sebounet2005

i don t know where you leave but this combo for 2012 exist only in Canada.

g37guy01

With either car trying to take the car to the limit on the twisties is just plain stupid. Maybe when you are 18 and don't believe in mortality you will run the car at the limit and hyper illegal speeds every chance you get. I have a lot to lose at this stage so I am a conservative driver and don't want to get killed being a jerk on the road.

In truth these cars are very close performance wise. You pick the vehicle that suits you best.

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree about antidotal stories.

That being said its reasonable to accept that new version of any brand will be quite a bit more reliable then a 25 year old version. My first car was a 1957 Ford Fairlane 500 Sunliner that I bought used in 1959. It lived up to its Fix Or Repair Daily reputation including a blown engine.

The other side of the coin is my 1998 Ranger Pickup's 13 years with out any problems till it barffed up it’s A/C compressor a few months back. Additionally have not had any issues with any of my Explores or Expeditions. The Xterra has also been trouble free & is now being used by my grandson

I personally don’t think is a good plan to swear off any brand over what happened 25 years in the past since I went through the TL 3rd gear issues (replaced under TSB) & my son in laws Accord EX V6 dropped its 5AT @ 65K miles.

The class action thing got him a replacement that Honda was tap dancing on. It also took a lot of years to get even the TSB out on the 6MT & will be interesting to see how the guy in the 4G 3rd gear post here makes out.

Its not good to see that a lingering problem, acknowledged by Honda’s TSB in 2008, going back 10 years is still around.

To be fair the family has purchased a pair of 4X4 Pilots that are doing well despite the prior problems with other Honda products.

JM2010 SH-AWD

Good points, but I'm more comfortable betting on Honda reliability down the road (especially when shelling out close to 40K) compared to most other makes, especially the Euros. Overall, I think the numbers back this up.

g37guy01

I have the year end cr edition. Even the 3 series is recommended. Sales of the 3 series show people are not afraid of the 3 series.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

^ BMW has aggressive lease deals; with the maintenance package it's a no brainer.

docboy

I have not seen this year's CR auto edition; if I recall CR usually only recommends the 328i and says to avoid the AWD and turbo models.

I was scared off by the 3 series.

Before I got my TL, the 335xi manual (which I had to order since no dealer had it on the lot) was my first choice. I got scared off by the numerous HPFP failures. Even with BMW's maintenance program, I didn't want to deal with a car that could leave me stranded and demand unnecessary time away from my office.

andvari

I gave the 335i very serious consideration before buying a TL. The ongoing HPFP issues were a big factor in my not going that way. I was also not happy with the idea of run flats. Lots of reported issues with those.

g37guy01

I agree about being stranded, but the 335 doesn't worry me in that regard, I just didn't want to spend the money to load it up.

I think you are correct if I remember correctly, cr does recommend the 328 but not the 335. I also don't think cr recommended the tl shawd.

andvari

I had a couple of Fords including a 68 Falcon which was basically a Mustang sedan. While they weren't particularly reliable this was an era where the village blacksmith could fix almost anything that went wrong on a car. I did everything on the Falcon mostly because I was in grad school at the time and had no money for a garage. After the Fords I tried a variety of Japanese models and had good luck with a Toyota Corona and a Honda Accord, bad luck with a Datsun and ok results with a 4WD Subaru except for a blown headgasket and funky rear differential. Since then I've basically stuck with Toyota/Honda. I think the TL is the 7th Toyota/Honda in my family including cars I helped my wife and sons choose.

Mr Marco

(High Pressure Fuel Pump)I thought that problem was nulled by the 10-year, 120,000-mile fuel pump warranty that BMW launched to cover the issue.

Hamma Tyme

Just an FYI, the HPFP issues have been resolved on the N54 engine and the 2011 N55 engine has had no problems.

BEAR-AvHistory

The BMW sites seem to bear this out. That & the warranty are the reasons I did not worry about getting the 2011.

