Maybe Leaving Acura for Infiniti
12-26-2011, 06:32 PM
#121
Drifting
Lets see the 2 & 4 door 3’s are just about the same weight with the 4 door up about 30/35lbs, the AT is quicker then the MT according to info provided by BMW, both cars are available with summer tires. I did not look at what they had on the cars. That being said the BMW has run flats which most people looking for performance quickly get rid of because they don’t perform as well as get flats.
Agree the TL is bigger by about 300lbs but it also claims 5 more whp & is a 4X4. A trap speed spread of 8mph cannot be attributed to a 300lb spread in dry weight. Street start spread which I believe you always suggest as a meaning full number is 1.1 seconds which is an 88ft foot lead & not trivial in a 5-60 run.
Using a split trap speed of 104mph at the end of the quarter its makes the distance between cars about 150ft. Math might be off but should be close enough for government work, your mileage may vary.
The guys here have always stressed the skid pad as meaningful when the TL was at the top off the list...I don't believe it equates all that well to real life but it is what it is with the 4X4 coming in a close second. Finally an 18 foot disadvantage in stopping distance is also IMHO a significant number in real life.
Its not my intention, despite what some think, to beat up on the TL. I was very satisfied with mine for 50K+ miles. It’s a competent car with good value for the dollar but I did not like the styling, personal choice, & also wanted to move on to a 2 door which made my choice easy.
That being said reading SH AWD posts written with the same sense of awe as the second coming of Jim Hall’s Chaparral pegs my I wanna be in this thread meter. It’s a nice system, overcomes the torque steer issues of the FWD but does not IMHO put the TL on a different handling plane then the other cars in the thread.
It’s a lot like the vtec silliness when just about every other manufacture at this level has technology that produces the same results of optimizing torque at the bottom end & horsepower on the top end.
This is not a new plan. Some of my race cars in the 1960’s had spring loaded adjustable cam shaft drives that accomplished the same thing. Reducing overlap/duration at the bottom & adding it back in at the top. Computers do it faster, smarter, better & also manage lift but its still not something all new.
Bottom line is I don't think anyone can go wrong buying the car they personally like from among the group we are talking about in the thread.
Agree the TL is bigger by about 300lbs but it also claims 5 more whp & is a 4X4. A trap speed spread of 8mph cannot be attributed to a 300lb spread in dry weight. Street start spread which I believe you always suggest as a meaning full number is 1.1 seconds which is an 88ft foot lead & not trivial in a 5-60 run.
Using a split trap speed of 104mph at the end of the quarter its makes the distance between cars about 150ft. Math might be off but should be close enough for government work, your mileage may vary.
The guys here have always stressed the skid pad as meaningful when the TL was at the top off the list...I don't believe it equates all that well to real life but it is what it is with the 4X4 coming in a close second. Finally an 18 foot disadvantage in stopping distance is also IMHO a significant number in real life.
Its not my intention, despite what some think, to beat up on the TL. I was very satisfied with mine for 50K+ miles. It’s a competent car with good value for the dollar but I did not like the styling, personal choice, & also wanted to move on to a 2 door which made my choice easy.
That being said reading SH AWD posts written with the same sense of awe as the second coming of Jim Hall’s Chaparral pegs my I wanna be in this thread meter. It’s a nice system, overcomes the torque steer issues of the FWD but does not IMHO put the TL on a different handling plane then the other cars in the thread.
It’s a lot like the vtec silliness when just about every other manufacture at this level has technology that produces the same results of optimizing torque at the bottom end & horsepower on the top end.
This is not a new plan. Some of my race cars in the 1960’s had spring loaded adjustable cam shaft drives that accomplished the same thing. Reducing overlap/duration at the bottom & adding it back in at the top. Computers do it faster, smarter, better & also manage lift but its still not something all new.
Bottom line is I don't think anyone can go wrong buying the car they personally like from among the group we are talking about in the thread.
12-26-2011, 06:55 PM
#122
Three Wheelin'
Based on my 20+ years of owning Honda/Acura products, including motorcycles, I'll put my $$ on Honda reliability every time. Yes, everyone makes mistakes (they are, after all, designed/built by human beings), but statistically, Honda products are as reliable as anyone can expect a mass-produced product to be.
That said, I've had three Nissan products as well. Two were very reliable, one was so-so. I have no concerns about Infiniti quality, and would gladly have bought a G37 if I had not liked the TL more.
But I think anyone arguing "brand X is more reliable than Honda products" has the losing side of that argument over time.
That said, I've had three Nissan products as well. Two were very reliable, one was so-so. I have no concerns about Infiniti quality, and would gladly have bought a G37 if I had not liked the TL more.
But I think anyone arguing "brand X is more reliable than Honda products" has the losing side of that argument over time.
I can vouch for the fact that Honda as fantastic reliability. Thinking back I can only think of so few problems with them that it's almost negligible. I even road raced a couple of the motorcycles in stock class. I hate to think of how many miles I put on one of them with zero problems. It was run in sprint races twice a month and several 4, 6 and 8 hour endurance races in a season without being touched. We rebuilt it at the end of the year and the internals looked like they didn't need it at all. I finished every race I started.
12-26-2011, 07:41 PM
#123
Lets see the 2 & 4 door 3’s are just about the same weight with the 4 door up about 30/35lbs, the AT is quicker then the MT according to info provided by BMW, both cars are available with summer tires. I did not look at what they had on the cars. That being said the BMW has run flats which most people looking for performance quickly get rid of because they don’t perform as well as get flats.
Agree the TL is bigger by about 300lbs but it also claims 5 more whp & is a 4X4. A trap speed spread of 8mph cannot be attributed to a 300lb spread in dry weight. Street start spread which I believe you always suggest as a meaning full number is 1.1 seconds which is an 88ft foot lead & not trivial in a 5-60 run.
Using a split trap speed of 104mph at the end of the quarter its makes the distance between cars about 150ft. Math might be off but should be close enough for government work, your mileage may vary.
The guys here have always stressed the skid pad as meaningful when the TL was at the top off the list...I don't believe it equates all that well to real life but it is what it is with the 4X4 coming in a close second. Finally an 18 foot disadvantage in stopping distance is also IMHO a significant number in real life.
Its not my intention, despite what some think, to beat up on the TL. I was very satisfied with mine for 50K+ miles. It’s a competent car with good value for the dollar but I did not like the styling, personal choice, & also wanted to move on to a 2 door which made my choice easy.
That being said reading SH AWD posts written with the same sense of awe as the second coming of Jim Hall’s Chaparral pegs my I wanna be in this thread meter. It’s a nice system, overcomes the torque steer issues of the FWD but does not IMHO put the TL on a different handling plane then the other cars in the thread.
It’s a lot like the vtec silliness when just about every other manufacture at this level has technology that produces the same results of optimizing torque at the bottom end & horsepower on the top end.
This is not a new plan. Some of my race cars in the 1960’s had spring loaded adjustable cam shaft drives that accomplished the same thing. Reducing overlap/duration at the bottom & adding it back in at the top. Computers do it faster, smarter, better & also manage lift but its still not something all new.
Bottom line is I don't think anyone can go wrong buying the car they personally like from among the group we are talking about in the thread.
Agree the TL is bigger by about 300lbs but it also claims 5 more whp & is a 4X4. A trap speed spread of 8mph cannot be attributed to a 300lb spread in dry weight. Street start spread which I believe you always suggest as a meaning full number is 1.1 seconds which is an 88ft foot lead & not trivial in a 5-60 run.
Using a split trap speed of 104mph at the end of the quarter its makes the distance between cars about 150ft. Math might be off but should be close enough for government work, your mileage may vary.
The guys here have always stressed the skid pad as meaningful when the TL was at the top off the list...I don't believe it equates all that well to real life but it is what it is with the 4X4 coming in a close second. Finally an 18 foot disadvantage in stopping distance is also IMHO a significant number in real life.
Its not my intention, despite what some think, to beat up on the TL. I was very satisfied with mine for 50K+ miles. It’s a competent car with good value for the dollar but I did not like the styling, personal choice, & also wanted to move on to a 2 door which made my choice easy.
That being said reading SH AWD posts written with the same sense of awe as the second coming of Jim Hall’s Chaparral pegs my I wanna be in this thread meter. It’s a nice system, overcomes the torque steer issues of the FWD but does not IMHO put the TL on a different handling plane then the other cars in the thread.
It’s a lot like the vtec silliness when just about every other manufacture at this level has technology that produces the same results of optimizing torque at the bottom end & horsepower on the top end.
This is not a new plan. Some of my race cars in the 1960’s had spring loaded adjustable cam shaft drives that accomplished the same thing. Reducing overlap/duration at the bottom & adding it back in at the top. Computers do it faster, smarter, better & also manage lift but its still not something all new.
Bottom line is I don't think anyone can go wrong buying the car they personally like from among the group we are talking about in the thread.
The TL is still at the top range of the list in skidpad, slalom and braking numbers...read the C&D test of the automatic 2009 TL SH-AWD with summer rubber.....it matches the Panamera 3.6 with enormous summer tires (just a touch heavier car, similar size)....it is hard to argue with numbers...
The enthusiastic comments about the TL handling come from C&D, R&T, MT and other magazines not only from owners...
The performance numbers of the TL SH-AWD should be compared to the figures of the BMW 535 xDrive, the Audi A6 or A7 3.0 T not the 3 Series or the G...
As a matter of fact, like it or not, in size and weight these are the competitors of the TL....I find comparing the TL to a 3 Series only because of price closeness to be very misleading....maybe it was a mistake for Acura to move the TL to a bigger size class (this gave the RL the coup de grace), but this is the reality....many TL owners cross shopped the 5 Series and the A6 when they got the TL.....
It’s a nice system, overcomes the torque steer issues of the FWD but does not IMHO put the TL on a different handling plane then the other cars in the thread.
You are right, Torque Vectoring is not new anymore, however you still cannot get it in cars costing much more.....is not available in either the 5 Series, the A6 and A7 (never mind Mercedes).....only on the S4 as an option and on the RS5 (as an option too I believe).
You can get it in a Panamera, a $100K class automobile......
The only chaper car where you can get TV is the Nissan Juke I believe....
12-26-2011, 08:28 PM
#124
Burning Brakes
^^^Depending on what you go for, obviously influences the performance numbers, as you said, like it or not. The G has scored better in some of the tests from the same magazines you quoted.
SHAWD in my opinion from what I've read in the mags just about brings the TL to the performance and handling of the competitors.
