Maybe Leaving Acura for Infiniti
12-27-2011, 05:13 PM
#161
Instructor
The tsunami is an unfortunate part of the 2011 history books. Not only were cars impacted, but virtually all segements of any industry that depending on the production of circuits and products originating from Japan. The price of my camera lenses went up dramatically in 2011. I passed on the es350 wondering what 2012 would bring.
You are right, this site is data aggregators. They classify them one way by size, I usually look at cars by segment. The 3 series eclipses the segment so it's a fact that not everybody cares about bus like space in the back seat. I myself need it to be just enough.
You are right, this site is data aggregators. They classify them one way by size, I usually look at cars by segment. The 3 series eclipses the segment so it's a fact that not everybody cares about bus like space in the back seat. I myself need it to be just enough.
Many return buyers and new prospects were holding off waiting for the new model to arrive on US shores. So the comparison chart for 2010 would not truly reflect a model which was a little long in the tooth and the new model being made available into the middle/end of the 2nd quarter of 2010.
12-27-2011, 06:50 PM
#162
Burning Brakes
It is my guess, the "most people" don't head out to their number one pick and buy the number pick without some amount of cross-shopping. I know I didn't.
I didn't cross-shop every manufacturer, but I cross-shopped enough of them to know what I wanted and what I didn't want in my next vehicle.
The fact the 3 series keeps getting mentioned in this thread is proof enough for me that the TL, 335 and others are cross-shopped..even though one has a bigger back-seat than the other.
12-27-2011, 06:51 PM
#163
Burning Brakes
Another thing to keep in consideration is the 2010 E60 5 series was phased out for ordering by the end of Feb and the new 2011 F10 5 Series was not delivered to the US till about April/May if I remember correctly.
Many return buyers and new prospects were holding off waiting for the new model to arrive on US shores. So the comparison chart for 2010 would not truly reflect a model which was a little long in the tooth and the new model being made available into the middle/end of the 2nd quarter of 2010.
Many return buyers and new prospects were holding off waiting for the new model to arrive on US shores. So the comparison chart for 2010 would not truly reflect a model which was a little long in the tooth and the new model being made available into the middle/end of the 2nd quarter of 2010.
12-27-2011, 07:26 PM
#164
Another thing to keep in consideration is the 2010 E60 5 series was phased out for ordering by the end of Feb and the new 2011 F10 5 Series was not delivered to the US till about April/May if I remember correctly.
Many return buyers and new prospects were holding off waiting for the new model to arrive on US shores. So the comparison chart for 2010 would not truly reflect a model which was a little long in the tooth and the new model being made available into the middle/end of the 2nd quarter of 2010.
Many return buyers and new prospects were holding off waiting for the new model to arrive on US shores. So the comparison chart for 2010 would not truly reflect a model which was a little long in the tooth and the new model being made available into the middle/end of the 2nd quarter of 2010.
Last edited by saturno_v; 12-27-2011 at 07:34 PM.
12-27-2011, 07:36 PM
#165
Actually, nobody knows how "people" cross-shop these vehicles. You might know the buying pattern of your friends and family and I know the buying pattern of my friends and family. When it comes to generalizing how "people" shop you cannot make a sweeping generalization.
The fact the 3 series keeps getting mentioned in this thread is proof enough for me that the TL, 335 and others are cross-shopped..even though one has a bigger back-seat than the other.
12-27-2011, 07:59 PM
#166
Instructor
I posted the March 2011 sales stats (F10 well established) with the TL selling 3995 units VS a bit more than 4400 for the BMW F10...outgoing models (especially the successful ones) are not necessarily slow sellers actually aften quite the contrary...the outgoing 3 Series is going gangbuster (huge discounts and incentives), same for the jus arrived models that often have a "flare up" period initially.
12-27-2011, 07:59 PM
#167
Burning Brakes
Absolutely right...this is the reason I refuse some people pontification (including magazines) like "Whoever buy brand X will never consider brand Y"...reality is, nowbody knows....
The 3 Series does get cross shopped with the TL, nobody argue with that..I did it myself but I quickly dismissed.....but it is not the only one.....
The 3 Series does get cross shopped with the TL, nobody argue with that..I did it myself but I quickly dismissed.....but it is not the only one.....
12-27-2011, 08:31 PM
#168
Three Wheelin'
This past year he bought a Challenger SRT8, kept it a few weeks and traded it back for a new -2010 Viper (which he has owned a number of). Then he sold the Viper. Now he's trying to decide on a ZL1 Camaro or Mustang Shelby GT for his "fun" car. I've seen him go through all sorts of wild changes that would not make sense to most people.
12-27-2011, 08:41 PM
#169
Burning Brakes
Probably a lot of truth to that, even though I suspect that there are some general guidelines for cross shopping that are prevalent. I have a close friend who buys more cars than I do (I've had 57). Right now he is on a list for a M-B CLS63 that will list for over $100k. He plans to lease the car. But he told me the other day that if the lease residual or money factor changes much Jan 1 he might buy a Dodge Charger SRT-8 instead - that lists for half of what the CLS does.
This past year he bought a Challenger SRT8, kept it a few weeks and traded it back for a new -2010 Viper (which he has owned a number of). Then he sold the Viper. Now he's trying to decide on a ZL1 Camaro or Mustang Shelby GT for his "fun" car. I've seen him go through all sorts of wild changes that would not make sense to most people.
This past year he bought a Challenger SRT8, kept it a few weeks and traded it back for a new -2010 Viper (which he has owned a number of). Then he sold the Viper. Now he's trying to decide on a ZL1 Camaro or Mustang Shelby GT for his "fun" car. I've seen him go through all sorts of wild changes that would not make sense to most people.
The jist I get from this forum is people who are looking for the best bang for their buck, whatever is defined as bang for the buck, which varies from one person to another.
