Maybe Leaving Acura for Infiniti
01-05-2012, 09:48 PM
#281
Drifting
^^I was curious as to whether g37 has driven the TL. Still am.
01-05-2012, 10:09 PM
#282
Burning Brakes
^^^^ honestly I haven't yet. Here's the issue, Acura hasn't done a very good job of convincing me the TL is worth my time. And I'm assuming a lot of other people. Infiniti on the other hand convinced me their cars were worth looking at before I even rented one for a week. BMW same thing, they convinced me their cars were something special. Acura has to do something as I really like Honda engineering.
Very few opinions in the rags say the TL is at the top of the list. I have no brand loyalty and like to jump around so I'm definitely not a shill for BMW or Infiniti nor do I own any stock in those companies.
I usually don't let the rags steer my decision, but the last TL I was in 2010, was a very nice car, just not my style. The thing about the g that sold it was the rwd bias with awd.
The thinking about the 5 series, is the combination of class, tech, variety and performance is superb and executed almost flawlessly. I know audi is stiff completion but I'm more of a bimmer fan.
Very few opinions in the rags say the TL is at the top of the list. I have no brand loyalty and like to jump around so I'm definitely not a shill for BMW or Infiniti nor do I own any stock in those companies.
I usually don't let the rags steer my decision, but the last TL I was in 2010, was a very nice car, just not my style. The thing about the g that sold it was the rwd bias with awd.
The thinking about the 5 series, is the combination of class, tech, variety and performance is superb and executed almost flawlessly. I know audi is stiff completion but I'm more of a bimmer fan.
Last edited by g37guy01; 01-05-2012 at 10:12 PM.
01-05-2012, 11:24 PM
#283
They have a really, really nice road feel to them, which BMW is known for
Here's the issue, Acura hasn't done a very good job of convincing me the TL is worth my time.
01-06-2012, 12:12 AM
#284
This is the thing Saturno cant seem to grasp is that the majority of the public that shop this segment dont compare the two. It doesnt mean someone wont cross-shop them on rare occasion but the majority dont.
The author of the graph has many other vehicles that arent mid-size in there and he's missing some others like Buick (that you mentioned earlier) are also not on the list
The only exception in that list, as the author clearly explain, is the Hyundai Genesis which is included because of the technical peculiarity of that car (RWD, very refined chassis and V6 and V8 engines) which puts it among the luxury class (no other mainstream RWD cars exist other than the large size sedan 300 and Charger).
The only factual thing in the graph is X brand model and its sales for that month
The majority of TL sales in that graph are obviously the FWD version and the majority of the 5 series will be the 528i/535i. The FWD version of the TL is more commonly shopped with mainstream/premium brands ie:Maxima, Lacrosse etc.
This also brings up the Acura TL marketing material that is posted in red by him when these topics appear. (wish i would have never showed him that link now). Saturno always posts that and insinuates that the TL moved up into the 5 series etc competition because of their marketing material. If he ever did his research he would see that Acura has tried marketing the TL towards vehicles like the 5 series (secondary to obviously the 3 series) ever since the mid 90's when the TL first came out. This was due to the 3 series being classified as a Subcompact and the 5 Series a compact vehicle back then.
I never said that the previous generation could not be compared/cross shopped by some users to their contemporary entry/mid level 5 Series....I personally do not believe in not comparing two cars just because one is FWD and the other is RWD....and the vast majority of the driving public does not even know the difference between the two anyway....
By the way, you never did provide to me any link or any factual information for that matter....
If you actually look at Acura's marketing material for the RL it specifically points out the market it competes with is the 535i, A6 3.0T etc etc, but for some reason thats always conveniently left out.....as you mentioned earlier, its easy to Cherry pick stats, but its also just as easy to manipulate them.
I like how you have your tap dancing shoes on now and your trying to split hairs. If you want to really do that the 4G TL is only .7 Cubic feet (total volume) from being classified as a compact car.....both the G and TL are VERY close and at the very small/low end of the mid-size class.
I already mentioned to you that the Panamera which you love to bring up all the time, as a full size car has a smaller passenger volume than a TL.....you started playing with numbers, erroneously declaring that the G had more passenger volume, not me....
Yet, you and winstrol always make comments in these G vs TL threads that people "dont mind giving up a little performance to get the much larger and roomier TL" or " The TL has moved up and is more in the class of the 5 series, A6 etc and isnt really comparable to the G".
Please tell us why the 4G TL is so Magical that even though they are very close to each other and in the same class as the TL, it's so much better. If its just your own personal bias thats fine, or is it lack of knowledge or both??
Please tell us why the 4G TL is so Magical that even though they are very close to each other and in the same class as the TL, it's so much better. If its just your own personal bias thats fine, or is it lack of knowledge or both??
The TL has some edge also in the features/gizmo/stereo areas as well as interior finishing (I repeat, IMHO).
There is nothign "magical" about it.
Personally I love the G, it is a gorgeaous car, if they had the AWD available with manual transmission I could have gone the Infiniti way.....
.....and the TL SH-AWD manual does not give up that much performance compared to a G37 sedan (manual or automatic).
01-06-2012, 06:14 AM
#285
I can only speak for myself, I cross shopped all of the higher end mid size and smaller cars. My interest was to find the best car "for me" and it didn't matter if it was classified as a mid size or not! I was driving a 528i untill I bought my SH AWD...
To be honest, I drove a couple of 3 series cars, the TSX, Lexus, you name it.
Not everyone shops cars because they worry about what the mags say or how one person or other classify it, many, if not most shop to find what they need/want.