As I said in a previous post these great machines are a close match and quoting the verbiage from all of the rags, doesn't do much to change that. The only exception might be the 335is, which can run rings around the others without breaking a sweat.
On the street one would be hard pressed to tell the difference, except when one is engaging in stupid and possibly illegal behavior as I said in a different post.
Thankfully the cars are different and cater to different tastes, else you would be hearing: "you can have this Ford in any color you want as long as it's black."
SHAWD in my opinion from what I've read in the mags just about brings the TL to the performance and handling of the competitors.
As I said in a previous post these great machines are a close match and quoting the verbiage from all of the rags, doesn't do much to change that. The only exception might be the 335is, which can run rings around the others without breaking a sweat.
On the street one would be hard pressed to tell the difference, except when one is engaging in stupid and possibly illegal behavior as I said in a different post.
Thankfully the cars are different and cater to different tastes, else you would be hearing: "you can have this Ford in any color you want as long as it's black."
Last edited by g37guy01; 12-26-2011 at 08:31 PM.
12-26-2011, 08:54 PM
#125
Burning Brakes
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I'm not going to debate personal choices obviously.....in your case you wanted a coupe so the TL doesn't even enter the equation.
The TL is still at the top range of the list in skidpad, slalom and braking numbers...read the C&D test of the automatic 2009 TL SH-AWD with summer rubber.....it matches the Panamera 3.6 with enormous summer tires (just a touch heavier car, similar size)....it is hard to argue with numbers...
The enthusiastic comments about the TL handling come from C&D, R&T, MT and other magazines not only from owners...
The performance numbers of the TL SH-AWD should be compared to the figures of the BMW 535 xDrive, the Audi A6 or A7 3.0 T not the 3 Series or the G...
As a matter of fact, like it or not, in size and weight these are the competitors of the TL....I find comparing the TL to a 3 Series only because of price closeness to be very misleading....maybe it was a mistake for Acura to move the TL to a bigger size class (this gave the RL the coup de grace), but this is the reality....many TL owners cross shopped the 5 Series and the A6 when they got the TL.....
When a car of that size was able to outrun on a track the smaller 335 (considered the benchmark in handling) and the S4 at the time of the introduction, I'm sorry but it did put the TL handling on a different level....probably is old story now....
You are right, Torque Vectoring is not new anymore, however you still cannot get it in cars costing much more.....is not available in either the 5 Series, the A6 and A7 (never mind Mercedes).....only on the S4 as an option and on the RS5 (as an option too I believe).
You can get it in a Panamera, a $100K class automobile......
The only chaper car where you can get TV is the Nissan Juke I believe....
The TL is still at the top range of the list in skidpad, slalom and braking numbers...read the C&D test of the automatic 2009 TL SH-AWD with summer rubber.....it matches the Panamera 3.6 with enormous summer tires (just a touch heavier car, similar size)....it is hard to argue with numbers...
The enthusiastic comments about the TL handling come from C&D, R&T, MT and other magazines not only from owners...
The performance numbers of the TL SH-AWD should be compared to the figures of the BMW 535 xDrive, the Audi A6 or A7 3.0 T not the 3 Series or the G...
As a matter of fact, like it or not, in size and weight these are the competitors of the TL....I find comparing the TL to a 3 Series only because of price closeness to be very misleading....maybe it was a mistake for Acura to move the TL to a bigger size class (this gave the RL the coup de grace), but this is the reality....many TL owners cross shopped the 5 Series and the A6 when they got the TL.....
When a car of that size was able to outrun on a track the smaller 335 (considered the benchmark in handling) and the S4 at the time of the introduction, I'm sorry but it did put the TL handling on a different level....probably is old story now....
You are right, Torque Vectoring is not new anymore, however you still cannot get it in cars costing much more.....is not available in either the 5 Series, the A6 and A7 (never mind Mercedes).....only on the S4 as an option and on the RS5 (as an option too I believe).
You can get it in a Panamera, a $100K class automobile......
The only chaper car where you can get TV is the Nissan Juke I believe....
I completely agree
12-26-2011, 10:02 PM
#126
Instructor
Thread Starter
Damn this topic got carried over lol
Acura brand is still the best Japan car and most reliable
When u find a any other Japan car that holds value like acura brand then u can say something about acura
I was in Curry Acura and they had on show room floor 1992 NSX with 20k milage for $40k
I see more lambos and ferrari then i see NSX on road.
Acura brand is still the best Japan car and most reliable
When u find a any other Japan car that holds value like acura brand then u can say something about acura
I was in Curry Acura and they had on show room floor 1992 NSX with 20k milage for $40k
I see more lambos and ferrari then i see NSX on road.
12-27-2011, 01:17 AM
#127
SHAWD in my opinion from what I've read in the mags just about brings the TL to the performance and handling of the competitors.
If you read carefully, handling is the undisputed winning point of the TL...even magazines that did bash the look of the car had to admit it that the car grip is phenomenal....I would say it best the competition, especially if as competitor you take the 5 Series or A6, a closer match to the TL size and weight.
As I said in a previous post these great machines are a close match and quoting the verbiage from all of the rags, doesn't do much to change that.
The only exception might be the 335is, which can run rings around the others without breaking a sweat.
Thankfully the cars are different and cater to different tastes, else you would be hearing: "you can have this Ford in any color you want as long as it's black."
Last edited by saturno_v; 12-27-2011 at 01:20 AM.
12-27-2011, 05:43 AM
#128
Instructor
The only performance number where the G scored better than the TL SH-AWD, as far as I know, is straight line acceleration if you take both cars with slushboxes......given the power advantage of the G, the less weight and the more gears (7 vs. 5 or 6 with the 2012 TL) is a given.......the manual TL is much closer to the manual G.
If you read carefully, handling is the undisputed winning point of the TL...even magazines that did bash the look of the car had to admit it that the car grip is phenomenal....I would say it best the competition, especially if as competitor you take the 5 Series or A6, a closer match to the TL size and weight.
I agree, a minuscole percentage of these cars's user are going to be able to test the limits of these vehicles.....magazine tests make a good beer and hot dog conversation....
Actually, the only direct test comparison that I know between the 335 and the TL SH-AWD (manual) on a track, has seen the TL going faster.....event sponsored from Acura or not, more than one magazine (for example C&D and Edmunds) tester confirmed that and it is the only direct comparo done to this day, again, as far as I know, so "running rings around the others" I do not think it does apply....another test (MT or R&T) saw the G37 Coupe going faster on a track than a 335 coupe....we should stop putting the 3 Series on a pedestal...it is an excellent small sport sedan but is not perfect....I would get a G over a 3 Series any time of the day.
Absolutely agree...that is the beauty of the automotive market.....
If you read carefully, handling is the undisputed winning point of the TL...even magazines that did bash the look of the car had to admit it that the car grip is phenomenal....I would say it best the competition, especially if as competitor you take the 5 Series or A6, a closer match to the TL size and weight.
I agree, a minuscole percentage of these cars's user are going to be able to test the limits of these vehicles.....magazine tests make a good beer and hot dog conversation....
Actually, the only direct test comparison that I know between the 335 and the TL SH-AWD (manual) on a track, has seen the TL going faster.....event sponsored from Acura or not, more than one magazine (for example C&D and Edmunds) tester confirmed that and it is the only direct comparo done to this day, again, as far as I know, so "running rings around the others" I do not think it does apply....another test (MT or R&T) saw the G37 Coupe going faster on a track than a 335 coupe....we should stop putting the 3 Series on a pedestal...it is an excellent small sport sedan but is not perfect....I would get a G over a 3 Series any time of the day.
Absolutely agree...that is the beauty of the automotive market.....
But the 335 g37guy01 is pointing out is the 335is and not the 335i. The difference between these 2 different models is the 335is is rated at 320hp, RWD, and has a real sport suspension. That is 20+ more HP then the stock 335i. Just an FYI.
12-27-2011, 08:02 AM
#129
Three Wheelin'
People who define the best handling car by how much lateral G's it pulls are missing a big piece of what makes a car a great handling car. Even slalom times are not totally indicative of the best handling car, although they tell more than a skidpad does.
Handling comprises a number of traits, some of which are subjective, some objective. As much as forums like to bash magazines, the truth is that they have a lot of experience testing vehicles, and they frequently test them at race tracks were they are able to explore what happens when a car does approach, and reach it's limits.
Handling comprises a number of traits, some of which are subjective, some objective. As much as forums like to bash magazines, the truth is that they have a lot of experience testing vehicles, and they frequently test them at race tracks were they are able to explore what happens when a car does approach, and reach it's limits.
12-27-2011, 09:20 AM
#130
Burning Brakes
The only performance number where the G scored better than the TL SH-AWD, as far as I know, is straight line acceleration if you take both cars with slushboxes......given the power advantage of the G, the less weight and the more gears (7 vs. 5 or 6 with the 2012 TL) is a given.......the manual TL is much closer to the manual G.
If you read carefully, handling is the undisputed winning point of the TL...even magazines that did bash the look of the car had to admit it that the car grip is phenomenal....I would say it best the competition, especially if as competitor you take the 5 Series or A6, a closer match to the TL size and weight.
I agree, a minuscole percentage of these cars's user are going to be able to test the limits of these vehicles.....magazine tests make a good beer and hot dog conversation....
Actually, the only direct test comparison that I know between the 335 and the TL SH-AWD (manual) on a track, has seen the TL going faster.....event sponsored from Acura or not, more than one magazine (for example C&D and Edmunds) tester confirmed that and it is the only direct comparo done to this day, again, as far as I know, so "running rings around the others" I do not think it does apply....another test (MT or R&T) saw the G37 Coupe going faster on a track than a 335 coupe....we should stop putting the 3 Series on a pedestal...it is an excellent small sport sedan but is not perfect....I would get a G over a 3 Series any time of the day.
Absolutely agree...that is the beauty of the automotive market.....
If you read carefully, handling is the undisputed winning point of the TL...even magazines that did bash the look of the car had to admit it that the car grip is phenomenal....I would say it best the competition, especially if as competitor you take the 5 Series or A6, a closer match to the TL size and weight.
I agree, a minuscole percentage of these cars's user are going to be able to test the limits of these vehicles.....magazine tests make a good beer and hot dog conversation....
Actually, the only direct test comparison that I know between the 335 and the TL SH-AWD (manual) on a track, has seen the TL going faster.....event sponsored from Acura or not, more than one magazine (for example C&D and Edmunds) tester confirmed that and it is the only direct comparo done to this day, again, as far as I know, so "running rings around the others" I do not think it does apply....another test (MT or R&T) saw the G37 Coupe going faster on a track than a 335 coupe....we should stop putting the 3 Series on a pedestal...it is an excellent small sport sedan but is not perfect....I would get a G over a 3 Series any time of the day.
