TRIUMPHT

iTrader: (1)

It should've been in red letters since it was meant to be sarcastic. I would not argue with you because you are one of the few that own another brand that makes sensible arguments against the current TL. Yeah sometimes you get more personal & opinionated but we all do at times.

saturno_v

I would say more...saying something liekthat negate the clear evidence that some people cross-shop them as we TL owners in this forum alone have abundantly demonstrated...

TRIUMPHT

iTrader: (1)

Dude i don't even know why you entertain that guy. People shoot him facts he shoots back personal opinions.

saturno_v

Not only that but Hamma Tyme has clearly said that he would return to Acura if the 5th gen is of his liking....

Hamma is another person which existance is denied by the Teutonic obesessed...their idealized user, once "graduates" to BMW buys only BMW or another German....

TRIUMPHT

iTrader: (1)

People buy what they want. I have a friend who went from a BMW to a NISSAN not because he couldnt afford another BMW but because NISSAN made more sense to him. I cross shopped numerous cars before staying with ACURA and chose ACURA.

I have friends that ony deal wit German Cars i have friends that only deal with Japanese cars. My wifes family is a toyota family so she got a lexus. I've owned mazda,ford,acura,nissan,mitsubishi,hyandai. Drove bmw,mb,lexus. I get what i like and makes sense to me at the time of purchase regardless of what anyone else has to say or how they feel.

I will also stress till this day I have never heard of any complaints about the 4G TL other than on this flipping site.

I only get "nice car" " That car is hot" "That car is sick how much did it cost" "what kind of car is that it's crazy" "is that your car? that's a nice toy". Even my wife at gas stations get "did you just get out of that car? wow tell him that shit is hot" driving down the street & highway people tryna either catch up or slow down to get a good look at the car. Not to mention the girls who pulled up next to me at the light to say "HOT CAR ".

So as far what anyone has to say i do not care because i will stress i hve never heard of any negativity againt the TL until i joined ACURAZINE.

Hamma Tyme

We're cool, bro!

TRIUMPHT

iTrader: (1)

JM2010 SH-AWD

I know you own a G, but have you driven the current or last version 5 series or a 4G TL (especially in SH-AWD form)? I drove all of them when I was shopping in 2010. My rating was TL, G and 5 series. I've found that most people who say the 5 series is "far and away better" than the G and TL have not driven them.

Hamma Tyme

Maybe there are some who are badge happy as there are in any car maker's corner, but the comparison between to 5 and TL is correct because of the size. Let's face it, the comparison with the 3 and TL are too far apart these days. Now as far as the performance of the TL, I will not debate it. In my opinion it's a great car and performs very well, BUT, yes, here is the but. Everyone one of those articles had something negative about the styling or mentioned the "out of the box" styling and or refreshed styling as improved. I know this is a 4G thread, but Acura would be selling alot more cars if they would change the styling to open a wider range of potential buyers.

There are some differences that the upscale shopper wants to see which BMW offers and Acura doesn't which fetches more of a premium.

Remember all of you on this thread are either a 4G owner, 4G wanna own, trolls (Had to throw that one in), and Ex TL owners like myself who still are fans, but couldn't pull the trigger because of....yes, the look.

One thing is true, everyone posting tonight on New Years Eve is a true fan of the TL, and the majority are fans of the 4G. It's understood for every review you find, the styling is mentioned in a not so positive way and I'm sure it insults many here. But its the reality of the cars you chose.

I'll say it again, I like virtually everything about the TL on the inside, it's the outside some of us still have an issue.

Happy New Year to you all and make it a safe one!

g37guy01

If I wanted the 535 I would pick it up over the g or TL in a heartbeat. At the price here is a premium content and drive to that car. I have driven almost every BMW except the m5, m6 and alpina, in all their glorious varieties. Sorry if the TL was that good BMW wouldn't sell any cars. Same for the g.