12-28-2011, 12:32 AM
#170
Heavily cross shopped is one thing and best categorically grouped (or something to that effect) is another. Before the SH model the TL has always been FWD and the volume model is still the FWD so what you really have is predominantly an entry FWD mid size sedan much like a Maxima, ES, LaCrosse, etc. Those are and will continue to be the direct competitors that you would align and most appropriately compare the FWD with.
Naturally, there will always be some deviation based on other criteria like price points and luxury position, etc or much broader based comparisons but that doesn't mean it's a level playing field to start comparing other things like performance and sport demeanor or size, space, and comfort when you are talking about substantial differences like RWD compacts vs FWD mid sized, clearly these cars cater to totally different priorities. That's just common sense and should be obvious enough to any auto enthusiast, and that's not just 3 series or TL owner talk.
The SH model doesn't change much of that. While it might be a better comparison to RWD vehicles than the FWD trim is, that doesn't change the point that comparing a 335 to a TL SH in terms of an overall performance based comparison is like comparing a 335 to a 535. You can do it but what is the point? Or when it's done and the 3 is considered better in that regard what is that supposed to mean? That's also why I really don't understand what some of those posting here are driving at when it comes to comparing the TL to some of these cars.
I know the TL does not compete with a 5 in terms of refinement and feature and engine availabilities as a whole, so therefore price points are a bit off base as well but those things have nothing to do with a performance comparison between an SH and 535. Those things come down to size, space, power, weight, and drivetrain similarities, etc. What separates them has little to do with the performance and engineering make up.
No one is taking away from what a G or 3 series, etc does well, they are more sport oriented, in most cases are faster straight-line vehicles and do handle at the same level as the TL SH or vice versa depending on how you want to word it but to TL owners that is well known and is expected considering the differences in vehicle type and make up. Honestly, for a compact and having everything/more going for it as a pure sports car, I know I am a little disappointed by most of these cars in comparison, especially for some of the pricing which easily gets into well equipped "next one up" territory. Regardless, whatever edge they may have, those are not the main selling points for many of us and that is why we chose against them, and in many cases, it has little to do with affordability.
The contrasting aspects and highlighted qualities of both types are equally good IMO but unless you can truly afford the expense of getting both combined into one package, you need to pick one set that presides over the other and that is entirely preference and need based, where there is no real right or wrong when it comes down to that.
I believe that the majority of TL owners were actually looking for a mid size to begin with or arrived at the decision that they wanted a mid size during their cross shopping. So then you are comparing to other FWD mid size luxury sedans and in the case of the SH, other AWD mid size luxury sedans as well. It might be true that many folks who regularly buy 5 series and A6 products (etc) probably don't shop down but many looking at the TL mid size offerings will shop up. That is the key difference and is not the same as not being cross shopped at all. I'm sure the TL gets more consideration than these folks would like to admit but they would be foolish not to just as it would be foolish to not consider anything below a TL as a TL shopper/owner.
I know many here would not go for a TL over a RWD compact for the obvious performance related reasons but if you hypothetically decided beforehand on no compacts or RWD but still favored a sports oriented vehicle and performance but wanted to stay in an entry level price range or were just looking for what presented a good overall value in that context, the TL would likely be high on the list (styling controversy aside) as it is one of the more sports oriented FWD and AWD mid size luxury sedans, especially the 6MT.
So those who favor RWD compacts and coupes are not a whole lot different than most TL owners, our starting points and level of tolerance to certain key differences are just not the same. Don't equate Acura not offering a competent compact competitor to the TL being somehow inferior to cars it really only gets cross shopped with because of price and luxury position, both having nothing to actually do with the cars themselves or how they compare/relate.
Naturally, there will always be some deviation based on other criteria like price points and luxury position, etc or much broader based comparisons but that doesn't mean it's a level playing field to start comparing other things like performance and sport demeanor or size, space, and comfort when you are talking about substantial differences like RWD compacts vs FWD mid sized, clearly these cars cater to totally different priorities. That's just common sense and should be obvious enough to any auto enthusiast, and that's not just 3 series or TL owner talk.
The SH model doesn't change much of that. While it might be a better comparison to RWD vehicles than the FWD trim is, that doesn't change the point that comparing a 335 to a TL SH in terms of an overall performance based comparison is like comparing a 335 to a 535. You can do it but what is the point? Or when it's done and the 3 is considered better in that regard what is that supposed to mean? That's also why I really don't understand what some of those posting here are driving at when it comes to comparing the TL to some of these cars.
I know the TL does not compete with a 5 in terms of refinement and feature and engine availabilities as a whole, so therefore price points are a bit off base as well but those things have nothing to do with a performance comparison between an SH and 535. Those things come down to size, space, power, weight, and drivetrain similarities, etc. What separates them has little to do with the performance and engineering make up.
No one is taking away from what a G or 3 series, etc does well, they are more sport oriented, in most cases are faster straight-line vehicles and do handle at the same level as the TL SH or vice versa depending on how you want to word it but to TL owners that is well known and is expected considering the differences in vehicle type and make up. Honestly, for a compact and having everything/more going for it as a pure sports car, I know I am a little disappointed by most of these cars in comparison, especially for some of the pricing which easily gets into well equipped "next one up" territory. Regardless, whatever edge they may have, those are not the main selling points for many of us and that is why we chose against them, and in many cases, it has little to do with affordability.
The contrasting aspects and highlighted qualities of both types are equally good IMO but unless you can truly afford the expense of getting both combined into one package, you need to pick one set that presides over the other and that is entirely preference and need based, where there is no real right or wrong when it comes down to that.
I believe that the majority of TL owners were actually looking for a mid size to begin with or arrived at the decision that they wanted a mid size during their cross shopping. So then you are comparing to other FWD mid size luxury sedans and in the case of the SH, other AWD mid size luxury sedans as well. It might be true that many folks who regularly buy 5 series and A6 products (etc) probably don't shop down but many looking at the TL mid size offerings will shop up. That is the key difference and is not the same as not being cross shopped at all. I'm sure the TL gets more consideration than these folks would like to admit but they would be foolish not to just as it would be foolish to not consider anything below a TL as a TL shopper/owner.