Absolutely agree...that is the beauty of the automotive market.....
- 335 vs TL A sample size of one doesn't exactly tell the story, especially when the event was sponsored by the sponsor. Not really independent, but to each their own as to what they think about the veracity of the "comparo". Comparing a 2010 tl with a 2008 335. That's b/s. Let's do a 2012 to 2012.
- Handling is the sum total of the way the car interacts with the road, curves, straights, emergency manuevers etc.. In my opinion the G is better overall in that regard based on what I've read in the mags.
12-27-2011, 09:52 AM
#131
Mademoiselle Chanel!!
Some folks like their BMW's the greater number of us like Acura's that's why it's called Acurazine, not Bimmerzine or Infinizine. Believe half of what you read and none of what you hear without looking into it yourself.
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12-27-2011, 10:09 AM
#132
Suzuka Master
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I know there are some here that don't like dynos but there are a few hundred results posted on the various BMW forms & they are pretty consistent. + or - 10HP depending on 91 or 93 gas which is a big deal to a turbo. A good repeatable number for a stock 335i on 93 octane is 276whp. 91 comes in around 266whp.
When Burger Motorsports in CA estimated what my car would post stock they were within 4whp of what it ran on the same make dyno in NC making 314whp or + 38whp over a 335i.
Once the JB4 was added on the WHP jumped up to 365, not bad for a $500. investment.
There was some talk in the other thread about published BHP numbers & I basically said they are BS. Some disagreed. Thing is the 335i is rated at 300 BHP but only does 276whp on a dyno giving a spread of 24hp. My car is rated at 320bhp but does 314whp on the dyno or a 6hp spread. There is no way it is that much more efficient compared to the base motor.
Its also interesting to note especially the same M54 motor in other cars like the Zis sport car are rated higher (335bhp) & the 1M (332bhp) in BMW’s advertisements.
Also using a standard 15% loss factor which fits the 335i’s 91 octane performance results you get in 304 at the crank HP which is close to the 300bhp BMW advertises.
The same 15% would suggest the 335is is producing 361 crank HP. Not unrealistic for a car that can run 13.1/109 out of the box with a good launch.
Where the rubber meets the road in stock form I have only has one shot at a SH AWD. He called the start & it was over in about 2.5 seconds, before I made my first shift, I was clear & pulling away.
I know the TL starts in second gear but so do I because of traction issues with the run flats. So it was AT vs. AT even start. Will be adding non runflats in the spring since all summer tires suck in the winter.
With the JB4 I have had 5 runs with two different M3 V8’s & pulled away from both of them. Using the infamous dyno on both cars & a 15% factor I have about 15 more WHP & 100ft lbs more torque. I was able to hang on running at a pretty good clip on the on-ramp but it was pretty obvious that had the M3 pushed I would have had to back off.
There is a lot of lets change the game by looking at old results to prove a point. I took the most current as represented of what someone going into the store & can drive home with today. The new 3 corners better then the old one, the suspension & software have been upgraded & it will out perform one from a few years ago.
I am sure the TL has also had tweaks over the years. If the TL does not have summer tires it does not have summer tires, by the same token the 3 had to get by with run flats so you are kind of stuck one way or another with what the manufacturer puts on the car unless you want to spend a $1000 or so for new tires.
Same with the “Lets do a 6MT vs. 6MT”. Why? Getting a 6MT from Acura is almost next to impossible & limits a lot of other choices in the car. That being said why not run a 6AT 3 against a TL 6MT since the auto is the better transmission for performance in the BMW. Again it all comes down to what most people can drive off the lot.
The “lets look at the 5 series” is an other old saw that does not apply. Sure the TL is bigger & 300lbs heavier but so is a Chevy, Chrysler or Buick. I think the rollout of Acura's new marketing direction will lay to rest what it really competes against.
The 3 is sized to its market niche which bitches like wet cats when the 3 is bulked up. Most believe it takes away from the Sport Sedan feel & really could care less about the back seat room because they don’t sit there. It would be interesting to see how many 3 series owners have another car for hauling crowds of people. I have an 7 passenger Expedition EP to do the vacation runs.
The 5 is more laid back for more conservative people that like a nice sporty car but are not looking to flog it. If some wants a 5 to go fast they can get an M5. As for it being too expensive, a car is worth what some one is willing to pay for it & BMW does not seem to have any shortage of sales even in the current economy.
The bottom line is I do not believe many of the buying public outside this forum this sees the TL as a competitor to the 5 series & I don’t think Hondas management believes that either any longer if they ever did.
This post is long so I will not post the dyno sheets unless somebody wants to see them.
Something I would really love to see is a dyno for the 305 TL. Its been out long enough for a midcycle makeover but I have yet to see a stock dyno run.
12-27-2011, 11:44 AM
#133
Burning Brakes
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Agree its an apples & oranges thing.
I know there are some here that don't like dynos but there are a few hundred results posted on the various BMW forms & they are pretty consistent. + or - 10HP depending on 91 or 93 gas which is a big deal to a turbo. A good repeatable number for a stock 335i on 93 octane is 276whp. 91 comes in around 266whp.
When Burger Motorsports in CA estimated what my car would post stock they were within 4whp of what it ran on the same make dyno in NC making 314whp or + 38whp over a 335i.
Once the JB4 was added on the WHP jumped up to 365, not bad for a $500. investment.
There was some talk in the other thread about published BHP numbers & I basically said they are BS. Some disagreed. Thing is the 335i is rated at 300 BHP but only does 276whp on a dyno giving a spread of 24hp. My car is rated at 320bhp but does 314whp on the dyno or a 6hp spread. There is no way it is that much more efficient compared to the base motor.
Its also interesting to note especially the same M54 motor in other cars like the Zis sport car are rated higher (335bhp) & the 1M (332bhp) in BMW’s advertisements.
Also using a standard 15% loss factor which fits the 335i’s 91 octane performance results you get in 304 at the crank HP which is close to the 300bhp BMW advertises.
The same 15% would suggest the 335is is producing 361 crank HP. Not unrealistic for a car that can run 13.1/109 out of the box with a good launch.
Where the rubber meets the road in stock form I have only has one shot at a SH AWD. He called the start & it was over in about 2.5 seconds, before I made my first shift, I was clear & pulling away.
I know the TL starts in second gear but so do I because of traction issues with the run flats. So it was AT vs. AT even start. Will be adding non runflats in the spring since all summer tires suck in the winter.
With the JB4 I have had 5 runs with two different M3 V8’s & pulled away from both of them. Using the infamous dyno on both cars & a 15% factor I have about 15 more WHP & 100ft lbs more torque. I was able to hang on running at a pretty good clip on the on-ramp but it was pretty obvious that had the M3 pushed I would have had to back off.
There is a lot of lets change the game by looking at old results to prove a point. I took the most current as represented of what someone going into the store & can drive home with today. The new 3 corners better then the old one, the suspension & software have been upgraded & it will out perform one from a few years ago.
I am sure the TL has also had tweaks over the years. If the TL does not have summer tires it does not have summer tires, by the same token the 3 had to get by with run flats so you are kind of stuck one way or another with what the manufacturer puts on the car unless you want to spend a $1000 or so for new tires.
Same with the “Lets do a 6MT vs. 6MT”. Why? Getting a 6MT from Acura is almost next to impossible & limits a lot of other choices in the car. That being said why not run a 6AT 3 against a TL 6MT since the auto is the better transmission for performance in the BMW. Again it all comes down to what most people can drive off the lot.
The “lets look at the 5 series” is an other old saw that does not apply. Sure the TL is bigger & 300lbs heavier but so is a Chevy, Chrysler or Buick. I think the rollout of Acura's new marketing direction will lay to rest what it really competes against.
The 3 is sized to its market niche which bitches like wet cats when the 3 is bulked up. Most believe it takes away from the Sport Sedan feel & really could care less about the back seat room because they don’t sit there. It would be interesting to see how many 3 series owners have another car for hauling crowds of people. I have an 7 passenger Expedition EP to do the vacation runs.
The 5 is more laid back for more conservative people that like a nice sporty car but are not looking to flog it. If some wants a 5 to go fast they can get an M5. As for it being too expensive, a car is worth what some one is willing to pay for it & BMW does not seem to have any shortage of sales even in the current economy.
The bottom line is I do not believe many of the buying public outside this forum this sees the TL as a competitor to the 5 series & I don’t think Hondas management believes that either any longer if they ever did.
This post is long so I will not post the dyno sheets unless somebody wants to see them.
Something I would really love to see is a dyno for the 305 TL. Its been out long enough for a midcycle makeover but I have yet to see a stock dyno run.
I know there are some here that don't like dynos but there are a few hundred results posted on the various BMW forms & they are pretty consistent. + or - 10HP depending on 91 or 93 gas which is a big deal to a turbo. A good repeatable number for a stock 335i on 93 octane is 276whp. 91 comes in around 266whp.
When Burger Motorsports in CA estimated what my car would post stock they were within 4whp of what it ran on the same make dyno in NC making 314whp or + 38whp over a 335i.
Once the JB4 was added on the WHP jumped up to 365, not bad for a $500. investment.
There was some talk in the other thread about published BHP numbers & I basically said they are BS. Some disagreed. Thing is the 335i is rated at 300 BHP but only does 276whp on a dyno giving a spread of 24hp. My car is rated at 320bhp but does 314whp on the dyno or a 6hp spread. There is no way it is that much more efficient compared to the base motor.
Its also interesting to note especially the same M54 motor in other cars like the Zis sport car are rated higher (335bhp) & the 1M (332bhp) in BMW’s advertisements.
Also using a standard 15% loss factor which fits the 335i’s 91 octane performance results you get in 304 at the crank HP which is close to the 300bhp BMW advertises.
The same 15% would suggest the 335is is producing 361 crank HP. Not unrealistic for a car that can run 13.1/109 out of the box with a good launch.
Where the rubber meets the road in stock form I have only has one shot at a SH AWD. He called the start & it was over in about 2.5 seconds, before I made my first shift, I was clear & pulling away.
I know the TL starts in second gear but so do I because of traction issues with the run flats. So it was AT vs. AT even start. Will be adding non runflats in the spring since all summer tires suck in the winter.