To be honest, I drove a couple of 3 series cars, the TSX, Lexus, you name it.
Not everyone shops cars because they worry about what the mags say or how one person or other classify it, many, if not most shop to find what they need/want.
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01-06-2012, 07:55 AM
#287
Burning Brakes
The rags can say what they want about the manual, since I won't drive one except for a weekend car, I really don't car.
I don't know what "world class" means in this context. The vehicles in this segment as basically all world class, even the TL.
Last edited by g37guy01; 01-06-2012 at 07:57 AM.
01-06-2012, 08:00 AM
#288
Burning Brakes
I can only speak for myself, I cross shopped all of the higher end mid size and smaller cars. My interest was to find the best car "for me" and it didn't matter if it was classified as a mid size or not! I was driving a 528i untill I bought my SH AWD...
To be honest, I drove a couple of 3 series cars, the TSX, Lexus, you name it.
Not everyone shops cars because they worry about what the mags say or how one person or other classify it, many, if not most shop to find what they need/want.
To be honest, I drove a couple of 3 series cars, the TSX, Lexus, you name it.
Not everyone shops cars because they worry about what the mags say or how one person or other classify it, many, if not most shop to find what they need/want.
01-06-2012, 09:10 AM
#290
Suzuka Master
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Thought this might add some fuel.
(Reuters) - BMW (BMWG.DE) grabbed the top spot in the U.S. luxury auto market in 2011, edging out Daimler AG's (DAIGn.DE) Mercedes-Benz brand, as both German automakers took advantage of inventory problems for Toyota Motor Corp's Lexus lineup, according to company figures issued on Thursday.
The BMW brand sold 247,907 vehicles in 2011, up 13 percent from the previous year. Mercedes-Benz brand sold 245,231 vehicles, also up 13 percent.
Further down the list
Honda's Acura brand also suffered from effects of the Japanese earthquake, and saw sales drop 8 percent to 123,299 vehicles.
In seventh place was Volkswagen AG's (VOWG_p.DE) Audi with sales of 117,561, up 16 percent. Nissan Motor Co's Infiniti, also impacted by the Japan earthquake, sold 98,461 vehicles, down 5 percent.
(Reuters) - BMW (BMWG.DE) grabbed the top spot in the U.S. luxury auto market in 2011, edging out Daimler AG's (DAIGn.DE) Mercedes-Benz brand, as both German automakers took advantage of inventory problems for Toyota Motor Corp's Lexus lineup, according to company figures issued on Thursday.
The BMW brand sold 247,907 vehicles in 2011, up 13 percent from the previous year. Mercedes-Benz brand sold 245,231 vehicles, also up 13 percent.
Further down the list
Honda's Acura brand also suffered from effects of the Japanese earthquake, and saw sales drop 8 percent to 123,299 vehicles.
In seventh place was Volkswagen AG's (VOWG_p.DE) Audi with sales of 117,561, up 16 percent. Nissan Motor Co's Infiniti, also impacted by the Japan earthquake, sold 98,461 vehicles, down 5 percent.
01-06-2012, 01:12 PM
#291
I drive in Manhattan like conditions, no more manuals.
The rags can say what they want about the manual, since I won't drive one except for a weekend car, I really don't car.
I don't know what "world class" means in this context. The vehicles in this segment as basically all world class, even the TL.
The rags can say what they want about the manual, since I won't drive one except for a weekend car, I really don't car.
I don't know what "world class" means in this context. The vehicles in this segment as basically all world class, even the TL.
Not to overvalue this point but it really is a big deal for those who want or perhaps even need AWD. Understandably, it's not for everyone. I know many would just prefer a good old fashioned RWD setup where it applies but there is nothing really unique about that. You can get it in a G, the 3, C class, IS, etc and that's not to take anything away from those cars as they are all great and very capable in their own rights, it's just to point out the difference.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 01-06-2012 at 01:16 PM.
01-06-2012, 02:50 PM
#292
Drifting
I think by world class he is reffering to the torque vectoring AWD and 6MT combo in a mid size package, even in AT. Not sure anyone else offers that anywhere, the S4 is the closest thing to it. It's possible the next M5 and S6 will offer this combo but we are talking about double the price that it is reserved for.
Not to overvalue this point but it really is a big deal for those who want or perhaps even need AWD. Understandably, it's not for everyone. I know many would just prefer a good old fashioned RWD setup where it applies but there is nothing really unique about that. You can get it in a G, the 3, C class, IS, etc and that's not to take anything away from those cars as they are all great and very capable in their own rights, it's just to point out the difference.
Not to overvalue this point but it really is a big deal for those who want or perhaps even need AWD. Understandably, it's not for everyone. I know many would just prefer a good old fashioned RWD setup where it applies but there is nothing really unique about that. You can get it in a G, the 3, C class, IS, etc and that's not to take anything away from those cars as they are all great and very capable in their own rights, it's just to point out the difference.
Fast forward a few months. The first time I drove an SH-AWD TL and experienced what that system is capable of (especially on dry roads) I was sold. And my average MPG sitting at 14,000 miles is a tick over 25 in half highway/half stop and go traffic. I couldn't be happier with this AWD package and doubt I'd go back to FWD (or RWD as long as I live in an area with rain and winter weather) again, assuming an SH-AWD-like vehicle is available.
01-06-2012, 04:02 PM
#293
Burning Brakes
I think by world class he is reffering to the torque vectoring AWD and 6MT combo in a mid size package, even in AT. Not sure anyone else offers that anywhere, the S4 is the closest thing to it. It's possible the next M5 and S6 will offer this combo but we are talking about double the price that it is reserved for.