Just as an aside my 330ci will pass 100K miles this month or early next month. The only "extra" money I have in it is $400 for 4 O2 sensors & $60 for a valve cover gasket & grommets. Also put fresh plugs in when I did the valve cover.

Hope to keep it till the F33's come out as a 2013 model. It my understanding the new M3/4? will be a tri-turbo powered 3.3 I6 so it will be high on my look into list along with the new M5. Passed on the current M3 because of its lack of torque & peaky engine.

andvari

Yes, a warranty is good as such, but it doesn't make up for the frustration and inconvenience of a non-working vehicle. There are people who have had to use that warranty several times. Plus it only covers up to the 2009 model year.

Not for me.

AEmedic

iTrader: (1)

Be ready to either replace most of the cooling system ASAP or risk an extreme break down!
These are known for expansion tank failures at or around 100k miles... Most of the cooling system is plastic!

BEAR-AvHistory

There is a BMW cooling repair kit available for $325 to cover this. It's a straight forward DIY. A lot less expensive then the TL 105K miles timing belt & water pump requirement.

About the HPFP fails....In the end all fixes involved a software change to boost suction side pressure to the HPFP.

The change in pressure was a cure for pump cavitation, the problem likely resulted from ethanol being present in US fuel, which boiled on the suction side (cavitation) and whose bubbles collapsed on the pressure side resulting in micro jets of fuel impinging on pump walls/parts leading to failure.

The 335's in Australia, which has driving conditions similar to the US, had no widespread HPFP problems because there's no ethanol in the fuel...it was really dumb on BMW's part to take so long to figure this out when the clue was staring them in the face had they looked a little deeper. Both Ford trucks & VW had a similar issue with DI engines & HPFP.

Mr Marco

Fuuuuu...ethanol, don't get me started.

Grinchrich.

AEmedic

iTrader: (1)

This was not a criticism, it was just a statement of fact, I use to have a 100k 325i and I caught the failure just in time.

jmkenn0

I went through the same choice (buy though, not lease)... after driving CTS, TL, IS, A4, 3 series, G, immediately removed the A4/IS/3 series as too small/too pricey (relatively compared)/too high-maintenance (for the Germans). They would have had to been in my price range and wow'd me anyway, so I was probably biased on those from the start.

The CTS was alright, but still has that damn "GM" badge on the side and I was looking for proven quality, so that left the G and the TL.

GL
+ Exterior looks
+ Engine
- Dash/interior materials
- Size

TL
+ Interior layout (I still hate the plastic dash though; my 2002 4 runner has a better dash)
+ Interior Size
+ Handling (MT - SH-AWD)
- Looks (although 2012 was much improved with the loss of the beak)

Really, the 0.9% financing, handling, and size sold it to me. People who regularly drive Lexus' and BMW's get in the back of the TL and remark how roomy it is. Then you drop a gear and accelerate through a turn with that outside wheel spinning and they are really impressed.

The handling is really unbelievable for a car that size and not the greatest tires on the 2012; if you have the manual and aren't afraid to accelerate through a turn you can definitely feel the impact of the SH-AWD. And if the rear wheels break free, you still have the front wheel's pulling you forward.

Hamma Tyme

The issue with BMW N54 HPFP is much like the issues with the 2nd generation Acura transmissions. There were Acura owners going through 3 and 4 transmissions before Acura admitted to the issue and extended the warranty to 100k on the transmissions. Shit happens and eventually the companies correct the issue. All BMWs with the N54 engine received the 10 year/120k extended warranty. The new N55 engine has thus far has not shown any issues as the N54.

The failed N54 HPFPs caused the car to go into a limp mode and was still driveable to the dealerships. Is it still a pain in the ass and an inconvenience? Yes, but these things happened in the past, are happening now, and will happen in the future with virtually all car companies. Again, shit happens.