I know many here would not go for a TL over a RWD compact for the obvious performance related reasons but if you hypothetically decided beforehand on no compacts or RWD but still favored a sports oriented vehicle and performance but wanted to stay in an entry level price range or were just looking for what presented a good overall value in that context, the TL would likely be high on the list (styling controversy aside) as it is one of the more sports oriented FWD and AWD mid size luxury sedans, especially the 6MT.
So those who favor RWD compacts and coupes are not a whole lot different than most TL owners, our starting points and level of tolerance to certain key differences are just not the same. Don't equate Acura not offering a competent compact competitor to the TL being somehow inferior to cars it really only gets cross shopped with because of price and luxury position, both having nothing to actually do with the cars themselves or how they compare/relate.
12-28-2011, 07:10 AM
#171
Three Wheelin'
This conversation clearly isn't relavent to the wealthy individual(assuming there are still those who have disposable cash in this economy and are looking for preservation of capital) who can afford to buy and sell a $100K+ car every week and who might have a space in their 20 car garage for an STI as well as a Bugatti.
The jist I get from this forum is people who are looking for the best bang for their buck, whatever is defined as bang for the buck, which varies from one person to another.
The jist I get from this forum is people who are looking for the best bang for their buck, whatever is defined as bang for the buck, which varies from one person to another.
My friend obviously is not poor, but he's not nearly as wealthy as it may seem. He's just very good at buying and selling cars. He has been doing it as long as I've known him, and he probably made no more money than the average member of this forum. In fact, for two years his only car was a 2004 Acura TL.
12-28-2011, 07:37 AM
#172
Suzuka Master
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I think what cause a lot of the cross brand push & shove on the forums is corporate marketing strategies. When the 5G was announced as the most powerful Acura yet the marketing specifically targeted BMW MB etc. by name. The current Infiniti commercial series features shots of the 3 series as much it does the G-37.
On the other hand BMW marketing talks about BMW as MB talks about MB as Jaguar talks about Jaguar etc. They never as far as I can remember mention another brand in their commercials.
On the other hand BMW marketing talks about BMW as MB talks about MB as Jaguar talks about Jaguar etc. They never as far as I can remember mention another brand in their commercials.
12-28-2011, 08:28 AM
#175
Burning Brakes
Heavily cross shopped is one thing and best categorically grouped (or something to that effect) is another. Before the SH model the TL has always been FWD and the volume model is still the FWD so what you really have is predominantly an entry FWD mid size sedan much like a Maxima, ES, LaCrosse, etc. Those are and will continue to be the direct competitors that you would align and most appropriately compare the FWD with.
Naturally, there will always be some deviation based on other criteria like price points and luxury position, etc or much broader based comparisons but that doesn't mean it's a level playing field to start comparing other things like performance and sport demeanor or size, space, and comfort when you are talking about substantial differences like RWD compacts vs FWD mid sized, clearly these cars cater to totally different priorities. That's just common sense and should be obvious enough to any auto enthusiast, and that's not just 3 series or TL owner talk.
The SH model doesn't change much of that. While it might be a better comparison to RWD vehicles than the FWD trim is, that doesn't change the point that comparing a 335 to a TL SH in terms of an overall performance based comparison is like comparing a 335 to a 535. You can do it but what is the point? Or when it's done and the 3 is considered better in that regard what is that supposed to mean? That's also why I really don't understand what some of those posting here are driving at when it comes to comparing the TL to some of these cars.
I know the TL does not compete with a 5 in terms of refinement and feature and engine availabilities as a whole, so therefore price points are a bit off base as well but those things have nothing to do with a performance comparison between an SH and 535. Those things come down to size, space, power, weight, and drivetrain similarities, etc. What separates them has little to do with the performance and engineering make up.
No one is taking away from what a G or 3 series, etc does well, they are more sport oriented, in most cases are faster straight-line vehicles and do handle at the same level as the TL SH or vice versa depending on how you want to word it but to TL owners that is well known and is expected considering the differences in vehicle type and make up. Honestly, for a compact and having everything/more going for it as a pure sports car, I know I am a little disappointed by most of these cars in comparison, especially for some of the pricing which easily gets into well equipped "next one up" territory. Regardless, whatever edge they may have, those are not the main selling points for many of us and that is why we chose against them, and in many cases, it has little to do with affordability.
The contrasting aspects and highlighted qualities of both types are equally good IMO but unless you can truly afford the expense of getting both combined into one package, you need to pick one set that presides over the other and that is entirely preference and need based, where there is no real right or wrong when it comes down to that.
I believe that the majority of TL owners were actually looking for a mid size to begin with or arrived at the decision that they wanted a mid size during their cross shopping. So then you are comparing to other FWD mid size luxury sedans and in the case of the SH, other AWD mid size luxury sedans as well. It might be true that many folks who regularly buy 5 series and A6 products (etc) probably don't shop down but many looking at the TL mid size offerings will shop up. That is the key difference and is not the same as not being cross shopped at all. I'm sure the TL gets more consideration than these folks would like to admit but they would be foolish not to just as it would be foolish to not consider anything below a TL as a TL shopper/owner.
I know many here would not go for a TL over a RWD compact for the obvious performance related reasons but if you hypothetically decided beforehand on no compacts or RWD but still favored a sports oriented vehicle and performance but wanted to stay in an entry level price range or were just looking for what presented a good overall value in that context, the TL would likely be high on the list (styling controversy aside) as it is one of the more sports oriented FWD and AWD mid size luxury sedans, especially the 6MT.
So those who favor RWD compacts and coupes are not a whole lot different than most TL owners, our starting points and level of tolerance to certain key differences are just not the same. Don't equate Acura not offering a competent compact competitor to the TL being somehow inferior to cars it really only gets cross shopped with because of price and luxury position, both having nothing to actually do with the cars themselves or how they compare/relate.