Not to overvalue this point but it really is a big deal for those who want or perhaps even need AWD. Understandably, it's not for everyone. I know many would just prefer a good old fashioned RWD setup where it applies but there is nothing really unique about that. You can get it in a G, the 3, C class, IS, etc and that's not to take anything away from those cars as they are all great and very capable in their own rights, it's just to point out the difference.
Not to overvalue this point but it really is a big deal for those who want or perhaps even need AWD. Understandably, it's not for everyone. I know many would just prefer a good old fashioned RWD setup where it applies but there is nothing really unique about that. You can get it in a G, the 3, C class, IS, etc and that's not to take anything away from those cars as they are all great and very capable in their own rights, it's just to point out the difference.
01-06-2012, 05:04 PM
#294
^^^^ honestly I haven't yet. Here's the issue, Acura hasn't done a very good job of convincing me the TL is worth my time. And I'm assuming a lot of other people. Infiniti on the other hand convinced me their cars were worth looking at before I even rented one for a week. BMW same thing, they convinced me their cars were something special. Acura has to do something as I really like Honda engineering.
Very few opinions in the rags say the TL is at the top of the list. I have no brand loyalty and like to jump around so I'm definitely not a shill for BMW or Infiniti nor do I own any stock in those companies.
I usually don't let the rags steer my decision, but the last TL I was in 2010, was a very nice car, just not my style. The thing about the g that sold it was the rwd bias with awd.
The thinking about the 5 series, is the combination of class, tech, variety and performance is superb and executed almost flawlessly. I know audi is stiff completion but I'm more of a bimmer fan.
Very few opinions in the rags say the TL is at the top of the list. I have no brand loyalty and like to jump around so I'm definitely not a shill for BMW or Infiniti nor do I own any stock in those companies.
I usually don't let the rags steer my decision, but the last TL I was in 2010, was a very nice car, just not my style. The thing about the g that sold it was the rwd bias with awd.
The thinking about the 5 series, is the combination of class, tech, variety and performance is superb and executed almost flawlessly. I know audi is stiff completion but I'm more of a bimmer fan.
01-06-2012, 08:56 PM
#295
Three Wheelin'
I have both. The GS is mine, and the SH-AWD is my wifes, but I drive hers quite a bit. They are very different cars, but I like them both. If you want a sports sedan, the TL is a no-brainer. If you want a commuter car for running across town on the freeway, the Lexus is more of a "relaxed fit" car. It works for me because I have a Corvette for weekends.
01-06-2012, 09:07 PM
#296
I dont think you realise that this is exactly what your doing though whenever your posting a sales graph of the TL and a 5 series etc and why its very misleading. Maybe this is a misunderstanding though as I see in the rest of your post your now stating many things are your personal opinion, Whereas before it looked like you where passing off your opinion as fact.
I dont understand how you keep trying to say that all of those vehicles on the list are mid-sized. It's pretty black and white when you research them that they all arent mid-sized, but whatever, as that horse has been beaten to death.
Im also going to assume that its just your opinion you think Buick isnt a premium/entry level luxury brand like Acura, because GM and the rest of the auto industry would very much disagree with you.
All vehicle listed in the mid-sized section are mid size....Buick is not officially a premium/luxury brand so is not listed (still someone may cross shop a Buick and a BMW...it can happen)
The only exception in that list, as the author clearly explain, is the Hyundai Genesis which is included because of the technical peculiarity of that car (RWD, very refined chassis and V6 and V8 engines) which puts it among the luxury class (no other mainstream RWD cars exist other than the large size sedan 300 and Charger).
The only exception in that list, as the author clearly explain, is the Hyundai Genesis which is included because of the technical peculiarity of that car (RWD, very refined chassis and V6 and V8 engines) which puts it among the luxury class (no other mainstream RWD cars exist other than the large size sedan 300 and Charger).
Im also going to assume that its just your opinion you think Buick isnt a premium/entry level luxury brand like Acura, because GM and the rest of the auto industry would very much disagree with you.
01-06-2012, 09:09 PM
#297
I can only speak for myself, I cross shopped all of the higher end mid size and smaller cars. My interest was to find the best car "for me" and it didn't matter if it was classified as a mid size or not! I was driving a 528i untill I bought my SH AWD...
To be honest, I drove a couple of 3 series cars, the TSX, Lexus, you name it.
Not everyone shops cars because they worry about what the mags say or how one person or other classify it, many, if not most shop to find what they need/want.
To be honest, I drove a couple of 3 series cars, the TSX, Lexus, you name it.
Not everyone shops cars because they worry about what the mags say or how one person or other classify it, many, if not most shop to find what they need/want.
01-06-2012, 09:17 PM
#298
01-06-2012, 11:15 PM
#299
I dont think you realise that this is exactly what your doing though whenever your posting a sales graph of the TL and a 5 series etc and why its very misleading. Maybe this is a misunderstanding though as I see in the rest of your post your now stating many things are your personal opinion, Whereas before it looked like you where passing off your opinion as fact.
I dont understand how you keep trying to say that all of those vehicles on the list are mid-sized. It's pretty black and white when you research them that they all arent mid-sized, but whatever, as that horse has been beaten to death.
I think the author of this data aggregator site lumped together cars that are comparable in exterior size and belonging to a luxury marque.
Coincidentally, all the cars lumped under the Small/Entry Luxury car chart on that site are all smaller in size than the vehicles in the luxury midsize chart even if there are differences among them (they lump together, for example, the BMW 1 Series with the much larger Cadillac CTS).