BEAR-AvHistory

My bad......

andvari

Yes, that is true. However I try to avoid these sorts of things. Luckily the Internet gives you a better chance to do so.

jjsC5

I agree with you. I've seen lots of forum information about this and that problem with vehicles. In fact, I'm a big motorcycle geek, and one of the more common complaints about not buying such and such a bike is BMW related also. On the Goldwing forum I'm always reading about how you should not buy a BMW for this or that reason (usually rear drive failures). Yet the Goldwing guys seem to forget that quite a few of the early GL1800 Goldwings (current generation) had their frame break in two. Geee, no problem there, huh?

g37guy01

Manufacturers do misdesign components. Right Acura? Thankfully I've never been stranded like my Acura buddy when his tranny failed. Things happen, things get fixed and one moves on.

saturno_v

To the OP


You cannot go wrong with the G.....the minuses compared to the TL are the smaller size (subjective point, depending on your needs) and the more ordinary look (IMHO)....still a beautiful car but not as stand out like the TL.

The G has more power and it is lighter...in the RWD form is more fun and agile to drive but it cannot match the sharp handling of the SH-AWD......you cannot wrong with either one and they both beat the Germans in terms of value for the money by a mile.....

With the TL, in the same ballpark money of the G you end up with a worthy competitor (size/power/capabilities) of an entry/mid level A6 or 5 Series.

g37guy01

That is why it is important to do your homework you are down to the nits.

- Where you say G is ordinary, I say G is classier looking
- Where you say G cannot match the sharp handling of the TL, I say TL came in behind G and BMW in every comparo I've seen except for two (one was sponsored by Acura).
- The G auto is faster and probably (6mt also).
- TL is bigger (a negative in my opinion)
- TL may have some better tech
- CR doesn't recommend the shawd version, but I think it also does not recomment the G37x.

Anybody shopping for cars has to do their homework. But I do agree, with whatever you pick, it's your car, you picked it for your reasons and good luck with it.

JM2010 SH-AWD

Based on my 20+ years of owning Honda/Acura products, including motorcycles, I'll put my $$ on Honda reliability every time. Yes, everyone makes mistakes (they are, after all, designed/built by human beings), but statistically, Honda products are as reliable as anyone can expect a mass-produced product to be.

That said, I've had three Nissan products as well. Two were very reliable, one was so-so. I have no concerns about Infiniti quality, and would gladly have bought a G37 if I had not liked the TL more.

But I think anyone arguing "brand X is more reliable than Honda products" has the losing side of that argument over time.

g37guy01

You are right and I agree 100%. This was in response to the posts about avoiding the 3 series due to past "issues" with the fuel pump. Nobody wants to be inconvenienced, but with autos as in financial products, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.


The reason I would not buy a TL has nothing to do with the (now long gone) tranny problems any more than not buying a 3 series has anything to do with the (now resolved) fuel pump problems.

Hamma Tyme

Nobody is arguing....at least not yet.

saturno_v

I never heard of any comparo where the TL SH-AWD (manual) come behind the 3 Series and the G in the handling department......we are not talking about straight line numbers...maybe the 3 or the G were more "fun" to drive which is a different concept (and highly subjective).

On C&D the TL SH-AWD matched (and in some case bested) every performance number (skidpad, slalom, braking, acceleration) of a Porsche Panamera 3.6 4, a car costing double the price (in base trim)....

I do not remember exactly which of the major magazines (either MT or R&T) but there was a comparo with the S4 where the Audi won overall (by a hair) but the TL SH-AWD was actually a bit faster on the track.....not a test sponsored by Acura.....

BEAR-AvHistory

On handling I think the point is that they are so close, given a tight track, that on any given day in the hands of a pro driver at 10/10ths anyone can win. The illusion that an SH AWD can run away & hide from the others on the street is just that, an illusion.