I'm not debating that you liked the TL better, that's your decision. I don't believe the masses that can afford a 535 and want the car flock en masse to the TL because of value.

g37guy01

Saturno happy new year, this thread is just one opinion anyway. I'm not running out to buy a TL or 535. I bought enough cars this year.

Paul91

My ex gf had an Auto g37x coupe. The 7-speed trans (even without paddle shifters), is 2nd to none when it comes to automatics.

The stereo systems in the Infinitis are heads and shoulders above what acura puts out.

That being said, I do agree with the others with regard to these cars not feeling like they have as much hp as listing. I know a lot of it's lost on it's way to the wheels, but my current 07' TL-S feels every bit as fast, if not faster than the 330+HP G37.

Hamma Tyme

You’re not saying your ex-girlfriend dropped you because your car stereo was, “inadequate” and couldn't put out are you?

Just kidding with you, I couldn’t resist. Happy New Year to you and your new girlfriend!

jjsC5

I've owned and driven several Infinitis and Acuras, including both cars you are referring to. I totally disagree with you. The only Infiniti stereo that is in the same league as the TL - Tech system is the M's optional surround sound (I had one). And even that one I don't consider as good as Acuras, nor do many magazines that rate them.

Also, I can't speak for the "X" G37, but the rear drives I've driven are a lot faster than a TL - and that is also documented by many tests. It' not even close except for the outlier times for the SH-AWD with a manual - and even it's not as fast as a G37.

I don't recall anything remarkable about either of the automatic transmissions - I can't argue that one way or another.

jpd985

To me the 7-speed in the G37X falls in love with 7th gear and is slow to downshift when you get on it. The TL is more downshifts more readily although off the line the Infiniti is definitely faster.

JM2010 SH-AWD

I mostly agree, but the G37 6MT vs. TL 6MT 0-60 numbers are insignificantly different -- 5.1 versus 5.2 if I'm remembering correctly. It would be a driving contest as to which was quicker in the real world. As to "outlier" times for the 6MT TL, I assume you're referring to the significant difference in the TL SH-AWD acceleration times as between the MT and AT, which still is a puzzler, to me at least.

jjsC5

Yes, you and I agree.

Otacon

iTrader: (1)

I can barely understand what you're typing.

sebounet2005

the g37 sound system has a more "boom boom" effect , more bass. It s not a bad system, but the surround system in the TL is better event if it has less bass.

the same goes for the engine, blast power for the g37 and more refined for the TL. for the g37 i always use the DS sport mode , and the rev matching is way above the one on the Tl. because it makes a beautiful sound when downshifting. again the downshift for the g37 was not smooth but fun. TL revmatching is unoticed except is you look the RPM dial

saturno_v

I don't think anybody in its right mind, even in the 4G section of this forum would debate the fact that the current TL styling is very polarizing.....I absolutely love it and it stands out, for me, other hate it...personal taste are personal taste...and yes, probably with a more conventional look the TL would sell more....

saturno_v

I totally agree...if I wanted a particular car I would pick it up in a heartbeat, as I did with my TL....this is valid with any car and brand you like...

The market is big anough to accomodate everybody....BMW, Infiniti and Acura....BMW is extremely successful and does produce very fine cars...

I'm not debating this point either...there are people that pick up the 535 without even looking at anything else, others that will pick the TL without looking at anything else, others will look at both and go either way, others will find the extra coin necessary for the 535 justified, others will find it unjustified and go with the TL (or something else).....people are different...

In my case I like the 535 but I went with the TL first of all because I just like the look of the car (and interiors) better and second because I find the premium price required by the Bimmer excessive....I would have picked the TL even at the same price of the 535.......