As I said before, I don't think I ever said that the TL main competitor is the 5 Series..but a competitor it is and I think is more so (especially because of size) than the 3 Series....I find hard to believe that someone attracted by the agility of a 3 Series would be seriously interested in the much larger TL (cramped rear seats aside...)
Now we can debate all you want about how many actually cross shop them.....we may never know and all we can do is to guess....however there are enough anecdotical evidence of a quite bit of cross shopping between the TL and the 528/535.....us TL owners on this site, people that I know (which went either way), few of 5 Series in the Acura dealer used parking lot that I personally saw (and the salesman confirmed they were TL clients).
A former 528 owner that went for the TL just posted on this thread (AEmedic).
Now someone else said that us, forum posters do not really count.....faulty logic to me...why not??? We are all car enthusiasts and we all dream about (and want) machinery such as the M5, AMG or RS6 too but obviously nobody in his/her right mind would say that we cross shopped them.......but a 528/535?? You betcha, is not that much of a superior non affordable car compared to the TL if we did want to buy it....to each his own....
Im also going to assume that its just your opinion you think Buick isnt a premium/entry level luxury brand like Acura, because GM and the rest of the auto industry would very much disagree with you.
Brand perception can and does change with the locales...Honda is almost considered a premium brand in some countries of Europe, the Accord in Italy is often pitted against Audi A4, BMW 3 Series and Mercedes C Class (mainly all of them in diesel versions) and it comes out really well......in USA nobody would ever dream of comparing an Accord with a 3 Series.
When Nissan did still sell the Maxima in Europe (they stopped with the 5th generation) it was compared to the mid/entry level 5 Series, again, a blasphemy here in Northamerica (for the specialized media).
Personally I did cross shop my 5th generation 6 speed manual Maxima with a BMW 530i (E39 at that time) in 2002......and I have not been the only one....an almost impossibility for the car media experts.....
Last edited by saturno_v; 01-06-2012 at 11:18 PM.
01-07-2012, 12:18 AM
#300
Burning Brakes
By cross shopped I assume you didn't mean looked at. Cross shopped implies ready willing and able and on the short list. When I got my e36 I cross shopped a navigator. I called it that but it was more like looked at.
When I got my g I also "cross shopped" the TL, Camry, accord, CTS, MKS, Taurus, es350 and 3 series.
Yep TL vs 3 series. I thought about "cross shopping" the 535 as well.
When I got my g I also "cross shopped" the TL, Camry, accord, CTS, MKS, Taurus, es350 and 3 series.
Yep TL vs 3 series. I thought about "cross shopping" the 535 as well.
Last edited by g37guy01; 01-07-2012 at 12:21 AM.
01-07-2012, 12:39 AM
#301
I dont think you realise that this is exactly what your doing though whenever your posting a sales graph of the TL and a 5 series etc and why its very misleading. Maybe this is a misunderstanding though as I see in the rest of your post your now stating many things are your personal opinion, Whereas before it looked like you where passing off your opinion as fact.
You're not, we're not, maybe a few bystanders but isn't that more their fault or plain ignorance on their part vs us not having a valid and warranted point, comparison and/or discussion?
By that same token, I don't exactly see you playing referee in worrying about it being an appropriate comparison or a level playing field when it comes to comparing FWD/AWD mid size sedans to RWD compacts (or that specific market of car anyway), especially on the basis of performance. That distinction is also warranted or at least some consideration for the differences. If it works one way, it has to work the other way as well.
If I am not mistaken, you regularly bring up the point about an article or study suggesting that Acura was or is mostly cross shopped with mainstream brands as opposed to other luxury brands and probably don't have an issue making many of those comparisons yourself which in itself is also misleading.
That's not any better but I do think we have done a good job of at least keeping the comparison of the TL and 5 series (etc) in the appropriate context of areas where they share similar traits (and even pricing) but also noting where they don't, like overall luxury position, including higher end offerings of engines, trims and features, as well as exceeding price points and ranges.
Even went as far as to include other cars that could easily replace the TL in that comparison to keep it as fair and as objective as it can be. I am not so sure that everyone is playing by their own rules but like it has been extended to us, we will give you the benefit of the doubt.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 01-07-2012 at 12:47 AM.
01-07-2012, 12:49 AM
#302
01-07-2012, 12:59 AM
#303
Instructor
FWIW, when I was shopping for the TL I looked at 3 series and immediately knocked it off my list for space concerns. To me it was between the 5 series and TL due to size similarity. But once the 535 was loaded with options I wanted, it was beyond what I wanted to spend. I then looked at older 5 series, but decided against that due to reliability concerns and I just loved the TL the minute I drove it.
I guess people subconsciously pick whether they want to compare based on price or size and features (and/or assign weightages to each). Price would put TL closer to 3 series, while size would pit it against the 5 series.
I guess people subconsciously pick whether they want to compare based on price or size and features (and/or assign weightages to each). Price would put TL closer to 3 series, while size would pit it against the 5 series.
01-07-2012, 09:46 AM
#304
Burning Brakes
I think you made my point. Someone who is willing to write a check for the 535 and who actually wants the car is not going to walk away with the TL. Someone who likes the TL and as an aside thinks they will "cross-shop" the 535 without really wanting the vehicle, will buy the TL and say they "cross-shopped" the 535. I think it's a rare bird who will actually "step up" to the 535 or "step down" to the TL.
Which is why I made the distinction in ones mind between looking and cross-shopping. Unless you lived under a rock and was seriously considering the TL and 535 but thought the 535 was a mid-$40s car....