No one on the street should be crazy enough to push any of these cars to a 10/10th corning level. There is a saying here about hero cornering runs on the street, "The NC State Tree is a telephone poll wrapped in a Camaro"

The one thing that is very interesting about the Streets of Willow comparos is the TL lapping at 1.01 or so. The best Fettari , Vipers, ZL1 Corvettes can do is about 1.25. IIRC Michael Andretti holds the track record in a CART Indycar @ 01:06:050.

This would suggest they ran an abbreviated course that did not let the other cars really employ their horsepower advantage. Even so it was pretty much an even time for all the cars given one is supposed to out handle the others by a wide margin.

BEAR-AvHistory

About skid pad & braking with the cars we are talking about @ C&D

C/D TEST RESULTS: 2011 335i
Zero to 60 mph: 5.0 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 12.0 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 21.3 sec
Zero to 150 mph: 32.7 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 5.5 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 13.7 sec @ 106 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 156 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 160 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.88 g
FUEL ECONOMY:
EPA city/highway driving: 19/28 mpg
C/D observed: 21 mpg

C/D TEST RESULTS: 2012 SH AWD
Zero to 60 mph: 6.2 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 15.4 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 6.6 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.7 sec @ 98 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 125 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 178 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.86 g
EPA city/highway driving: 18/26 mpg
C/D observed: 21 mpg

BTW I don't have a dog in this fight since I have an overpriced moded 335is version.

winstrolvtec

^I feel very much the same way about the illusion of straight-line acceleration, also on the street that is. Traps 1-3 mph more can be considered negligible on the street and even as much as .5 faster doesn't always translate if there is a slight difference in the capabilities of the driver in addition to a multitude of other factors.

I agree that there is not much distancing these cars in terms of handling but if you had to make the case for which one was "better" it would certainly be the slowest car in the comparison posting the 2nd fastest time (and by a hair) only behind the car that has clearly distinquished itself as being the fastest in the group. That is even despite a track that was abbreviated but had plenty of straight away at the same time.

The capabilities that SH displays in the TL is not that spectacular in comparison by themselves but when you take into account that the TL is not as small, balanced, and in most cases, not as light as many of the cars it gets compared to, that's where it really shines. If Acura actually created a product that was a bit more of an appropriate fit in terms of size, weight, balance, and similar sports demeanor, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that any gap that exists now would then be even greater.

It's not exactly fair to compare them outside of the basis of price and luxury position. Looking at it in the reverse, you wouldn't compare the G's, 3's and S4's of the world against the TL in a comparo if the basis of the criteria was size, space, and comfort instead. At least not without the proper consideration that it is not a level playing field to begin with.

The fact that TL is very much in the mix with these cars in terms of overall performance and capabilities and categorically belongs to another size segment spoke volumes to me and is why I personally have one. But the thing is if you are not looking for that type of vehicle to begin (entry luxury AWD or FWD mid size sedan with typically less sport intent and demeanor but not necessarily bottom-line capabilities depending on the trim) than the TL doesn't make a lot sense to some folks and that's where a G or the others come into play.

saturno_v

Consider that the 3 Series is a significantly smaller car....

winstrolvtec

Coupe vs sedan, 6AT vs 6MT. Weight, drivetrain, max summer vs high performance all-season. Need I say more?

volnedan

Going back to the OP's choice, I currently have a 2010 G37 sedan RWD auto, and this is my 4th Infiniti G series (04 coupe, 06 coupe, 08 coupe). My lease is ending soon, and I have been weighing out all my options. I love Infiniti and they are great cars, but I think I just want something different.

Had a 2012 TL w/tech (fwd) for a few days from my company fleet for some benchmark testing, and I was very impressed with build quality and interior. The FWD was not as engaging as my RWD vehicle, but it was still fun and I thought the handling tradeoff was not much of a difference.

Compared to the A4 and 328 I test drove as well, I'd rather take the fwd TL over those 2 Germans. Size is important for me now since I have a newborn on the way, and need the extra space in back seat for rear facing child seat (not something I had to worry about in my 20s).