Naturally, there will always be some deviation based on other criteria like price points and luxury position, etc or much broader based comparisons but that doesn't mean it's a level playing field to start comparing other things like performance and sport demeanor or size, space, and comfort when you are talking about substantial differences like RWD compacts vs FWD mid sized, clearly these cars cater to totally different priorities. That's just common sense and should be obvious enough to any auto enthusiast, and that's not just 3 series or TL owner talk.
The SH model doesn't change much of that. While it might be a better comparison to RWD vehicles than the FWD trim is, that doesn't change the point that comparing a 335 to a TL SH in terms of an overall performance based comparison is like comparing a 335 to a 535. You can do it but what is the point? Or when it's done and the 3 is considered better in that regard what is that supposed to mean? That's also why I really don't understand what some of those posting here are driving at when it comes to comparing the TL to some of these cars.
I know the TL does not compete with a 5 in terms of refinement and feature and engine availabilities as a whole, so therefore price points are a bit off base as well but those things have nothing to do with a performance comparison between an SH and 535. Those things come down to size, space, power, weight, and drivetrain similarities, etc. What separates them has little to do with the performance and engineering make up.
No one is taking away from what a G or 3 series, etc does well, they are more sport oriented, in most cases are faster straight-line vehicles and do handle at the same level as the TL SH or vice versa depending on how you want to word it but to TL owners that is well known and is expected considering the differences in vehicle type and make up. Honestly, for a compact and having everything/more going for it as a pure sports car, I know I am a little disappointed by most of these cars in comparison, especially for some of the pricing which easily gets into well equipped "next one up" territory. Regardless, whatever edge they may have, those are not the main selling points for many of us and that is why we chose against them, and in many cases, it has little to do with affordability.
The contrasting aspects and highlighted qualities of both types are equally good IMO but unless you can truly afford the expense of getting both combined into one package, you need to pick one set that presides over the other and that is entirely preference and need based, where there is no real right or wrong when it comes down to that.
I believe that the majority of TL owners were actually looking for a mid size to begin with or arrived at the decision that they wanted a mid size during their cross shopping. So then you are comparing to other FWD mid size luxury sedans and in the case of the SH, other AWD mid size luxury sedans as well. It might be true that many folks who regularly buy 5 series and A6 products (etc) probably don't shop down but many looking at the TL mid size offerings will shop up. That is the key difference and is not the same as not being cross shopped at all. I'm sure the TL gets more consideration than these folks would like to admit but they would be foolish not to just as it would be foolish to not consider anything below a TL as a TL shopper/owner.
I know many here would not go for a TL over a RWD compact for the obvious performance related reasons but if you hypothetically decided beforehand on no compacts or RWD but still favored a sports oriented vehicle and performance but wanted to stay in an entry level price range or were just looking for what presented a good overall value in that context, the TL would likely be high on the list (styling controversy aside) as it is one of the more sports oriented FWD and AWD mid size luxury sedans, especially the 6MT.
So those who favor RWD compacts and coupes are not a whole lot different than most TL owners, our starting points and level of tolerance to certain key differences are just not the same. Don't equate Acura not offering a competent compact competitor to the TL being somehow inferior to cars it really only gets cross shopped with because of price and luxury position, both having nothing to actually do with the cars themselves or how they compare/relate.
When I cross shop I do it by price. If I'm going to spend x dollars on a vehicle I like to see what my x dollars buys. This means I could potentially look at a high-end Grand Cherokee alongside a 335 as my first choice as long I don't have a specific need, like a trailer hitch or 9 seats.
As one of the posters said, people shop and buy for thier own reasons and trying to extend your logic onto someone else will never work.
12-28-2011, 12:18 PM
#176
Suzuka Master
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My thought is people look to see how much they can afford as a prime criteria up to a certain level maybe $60K MSRP. That’s an estimate based on a top of the line Pick-up or US SUV can list for $50K+ which can/is bought by a regular Joe. Once you get over that you are getting to income levels that can afford $70/80+ MSRP they pretty much buy what ever they want & it moves toward perceived prestige, style, name plate recognition, whatever. All intangibles.
There is another thread running Audi vs. TL where one of the posters asks what do you get for the extra $20,000. I don’t think that question ever crosses the mind of the person who is buying the Audi.
There is another thread running Audi vs. TL where one of the posters asks what do you get for the extra $20,000. I don’t think that question ever crosses the mind of the person who is buying the Audi.
12-28-2011, 12:25 PM
#177
Audi seems to sell well with entry level luxury cars (A4 and Q5 mainly), they fall quickly under the radar when you pass that threshold
Audi "prestige" is not on par with BMW and Mercedes, no amount of market gimmick is going to change that for some time....
12-28-2011, 01:10 PM
#178
Three Wheelin'
My thought is people look to see how much they can afford as a prime criteria up to a certain level maybe $60K MSRP. That’s an estimate based on a top of the line Pick-up or US SUV can list for $50K+ which can/is bought by a regular Joe. Once you get over that you are getting to income levels that can afford $70/80+ MSRP they pretty much buy what ever they want & it moves toward perceived prestige, style, name plate recognition, whatever. All intangibles.
There is another thread running Audi vs. TL where one of the posters asks what do you get for the extra $20,000. I don’t think that question ever crosses the mind of the person who is buying the Audi.
There is another thread running Audi vs. TL where one of the posters asks what do you get for the extra $20,000. I don’t think that question ever crosses the mind of the person who is buying the Audi.
I have goals for my retirement, and I have a wife I have to make compromises with. Beyond that I balance what I spend on cars with other things I want in life. Buying a $100,000 car instead of an $80,000 car for me would either cause me to not have other things I want, or to not meet my retirement goals. I know quite a few other people who are like me in that respect.
BTW, a lot of people confuse being able to afford something with how much they have to spend. I could buy a hell of a nice Ferrari brand new and pay cash for it. But that doesn't mean I can afford it. I could do it without compromising my lifestyle now, but things would go the hell in a hurry when (and if) I reach 70+ years old and I realize that I missed what I would need to retire in the manner in which I've become accustomed to.