But I think you are right one point. The starting point for the vehicle is the need, the need grows into a want. The want grows into a sale, and then you spend the next few years defending your purchase. lol.
Which is why I made the distinction in ones mind between looking and cross-shopping. Unless you lived under a rock and was seriously considering the TL and 535 but thought the 535 was a mid-$40s car....
But I think you are right one point. The starting point for the vehicle is the need, the need grows into a want. The want grows into a sale, and then you spend the next few years defending your purchase. lol.
Last edited by g37guy01; 01-07-2012 at 09:49 AM.
01-07-2012, 10:29 AM
#305
Burning Brakes
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I think you made my point. Someone who is willing to write a check for the 535 and who actually wants the car is not going to walk away with the TL. Someone who likes the TL and as an aside thinks they will "cross-shop" the 535 without really wanting the vehicle, will buy the TL and say they "cross-shopped" the 535. I think it's a rare bird who will actually "step up" to the 535 or "step down" to the TL.
Which is why I made the distinction in ones mind between looking and cross-shopping. Unless you lived under a rock and was seriously considering the TL and 535 but thought the 535 was a mid-$40s car....
But I think you are right one point. The starting point for the vehicle is the need, the need grows into a want. The want grows into a sale, and then you spend the next few years defending your purchase. lol.
Which is why I made the distinction in ones mind between looking and cross-shopping. Unless you lived under a rock and was seriously considering the TL and 535 but thought the 535 was a mid-$40s car....
But I think you are right one point. The starting point for the vehicle is the need, the need grows into a want. The want grows into a sale, and then you spend the next few years defending your purchase. lol.
Actually, that's exactly what I did. I spent 3 hours at the BMW dealership thinking the 535 was the car for me. After several test drives I knew otherwise. I hadn't even considered a TL at the time, completely forgot they existed.
As has been stated earlier, I strongly suggest you take an afternoon and drive the '12 SH-AWD. I spent months researching and was giving up on finding the perfect car when I saw an Acura drive by and remembered the brand.
I think anyone who believes they're *stepping down* from a BMW to an Acura, or *Brand X not from Germany* has failed to do their homework.
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01-07-2012, 11:04 AM
#306
I think you made my point. Someone who is willing to write a check for the 535 and who actually wants the car is not going to walk away with the TL. Someone who likes the TL and as an aside thinks they will "cross-shop" the 535 without really wanting the vehicle, will buy the TL and say they "cross-shopped" the 535. I think it's a rare bird who will actually "step up" to the 535 or "step down" to the TL.
Actually, that's exactly what I did. I spent 3 hours at the BMW dealership thinking the 535 was the car for me. After several test drives I knew otherwise. I hadn't even considered a TL at the time, completely forgot they existed.
As has been stated earlier, I strongly suggest you take an afternoon and drive the '12 SH-AWD. I spent months researching and was giving up on finding the perfect car when I saw an Acura drive by and remembered the brand.
I think anyone who believes they're *stepping down* from a BMW to an Acura, or *Brand X not from Germany* has failed to do their homework.
As has been stated earlier, I strongly suggest you take an afternoon and drive the '12 SH-AWD. I spent months researching and was giving up on finding the perfect car when I saw an Acura drive by and remembered the brand.
I think anyone who believes they're *stepping down* from a BMW to an Acura, or *Brand X not from Germany* has failed to do their homework.
People that can comfortably afford a TL can afford a 528 or 535 the same....if they like the car and/or see the extra value in their judgement....not everyone stretch their last dollar on a monthly car payment...there are people like that but they are not the majority of car shoppers (especially premium car shoppers)...
01-07-2012, 12:28 PM
#307
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Exactly right.....
People that can comfortably afford a TL can afford a 528 or 535 the same....if they like the car and/or see the extra value in their judgement....not everyone stretch their last dollar on a monthly car payment...there are people like that but they are not the majority of car shoppers (especially premium car shoppers)...
I would think a large percentage of TL drivers cannot afford the $12K or 30% price spread between the base & top TL & could not afford a typical 528. Without interest on a 48 month loan it would cost $250 a month just to retire the principle on the spread between a Base & Advance.
Question: what percentage of sales is the SH-AWD Advance Package?
I think this group could realistically afford to cross shop the 528 if it was not fully optioned. My dealer has just two 528's one at $52K the other at $60K.
I don't think a 535 would be a good fit unless it was special ordered stripped from Germany. Most of the eleven 535's in my local dealers inventory start around $59/60K going up to $72K or at least $230 more a month then a SH-AWD or $480 an month over the base not including interest.
These are all the new 2012's & I believe the inventory selection 2/11 shows where they believe the heart of the market is for the 5 series because they are putting their money where their mouth is & they are moving the cars.
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Hamma Tyme (01-07-2012)
01-07-2012, 01:56 PM
#308
Back in 09-10 when I got my TL, if you wanted a mid size luxury sedan with AWD and a 6MT, you had two choices, one was the TL SH, the other was the last gen 528ix or 535ix, which is the more comparable model on the basis of performance. Some of us had no choice but to cross shop the two and it was not cross shopping for the sake of simply saying we cross shopped them, as it seriously came down to one or the other.
The 5 optioned like the TL was around $58k sticker but had around $10k of incentives to make room for the new gen model. So it was $48k for the BMW and $38k for the TL after negotiations. The TL finance at that price was comfortably in my budget, the extra $10k was not too much of a stretch either but leasing the BMW would have been my other option which made the payments nearly the same. I could have even done better on the 5's price but I didn't push the issue or pit dealer against dealer when I learned there might have beeen some issues getting exactly the build I wanted and the lingering thought that the next gen was due out shortly.