With the JB4 I have had 5 runs with two different M3 V8’s & pulled away from both of them. Using the infamous dyno on both cars & a 15% factor I have about 15 more WHP & 100ft lbs more torque. I was able to hang on running at a pretty good clip on the on-ramp but it was pretty obvious that had the M3 pushed I would have had to back off.
There is a lot of lets change the game by looking at old results to prove a point. I took the most current as represented of what someone going into the store & can drive home with today. The new 3 corners better then the old one, the suspension & software have been upgraded & it will out perform one from a few years ago.
I am sure the TL has also had tweaks over the years. If the TL does not have summer tires it does not have summer tires, by the same token the 3 had to get by with run flats so you are kind of stuck one way or another with what the manufacturer puts on the car unless you want to spend a $1000 or so for new tires.
Same with the “Lets do a 6MT vs. 6MT”. Why? Getting a 6MT from Acura is almost next to impossible & limits a lot of other choices in the car. That being said why not run a 6AT 3 against a TL 6MT since the auto is the better transmission for performance in the BMW. Again it all comes down to what most people can drive off the lot.
The “lets look at the 5 series” is an other old saw that does not apply. Sure the TL is bigger & 300lbs heavier but so is a Chevy, Chrysler or Buick. I think the rollout of Acura's new marketing direction will lay to rest what it really competes against.
The 3 is sized to its market niche which bitches like wet cats when the 3 is bulked up. Most believe it takes away from the Sport Sedan feel & really could care less about the back seat room because they don’t sit there. It would be interesting to see how many 3 series owners have another car for hauling crowds of people. I have an 7 passenger Expedition EP to do the vacation runs.
The 5 is more laid back for more conservative people that like a nice sporty car but are not looking to flog it. If some wants a 5 to go fast they can get an M5. As for it being too expensive, a car is worth what some one is willing to pay for it & BMW does not seem to have any shortage of sales even in the current economy.
The bottom line is I do not believe many of the buying public outside this forum this sees the TL as a competitor to the 5 series & I don’t think Hondas management believes that either any longer if they ever did.
This post is long so I will not post the dyno sheets unless somebody wants to see them.
Something I would really love to see is a dyno for the 305 TL. Its been out long enough for a midcycle makeover but I have yet to see a stock dyno run.
Obviously this is just one person's experience, but I think the problem is Honda/Acura marketing, which is almost non-existent. I ended up at the Acura dealership because I was at my wit's end trying to find the new perfect ride, and it was last on the list because I forgot they existed.
I'll be the first to admit the TL's exterior needs some work, but with a few mods it can look as sleek or more than the competition.
12-27-2011, 12:19 PM
#134
People who define the best handling car by how much lateral G's it pulls are missing a big piece of what makes a car a great handling car. Even slalom times are not totally indicative of the best handling car, although they tell more than a skidpad does.
Handling comprises a number of traits, some of which are subjective, some objective. As much as forums like to bash magazines, the truth is that they have a lot of experience testing vehicles, and they frequently test them at race tracks were they are able to explore what happens when a car does approach, and reach it's limits.
Handling comprises a number of traits, some of which are subjective, some objective. As much as forums like to bash magazines, the truth is that they have a lot of experience testing vehicles, and they frequently test them at race tracks were they are able to explore what happens when a car does approach, and reach it's limits.
"It doesn’t feel as natural as the balance of the BMW, but there’s a lot of thrill in knowing you’re going faster. "
12-27-2011, 12:37 PM
#135
The “lets look at the 5 series” is an other old saw that does not apply. Sure the TL is bigger & 300lbs heavier but so is a Chevy, Chrysler or Buick. I think the rollout of Acura's new marketing direction will lay to rest what it really competes against.
The 3 is sized to its market niche which bitches like wet cats when the 3 is bulked up. Most believe it takes away from the Sport Sedan feel & really could care less about the back seat room because they don’t sit there. It would be interesting to see how many 3 series owners have another car for hauling crowds of people. I have an 7 passenger Expedition EP to do the vacation runs.
The 5 is more laid back for more conservative people that like a nice sporty car but are not looking to flog it. If some wants a 5 to go fast they can get an M5. As for it being too expensive, a car is worth what some one is willing to pay for it & BMW does not seem to have any shortage of sales even in the current economy.
The bottom line is I do not believe many of the buying public outside this forum this sees the TL as a competitor to the 5 series & I don’t think Hondas management believes that either any longer if they ever did.
From a 2010 Acura press release about the TL:
LUXURY MARKET STATUS
The 2010 TL enters the competitive luxury market at an ideal time as the segment in which it competes is expected to remain strong into the next decade. Available with the largest and most powerful engine in TL history, along with the sport-driving focused SH-AWD® system (the world's first torque-vectoring AWD system when introduced in 2000), the 2010 TL competes with vehicles such as the Audi A4 and A6, BMW 3-Series and 5-Series, Infiniti G35 and M35, Lexus ES, GS and IS sedans, and the Mercedes-Benz C-Class and E-Class.
Link here: http://www.hondanews.com/channels/ac...ra-tl-overview
I do not think it gets more clearer than that from Acura....it competes with the entry and mid level 5 Series....obviosuly we are not talking about 550i or M5.
When you say not many of the buying public outside this forum do not consider the 5 Series a competitor you seem to forget that people on the 4G forum are owners of the TL and as far as I can recall most of all 4G driver here have considered the 5 Series in their purchase process...now if you do not believe it from people that actually bought the car who you believe to??
When I got mine, I noticed a couple of E60 5 Series in the used parking lot.
Granted there are BMW buyers that will never consider a TL or anything other than a BMW for that matter but that is a different story, it has nothing to do with the fact that the TL and the 5 Series can compete or not.
Remember BMW more than selling leases a lot (Acura is the other way around, it sells more than do leasing).....and even the relatively wealthy area where I live (Seattle, and some neighbourhoods are very wealthy) the vast majority of the 3 and 5 I see on the road are the 328 and 528, many without even an integrated navigator...in few words, stripper or almost stripper cars.
Last edited by saturno_v; 12-27-2011 at 12:42 PM.
12-27-2011, 12:39 PM
#136
Burning Brakes
I agree with your point, but I think the TL AWD should be compared to the Audi A6, and 5 series with comparable specs. October - I had my mind set on the A6, test drove, wasn't impressed. Father-in-law is a huge BMW fan (owns 335D, M5, and 535) so tried a 335 (way too small for my body) and a 535 xdrive, also too small, and not impressed at all with road handling. Enter the TL, I was sold. Fast forward - Thanksgiving. Father-in-law drives TL. Blown away at handling and performance and now considering one for his every day driver over his 535.
Obviously this is just one person's experience, but I think the problem is Honda/Acura marketing, which is almost non-existent. I ended up at the Acura dealership because I was at my wit's end trying to find the new perfect ride, and it was last on the list because I forgot they existed.
I'll be the first to admit the TL's exterior needs some work, but with a few mods it can look as sleek or more than the competition.
Obviously this is just one person's experience, but I think the problem is Honda/Acura marketing, which is almost non-existent. I ended up at the Acura dealership because I was at my wit's end trying to find the new perfect ride, and it was last on the list because I forgot they existed.
I'll be the first to admit the TL's exterior needs some work, but with a few mods it can look as sleek or more than the competition.
The issue isn't the marketing the issue are the comparos, which is what I've been saying. Unless you are an acurazine member and seem to quote only the one comparo that came out the other way, a lot of reviewers find something dissatisfying in the ride of the TL where it get's ranked below the 335 and G.
12-27-2011, 12:47 PM
#137
We keep mention that comparo because it was the only one conducted that pitted on a track a 335 with a TL SH-AWD....then there was the comparo on the track with the more powerful and lighter S4 where the TL was basically even.....only two test but with surprising results....post some link were reviewers were not satisfied with the TL ride......personally I find the standard 3 Series ride (standard rubber and suspension) unbearably harsh not to mention the ridiculous seats.
Last edited by saturno_v; 12-27-2011 at 12:55 PM.
12-27-2011, 12:52 PM
#138
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From a 2010 Acura press release about the TL:
LUXURY MARKET STATUS
The 2010 TL enters the competitive luxury market at an ideal time as the segment in which it competes is expected to remain strong into the next decade. Available with the largest and most powerful engine in TL history, along with the sport-driving focused SH-AWD® system (the world's first torque-vectoring AWD system when introduced in 2000), the 2010 TL competes with vehicles such as the Audi A4 and A6, BMW 3-Series and 5-Series, Infiniti G35 and M35, Lexus ES, GS and IS sedans, and the Mercedes-Benz C-Class and E-Class.
IIRC the streets of willow on the abbreviated course had 4 cars in it & you could drop a handkerchief over the results. The suggests on the full course the low powered TL would gets its clock cleaned. You can look it up if you like.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 12-27-2011 at 12:57 PM.
12-27-2011, 12:54 PM
#139
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Yes, it is one persons experience, just like my coworker who can't wait to dump his TL SHAWD for various reasons, including wanting a better snow vehicle.
The issue isn't the marketing the issue are the comparos, which is what I've been saying. Unless you are an acurazine member and seem to quote only the one comparo that came out the other way, a lot of reviewers find something dissatisfying in the ride of the TL where it get's ranked below the 335 and G.
The issue isn't the marketing the issue are the comparos, which is what I've been saying. Unless you are an acurazine member and seem to quote only the one comparo that came out the other way, a lot of reviewers find something dissatisfying in the ride of the TL where it get's ranked below the 335 and G.
I also enjoy mixing it up on these threads to see how others look at the world of cars. One thing that makes no sense in these threads is when a poster makes a statement like Brand X Sucks. I believe just about anything built today is better then what was built 10/15 years ago.
I know that a lot of “family” cars today would hose some of the Muscle cars I drove in the 1960’s. It also makes for an interesting thread when someone tries to cherry pick data from a 5 or 6 year old test as relevant today.
Interesting aside for those who like cars. Just got conformation that I will have an opportunity to drive un-chaperoned a NASCAR stocker with a 165mph nanny at Charlotte Motor speedway this spring.
The cars are detuned to 600hp & the Instructor will be on the headset to yell if I screw up. Will be on the track with 6 or so other guys, passing allowed, to make it a little competitive
12-27-2011, 01:14 PM
#140
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Cherry picking from the past...these are C&D data sheets from a 2009 4 car test. Agree or disagree with the magazines choice of finishing order BMW 328 , Infiniti G37S, Audi A4 2.0T & Acura SH AWD the handling portions of the data sheets are pretty interesting.