I recognize the "right" of the 535 to cost a bit more than the TL because of the little more upscale cabin (which I like less than the TL one in design anyway) and the turbocharged engine and I would find that difference justified (with similar accessory level) at, let's say, no more than 5-8K more than the TL


Happy New Year to you too!!!

compewterbleu

Yeah, you're in the right spot for that, ACURAZINE. It seems to attract haters.

compewterbleu

The new Lexus GS is coming out soon and Motor Trend has yet to slam it...even though they elude to it's questionable grille, ala Lancer. I think the media was pushing the panic button on the styling, sad but true many look to others for approval of what they should or shouldn't like. People over looked the essence and performance of the TL due to the polarizing grille...crazy.

jpd985

I don't have an issue with the exterior of the new GS it is the interior I am not a big fan of. I wasn't a fan of the original grill of the 4g TL but if I loved the car it wouldn't have kept me from buying it.

Paul91

Good one! Truth be told, I left her after she threatened to take a bat to my NSX which was parked in her garage. And yes, I packed up and moved out while she was at work one day.

Paul91

The 7-speed tranny on the g37 'learns' your driving habits for that particular 'moment' if you will, and will downshift according to how aggressive you are driving. It's pretty remarkable, really.

Paul91

Ya, that's why I stated it "feels" faster that the G37. I know that in reality, it is not. The infinitis are definitely faster on paper. As far as the stereo is concerned, we all have our opinions. I suppose it could depend on what type of music you are into. I listen to acid jazz, soulful house, and other things with a deeper beat. The infiniti stereo sound richer, more powerful, and doesn't rattle all over the place like some Acuras tend to. The loaner 2012 TL Tech I drove last week isn't even close in the stereo department as a 09' G37., or even my friends 2007 G35.

Paul91

Well stated

FishMeetFish

I don't have problem with my G37x going 40+ MPH. In fact, it is always a pleasure accelerating from 40+ mph to 80+ mph. Instant response at that range and I'm at 80+ mph before I know it.

The problem with my G is stop and go traffic. It try to be smart and try to predict which gear I intent to go, but stop and go traffic is really not 100% predictable, so it is sometimes in the wrong gear. The car will lag in certain slow traffic conditions.

cp3117

This is the thing Saturno cant seem to grasp is that the majority of the public that shop this segment dont compare the two. It doesnt mean someone wont cross-shop them on rare occasion but the majority dont.

Ive seen on some Ford forums where people have cross shopped a Taurus SHO to a 7 series etc, both have similar performance, size and Taurus even has some similar luxury features that even Acura doesnt offer. This doesnt mean though that the Taurus is now a 7 series competitor. Using Saturno's logic we could now pull sales numbers for the Taurus model and show how its killing the 7 Series in sales.

This is why this sales graph he always shows is very misleading. The author of the graph has many other vehicles that arent mid-size in there and he's missing some others like Buick (that you mentioned earlier) are also not on the list, but Saturno conviently just blows it off that Buick doesnt qualify even though the rest of the industry would disagree with him. It's clearly the authors opinion of what he thinks should be in there. The only factual thing in the graph is X brand model and its sales for that month. The majority of TL sales in that graph are obviously the FWD version and the majority of the 5 series will be the 528i/535i. The FWD version of the TL is more commonly shopped with mainstream/premium brands ie:Maxima, Lacrosse etc. Anyone can now start to see just how small the percentage of people there are that cross shop the two models. The RL's sales numbers are much closer and show how close (or not close) the two models are cross shopped.

This also brings up the Acura TL marketing material that is posted in red by him when these topics appear. (wish i would have never showed him that link now). Saturno always posts that and insinuates that the TL moved up into the 5 series etc competition because of their marketing material. If he ever did his research he would see that Acura has tried marketing the TL towards vehicles like the 5 series (secondary to obviously the 3 series) ever since the mid 90's when the TL first came out. This was due to the 3 series being classified as a Subcompact and the 5 Series a compact vehicle back then. The TL became a midsize vehicle when the 2G was introduced back in 1999. So the 4G didnt magically move up like he tries to make it sound. Its just someone falling again for the increase in exterior dimentions.