So there were some other factors involved but more importantly, the value proposition, reliability and resale eventually meant much more to me than the image or perception of the brand or the simple, over generalized thought that this car is considered greater than that car. It's a car I truly wanted for a long time even before that point but ended up getting two 3G TL's over the course instead because it was one of few other mid size luxury sedans I could at least get with a stick that was not also RWD. At that time, I used to commute extensively so leasing a 5 was not an issue and the car was always more money than I wanted to spend until a few years ago when they were giving them away and I barely had any commute, where leasing was now an option.
I know some might ask what did resale have to do with it if I was potentially leasing the 5? The truth is we all have a preference when it comes to leasing vs buying and I simply prefer financing even if it comes down to two payments being the same, one being a lease, the other a finance because I like the freedom that comes with owning, leasing can be considered a little pretentious and the finance would net me a good return on my money later, which ultimately means it's cheaper long term.
There were some other factors involved but it's realistic to say that I was set on the 5 for some time but the TL steered me away, it did help that I had great experiences with my last two Acura products. It just made me wonder what an extra $20k sticker was for when they could discount the car over $10k and still make money. Then I looked at the bigger picture and started wondering if the MSRP of $20k more was even justified in the first place and next to the TL it didn't seem like it and never does IMO but I am very practical and/or frugal that way. If I can get most of what I want, or what I am trying to accomplished, for a fraction of the cost, I will take the cheaper alternative 9 out of 10 times.
I know the TL is not as luxurious as a comparable 5 as a whole but the TL simply had a lot of things going for it in that comparison for less. Torque vectoring AWD, resale and reliability which I already discussed, not deal breakers by any means but the TL crash test was better and it had a slight performance edge as well as a few more up to date features the 5 lacked and vice versa but for the money and all, that's impressive. More on the subjective side, I preferred the interior style and layout of the TL and thought the stick in the Acura setup was better.
I might be one of those rare birds but at least I have now went over why. It's not really a matter of me justifying my purchase or decision either, it more of a justification for the comparison or the rationale in cross shopping the two cars because many don't seem to undertsand it. Truthfully, the new 5 has moved a bit further away from the old 5 and this gen TL as well but I don't think it's so far away now that the same type of comparison can't be made at all, they do still offer the 528's and stock 535's even though there is no more AWD 6MT option.
The 5 optioned like the TL was around $58k sticker but had around $10k of incentives to make room for the new gen model. So it was $48k for the BMW and $38k for the TL after negotiations. The TL finance at that price was comfortably in my budget, the extra $10k was not too much of a stretch either but leasing the BMW would have been my other option which made the payments nearly the same. I could have even done better on the 5's price but I didn't push the issue or pit dealer against dealer when I learned there might have beeen some issues getting exactly the build I wanted and the lingering thought that the next gen was due out shortly.
So there were some other factors involved but more importantly, the value proposition, reliability and resale eventually meant much more to me than the image or perception of the brand or the simple, over generalized thought that this car is considered greater than that car. It's a car I truly wanted for a long time even before that point but ended up getting two 3G TL's over the course instead because it was one of few other mid size luxury sedans I could at least get with a stick that was not also RWD. At that time, I used to commute extensively so leasing a 5 was not an issue and the car was always more money than I wanted to spend until a few years ago when they were giving them away and I barely had any commute, where leasing was now an option.
I know some might ask what did resale have to do with it if I was potentially leasing the 5? The truth is we all have a preference when it comes to leasing vs buying and I simply prefer financing even if it comes down to two payments being the same, one being a lease, the other a finance because I like the freedom that comes with owning, leasing can be considered a little pretentious and the finance would net me a good return on my money later, which ultimately means it's cheaper long term.
There were some other factors involved but it's realistic to say that I was set on the 5 for some time but the TL steered me away, it did help that I had great experiences with my last two Acura products. It just made me wonder what an extra $20k sticker was for when they could discount the car over $10k and still make money. Then I looked at the bigger picture and started wondering if the MSRP of $20k more was even justified in the first place and next to the TL it didn't seem like it and never does IMO but I am very practical and/or frugal that way. If I can get most of what I want, or what I am trying to accomplished, for a fraction of the cost, I will take the cheaper alternative 9 out of 10 times.
I know the TL is not as luxurious as a comparable 5 as a whole but the TL simply had a lot of things going for it in that comparison for less. Torque vectoring AWD, resale and reliability which I already discussed, not deal breakers by any means but the TL crash test was better and it had a slight performance edge as well as a few more up to date features the 5 lacked and vice versa but for the money and all, that's impressive. More on the subjective side, I preferred the interior style and layout of the TL and thought the stick in the Acura setup was better.
I might be one of those rare birds but at least I have now went over why. It's not really a matter of me justifying my purchase or decision either, it more of a justification for the comparison or the rationale in cross shopping the two cars because many don't seem to undertsand it. Truthfully, the new 5 has moved a bit further away from the old 5 and this gen TL as well but I don't think it's so far away now that the same type of comparison can't be made at all, they do still offer the 528's and stock 535's even though there is no more AWD 6MT option.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 01-07-2012 at 01:59 PM.
01-07-2012, 02:11 PM
#309
TL's MSRP look like $35600 base to $48,300 SH-AWD Advance.
I would think a large percentage of TL drivers cannot afford the $12K or 30% price spread between the base & top TL & could not afford a typical 528. Without interest on a 48 month loan it would cost $250 a month just to retire the principle on the spread between a Base & Advance.