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2009-bmw-328i.pdf
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...l-sh-awd-2.pdf
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2009-bmw-328i.pdf
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...l-sh-awd-2.pdf
12-27-2011, 01:15 PM
#141
That was 2010 this is now. You might want to look at what they are saying end of year 2011 about thier marketing plans for the future, belive its posted here somplace. I don't think the whole 5 series competitor thing worked out for them against the 5 series buyer.
IIRC the streets of willow on the abbreviated course had 4 cars in it & you could drop a handkerchief over the results. The suggests on the full course the low powered TL would gets its clock cleaned. You can look it up if you like.
IIRC the streets of willow on the abbreviated course had 4 cars in it & you could drop a handkerchief over the results. The suggests on the full course the low powered TL would gets its clock cleaned. You can look it up if you like.
LUXURY MARKET STATUS
The newly refined 2012 TL enters the competitive luxury market at an ideal time as the segment in which it competes is expected to remain strong into the next decade. Available with the largest and most powerful engine in TL history, along with the sport-driving focused SH-AWD® system (the world's first torque-vectoring AWD system when introduced in 2000), the 2012 TL competes with vehicles such as the Audi A4 and A6, BMW 3-Series and 5-Series, Infiniti G37 and M37, Lexus ES, GS and IS sedans, and the Mercedes-Benz C-Class and E-Class.
Link: http://www.hondanews.com/channels/ac...ra-tl-overview
Nothing has changed, that is still their target.....
You should qualify "has not worked out for them"
They take the platform of a generalist non premium car, the Accord, chassis, engines and suspension, they tweak it, add the SH-AWD, some luxury features and better appointments and make it a very capable luxury sport sedan without the expense od a dedicated platform and manage to sell, as of March 2011, before the tsunami hit, 3995 of them vs, 4491 BMW 5 Series (which has many more choices, 3 engines and AWD available in all of them) a dedicated and costly platform...notice how the A6 is not even in the game....
Not too shabby if you ask me (note how the chart group them together, Midsize Luxury Cars)...Acura is one of the most profitable luxury brands........however I'm the first to admit that their model range need serious work if they want to stay in the game.....I'm not a brand loyalist, I buy what I think is the best for me at the moment of the purchase, and for my want and needs the TL was that car (my first Acura by the way)....
Last edited by saturno_v; 12-27-2011 at 01:24 PM.
12-27-2011, 01:19 PM
#142
Cherry picking from the past...these are C&D data sheets from a 2009 4 car test. Agree or disagree with the magazines choice of finishing order BMW 328 , Infiniti G37S, Audi A4 2.0T & Acura SH AWD the handling portions of the data sheets are pretty interesting.
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2009-bmw-328i.pdf
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...l-sh-awd-2.pdf
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2009-bmw-328i.pdf
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...l-sh-awd-2.pdf
I'm well aware of that test where the TL did finish last because C&D made a 180 degree and decided that the TL suddenly become ugly versus what they said in their earlier first drive impression
What tires the 328 was coming equipped with?? And the TL??? I would expect such a smaller car to me more agile anyway....
I don't cherry pick....I post link that support my argument and I never said that the 3 Series is a bad car.....but a lot of forum members think that the TL is one of the worst piece of crap on the road...on an Acura site!!!
Last edited by saturno_v; 12-27-2011 at 01:21 PM.
12-27-2011, 01:31 PM
#143
2010 year end Midsize Luxury car sales....
#4 among the first 17 contestants.....I would say it worked out quite well....again, considering that the TL is not based on a dedicated premium platform...
#4 among the first 17 contestants.....I would say it worked out quite well....again, considering that the TL is not based on a dedicated premium platform...
12-27-2011, 01:35 PM
#144
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By: Mark Rechtin, Automotive News on 12/12/2011
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Honda will overhaul and reposition its Acura lineup over the next 18 months and abandon its long pursuit of top-tier luxury-car status for the brand.
After years of trying to propel Acura into the front ranks with Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Lexus, Honda says it will settle for offering mid-level premium vehicles that favor fuel economy over performance.
With one exception: At the Detroit auto show in January, Honda will bring back the Ferrari-fighting Acura NSX--a new version of the mid-engine supercar that disappeared in 2005 after a 15-year run. But instead of a monster engine, the NSX will have a compact, direct-injection V6 teamed with a lithium ion battery pack.
Another key to recalibrating Acura is the rollout of three new or redesigned sedans in the next 18 months, including a smaller compact and a bigger flagship.
"We are not satisfied with Acura's current positioning," Honda Motor Co. CEO Takanobu Ito said this month at the Tokyo Motor Show. "We want to showcase interesting and fun technologies and show excellent environmental performance."
In the works for Acura:
-- The ILX compact sedan will arrive in spring, using Honda's global Civic platform. It replaces the tired TSX that used the bones of the European Accord.
-- A redesigned RL flagship that is larger than the current version is due next fall.
-- A redesigned mid-sized TL sedan follows in the spring of 2013.
"Our sedans haven't been doing the job for the brand," said Vicki Poponi, American Honda assistant vice president for product planning, at a briefing here for dealers and the media.
Poponi said the TSX, TL and RL were cannibalizing sales because they were too close in footprint and interior size. The new models will create a bigger spread in the lineup.
Changes in the crossover categories also are coming, with a redesigned RDX compact arriving next spring and the next MDX in 2013.
Civic clone?
In using the Civic as the basis for the ILX, Acura is traveling the same platform-sharing course it did with its Integra and RSX coupes in the 1980s and 1990s. But Poponi said the ILX will bear no resemblance to the Civic or the Canadian-market Acura CSX, which has been derided as a rebadged Civic.
"All the suspension settings will be tuned to be Acura," Poponi said. "Consider it as different as the TL is from the Accord or the MDX is from the Pilot."
The ILX will be available with a choice of a 2.0-liter direct-injection four-cylinder engine with automatic transmission, a 2.4-liter engine with a six-speed manual transmission or a 1.5-liter hybrid powertrain. Features will include push-button start, rearview camera, Pandora link and SMS with text-to-voice capability.
Acura hopes that sales of the ILX, to be priced "well below $30,000," will be about 40,000 units annually. The current-generation TSX peaked at 31,998 sales in 2008.
Next up is the flagship RL, which has had little success competing in the $50,000 sedan segment against the likes of the Mercedes-Benz E class, BMW 5 series and Lexus GS. Critics have called it overweight and underpowered, and the interior is cramped.
Poponi said the redesigned version will have more cabin space, with rear legroom going from worst-in-class to the best-in-class.
"It will have [BMW] 7 series cabin space with the agility of a 5 series," Poponi said. "Our sedans need to instill passion and emotion. The new flagship establishes that, and sets the ceiling for premium pricing. Once we have set that, then our SUVs can come into the market and leverage that prestige."
The RL will debut in April at the New York auto show and go on sale next fall.
As for the RDX, the previous generation has been criticized for the jerkiness of its turbocharged four-cylinder engine. The new RDX will have a V6 with "top-class fuel economy," Poponi said.
The RDX also will use the Honda CR-V's simpler electric power steering and all-wheel-drive systems, rather than the pricier Super Handling All-Wheel Drive system of the old RDX. Poponi says it will be "quieter, roomier and more comfortable."
Then there is the NSX that arrives in concept form next month in Detroit. The original V6-powered NSX was decked out with astonishing technology when it debuted in 1990. It was the first car without turbos to deliver 100 hp per liter of engine displacement. It also was the first major project for body engineer Takanobu Ito, now Honda's CEO.
Ito killed a previous NSX concept after the autumn 2008 Lehman Brothers meltdown destroyed Honda's desire to re-enter the segment. The project has been revived, but Ito has changed the concept.
"Our approach is efficiency and a strong power-to-weight ratio," said Acura sales boss Jeff Conrad. "The original NSX did this. But the proposed successor went into the classic world of a heavy vehicle, requiring a V10 engine and other technologies to be a performance car."
Conrad adds: "That is not Acura DNA. If we are thinking about being sporty, we need to do it with the machine's efficiency. That's the thing we can do. The way we achieve it will be unique to Acura."
In addition to the NSX's compact V6, the lithium ion battery-powered Sport Hybrid All-Wheel Drive system uses two integrated drive units at the rear wheels connected to a motor-generator that delivers power.
Regenerative brakes will capture electricity and deliver torque to the outside wheel--while absorbing negative torque from the inside wheel--as the car goes through a corner.
American Honda President Tetsuo Iwamura did not set a date for the NSX's launch, saying: "We hope within three years. ... As soon as possible."
Too much machine
Despite the NSX's go-fast ambitions, a major part of Acura's new philosophy will be dialing back on performance in exchange for fuel economy. Executives say that today's luxury cars have more power than they need, and that premium-vehicle buyers now care more about mpg than mph.
Conrad said Acura has returned to its original philosophy of elegant engineering and top-of-class fuel economy, and has stopped chasing the elite of the luxury segment. The new slogan: "Smart luxury."
Mike Accavitti, the former head of Dodge who became American Honda's vice president of marketing in August, describes the current luxury market as "too much machine and not enough humanity."
Said Accavitti: "Our overweight bodies require overweight engines and more safety systems to protect them. Some of these cars the average driver just can't control. We have been increasing performance beyond the ability of the driver, or we have complicated the driving process."
Poponi said of Acura's previous batch of products: "Our engineering ego was getting in the way."
Peaks and valleys
American Honda hopes this philosophy can stabilize Acura's sales, which have peaked twice--once in the early 1990s and again in setting a brand record in 2005, at 209,610 units. But each time things fell apart because of ill-conceived products and faulty marketing--not to mention the recent recession. This year, sales through November were down 7 percent to 110,170. Honda says short supplies caused by the March earthquake in Japan were a factor.
For a new crop of customers, Honda is looking at Generation Y. The leading edge of that generation is turning 30, and Honda says the generation's top priorities are exterior styling, price and environmental friendliness.
"A good sound system" finished fifth in its research, and less than 20 percent care about high performance, Honda says.
"Technology is only as good as the driver," said Gary Evert, division director for advanced automotive planning at Acura r&d. "The vehicle almost always has more capability than the driver can handle. Anything outside the customer's understanding is waste."
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Honda will overhaul and reposition its Acura lineup over the next 18 months and abandon its long pursuit of top-tier luxury-car status for the brand.
After years of trying to propel Acura into the front ranks with Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Lexus, Honda says it will settle for offering mid-level premium vehicles that favor fuel economy over performance.