12-28-2011, 01:13 PM
#179
Three Wheelin'
Well whatever you get tfor that extra 20K prestige or name recognition is not among them...in that department Audi lags significantly behind BMW and Mercedes....many people still consider them dressed up Volkswagens, there is still that perception among some of the public....
Audi seems to sell well with entry level luxury cars (A4 and Q5 mainly), they fall quickly under the radar when you pass that threshold
Audi "prestige" is not on par with BMW and Mercedes, no amount of market gimmick is going to change that for some time....
Audi seems to sell well with entry level luxury cars (A4 and Q5 mainly), they fall quickly under the radar when you pass that threshold
Audi "prestige" is not on par with BMW and Mercedes, no amount of market gimmick is going to change that for some time....
12-28-2011, 01:13 PM
#180
Drifting
I understand your logic but really don't agree that just because someone can afford a $70-80k car that they can afford whatever they want. I have an $80,000 Corvette that is my third car, but I promise you I can't afford whatever I want.
I have goals for my retirement, and I have a wife I have to make compromises with. Beyond that I balance what I spend on cars with other things I want in life. Buying a $100,000 car instead of an $80,000 car for me would either cause me to not have other things I want, or to not meet my retirement goals. I know quite a few other people who are like me in that respect.
BTW, a lot of people confuse being able to afford something with how much they have to spend. I could buy a hell of a nice Ferrari brand new and pay cash for it. But that doesn't mean I can afford it. I could do it without compromising my lifestyle now, but things would go the hell in a hurry when (and if) I reach 70+ years old and I realize that I missed what I would need to retire in the manner in which I've become accustomed to.
I have goals for my retirement, and I have a wife I have to make compromises with. Beyond that I balance what I spend on cars with other things I want in life. Buying a $100,000 car instead of an $80,000 car for me would either cause me to not have other things I want, or to not meet my retirement goals. I know quite a few other people who are like me in that respect.
BTW, a lot of people confuse being able to afford something with how much they have to spend. I could buy a hell of a nice Ferrari brand new and pay cash for it. But that doesn't mean I can afford it. I could do it without compromising my lifestyle now, but things would go the hell in a hurry when (and if) I reach 70+ years old and I realize that I missed what I would need to retire in the manner in which I've become accustomed to.
12-28-2011, 02:02 PM
#181
Burning Brakes
I understand your logic but really don't agree that just because someone can afford a $70-80k car that they can afford whatever they want. I have an $80,000 Corvette that is my third car, but I promise you I can't afford whatever I want.
I have goals for my retirement, and I have a wife I have to make compromises with. Beyond that I balance what I spend on cars with other things I want in life. Buying a $100,000 car instead of an $80,000 car for me would either cause me to not have other things I want, or to not meet my retirement goals. I know quite a few other people who are like me in that respect.
BTW, a lot of people confuse being able to afford something with how much they have to spend. I could buy a hell of a nice Ferrari brand new and pay cash for it. But that doesn't mean I can afford it. I could do it without compromising my lifestyle now, but things would go the hell in a hurry when (and if) I reach 70+ years old and I realize that I missed what I would need to retire in the manner in which I've become accustomed to.
I have goals for my retirement, and I have a wife I have to make compromises with. Beyond that I balance what I spend on cars with other things I want in life. Buying a $100,000 car instead of an $80,000 car for me would either cause me to not have other things I want, or to not meet my retirement goals. I know quite a few other people who are like me in that respect.
BTW, a lot of people confuse being able to afford something with how much they have to spend. I could buy a hell of a nice Ferrari brand new and pay cash for it. But that doesn't mean I can afford it. I could do it without compromising my lifestyle now, but things would go the hell in a hurry when (and if) I reach 70+ years old and I realize that I missed what I would need to retire in the manner in which I've become accustomed to.
I'll bet you never said, why get a piece of "junk" that can't even be used in .5 inch of snow? I don't think the A7 buyer thinks either, what does this $20K get me over the TL.
12-28-2011, 02:26 PM
#182
Well whatever you get tfor that extra 20K prestige or name recognition is not among them...in that department Audi lags significantly behind BMW and Mercedes....many people still consider them dressed up Volkswagens, there is still that perception among some of the public....
Audi seems to sell well with entry level luxury cars (A4 and Q5 mainly), they fall quickly under the radar when you pass that threshold
Audi "prestige" is not on par with BMW and Mercedes, no amount of market gimmick is going to change that for some time....
Audi seems to sell well with entry level luxury cars (A4 and Q5 mainly), they fall quickly under the radar when you pass that threshold
Audi "prestige" is not on par with BMW and Mercedes, no amount of market gimmick is going to change that for some time....
12-28-2011, 02:47 PM
#183
When I cross shopped the Audi (A4) they sure had high opinions of themselves and some places wouldn't even allow me a test drive unless I was going to purchase it. One of the reasons I went with a TL
Ohh yes..Audi has always had some sort of snotty attitude like they are trying to prove something.....I frankly feel an aversion toward the brand....when my wife test drove the Q5 (we had a Tribeca, she did want to dowside and eventually went with a WRX STI!!!) the salesman tried to put down the Subaru AWD at every opportunity he got.....until I shut him up...
Last edited by saturno_v; 12-28-2011 at 02:50 PM.
12-28-2011, 02:58 PM
#184
Suzuka Master
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I understand your logic but really don't agree that just because someone can afford a $70-80k car that they can afford whatever they want. I have an $80,000 Corvette that is my third car, but I promise you I can't afford whatever I want.
I have goals for my retirement, and I have a wife I have to make compromises with. Beyond that I balance what I spend on cars with other things I want in life. Buying a $100,000 car instead of an $80,000 car for me would either cause me to not have other things I want, or to not meet my retirement goals. I know quite a few other people who are like me in that respect.
