does it have a "fun factor" for what it is? Sure. Mic drop!!

leomio85

1,000% agree with you, and this is precisely why the Type-S is still on my list. I don't lease ... I prefer to purchase vehicles and keep them running for 10+yrs. I also prefer to work on my own cars, and "German engineering" makes me want to fly to Germany and bludgeon their engineers with blunt metal objects. But, then we go back to the fact that most of these cars are leased. During your standard lease of 3-4yrs, the Germans are very reliable, and they stand by their vehicles under warranty. Over that and it's a gamble. It's not so much that they're poorly made, it's the amount of hard plastics they use that become brittle over repeated heat cycles. The "hot V" design is wonderful for performance, but another disaster for long-term reliability.

The part of me that hates myself wants the M340i ... badly. The more pragmatic side of me says to stick with the Japanese. I've been vocal enough about my 2020 RDX's interior build quality, so I won't say anything more about what's potentially keeping me away from another Acura product. If the IS500 comes to fruition and it's sub-$60k, that'll probably be my next car (just throw snow shoes on there and RWD will be ok in the winter). Unless the TLX Type-S starts going on fire sale, but I doubt that's ever going to be the case. Heck, who knows ... I'll see what the styling is like on the next gen STi and that might even be a contender (though I suspect the ride will be way too harsh ... and the fact that sound deadening is basically non-existent). MK8 Golf R might be in the running, but I'm not a huge fan of the new styling. Jeep/Durango SRTs make my gonads tingle, but they're way too much (at least IMO). But I digress ...

Kense

People who keep harping on the Reliability German thing seem to all be going by hearsay , what some mechanic told them or past information. Yes, buy a used beat up German performance car you will run into issues. That's what many private mechanics work on. Cars that were not maintained well. Modern German cars will not run into many different issues than anybody else. It's not 1993 anymore. If you keep up with the maintenance you won't run into anything out of the norm with a high mileage car. Of course a $110K M5 will cost and arm and a leg to keep running after a point but something like an F80 M3 isn't some outrageously expensive car with a host of issues.

ELIN

I have heard that some German cars, like Mercedes, tend to be overly complex to perform maintenance on. Even my former project manager who got me hooked on MB stopped doing his own oil changes with his first Mercedes. In my line of work, increasing complexity typically leads to errors in the final product, especially if humans are working on them.

Japanese cars are relatively straightforward to maintain, perhaps lending to higher reliability.

Colorado Guy AF Ret.

Over 75% of new Vette owners will be driving them on the streets and cruising. That's just a fact. Sure some will be taken to the track, etc. That's the other almost 25%. The Vette is a great
daily driver...and Chevy wanted that. It's NOT a "sub 3 sec. car." Sub 4 sec, OK. It's not a "track car" per se. It is very "track capable" but, Chevy wanted a great all around sports car, knowing
the folks who would be buying it. I've owned them. Had a '21 on order. But, with all their issues and some quality problems, and the LONG wait to get one, I dropped out. For now.

And I disagree that "most people" who want the TLX Type S want to be doing stop light racing most of the time. NO..that's not why they are going to buy them. I've owned a lot of high perf. cars,
and I certainly wasn't always the fastest or cared if I was or wasn't. It was the overall driving experience and joy of driving the car that mattered the most. IF I wanted to be the "stop light king" then
I would have built a car JUST FOR THAT PURPOSE. To kick everyone's butt, stop to stop. I do think some of the younger crowd wants to drag race the streets more than us older folks. But,
doesn't mean I don't get a kick out of doing it once in awhile with my 500 hp Mustang. But, that's NOT why I bought it. The Tesla S kicks all our butts out there. I know...the very first one I ever saw
on the road challenged me. I didn't know what it was all about. He took off and it was like a 30.06 rifle bullet leaving the barrel. Damn that thing is freakin fast. Oh well...that's OK. I enjoyed my
V8 Mustang, it's deep growl and yes, it was quick and handled. That was my '14 GT. My '19 is that and more. But, not the fastest....and....I DON'T GIVE A DAMN!! Many love my car...I get compliments
every time I take it out, many would love to own it, and I enjoy driving it...with a smile on my face each time I hear it growl. It's about the TOTAL overall driving experience....that MOST want.