With one exception: At the Detroit auto show in January, Honda will bring back the Ferrari-fighting Acura NSX--a new version of the mid-engine supercar that disappeared in 2005 after a 15-year run. But instead of a monster engine, the NSX will have a compact, direct-injection V6 teamed with a lithium ion battery pack.
Another key to recalibrating Acura is the rollout of three new or redesigned sedans in the next 18 months, including a smaller compact and a bigger flagship.
"We are not satisfied with Acura's current positioning," Honda Motor Co. CEO Takanobu Ito said this month at the Tokyo Motor Show. "We want to showcase interesting and fun technologies and show excellent environmental performance."
In the works for Acura:
-- The ILX compact sedan will arrive in spring, using Honda's global Civic platform. It replaces the tired TSX that used the bones of the European Accord.
-- A redesigned RL flagship that is larger than the current version is due next fall.
-- A redesigned mid-sized TL sedan follows in the spring of 2013.
"Our sedans haven't been doing the job for the brand," said Vicki Poponi, American Honda assistant vice president for product planning, at a briefing here for dealers and the media.
Poponi said the TSX, TL and RL were cannibalizing sales because they were too close in footprint and interior size. The new models will create a bigger spread in the lineup.
Changes in the crossover categories also are coming, with a redesigned RDX compact arriving next spring and the next MDX in 2013.
Civic clone?
In using the Civic as the basis for the ILX, Acura is traveling the same platform-sharing course it did with its Integra and RSX coupes in the 1980s and 1990s. But Poponi said the ILX will bear no resemblance to the Civic or the Canadian-market Acura CSX, which has been derided as a rebadged Civic.
"All the suspension settings will be tuned to be Acura," Poponi said. "Consider it as different as the TL is from the Accord or the MDX is from the Pilot."
The ILX will be available with a choice of a 2.0-liter direct-injection four-cylinder engine with automatic transmission, a 2.4-liter engine with a six-speed manual transmission or a 1.5-liter hybrid powertrain. Features will include push-button start, rearview camera, Pandora link and SMS with text-to-voice capability.
Acura hopes that sales of the ILX, to be priced "well below $30,000," will be about 40,000 units annually. The current-generation TSX peaked at 31,998 sales in 2008.
Next up is the flagship RL, which has had little success competing in the $50,000 sedan segment against the likes of the Mercedes-Benz E class, BMW 5 series and Lexus GS. Critics have called it overweight and underpowered, and the interior is cramped.
Poponi said the redesigned version will have more cabin space, with rear legroom going from worst-in-class to the best-in-class.
"It will have [BMW] 7 series cabin space with the agility of a 5 series," Poponi said. "Our sedans need to instill passion and emotion. The new flagship establishes that, and sets the ceiling for premium pricing. Once we have set that, then our SUVs can come into the market and leverage that prestige."
The RL will debut in April at the New York auto show and go on sale next fall.
As for the RDX, the previous generation has been criticized for the jerkiness of its turbocharged four-cylinder engine. The new RDX will have a V6 with "top-class fuel economy," Poponi said.
The RDX also will use the Honda CR-V's simpler electric power steering and all-wheel-drive systems, rather than the pricier Super Handling All-Wheel Drive system of the old RDX. Poponi says it will be "quieter, roomier and more comfortable."
Then there is the NSX that arrives in concept form next month in Detroit. The original V6-powered NSX was decked out with astonishing technology when it debuted in 1990. It was the first car without turbos to deliver 100 hp per liter of engine displacement. It also was the first major project for body engineer Takanobu Ito, now Honda's CEO.
Ito killed a previous NSX concept after the autumn 2008 Lehman Brothers meltdown destroyed Honda's desire to re-enter the segment. The project has been revived, but Ito has changed the concept.
"Our approach is efficiency and a strong power-to-weight ratio," said Acura sales boss Jeff Conrad. "The original NSX did this. But the proposed successor went into the classic world of a heavy vehicle, requiring a V10 engine and other technologies to be a performance car."
Conrad adds: "That is not Acura DNA. If we are thinking about being sporty, we need to do it with the machine's efficiency. That's the thing we can do. The way we achieve it will be unique to Acura."
In addition to the NSX's compact V6, the lithium ion battery-powered Sport Hybrid All-Wheel Drive system uses two integrated drive units at the rear wheels connected to a motor-generator that delivers power.
Regenerative brakes will capture electricity and deliver torque to the outside wheel--while absorbing negative torque from the inside wheel--as the car goes through a corner.
American Honda President Tetsuo Iwamura did not set a date for the NSX's launch, saying: "We hope within three years. ... As soon as possible."
Too much machine
Despite the NSX's go-fast ambitions, a major part of Acura's new philosophy will be dialing back on performance in exchange for fuel economy. Executives say that today's luxury cars have more power than they need, and that premium-vehicle buyers now care more about mpg than mph.
Conrad said Acura has returned to its original philosophy of elegant engineering and top-of-class fuel economy, and has stopped chasing the elite of the luxury segment. The new slogan: "Smart luxury."
Mike Accavitti, the former head of Dodge who became American Honda's vice president of marketing in August, describes the current luxury market as "too much machine and not enough humanity."
Said Accavitti: "Our overweight bodies require overweight engines and more safety systems to protect them. Some of these cars the average driver just can't control. We have been increasing performance beyond the ability of the driver, or we have complicated the driving process."
Poponi said of Acura's previous batch of products: "Our engineering ego was getting in the way."
Peaks and valleys
American Honda hopes this philosophy can stabilize Acura's sales, which have peaked twice--once in the early 1990s and again in setting a brand record in 2005, at 209,610 units. But each time things fell apart because of ill-conceived products and faulty marketing--not to mention the recent recession. This year, sales through November were down 7 percent to 110,170. Honda says short supplies caused by the March earthquake in Japan were a factor.
For a new crop of customers, Honda is looking at Generation Y. The leading edge of that generation is turning 30, and Honda says the generation's top priorities are exterior styling, price and environmental friendliness.
"A good sound system" finished fifth in its research, and less than 20 percent care about high performance, Honda says.
"Technology is only as good as the driver," said Gary Evert, division director for advanced automotive planning at Acura r&d. "The vehicle almost always has more capability than the driver can handle. Anything outside the customer's understanding is waste."
12-27-2011, 01:37 PM
#145
I totally agree! I just purchased 2012 TL SH-AWD tech black/umber. In my comparo, the G let in more road nose, felt the interior was a little chintzy, and definitely less roomy than the TL. Aesthetically, I liked the interior more and the seats and sound system are awesome.
12-27-2011, 01:54 PM
#146
Suzuka Master
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You you think Buick, Chevy & Chrysler will be on the list next time?
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 12-27-2011 at 01:57 PM.
12-27-2011, 02:08 PM
#148
By: Mark Rechtin, Automotive News on 12/12/2011
Related Articles
Honda CEO says the Civic will be improved, shoots down F1 rumors
Honda unveils next-generation engines at Tokyo show
Infiniti JX crossover takes aim at the Acura MDX
2012 Acura TSX Special Edition aimed at the younger generation
Acura future products: Hybrids joining revamped lineup
Honda will overhaul and reposition its Acura lineup over the next 18 months and abandon its long pursuit of top-tier luxury-car status for the brand.
After years of trying to propel Acura into the front ranks with Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Lexus, Honda says it will settle for offering mid-level premium vehicles that favor fuel economy over performance.
With one exception: At the Detroit auto show in January, Honda will bring back the Ferrari-fighting Acura NSX--a new version of the mid-engine supercar that disappeared in 2005 after a 15-year run. But instead of a monster engine, the NSX will have a compact, direct-injection V6 teamed with a lithium ion battery pack.
Another key to recalibrating Acura is the rollout of three new or redesigned sedans in the next 18 months, including a smaller compact and a bigger flagship.
"We are not satisfied with Acura's current positioning," Honda Motor Co. CEO Takanobu Ito said this month at the Tokyo Motor Show. "We want to showcase interesting and fun technologies and show excellent environmental performance."
In the works for Acura:
-- The ILX compact sedan will arrive in spring, using Honda's global Civic platform. It replaces the tired TSX that used the bones of the European Accord.
-- A redesigned RL flagship that is larger than the current version is due next fall.
-- A redesigned mid-sized TL sedan follows in the spring of 2013.
"Our sedans haven't been doing the job for the brand," said Vicki Poponi, American Honda assistant vice president for product planning, at a briefing here for dealers and the media.
Poponi said the TSX, TL and RL were cannibalizing sales because they were too close in footprint and interior size. The new models will create a bigger spread in the lineup.
Changes in the crossover categories also are coming, with a redesigned RDX compact arriving next spring and the next MDX in 2013.
Civic clone?
In using the Civic as the basis for the ILX, Acura is traveling the same platform-sharing course it did with its Integra and RSX coupes in the 1980s and 1990s. But Poponi said the ILX will bear no resemblance to the Civic or the Canadian-market Acura CSX, which has been derided as a rebadged Civic.
"All the suspension settings will be tuned to be Acura," Poponi said. "Consider it as different as the TL is from the Accord or the MDX is from the Pilot."
The ILX will be available with a choice of a 2.0-liter direct-injection four-cylinder engine with automatic transmission, a 2.4-liter engine with a six-speed manual transmission or a 1.5-liter hybrid powertrain. Features will include push-button start, rearview camera, Pandora link and SMS with text-to-voice capability.
Acura hopes that sales of the ILX, to be priced "well below $30,000," will be about 40,000 units annually. The current-generation TSX peaked at 31,998 sales in 2008.
Next up is the flagship RL, which has had little success competing in the $50,000 sedan segment against the likes of the Mercedes-Benz E class, BMW 5 series and Lexus GS. Critics have called it overweight and underpowered, and the interior is cramped.
Poponi said the redesigned version will have more cabin space, with rear legroom going from worst-in-class to the best-in-class.
"It will have [BMW] 7 series cabin space with the agility of a 5 series," Poponi said. "Our sedans need to instill passion and emotion. The new flagship establishes that, and sets the ceiling for premium pricing. Once we have set that, then our SUVs can come into the market and leverage that prestige."
The RL will debut in April at the New York auto show and go on sale next fall.
As for the RDX, the previous generation has been criticized for the jerkiness of its turbocharged four-cylinder engine. The new RDX will have a V6 with "top-class fuel economy," Poponi said.
The RDX also will use the Honda CR-V's simpler electric power steering and all-wheel-drive systems, rather than the pricier Super Handling All-Wheel Drive system of the old RDX. Poponi says it will be "quieter, roomier and more comfortable."