BTW, a lot of people confuse being able to afford something with how much they have to spend. I could buy a hell of a nice Ferrari brand new and pay cash for it. But that doesn't mean I can afford it. I could do it without compromising my lifestyle now, but things would go the hell in a hurry when (and if) I reach 70+ years old and I realize that I missed what I would need to retire in the manner in which I've become accustomed to.
I have goals for my retirement, and I have a wife I have to make compromises with. Beyond that I balance what I spend on cars with other things I want in life. Buying a $100,000 car instead of an $80,000 car for me would either cause me to not have other things I want, or to not meet my retirement goals. I know quite a few other people who are like me in that respect.
BTW, a lot of people confuse being able to afford something with how much they have to spend. I could buy a hell of a nice Ferrari brand new and pay cash for it. But that doesn't mean I can afford it. I could do it without compromising my lifestyle now, but things would go the hell in a hurry when (and if) I reach 70+ years old and I realize that I missed what I would need to retire in the manner in which I've become accustomed to.
I think I did pretty good in my life for a kid from the projects & retired 15 years ago at 55 after selling a company in England that developed foreign exchange trading decision software & have never looked back. My big ticket, not necessary to have items, are not cars but boats & aircraft so its hard to see myself in an exotic. Think the most expensive car I ever had was a Jaguar Vanden Plas which was about 50K Pounds Sterling back around 1992.
When I said whatever they wanted I meant, even if it was not fully understood, among the cars we were talking about in the posts, not an exotic. Basically things that 99% of the buying public will purchase. And I specifically used the word “afford” which to me means it does not negatively impact the purchasers standard of living or comfort level. Some people will always over buy: that’s what gave up the mortgage loan problems but that is real life too.
Was my choice to include Audi because it falls in the price range I had in mind & I don’t think someone buying a $65K Audi is running down to the local Acura dealer to see what's on special this week. Also, did not think Audi would stir up such a storm, but on further thought the only thing that makes some people here more crazy then BMW is Audi. Could be because the TL & Audi are both 4X4’s. But then my trucks are also 4X4 & they get a pass.
12-28-2011, 03:01 PM
#185
A manual tranny is a teensy-eensy little bit of the pie. I drove a stick for 12 years and will not go back to it.
When I cross shop I do it by price. If I'm going to spend x dollars on a vehicle I like to see what my x dollars buys. This means I could potentially look at a high-end Grand Cherokee alongside a 335 as my first choice as long I don't have a specific need, like a trailer hitch or 9 seats.
As one of the posters said, people shop and buy for thier own reasons and trying to extend your logic onto someone else will never work.
When I cross shop I do it by price. If I'm going to spend x dollars on a vehicle I like to see what my x dollars buys. This means I could potentially look at a high-end Grand Cherokee alongside a 335 as my first choice as long I don't have a specific need, like a trailer hitch or 9 seats.
As one of the posters said, people shop and buy for thier own reasons and trying to extend your logic onto someone else will never work.
To your point about how you cross shop, we all do this to some extent in the pre-stages but it's what you decide on afterwards that allows you to more specifically and directly cross shop. Using your example, at some time in comparing SUV's and entry compacts, you are going to decide which car and therefore "type" you ultimately prefer, and not to leave any stones unturned, you would/should compare that car to it's most direct of competitors (those it best aligns with) even if they were not in the initial group to further evaluate and compare.
I also happen to like that you brought up the dollar comparison because it also brings up the feature to dollar and dollar to dollar comparison as well which highlights more of the value equation and is another perspective to consider. For example an A4 prestige, 328ix, G37 AWD and TL SH tech comparably equipped are all priced at around $44k. This way, it's a lot easier to see what you are getting for your money.
As far as the TL, and a side from the 6MT, it also is relatively sporty for a FWD luxury mid size sedan and compared those out of that group and even the 6AT and 5AT are not bad relative to AWD mid size sedans either. About middle of the pack in terms of acceleration and among the best in handling and braking.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 12-28-2011 at 03:05 PM.
12-28-2011, 03:16 PM
#186
12-28-2011, 03:17 PM
#187
Three Wheelin'
I think you supported his point very well. the fact you have a corvette, a limited use transportation appliance, says you pretty much afford what you want. Let's face it the even the shah of iran has to stop spending because the world is worth more than him.
I'll bet you never said, why get a piece of "junk" that can't even be used in .5 inch of snow? I don't think the A7 buyer thinks either, what does this $20K get me over the TL.
I'll bet you never said, why get a piece of "junk" that can't even be used in .5 inch of snow? I don't think the A7 buyer thinks either, what does this $20K get me over the TL.
Trust me when I tell you that I manage my money very closely.
Its nice that you could buy a Exotic for cash while still preparing for your retirement. I would hope that everyone has the opportunity to get to where you seem to be over their working career.
I think I did pretty good in my life for a kid from the projects & retired 15 years ago at 55 after selling a company in England that developed foreign exchange trading decision software & have never looked back. My big ticket, not necessary to have items, are not cars but boats & aircraft so its hard to see myself in an exotic. Think the most expensive car I ever had was a Jaguar Vanden Plas which was about 50K Pounds Sterling back around 1992.
When I said whatever they wanted I meant, even if it was not fully understood, among the cars we were talking about in the posts, not an exotic. Basically things that 99% of the buying public will purchase. And I specifically used the word “afford” which to me means it does not negatively impact the purchasers standard of living or comfort level. Some people will always over buy: that’s what gave up the mortgage loan problems but that is real life too.
Was my choice to include Audi because it falls in the price range I had in mind & I don’t think someone buying a $65K Audi is running down to the local Acura dealer to see what's on special this week. Also, did not think Audi would stir up such a storm, but on further thought the only thing that makes some people here more crazy then BMW is Audi. Could be because the TL & Audi are both 4X4’s. But then my trucks are also 4X4 & they get a pass.