Oh, and I'm buying a Type S. For the "total experience behind the wheel." If you beat me to the next light....I DON'T GIVE A DAMN. I think you have had to own MANY cars over time to truly learn
what the "real pleasure is" from owning a great car. And, it's NOT just about how much HP you have...or IF you are 2 tenths slower or faster than the next guy. Owning over 60 vehicles I have
had an "education" of what puts a smile on your face. My Corvettes, Supra turbos, Saleen Mustangs, Cobra Mustangs....they weren't the fastest on the roads. But, damn, they were fun to drive
and own. Yes, I was "younger once" and I did race more then on the streets....but, I grew up and learned some things. Back then, IF I got pulled over it wasn't a HUGE deal. Today, exhibition of speed,
reckless driving, going over a certain speed......ins. costs....the whole thing ends up costing a few thousand $$. Am I a car guy...car lover....sometimes street racer?? YES. Race...rarely now.
And, my Type S won't be the fastest out there....SO WHAT?? LOL! Here it comes folks.....I DON'T GIVE A DAMN!! But, it sure will be an overall fun car to own, drive, and enjoy.

So, in conclusion....I know...some of you were hoping...WHEN???...LOL! If you tough guy hot rodders out there who think it's ONLY about the fact that your ride is 3 tenths faster than
another car, then you are missing out on the OVERALL joy and fun of owning a great car....for ALL that it offers. IF winning every stop light is your thing...more power to you..get it?....more power? LOL!

leomio85

Not complex at all ... just a PITA to remove the cover(s) if you want to drain from the pan. It's actually the accepted service method to siphon the oil out from the top with a pump, which I'm not a huge fan of. Same for Audi & BMW I believe. This is also why the cartridge-style oil filter is right there on top of the engine.

ELIN

Does that mean you do your own oil change?

leomio85

Way too high. I'd be surprised if even 5% of Vette owners actually took their vehicles to the track. At least the ones who buy them new.

The TLX is a great car all around, but that's not to say that the cars it's being compared against aren't also very good at just about everything. Interior & exterior quality, NVH, ride quality & handling, etc etc. Sure, if you're comparing it to a Charger Scat Pack, you have a case. But, against the Germans and even Koreans ... you're running into some stiff competition there.

leomio85

I do. And Acura, being an arm of Honda, thankfully make most of their services quite easy.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

With all due respect to the Hellcat, I think when it comes to handling, it's more than just lap times.

When you have fat, grippy tires and lots of power, generally the car will be decently fast on a track. But handling IMO is more than that.

Here's how C/D describes the hellcat at VIR:

"Even this smaller Hellcat is big and weighty—just 61 pounds lighter than that 2016 Charger—and it moves with consequence. You feel that in all its responses. But there’s no denying the joy when, after a seeming eternity, you finally get to straighten the steering wheel, flatten the accelerator, and let the big dog eat. It ate up 148.8 mph on the front straight. And that’s really what it came here to do, wider tires or not."

The bolded part is key. It suggests the car feels heavy, has poor static balance, and need patience to get around corners. Should you brake too late or too abruptly, you will end up sideway. Should you apply too much throttle at corner exit, you will get big oversteer and probably miss the next corner. The key technique to tame it is "slow in, slow out", i.e., very much like driving a conventional muscle car.

BEAR-AvHistory

Guy must have been Brain dead. Unscrew the drain plug let it empty put on a fresh washer reinstall the drain plug. The oil filter is on top of the engine & is changed from above. Unscrew the cap separate the filter from the cap, press on the new filter put on a fresh o-ring reinstall the cap. Personally don't see anything more complex in a BMW engine than in my Cobras Ford engine. If anything the BMW has 2 less cylinders, 2 less spark plugs, 8 less valves, springs & retainers. Do all maintenance on out of warranty BMW's myself.

A world class 8ZF is less complex than a Ford, Chevy or Acura 10AT.

4G-Lover

You have no freaking idea of what you are talking about...drive one of these (especially a widebody) and report back. I remind you that the Challenger/Charger duo are full size cars.

The Challenger is not supposed to "hang with the Camaro and the Stang", as I said, it's a full size car, on the flip side, it handily beats these two in comfort for long trips and it actually has room for two adults in the back. It's a Grand Tourer which happen to perform quite well on the track considering its size and weight

If you think it is all engine and nothing else you are sorely mistaken......it uses still one of best automatic transmission in the business, braking is phenomenal, DWB front suspension with dual pivot, 5 links rear suspension, all the Hellcat & Redeye use a torque vectoring eDiff in the back.

Even inside, now all the Chargers and Challengers can be had with Nappa leather wrapped dashboard and door panels, Alcantara ceiling and steering wheel, real Carbon Fiber trim. The Laguna leather seats are gorgeous and the U Connect is still one the best infotainment system regardless of price.