Then there is the NSX that arrives in concept form next month in Detroit. The original V6-powered NSX was decked out with astonishing technology when it debuted in 1990. It was the first car without turbos to deliver 100 hp per liter of engine displacement. It also was the first major project for body engineer Takanobu Ito, now Honda's CEO.
Ito killed a previous NSX concept after the autumn 2008 Lehman Brothers meltdown destroyed Honda's desire to re-enter the segment. The project has been revived, but Ito has changed the concept.
"Our approach is efficiency and a strong power-to-weight ratio," said Acura sales boss Jeff Conrad. "The original NSX did this. But the proposed successor went into the classic world of a heavy vehicle, requiring a V10 engine and other technologies to be a performance car."
Conrad adds: "That is not Acura DNA. If we are thinking about being sporty, we need to do it with the machine's efficiency. That's the thing we can do. The way we achieve it will be unique to Acura."
In addition to the NSX's compact V6, the lithium ion battery-powered Sport Hybrid All-Wheel Drive system uses two integrated drive units at the rear wheels connected to a motor-generator that delivers power.
Regenerative brakes will capture electricity and deliver torque to the outside wheel--while absorbing negative torque from the inside wheel--as the car goes through a corner.
American Honda President Tetsuo Iwamura did not set a date for the NSX's launch, saying: "We hope within three years. ... As soon as possible."
Too much machine
Despite the NSX's go-fast ambitions, a major part of Acura's new philosophy will be dialing back on performance in exchange for fuel economy. Executives say that today's luxury cars have more power than they need, and that premium-vehicle buyers now care more about mpg than mph.
Conrad said Acura has returned to its original philosophy of elegant engineering and top-of-class fuel economy, and has stopped chasing the elite of the luxury segment. The new slogan: "Smart luxury."
Mike Accavitti, the former head of Dodge who became American Honda's vice president of marketing in August, describes the current luxury market as "too much machine and not enough humanity."
Said Accavitti: "Our overweight bodies require overweight engines and more safety systems to protect them. Some of these cars the average driver just can't control. We have been increasing performance beyond the ability of the driver, or we have complicated the driving process."
Poponi said of Acura's previous batch of products: "Our engineering ego was getting in the way."
Peaks and valleys
American Honda hopes this philosophy can stabilize Acura's sales, which have peaked twice--once in the early 1990s and again in setting a brand record in 2005, at 209,610 units. But each time things fell apart because of ill-conceived products and faulty marketing--not to mention the recent recession. This year, sales through November were down 7 percent to 110,170. Honda says short supplies caused by the March earthquake in Japan were a factor.
For a new crop of customers, Honda is looking at Generation Y. The leading edge of that generation is turning 30, and Honda says the generation's top priorities are exterior styling, price and environmental friendliness.
"A good sound system" finished fifth in its research, and less than 20 percent care about high performance, Honda says.
"Technology is only as good as the driver," said Gary Evert, division director for advanced automotive planning at Acura r&d. "The vehicle almost always has more capability than the driver can handle. Anything outside the customer's understanding is waste."
Related Articles
Honda CEO says the Civic will be improved, shoots down F1 rumors
Honda unveils next-generation engines at Tokyo show
Infiniti JX crossover takes aim at the Acura MDX
2012 Acura TSX Special Edition aimed at the younger generation
Acura future products: Hybrids joining revamped lineup
Honda will overhaul and reposition its Acura lineup over the next 18 months and abandon its long pursuit of top-tier luxury-car status for the brand.
After years of trying to propel Acura into the front ranks with Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Lexus, Honda says it will settle for offering mid-level premium vehicles that favor fuel economy over performance.
With one exception: At the Detroit auto show in January, Honda will bring back the Ferrari-fighting Acura NSX--a new version of the mid-engine supercar that disappeared in 2005 after a 15-year run. But instead of a monster engine, the NSX will have a compact, direct-injection V6 teamed with a lithium ion battery pack.
Another key to recalibrating Acura is the rollout of three new or redesigned sedans in the next 18 months, including a smaller compact and a bigger flagship.
"We are not satisfied with Acura's current positioning," Honda Motor Co. CEO Takanobu Ito said this month at the Tokyo Motor Show. "We want to showcase interesting and fun technologies and show excellent environmental performance."
In the works for Acura:
-- The ILX compact sedan will arrive in spring, using Honda's global Civic platform. It replaces the tired TSX that used the bones of the European Accord.
-- A redesigned RL flagship that is larger than the current version is due next fall.
-- A redesigned mid-sized TL sedan follows in the spring of 2013.
"Our sedans haven't been doing the job for the brand," said Vicki Poponi, American Honda assistant vice president for product planning, at a briefing here for dealers and the media.
Poponi said the TSX, TL and RL were cannibalizing sales because they were too close in footprint and interior size. The new models will create a bigger spread in the lineup.
Changes in the crossover categories also are coming, with a redesigned RDX compact arriving next spring and the next MDX in 2013.
Civic clone?
In using the Civic as the basis for the ILX, Acura is traveling the same platform-sharing course it did with its Integra and RSX coupes in the 1980s and 1990s. But Poponi said the ILX will bear no resemblance to the Civic or the Canadian-market Acura CSX, which has been derided as a rebadged Civic.
"All the suspension settings will be tuned to be Acura," Poponi said. "Consider it as different as the TL is from the Accord or the MDX is from the Pilot."
The ILX will be available with a choice of a 2.0-liter direct-injection four-cylinder engine with automatic transmission, a 2.4-liter engine with a six-speed manual transmission or a 1.5-liter hybrid powertrain. Features will include push-button start, rearview camera, Pandora link and SMS with text-to-voice capability.
Acura hopes that sales of the ILX, to be priced "well below $30,000," will be about 40,000 units annually. The current-generation TSX peaked at 31,998 sales in 2008.
Next up is the flagship RL, which has had little success competing in the $50,000 sedan segment against the likes of the Mercedes-Benz E class, BMW 5 series and Lexus GS. Critics have called it overweight and underpowered, and the interior is cramped.
Poponi said the redesigned version will have more cabin space, with rear legroom going from worst-in-class to the best-in-class.
"It will have [BMW] 7 series cabin space with the agility of a 5 series," Poponi said. "Our sedans need to instill passion and emotion. The new flagship establishes that, and sets the ceiling for premium pricing. Once we have set that, then our SUVs can come into the market and leverage that prestige."
The RL will debut in April at the New York auto show and go on sale next fall.
As for the RDX, the previous generation has been criticized for the jerkiness of its turbocharged four-cylinder engine. The new RDX will have a V6 with "top-class fuel economy," Poponi said.
The RDX also will use the Honda CR-V's simpler electric power steering and all-wheel-drive systems, rather than the pricier Super Handling All-Wheel Drive system of the old RDX. Poponi says it will be "quieter, roomier and more comfortable."
Then there is the NSX that arrives in concept form next month in Detroit. The original V6-powered NSX was decked out with astonishing technology when it debuted in 1990. It was the first car without turbos to deliver 100 hp per liter of engine displacement. It also was the first major project for body engineer Takanobu Ito, now Honda's CEO.
Ito killed a previous NSX concept after the autumn 2008 Lehman Brothers meltdown destroyed Honda's desire to re-enter the segment. The project has been revived, but Ito has changed the concept.
"Our approach is efficiency and a strong power-to-weight ratio," said Acura sales boss Jeff Conrad. "The original NSX did this. But the proposed successor went into the classic world of a heavy vehicle, requiring a V10 engine and other technologies to be a performance car."
Conrad adds: "That is not Acura DNA. If we are thinking about being sporty, we need to do it with the machine's efficiency. That's the thing we can do. The way we achieve it will be unique to Acura."
In addition to the NSX's compact V6, the lithium ion battery-powered Sport Hybrid All-Wheel Drive system uses two integrated drive units at the rear wheels connected to a motor-generator that delivers power.
Regenerative brakes will capture electricity and deliver torque to the outside wheel--while absorbing negative torque from the inside wheel--as the car goes through a corner.
American Honda President Tetsuo Iwamura did not set a date for the NSX's launch, saying: "We hope within three years. ... As soon as possible."
Too much machine
Despite the NSX's go-fast ambitions, a major part of Acura's new philosophy will be dialing back on performance in exchange for fuel economy. Executives say that today's luxury cars have more power than they need, and that premium-vehicle buyers now care more about mpg than mph.
Conrad said Acura has returned to its original philosophy of elegant engineering and top-of-class fuel economy, and has stopped chasing the elite of the luxury segment. The new slogan: "Smart luxury."
Mike Accavitti, the former head of Dodge who became American Honda's vice president of marketing in August, describes the current luxury market as "too much machine and not enough humanity."
Said Accavitti: "Our overweight bodies require overweight engines and more safety systems to protect them. Some of these cars the average driver just can't control. We have been increasing performance beyond the ability of the driver, or we have complicated the driving process."
Poponi said of Acura's previous batch of products: "Our engineering ego was getting in the way."
Peaks and valleys
American Honda hopes this philosophy can stabilize Acura's sales, which have peaked twice--once in the early 1990s and again in setting a brand record in 2005, at 209,610 units. But each time things fell apart because of ill-conceived products and faulty marketing--not to mention the recent recession. This year, sales through November were down 7 percent to 110,170. Honda says short supplies caused by the March earthquake in Japan were a factor.
For a new crop of customers, Honda is looking at Generation Y. The leading edge of that generation is turning 30, and Honda says the generation's top priorities are exterior styling, price and environmental friendliness.
"A good sound system" finished fifth in its research, and less than 20 percent care about high performance, Honda says.
"Technology is only as good as the driver," said Gary Evert, division director for advanced automotive planning at Acura r&d. "The vehicle almost always has more capability than the driver can handle. Anything outside the customer's understanding is waste."
Interesting article.....I seriuously think this is the end of Acura...there is not point in being another Buick...I would not be suprised if the brand shuts down within 3-4 years if they keep going along this kamikaze path.
However let's qualify the content here....Acura cannot compete with the top dogs simply because they do not have larger more powerful engines, RWD platforms and bigger more luxurious models....this has always been the case...so it means they will not compete (they never did) with the top tier as a brand as whole that does not means they will not have models that compete with specific BMW or Audi models, especially in the entry-mid level part of the offering ......this has always been the case already, nothing has changed.....the fact that they do admit it in public with written words just demonstrate how asinine the management of the company is.
I laugh when I read "After years of trying to propel Acura into the front ranks with Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Lexus,...." they never really tried.....an Accord derivative was always as far as they were willing to go....well we had the NSX but that's it....