I think I did pretty good in my life for a kid from the projects & retired 15 years ago at 55 after selling a company in England that developed foreign exchange trading decision software & have never looked back. My big ticket, not necessary to have items, are not cars but boats & aircraft so its hard to see myself in an exotic. Think the most expensive car I ever had was a Jaguar Vanden Plas which was about 50K Pounds Sterling back around 1992.
When I said whatever they wanted I meant, even if it was not fully understood, among the cars we were talking about in the posts, not an exotic. Basically things that 99% of the buying public will purchase. And I specifically used the word “afford” which to me means it does not negatively impact the purchasers standard of living or comfort level. Some people will always over buy: that’s what gave up the mortgage loan problems but that is real life too.
Was my choice to include Audi because it falls in the price range I had in mind & I don’t think someone buying a $65K Audi is running down to the local Acura dealer to see what's on special this week. Also, did not think Audi would stir up such a storm, but on further thought the only thing that makes some people here more crazy then BMW is Audi. Could be because the TL & Audi are both 4X4’s. But then my trucks are also 4X4 & they get a pass.
Secondly, I live in Houston, which allows me to live in a house that would cost a lot of money in most places but was about the price of a tract home in most of those cities.
That and I have done a decent job of managing what I make. I'm just a working stiff in a mid level management job for a large company.
12-28-2011, 03:24 PM
#188
jjsC5
Congratulation on your Corvette....you see, this is why the Germans will never gain my coin with their pricing strategy....when you look at the money that you need to spend to get a sissied up 3 Series coupe you get into Vette territory (or a CTS-V coupe)......and the 3 Series does not stand a chance.....if we are looking at the "image factor" (I do not care but some people do) you end up driving a 80K+ 5 Series that is basically the same car (minus the bells and whistles) of a stripper 528 which cost half....
Congratulation on your Corvette....you see, this is why the Germans will never gain my coin with their pricing strategy....when you look at the money that you need to spend to get a sissied up 3 Series coupe you get into Vette territory (or a CTS-V coupe)......and the 3 Series does not stand a chance.....if we are looking at the "image factor" (I do not care but some people do) you end up driving a 80K+ 5 Series that is basically the same car (minus the bells and whistles) of a stripper 528 which cost half....
12-28-2011, 03:35 PM
#189
Three Wheelin'
jjsC5
Congratulation on your Corvette....you see, this is why the Germans will never gain my coin with their pricing strategy....when you look at the money that you need to spend to get a sissied up 3 Series coupe you get into Vette territory (or a CTS-V coupe)......and the 3 Series does not stand a chance.....if we are looking at the "image factor" (I do not care but some people do) you end up driving a 80K+ 5 Series that is basically the same car (minus the bells and whistles) of a stripper 528 which cost half....
Congratulation on your Corvette....you see, this is why the Germans will never gain my coin with their pricing strategy....when you look at the money that you need to spend to get a sissied up 3 Series coupe you get into Vette territory (or a CTS-V coupe)......and the 3 Series does not stand a chance.....if we are looking at the "image factor" (I do not care but some people do) you end up driving a 80K+ 5 Series that is basically the same car (minus the bells and whistles) of a stripper 528 which cost half....
As ya'll know, I could easily buy one because I can afford whatever I want
12-28-2011, 03:45 PM
#190
I have to agree with you. I've thought many times about various German cars and I look at them all the time. I have 11 months left on my Lexus lease, and a 535 BMW is the car I'd really like. But to your point, I'd say the odds are against it because as much as I like the car, I have a hard time justifying the price.
As ya'll know, I could easily buy one because I can afford whatever I want
As ya'll know, I could easily buy one because I can afford whatever I want
The lack of manual transmission for the xDrive version really sealed the deal....
12-28-2011, 03:51 PM
#191
Burning Brakes
jjsC5
Congratulation on your Corvette....you see, this is why the Germans will never gain my coin with their pricing strategy....when you look at the money that you need to spend to get a sissied up 3 Series coupe you get into Vette territory (or a CTS-V coupe)......and the 3 Series does not stand a chance.....if we are looking at the "image factor" (I do not care but some people do) you end up driving a 80K+ 5 Series that is basically the same car (minus the bells and whistles) of a stripper 528 which cost half....
Congratulation on your Corvette....you see, this is why the Germans will never gain my coin with their pricing strategy....when you look at the money that you need to spend to get a sissied up 3 Series coupe you get into Vette territory (or a CTS-V coupe)......and the 3 Series does not stand a chance.....if we are looking at the "image factor" (I do not care but some people do) you end up driving a 80K+ 5 Series that is basically the same car (minus the bells and whistles) of a stripper 528 which cost half....
We think differently, it's okay.
12-28-2011, 03:52 PM
#192
Burning Brakes
I'm sitting here almost laughing out loud at your interpretation of what I said. No, I can't afford what I want. I can afford what I have. But if I could afford what I want I'd be beating my brains out right now trying to decide whether to buy a ZR1 or an Aston Martin.
Trust me when I tell you that I manage my money very closely.
Good comments. I've been very fortunate and have had some things work my way. First of all, I've never had children. I feel certain that if those on this thread think about what they spend on their kids through there lifetime, you have easily spent way more than my Corvette cost me.
Secondly, I live in Houston, which allows me to live in a house that would cost a lot of money in most places but was about the price of a tract home in most of those cities.
That and I have done a decent job of managing what I make. I'm just a working stiff in a mid level management job for a large company.
Trust me when I tell you that I manage my money very closely.
Good comments. I've been very fortunate and have had some things work my way. First of all, I've never had children. I feel certain that if those on this thread think about what they spend on their kids through there lifetime, you have easily spent way more than my Corvette cost me.
Secondly, I live in Houston, which allows me to live in a house that would cost a lot of money in most places but was about the price of a tract home in most of those cities.
That and I have done a decent job of managing what I make. I'm just a working stiff in a mid level management job for a large company.