If you actually look at Acura's marketing material for the RL it specifically points out the market it competes with is the 535i, A6 3.0T etc etc, but for some reason thats always conveniently left out.....as you mentioned earlier, its easy to Cherry pick stats, but its also just as easy to manipulate them.

cp3117

I like how you have your tap dancing shoes on now and your trying to split hairs. If you want to really do that the 4G TL is only .7 Cubic feet (total volume) from being classified as a compact car.....both the G and TL are VERY close and at the very small/low end of the mid-size class.

The point i was making is that the 4G TL and the G sedan are both classified as mid size cars, both have are in the same luxury/premium class and both have similar performance numbers with both vehicles having very small +/- in all those segments.

Yet, you and winstrol always make comments in these G vs TL threads that people "dont mind giving up a little performance to get the much larger and roomier TL" or " The TL has moved up and is more in the class of the 5 series, A6 etc and isnt really comparable to the G".

Please tell us why the 4G TL is so Magical that even though they are very close to each other and in the same class as the TL, it's so much better. If its just your own personal bias thats fine, or is it lack of knowledge or both??

winstrolvtec

It's actually neither and we might question you on a lack of knowledge or bias (anti sentiment included) as well, because if you know the cars on a personal basis or really know and understand all cars as an enthusiast, including how well all of the cars relate to each other in both classes and not overly focus only on how the two measure on paper or compare in magazines, you would better understand what is being said or implied and this wouldn't even be a discussion IMO.

To be clear, no one is saying anything about being "better", as that is a personal choice and is very subjective and no one is saying that the TL being a 5 competitor, or that drawing the comparison, has to be perfect, only that it is warranted. However, I do agree that the majority are not cross shopping the two or that the TL comes to mind when someone says 5 series and there are other cars that also should be mentioned along side the 5 series (etc) as well, that much like the TL, are not the direct competitor but a mention or comparison is warranted by the same definition. All of those cars make a case that they can be compared to the 5 class in some capacity, the G included based on what is on paper but then you also need to look beyond that.

It's a lot like the VW CC, LaCrosse, Genesis and Maxima, that technically don't fall under a luxury makes but we still classify them as luxury vehicles because we look at the entire picture, not one element. Much like the point about the TL, we don't consider these cars to be a performance equivalent to a 3 series, G, etc or that they are even trying to be that or that it is a level playing field to compare on the basis of performance overall. It's obvious they have different priorities and purposes. I guess a counter question by the reverse logic would be; regardless of price and perceived luxury, would you call it suffice to class larger, heavier, mid size FWD and/or AWD vehicles (not only the TL) to a class/market that is predominantly made up of RWD compacts?

Going further, technically the CC and ES are not mid sized vehicles but we know they do not appropriately align with a G sedan or 3 series compact. Brands sometimes have models operate "in between the lines" of size ranks to either achieve what appears to be a more spacious compact or a smaller mid (for example), which is nearly the same thing and can go either way.

Sometimes it's to reduce weight for what is intended to be a sporty mid (etc) and other times it's to utilize or cut out more space to create a more spacious car or compact, in this case. What's worse, is that manufacturers often have their own measurements for what their car actually is intended to be and how it actually measures out but then the EPA deems it something else based on their system instead.

When it comes to the smallest of margins that determines what is technically this or that size, or is right around the line, there is a grey area. That's why you should take much more than that into consideration regardless of your position on the matter, which those of us already have. It's difficult to explain but easy to grasp once it's understood.

It's true that the TL is not that far away from being a compact by size but it's no worse in this regard than an E class or GS, and the A6 is not too far behind, even worse is the G in using your example, so that alone doesn't mean much. Looking at exterior and interior dimensions, space, power, performance, weight, drive-trains, position, market and intention, build, character and demeanor, even relation to other models under the brand and outside of the brand, as well as the all too popular price and (perceived) level of luxury, you can make the case for what cars go with what cars and it is not going to be so black and white and some of it is going to be a matter of opinion too but it does cover much more than just a criteria based on one or two things and it has almost nothing to do with what is or isn't highly cross shopped. That is different and there are many other factors that come into play, most of which having nothing to do with the actual car(s).