As I said, drive one and report back

4G-Lover

No, you don't have a case at all...I'm ready to bet that the Scat Pack will run circles around the new Type S considering Acura sad tradition of overpromising and under delivering.

I'm not talking only about performance but also level of appointment inside....the Charger can be had with Alcantara ceiling and steering wheel, real carbon fiber trim, they have real metal paddle shifters and the Lacuna leather SRT sport seats are fantastic.

fiatlux

Hold on, so because the car is wider than the other cars in its class, is heavier than the other cars in its class, and is slower around a track than the other cars in the class, it's inferior?

Are you talking about the TLX or Challenger, because what you said is true for both.

Carnage719

Ahh, just as I called it.

leomio85

Holy crap. I stand corrected. The Scat Pack actually performs quite well on the skid pad and brakes quite proficiently. As for the interior, I'll disagree ... it's subjective, obviously, but I think FCA's interiors basically all look like doodoo. The Ram Limited's interior is pretty nice looking though.

4G-Lover

You may not like the retro look of the interior and it's fine....but properly appointed the quality is there.

bilirubin

The 540i might not be a direct competitor in terms of price or segment, but it's pretty close to the TLX Type S in terms of size, weight, power and (possibly) performance. C&D just tested the updated 540i xDrive 3.0T mild hybrid and it did 0-60 in 4.7s. That's actually not any better than the prior non-hybrid set-up, but the 5-60 time is a good 0.4s quicker now (5.2 vs 5.6).

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

Flapjackura

This is a great point - but - there's a helluva lot of "hearsay" out there - just saying. There's a perception - a strong one - out there, that the Japanese do long-term reliability better than the Germans do.

BEAR-AvHistory

Bottom line is it still turned in better lap times than 177 other cars. A full size car that beat names like

Caddy ATS-V
MB E63 AMG S
BMW M4
Shelby GT 500
Corvette Z06
Camaro SS 1LE

And the list goes on & on Jaguar, Porsche, Audi, Lotus, Lexus

Point is like it or not, personally would not buy one, Its much more than the fat 1960's barge that can't turn or stop that the Colorado Air Force Guy was claiming with "doesn't handle, too heavy, too wide, etc, etc. But, boy is is FAST!! LOL!! In a straight line" is a clueless statement much like "Over 75% of new Vette owners will be driving them on the streets and cruising. That's just a fact. Sure some will be taken to the track, etc. That's the other almost 25%"

The C8 site pretty much goes with under 5%. Corvette does not really cater to the road course track rats. With the C8 most guys over 6ft will have issues with their helmet contacting the roof. Kind of hard to pass the broomstick test with an open car.



Most common of the race ready cars that I have seen are Miata or 3 series BMW. Even at the AutoX that have more relaxed safety rules show not many Corvettes like the blue ones up.

ELIN

I wouldn't say brain dead as he's one of the smartest guys I know. He's got a mechanical engineering degree and races with his '97 Porsche 911 (among his stable of cars) when weather permits. He complains far too often about spending money on tires as he goes through them fairly quickly on the track.

The point is, he was doing all oil changes himself on the other cars but thought the Mercedes was unnecessarily complicated. A guy who's lived his life around cars probably wouldn't bat an eye on any oil change but again, he's an engineer and cars are his hobby.

ELIN

Acura shot itself in the foot on the Type S when it announced that the amendments were nearly identical to the A-Spec's (missing Advance's luxury features). It can't compete with those mid-size German sedans as Acura forgot to bring more to the table.

The fact that the MDX Type S gets more leads me to believe that the TLX won't be its top sedan for long. Any news on an RLX or Legend reboot?

Vicious Type S

interior design style is subjective, but I seriously don't get why people like Alcantara, the material is garbage and doesn't last.

BEAR-AvHistory

ELIN

Thanks for sharing! 2 questions:

1) Is Mercedes' MB-Tex equivalent to Alcantara?

2) I've heard video reviews referring to Alcantara in the TLX although it's not advertised anywhere. Are they referring to the micro-suede in the center of the A-Spec seats?

BEAR-AvHistory

It is GM's version of Alcantara, which they call "microsuede." Can't help you on MB have not had one since 1990 & was leather, but BMW non leather is a leather look alike SensaTec Upholstery. Would guess the MB is the same.

ELIN

Very informative videos. Thanks for sharing!

In addition to the underbody panels that need to be removed on the Mercedes, removing the filter is trickier also as it's fairly tight in that area compared to the Porsche. That also means it's harder to keep that area clean from drips as well.

For someone who races, I would imagine having to remove the underbody panel every time could be a chore!