12-28-2011, 03:59 PM
#193
Suzuka Master
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jjsC5
Congratulation on your Corvette....you see, this is why the Germans will never gain my coin with their pricing strategy....when you look at the money that you need to spend to get a sissied up 3 Series coupe you get into Vette territory (or a CTS-V coupe)......and the 3 Series does not stand a chance.....if we are looking at the "image factor" (I do not care but some people do) you end up driving a 80K+ 5 Series that is basically the same car (minus the bells and whistles) of a stripper 528 which cost half....
Congratulation on your Corvette....you see, this is why the Germans will never gain my coin with their pricing strategy....when you look at the money that you need to spend to get a sissied up 3 Series coupe you get into Vette territory (or a CTS-V coupe)......and the 3 Series does not stand a chance.....if we are looking at the "image factor" (I do not care but some people do) you end up driving a 80K+ 5 Series that is basically the same car (minus the bells and whistles) of a stripper 528 which cost half....
I did not like the looks of the CTS-V coupe, others do, beside it has a small back seat. I was not looking for a two seater this time, but do have about 30 calendar years in Corvettes going back to the 1957 dual 4 barrel model so if I did want two seats I would have gotten a Grand Sport because I like the look.
As for your sudden distain for sissied up BMW’s there are any number of posts here by you saying that your BMW of choice is the M5. Personally if you want a 4 door car I think it’s a good choice
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 12-28-2011 at 04:12 PM.
12-28-2011, 05:15 PM
#194
Three Wheelin'
I don't mean to repeat myself but the vette is a non-starter to me. Never get my money, too useless. (don't mean to offend any vette owners). I would first buy a 3 series coupe before the vette, of which, 85K were sold year to date. I would rather have a 3 series couple than a CTS V that will faill apart over time.
We think differently, it's okay.
We think differently, it's okay.
Its all about choice, that why I bought a sissied up 3 series. The super sissy M3 did not appeal to me as a good street car & the few confrontations I have had with them proved the point. The basic sissied up model suited what I wanted at the time so I bought it.
I did not like the looks of the CTS-V coupe, others do, beside it has a small back seat. I was not looking for a two seater this time, but do have about 30 calendar years in Corvettes going back to the 1957 dual 4 barrel model so if I did want two seats I would have gotten a Grand Sport because I like the look.
As for your sudden distain for sissied up BMW’s there are any number of posts here by you saying that your BMW of choice is the M5. Personally if you want a 4 door car I think it’s a good choice
I did not like the looks of the CTS-V coupe, others do, beside it has a small back seat. I was not looking for a two seater this time, but do have about 30 calendar years in Corvettes going back to the 1957 dual 4 barrel model so if I did want two seats I would have gotten a Grand Sport because I like the look.
As for your sudden distain for sissied up BMW’s there are any number of posts here by you saying that your BMW of choice is the M5. Personally if you want a 4 door car I think it’s a good choice
12-28-2011, 05:58 PM
#195
Sales stats for both the A6 and the A7 are still in the dump compared to the more successful cars...I cannot believe that the Lincoln MKS sells more...
Ohh yes..Audi has always had some sort of snotty attitude like they are trying to prove something.....I frankly feel an aversion toward the brand....when my wife test drove the Q5 (we had a Tribeca, she did want to dowside and eventually went with a WRX STI!!!) the salesman tried to put down the Subaru AWD at every opportunity he got.....until I shut him up...
Ohh yes..Audi has always had some sort of snotty attitude like they are trying to prove something.....I frankly feel an aversion toward the brand....when my wife test drove the Q5 (we had a Tribeca, she did want to dowside and eventually went with a WRX STI!!!) the salesman tried to put down the Subaru AWD at every opportunity he got.....until I shut him up...
12-28-2011, 06:23 PM
#196
Drifting
I came from a Legacy and I loved the way the car drove I couldn't stand their crap. They didn't take me seriously and showed me an 09-10 A4 that had the 6 speed auto and not the newer 8 speed. I didn't realize till I went to another dealer and it felt like a completely different car. I will not consider Audi again since the nice dealer I went to is over an hour away and I don't want to go that far for maintenance. They were the only ones to give me trouble and I tried everything in my price point from Audi to Volvo.
12-28-2011, 06:29 PM
#197
The uncertainty with Audi reliability was also a big reason I went with the TL along with the almost $5k savings in purchase price and a lower interest rate (0.9 from Acura compared to 2.5 from Audi). The treatment I got from my Acura dealer was one of the best (MB and Lexus were just as good) in regards to customer service.
12-29-2011, 02:09 AM
#198
I do not necessarily disdain sissied up Bimmers...very nice cars...but sometimes there are better alternatives for me.....yes an xDrive M5 eith the new twin turbo V8, preferably with manual transmission and Torque Vectoring, would be my ideal dream car in the sport sedan arena.....absolutely....
12-29-2011, 06:44 AM
#199
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I do not necessarily disdain sissied up Bimmers...very nice cars...but sometimes there are better alternatives for me.....yes an xDrive M5 eith the new twin turbo V8, preferably with manual transmission and Torque Vectoring, would be my ideal dream car in the sport sedan arena.....absolutely....
12-29-2011, 09:49 AM
#200
Burning Brakes
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+1 on jerk Audi dealerships
When I went for a test of the A6 the salesman badmouthed every other car on the market and before we even got in the car he told me I wouldn't be able to get back into the seat of my cheap Avalon after experiencing the thrill of the A6. Well, my Avalon was twice the car of that Audi and half the price. Salesman got bent out of shape when I left after the test drive and called me every day for the next 2 weeks. I told him I picked up a TL and he hung up without saying goodbye...
When I went for a test of the A6 the salesman badmouthed every other car on the market and before we even got in the car he told me I wouldn't be able to get back into the seat of my cheap Avalon after experiencing the thrill of the A6. Well, my Avalon was twice the car of that Audi and half the price. Salesman got bent out of shape when I left after the test drive and called me every day for the next 2 weeks. I told him I picked up a TL and he hung up without saying goodbye...