I will refer to these aspects as the car "in spirit" as I have heard used by a member of the automotive journalist world and helps sum all of those areas up. Despite the G being a little more than a compact, technically a mid or the CC being a tiny bit smaller than a mid, technically a compact, in spirit the G is the ideal 3 series competitor or car for that market while the CC is not, it's more of a very sport intended mid size sedan, hence the four door sports car label, lack of middle seat, reduced space, but nonetheless, it still has a different demeanor, purpose, market, exterior size, interior dimensions, drive-train availabilities, market aim, etc. It would be inappropriate IMO to group or class that car there based on all of those accounts. I think many would agree and would bet money that they do. That's why it is more important to consider much more than the amount of space the car has on paper and according to only the EPA, as well as only the price points and perceived level of luxury, since that is too vague.

If the CC was supposed to be a true compact/3 series or 3 series market competitor, than there would be no need to make it in the first place. That is what the A4 is for in large part. The same is true for the Maxima, if it is supposed to be in the G class, why do they even bother to make it? They already have the G sedan. The FWD TL falls into that situation as well, since they do have the TSX even if it is not a true 3 series or 3 series market competitor in itself.

This very concept is exactly what we are talking about. I used other cars of similar scenarios because it seems there is some anti TL sentiment attached to these discussions and responses when it is the concept we are speaking of that is of the most importance and not the actual car.

Now that doesn't automatically make them true competitors to the mid level class but that doesn't mean we inappropriately force the cars into other markets or make it compete against cars that they don't align with either. It's fine to say they are all entry level vehicles which is mostly a basis of price and luxury but that does not mean there are not further distinctions to be made or that cross shopping has much to do with that part of it.

Most of us don’t really have an issue with comparing a TL to a G or 3 series, etc, it’s just that most cherry pick the comparison with several hundred lbs lighter RWD trims and incompatible transmissions (not just MT vs. MT or AT vs. AT). What the car is and what it chooses to offer are different things, meaning Acura does not offer a lighter RWD trim for the TL but that shouldn’t mean you take away from the FWD or SH version. It does well against the FWD and/or AWD competitors of the compact or mid size variety, the same but consideration should be given to key differences.

To use another example having nothing to do with the TL, and to even highlight the very different make up of cars that are considered to be of the same exact class, I don’t effectively compare a WRX to a Jetta on the same basis of performance, it’s not appropriate just because they are both compacts and have overlapping price points, not saying you cannot actually do so but if I want a performance AWD vehicle, I don’t much consider the practical FWD Jetta, not because it’s a bad car or doesn’t compete favorably for what it is, among other cars that are more similar (Civic), it’s just not for me or what I am looking for. There is a difference, and there are countless of these examples all over the markets, it has little to do with the fact that the TL is a car I own.

Like I was saying, the FWD TL is best compared to other FWD luxury mid size sedans or those close enough to it. When it comes to the TL SH, this trim has a very different essence even though it is the same model car. It is often mentioned alongside the 5 class of cars specifically because they barely differentiate FWD luxury mid size cars and those that fit that make up or market, so no one really knows what to do with these types of vehicles as they are very few in number and do actually resemble mid level cars “in spirit” and also by much of the criteria mentioned above.

The CTS would be another, perhaps the CC VR6, and the LaCrosse CXL AWD, the Genesis probably should be mentioned in here as well. For the fact that the G is technically a mid size would present a case by itself but it does seem to end there, so for myself, I exclude it as explained above but also because Infiniti clearly takes a more direct aim at the 3 series than anyone else (it‘s role is much more defined which is a good thing for them, a problem for Acura), it’s a borderline mid/compact and operates in that grey area being the smallest mid possible that honestly doesn‘t measure up to other mids in person like it does on paper for whatever reason(s), the coupe/convertible is a compact, there is no vehicle positioned below it, it has a cheaper entry point and 4 cyl that the TL does not (positioning, TSX), and it doesn’t have as much in common with the next one up M as the TL does with the next one up RL.