Question: what percentage of sales is the SH-AWD Advance Package?
I think this group could realistically afford to cross shop the 528 if it was not fully optioned. My dealer has just two 528's one at $52K the other at $60K.
I don't think a 535 would be a good fit unless it was special ordered stripped from Germany. Most of the eleven 535's in my local dealers inventory start around $59/60K going up to $72K or at least $230 more a month then a SH-AWD or $480 an month over the base not including interest.
These are all the new 2012's & I believe the inventory selection 2/11 shows where they believe the heart of the market is for the 5 series because they are putting their money where their mouth is & they are moving the cars.
I would think a large percentage of TL drivers cannot afford the $12K or 30% price spread between the base & top TL & could not afford a typical 528. Without interest on a 48 month loan it would cost $250 a month just to retire the principle on the spread between a Base & Advance.
Question: what percentage of sales is the SH-AWD Advance Package?
I think this group could realistically afford to cross shop the 528 if it was not fully optioned. My dealer has just two 528's one at $52K the other at $60K.
I don't think a 535 would be a good fit unless it was special ordered stripped from Germany. Most of the eleven 535's in my local dealers inventory start around $59/60K going up to $72K or at least $230 more a month then a SH-AWD or $480 an month over the base not including interest.
These are all the new 2012's & I believe the inventory selection 2/11 shows where they believe the heart of the market is for the 5 series because they are putting their money where their mouth is & they are moving the cars.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 01-07-2012 at 02:18 PM.
01-07-2012, 02:59 PM
#310
Suzuka Master
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I believe the qualifier, Top TL model, is pretty much always left out for just plain TL creating the illusion "that anyone who can comfortably afford a TL" can buy a 528. This tends to create the perception there is a much larger segment of the TL buyers that are serious 528 cross shoppers. That being said, based on inventory levels at various BMW dealers I don’t even think the 528 buyers cross shop the 535 all that much. One of the two dealers within 25 miles has two 528’s the other has none. It would be interesting to see the overall 528 vs. 535 units sold per year in the US. The 328 vs. 335 to me is a whole other game & up to a certain price level if you can afford a TL you can afford a 328/335.
I don’t think anyone who is a Top model TL buyer would have any interest in my car due to intended usage & MSRP. Even most BMW buyers would opt for a 535 instead.
I accept the word of anyone here who says they seriously cross shopped the cars & went TL, but look at who posts here. There are about 30 regulars & maybe a dozen high count posters, most of which, if not all are in this thread. This does not IMHO really create much of a base to generalize about the overall TL shopping/buying decision process.
I don’t think anyone who is a Top model TL buyer would have any interest in my car due to intended usage & MSRP. Even most BMW buyers would opt for a 535 instead.
I accept the word of anyone here who says they seriously cross shopped the cars & went TL, but look at who posts here. There are about 30 regulars & maybe a dozen high count posters, most of which, if not all are in this thread. This does not IMHO really create much of a base to generalize about the overall TL shopping/buying decision process.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-07-2012 at 03:03 PM.
01-07-2012, 04:27 PM
#311
Burning Brakes
I accept what people did and it's not that I doubt anybody. What I doubt is there is a select group of people who would cross-shop the 528 and TL and walk away with the TL without including the rest of the mid-size entry luxury segment.
It follows then, there must be a group of people who would cross shop the G, CTS, Saab, etc. with the 528 and then buy the G, CTS, etc.
The 535 is a few thousand more and those looking at $45ish as their cap would probably not seriously consider the 535.
It follows then, there must be a group of people who would cross shop the G, CTS, Saab, etc. with the 528 and then buy the G, CTS, etc.
The 535 is a few thousand more and those looking at $45ish as their cap would probably not seriously consider the 535.
01-07-2012, 06:40 PM
#312
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I accept what people did and it's not that I doubt anybody. What I doubt is there is a select group of people who would cross-shop the 528 and TL and walk away with the TL without including the rest of the mid-size entry luxury segment.
It follows then, there must be a group of people who would cross shop the G, CTS, Saab, etc. with the 528 and then buy the G, CTS, etc.
The 535 is a few thousand more and those looking at $45ish as their cap would probably not seriously consider the 535.
It follows then, there must be a group of people who would cross shop the G, CTS, Saab, etc. with the 528 and then buy the G, CTS, etc.
The 535 is a few thousand more and those looking at $45ish as their cap would probably not seriously consider the 535.
01-07-2012, 07:28 PM
#313
Burning Brakes
Those are loaded up, and I'm sure there are a range of prices. But that's the point, comparing the $60K BMW against a $45K TL and buying the TL.
It's like walking into a Bentley dealership and buying a Sonota. I'm sure people do it, but I can't see this "the standard" fare.
It's like walking into a Bentley dealership and buying a Sonota. I'm sure people do it, but I can't see this "the standard" fare.
01-07-2012, 07:40 PM
#314
Burning Brakes
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Those are loaded up, and I'm sure there are a range of prices. But that's the point, comparing the $60K BMW against a $45K TL and buying the TL.
It's like walking into a Bentley dealership and buying a Sonota. I'm sure people do it, but I can't see this "the standard" fare.
It's like walking into a Bentley dealership and buying a Sonota. I'm sure people do it, but I can't see this "the standard" fare.
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01-07-2012, 07:52 PM
#315
Those are loaded up, and I'm sure there are a range of prices. But that's the point, comparing the $60K BMW against a $45K TL and buying the TL.