It all comes down to a balance of what you want and what you need. I love the G37 series and will most likely own one again in the future, but right now my next choice is the 2012 TL.

erick3

Interesting thread. I'm a recent Infiniti convert as well (albeit I see that the OP decided against). Despite, while I do love my G37S 6MT, I really have to say that I DO ALSO miss my previous generation TL. I don't entirely agree with these comments about the quality of the interior; it's not really "under-par" in quality, but I can say that isn't as "spaceship" like as the newer generation TL's are - is this what some of you mean by "terrible quality"...? lol. I ALMOST bought a 4G TL SH-AWD 6MT prior, but with my current age, I wanted something a bit sportier. Sportiness was the sole impression that I was looking for in my next (current) vehicle.

Let me tell you though - the gearbox SUCKS. Rough shifts and grinding gears and poor synchros are expected and considered normal. Customer service and the dealership (in my particular region) are certainly NOT as flattering and helpful as my previous Acura dealership was. My next car will definitely take into consideration the availability of dealerships + their customer service ratings as well. The car IS indeed quicker than my previous TL, but not by much. The engine isn't linear and the aftermarket support is minimal (Car has i/e/tps/gears + UpRev tuned at the moment). All in all, love the car, but I DO MISS MY TL!

She's a looker though (middle)

g37guy01

^^^As you know dealers are a hit and miss. My Infiniti dealer on dealerratings.com has almost a solid 5 up and down.

It does pay to do your homework as to the dealer, however, it should seem like all luxury dealerships should treat their customers with A+ service.

I also take the convenience of the dealer to my home/work as a factor.

BEAR-AvHistory

Lets see the 2 & 4 door 3’s are just about the same weight with the 4 door up about 30/35lbs, the AT is quicker then the MT according to info provided by BMW, both cars are available with summer tires. I did not look at what they had on the cars. That being said the BMW has run flats which most people looking for performance quickly get rid of because they don’t perform as well as get flats.

Agree the TL is bigger by about 300lbs but it also claims 5 more whp & is a 4X4. A trap speed spread of 8mph cannot be attributed to a 300lb spread in dry weight. Street start spread which I believe you always suggest as a meaning full number is 1.1 seconds which is an 88ft foot lead & not trivial in a 5-60 run.

Using a split trap speed of 104mph at the end of the quarter its makes the distance between cars about 150ft. Math might be off but should be close enough for government work, your mileage may vary.

The guys here have always stressed the skid pad as meaningful when the TL was at the top off the list...I don't believe it equates all that well to real life but it is what it is with the 4X4 coming in a close second. Finally an 18 foot disadvantage in stopping distance is also IMHO a significant number in real life.

Its not my intention, despite what some think, to beat up on the TL. I was very satisfied with mine for 50K+ miles. It’s a competent car with good value for the dollar but I did not like the styling, personal choice, & also wanted to move on to a 2 door which made my choice easy.

That being said reading SH AWD posts written with the same sense of awe as the second coming of Jim Hall’s Chaparral pegs my I wanna be in this thread meter. It’s a nice system, overcomes the torque steer issues of the FWD but does not IMHO put the TL on a different handling plane then the other cars in the thread.

It’s a lot like the vtec silliness when just about every other manufacture at this level has technology that produces the same results of optimizing torque at the bottom end & horsepower on the top end.

This is not a new plan. Some of my race cars in the 1960’s had spring loaded adjustable cam shaft drives that accomplished the same thing. Reducing overlap/duration at the bottom & adding it back in at the top. Computers do it faster, smarter, better & also manage lift but its still not something all new.

Bottom line is I don't think anyone can go wrong buying the car they personally like from among the group we are talking about in the thread.

jpd985

That was a big reason I got my TL. The have a nearby dealer and they are fantastic and was a big reason why I now own a TL and not an A4.