I think all of the other cars make as strong of a case to be mentioned next to the mid level class of cars as the TL does, a lot of it for the same reasons but bottom-line, they do not have the essence or spirit of what makes a traditional luxury compact or what really defines that market or cars that fit there. They have more in common with the mid levels or mid level market than the compact or compact/3 series market.

Which of these cars has more or less in common with the mid level market really depends on what one chooses to look at. The TL does however have some unique criteria even compared to the others here, that perhaps helps solidify why it makes this cut (as opposed to what the naysayers simply deem as owners’ personal bias) which might help explain why the others not listed here probably don't.

The TL (SH) is positioned and marketed exactly this way both inside and outside of Acura. Acura is recognized as a luxury brand and the TL is a properly proportioned mid size sedan both inside and outside, resembling other luxury mids (a bit on the bigger side outside though). It is built directly off of the RL, which one might say is an RL built to a cheaper price point or a lesser trim like a 528, etc, and it goes without saying that the RL is considered a true mid level vehicle. Acura positions the TSX below the TL and the RL above it. Acura chooses to use different models as opposed to various trim levels but shouldn’t be as confusing to people as it is. Like the CTS, the plan is for this car to be the brand's vehicle for that specific market eventually and the automotive world has taken notice of the similarities and has made the comparison themselves and for the reasons many of us have even before they did.

Again, some of it will be subjective and a matter of opinion so I don't expect everyone to agree on this entirely or to draw the same exact conclusions based on the info but what some of us don't like is being considered crazy or not knowing enough of what we are talking about, as if it is some hidden agenda based on bias and personal ownership, when many of us may have given this way more consideration than anyone who is suggesting otherwise. Some of us might actually know these cars better than others think they do, especially the TL. At least we can say we were in the market and considered all of these cars.

I don’t think anyone has an issue discussing specifics on any of these points but I know I don't like my intelligence being insulted that I am insinuating that the TL is a true 5 series competitor or everything the 5 series is on all levels for less, when none of that has ever been suggested or for any other reasons. I don't like people suggesting we are incorrect when it is fact that the TL is considered a mid size luxury vehicle and that it is pretty obvious that the TL is included in a select group of cars that are the next best thing to be considered direct competitors to the mid level luxury class of sedans. If we can keep the absolute nonsense out of it, a very intelligent, thorough discussion can always be had. The issue is not in disagreeing, it’s how we disagree.

winstrolvtec

**edit**

jiiglesia69

I went from a 2007 G35X to a 2012 TL SH-AWD Advance. I do admit the TL has more leg and interior than the G. Each car has it ups and downs, pros and cons. I do miss the more organized and less button hungry console of the infiniti vs. my current acura. The G37x does have more hp but both rides are close in terms of torque. For me, i got a better offer and went with the TL. FYI you will miss the automatic tilting steering and telescoping wheel found on the G's. Happy hunting!!!

jpd985

Out of all the cars I looked at only the G37x and the IS350 and the automatic steering wheel adjustment. On a luxury car that should be common.

g37guy01

I've driven the 535, 550, 535 wagon. They have a really, really nice road feel to them, which BMW is known for. But it doesn't really matter what I personally think of the way they drive. Sales figures are telling.

In my opinion, in an absolute sense the 535 and 550 are far better cars then the G and TL.

AEmedic

iTrader: (1)

As long as they are under warranty...

g37guy01

Agreed and that's fine with me. All of these cars break at some point, some sooner than others.

JM2010 SH-AWD

And the TL?

Hamma Tyme

He said, "My Opinion".