It's like walking into a Bentley dealership and buying a Sonota. I'm sure people do it, but I can't see this "the standard" fare.
It's like walking into a Bentley dealership and buying a Sonota. I'm sure people do it, but I can't see this "the standard" fare.
I have more options and a similarly sized car with my SH-AWD TL. There is no big leap from my 528i to my TL, this huge gap does not exist!
Comparing the switch from Bentley to Sonata is just ridiculous!
The 535 and the TL are not so far apart that someone "like me" wouldn't consider them both, because "I did"! I also considered many other cars, the SH-AWD TL was the best fit for performance and long term reliability.
BTW, I looked real hard at the 335D also...
01-07-2012, 08:16 PM
#316
By cross shopped I assume you didn't mean looked at. Cross shopped implies ready willing and able and on the short list. When I got my e36 I cross shopped a navigator. I called it that but it was more like looked at.
When I got my g I also "cross shopped" the TL, Camry, accord, CTS, MKS, Taurus, es350 and 3 series.
Yep TL vs 3 series. I thought about "cross shopping" the 535 as well.
When I got my g I also "cross shopped" the TL, Camry, accord, CTS, MKS, Taurus, es350 and 3 series.
Yep TL vs 3 series. I thought about "cross shopping" the 535 as well.
01-07-2012, 08:40 PM
#317
Burning Brakes
These comparisons are over the top! I just traded in my 08 528i and a buddy of mine has an 08 535i and the only difference in how they were outfitted was his had the turbos.
I have more options and a similarly sized car with my SH-AWD TL. There is no big leap from my 528i to my TL, this huge gap does not exist!
Comparing the switch from Bentley to Sonata is just ridiculous!
The 535 and the TL are not so far apart that someone "like me" wouldn't consider them both, because "I did"! I also considered many other cars, the SH-AWD TL was the best fit for performance and long term reliability.
BTW, I looked real hard at the 335D also...
I have more options and a similarly sized car with my SH-AWD TL. There is no big leap from my 528i to my TL, this huge gap does not exist!
Comparing the switch from Bentley to Sonata is just ridiculous!
The 535 and the TL are not so far apart that someone "like me" wouldn't consider them both, because "I did"! I also considered many other cars, the SH-AWD TL was the best fit for performance and long term reliability.
BTW, I looked real hard at the 335D also...
01-07-2012, 10:18 PM
#318
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You can get them cheaper pretty much only if you order the base car & wait a few months for it to build & ship.
That being said the two typical options packages on a build yourself site put you right at $59K. Most BMW inventory is made up of pretty standard packages across all the models.
Dealers in different areas might have a different package but what I saw is what is here. They had eleven cars one at $56K one at $59K the rest at $60K+ up to a fully loaded 535xi at $72K. A 550 takes you up to $80K all on the basic 5 shell.
As for the comment about the bells & whistles for $15K. BMW lets you buy anything over the base 528 car a la carte. Acura takes a $35,000 car adds $13K in mandatory options & lists the car for $48K. There is no "free stuff" the stuff is just packaged differently & price wise there is not much overlap in the TL/5 product lines.
One can always go back to the old argument the BMW is too expensive but in reality a product is worth what people are willing to pay for it & based on saturno_v's numbers 39,488 people bought 5 series in 2010 vs. the 34,049 who bought TL's. On the gross number sold I would expect the majority of 5 series went out the door at $57/58K+ while a majority of the TL's were base & more likely under $42K.
This year in a bad economy both MB & BMW were up 13% over the 2010 numbers. Its also been said here BMW buyers are stupid to overpay but they are not so stupid that they can’t get a job that allows them to overpay if they wish to indulge themselves.
The typical definition of a luxury item is an unnecessary indulgence & not the best bang for the buck.
That being said the two typical options packages on a build yourself site put you right at $59K. Most BMW inventory is made up of pretty standard packages across all the models.
Dealers in different areas might have a different package but what I saw is what is here. They had eleven cars one at $56K one at $59K the rest at $60K+ up to a fully loaded 535xi at $72K. A 550 takes you up to $80K all on the basic 5 shell.
As for the comment about the bells & whistles for $15K. BMW lets you buy anything over the base 528 car a la carte. Acura takes a $35,000 car adds $13K in mandatory options & lists the car for $48K. There is no "free stuff" the stuff is just packaged differently & price wise there is not much overlap in the TL/5 product lines.
One can always go back to the old argument the BMW is too expensive but in reality a product is worth what people are willing to pay for it & based on saturno_v's numbers 39,488 people bought 5 series in 2010 vs. the 34,049 who bought TL's. On the gross number sold I would expect the majority of 5 series went out the door at $57/58K+ while a majority of the TL's were base & more likely under $42K.
This year in a bad economy both MB & BMW were up 13% over the 2010 numbers. Its also been said here BMW buyers are stupid to overpay but they are not so stupid that they can’t get a job that allows them to overpay if they wish to indulge themselves.
The typical definition of a luxury item is an unnecessary indulgence & not the best bang for the buck.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-07-2012 at 10:21 PM.
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g37guy01 (01-07-2012)
01-07-2012, 10:36 PM
#319
This year in a bad economy both MB & BMW were up 13% over the 2010 numbers. Its also been said here BMW buyers are stupid to overpay but they are not so stupid that they can’t get a job that allows them to overpay if they wish to indulge themselves.
The typical definition of a luxury item is an unnecessary indulgence & not the best bang for the buck.
The typical definition of a luxury item is an unnecessary indulgence & not the best bang for the buck.
Well said! Very true!