The RL was definitely killed by the TL...same size, same engine so what's the point???
As much as I like the TL size, it was a mistake ballooning it to its current size...this left Acura with no real 3 Series competitor...the TSX, especially without the SH-AWD does not have a chance....
Acura is basically betting its future on the forecast that oil will get so expensive that even the luxury buyer will be more fuel conscious...e new paradigm for luxury....good luck with that!!! So far this bet has not paid off for the Japanese manufacturers (all the efforts in the luxury hybrid arena)which they are being smoked by the Germans in the luxury market...
This is the death knell of Acura I think.....the best think they can hope is a serious recession.....what they are trying to do it may pay off 10 or 20 years down the road but not now...
12-27-2011, 02:10 PM
#149
Suzuka Master
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Looking at your chart & how well things worked out for them when they overreached, do you realize the the annual units sold number is less then 50% of the 3G versions typical year & quite a bit short of its peak 80K+ units sold.
I am willing to bet over the years the other mid sized luxury cars on the list, even Hyundai, have been showing pretty steady growth, not at 50% retrenchment.
Also you might want to do some research on Honda profits before making sweeping statements about them.
I am willing to bet over the years the other mid sized luxury cars on the list, even Hyundai, have been showing pretty steady growth, not at 50% retrenchment.
Also you might want to do some research on Honda profits before making sweeping statements about them.
12-27-2011, 02:14 PM
#150
Burning Brakes
That same site, which is prove all you need is a webserver to appear to be a legimate publisher, shows the tl ytd as 27,594, 5 series as 46,604, and 3 series as 85,882. and g at 51,715. While some of you may dislike the 3 series, BMW sure seems to sell a lot of them. G sells almost at a two to one ratio.
Anyway, the point here isn't sales; I certainly don't look at a companies financials before I buy a car, the point is performance. Maybe Acura can turn this around, their next generation cars sound interesting, but then again Infiniti and BMW are no where close to standing still either.
Anyway, the point here isn't sales; I certainly don't look at a companies financials before I buy a car, the point is performance. Maybe Acura can turn this around, their next generation cars sound interesting, but then again Infiniti and BMW are no where close to standing still either.
12-27-2011, 02:19 PM
#151
Suzuka Master
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saturno_v,
The thing that really pisses me off about Honda is they invented the Japanese premium car in the US market then let Toyota take it away from them.
We have had some goes over the years but I do really believe the Acura is basically a very good product that incompetent marketing & senior management bungling badly mauled. The only way to have any sense of holding reasonable price lines across this spectrum is to have more not less manufactures in the mix. I would be very happy to see Acura get its act together & dominate its niche the way it used to.
The thing that really pisses me off about Honda is they invented the Japanese premium car in the US market then let Toyota take it away from them.
We have had some goes over the years but I do really believe the Acura is basically a very good product that incompetent marketing & senior management bungling badly mauled. The only way to have any sense of holding reasonable price lines across this spectrum is to have more not less manufactures in the mix. I would be very happy to see Acura get its act together & dominate its niche the way it used to.
12-27-2011, 02:22 PM
#152
If you accept that Hyundai is a mid sized luxury car & guess you might like the list. Thing is it got outsold by your chosen 5 series competitor despite, will take a wild ass guess here, a $10K+ price advantage.
You you think Buick, Chevy & Chrysler will be on the list next time?
You you think Buick, Chevy & Chrysler will be on the list next time?
I posted only the chart but I should have posted the article...the Genesis is the exception in that list because it has all the characteristic of a luxury midsize sedan (high tech engines, refinement, luxury appointments) even if the brand is not "officially" a premium brand...a Genesis is closer to a 5 Series than a 300C is in any way you want to look at.
Buick, Chevy and Chrysler are not included because they are not luxury brands and their cars are nto exactly at the leading edge of technology....you may argue about the 300C, howewer it is a full size sedan so it does not belong here sizewise anyway.
What about the price advantage?? The Genesis has a price advantage and it sells worse...the A6 cost as much as the 5 Series but it belongs to the bottom of the list....the E class is in the same price bracket and it smokes out the 5 Series....people do not buy cars stretching their last dollars (which means that in that category, cheaper does not necessarily means selling more)...many people buy cars if they like them or not even if there are price differences...someone is buying all these TLs...someone find them appealing....
One thing we should add...the TL has only 2 models....FWD 3.5 and SH-AWD 3.7...the 5 Series has 6 models, 528i, 528i xDrive, 535i, 535i xDrive, 550i, 550i xDrive.
12-27-2011, 02:28 PM
#153
saturno_v,
The thing that really pisses me off about Honda is they invented the Japanese premium car in the US market then let Toyota take it away from them.
We have had some goes over the years but I do really believe the Acura is basically a very good product that incompetent marketing & senior management bungling badly mauled. The only way to have any sense of holding reasonable price lines across this spectrum is to have more not less manufactures in the mix. I would be very happy to see Acura get its act together & dominate its niche the way it used to.
The thing that really pisses me off about Honda is they invented the Japanese premium car in the US market then let Toyota take it away from them.
We have had some goes over the years but I do really believe the Acura is basically a very good product that incompetent marketing & senior management bungling badly mauled. The only way to have any sense of holding reasonable price lines across this spectrum is to have more not less manufactures in the mix. I would be very happy to see Acura get its act together & dominate its niche the way it used to.
12-27-2011, 02:36 PM
#154
Looking at your chart & how well things worked out for them when they overreached, do you realize the the annual units sold number is less then 50% of the 3G versions typical year & quite a bit short of its peak 80K+ units sold.
I am willing to bet over the years the other mid sized luxury cars on the list, even Hyundai, have been showing pretty steady growth, not at 50% retrenchment.
I am willing to bet over the years the other mid sized luxury cars on the list, even Hyundai, have been showing pretty steady growth, not at 50% retrenchment.
Also you might want to do some research on Honda profits before making sweeping statements about them.
Last edited by saturno_v; 12-27-2011 at 02:41 PM.
12-27-2011, 02:40 PM
#155
That same site, which is prove all you need is a webserver to appear to be a legimate publisher, shows the tl ytd as 27,594, 5 series as 46,604, and 3 series as 85,882. and g at 51,715. While some of you may dislike the 3 series, BMW sure seems to sell a lot of them. G sells almost at a two to one ratio.
Anyway, the point here isn't sales; I certainly don't look at a companies financials before I buy a car, the point is performance. Maybe Acura can turn this around, their next generation cars sound interesting, but then again Infiniti and BMW are no where close to standing still either.
Anyway, the point here isn't sales; I certainly don't look at a companies financials before I buy a car, the point is performance. Maybe Acura can turn this around, their next generation cars sound interesting, but then again Infiniti and BMW are no where close to standing still either.
Be glad that there is a site like that which goes through the pain of aggregate all the sales data and make them easily accessible (and for free), I would not piss on them...and definitely they are not Acura shills!!!
You forgot the tsunami this year..Lexus alone lost 3% of market share because of it......in summer there were no cars in the parking lots!!! read some old posts of people trying to buy TLs at that time.....
12-27-2011, 02:49 PM
#156
For what it's worth I looked at BMW 3 and 5 series as well as Mercedes C and E class, while I eventually bought a TL anyone in their right mind can sit in th backseat of a TL and feel/see/measure that it is a hell of a lot closer to an E and 5 series size.
I have a family and ruled out the 3 series and C class in about 1 minute. Maybe styling and price points can be argued but size is how most define sedans and the TL is not in the small size (TSX I guess would be).
For what it's worth eventual decision was made on reliability, value, and better/more fund styling than an E or 5 series (non M or AMG anyway).
I have a family and ruled out the 3 series and C class in about 1 minute. Maybe styling and price points can be argued but size is how most define sedans and the TL is not in the small size (TSX I guess would be).
For what it's worth eventual decision was made on reliability, value, and better/more fund styling than an E or 5 series (non M or AMG anyway).
12-27-2011, 03:47 PM
#158
Burning Brakes
Be glad that there is a site like that which goes through the pain of aggregate all the sales data and make them easily accessible (and for free), I would not piss on them...and definitely they are not Acura shills!!!
You forgot the tsunami this year..Lexus alone lost 3% of market share because of it......in summer there were no cars in the parking lots!!! read some old posts of people trying to buy TLs at that time.....
You forgot the tsunami this year..Lexus alone lost 3% of market share because of it......in summer there were no cars in the parking lots!!! read some old posts of people trying to buy TLs at that time.....
You are right, this site is data aggregators. They classify them one way by size, I usually look at cars by segment. The 3 series eclipses the segment so it's a fact that not everybody cares about bus like space in the back seat. I myself need it to be just enough.
12-27-2011, 04:56 PM
#159
They look at size and segment...the TL is a midsize car and it comes from a luxury/premium brand et voila' it is correctly slotted as midsize luxury sedan........then you have people brand perception but it is highly subjective.....
12-27-2011, 04:58 PM
#160
Suzuka Master
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For what it's worth I looked at BMW 3 and 5 series as well as Mercedes C and E class, while I eventually bought a TL anyone in their right mind can sit in th backseat of a TL and feel/see/measure that it is a hell of a lot closer to an E and 5 series size.
I have a family and ruled out the 3 series and C class in about 1 minute. Maybe styling and price points can be argued but size is how most define sedans and the TL is not in the small size (TSX I guess would be).
For what it's worth eventual decision was made on reliability, value, and better/more fund styling than an E or 5 series (non M or AMG anyway).
I have a family and ruled out the 3 series and C class in about 1 minute. Maybe styling and price points can be argued but size is how most define sedans and the TL is not in the small size (TSX I guess would be).
For what it's worth eventual decision was made on reliability, value, and better/more fund styling than an E or 5 series (non M or AMG anyway).
I think one thing everybody agrees with is no one is buying a 3 series for the back seat. I also think if you go to a BMW forum & say lets make the car bigger so we can have a better back seat you would not be well received. One of the big bitch lines is that the 3 is already getting too porky & moving away from the old ideals that the 2002 series was based on.
They are knocking out 85,000 cars a year, about what the Acura 3G used to sell when it topped the market segment, so I don’t see them changing the formula & tanking sales. In my case the look into quickly narrowed down to the 335is coupe & the Infiniti IPL G coupe.
I needed a back seat in the car on occasion even if to just pick up stuff from Costco & both fit the bill. Otherwise I would have bought a 2 seat Corvette Grand Sport which was on my radar screen.