jpd985

It is amazing they sell any cars with that attitude. I don't even want to consider them next time because I don't want to deal with them.

saturno_v

There would be no alternatives to that "sissied up 5 Series" on the market....no turbocharged over 500hp AWD sedan...

And, mind you, is not that I would not spend the extra coin for a BMW regardless...I have to like the alternatives even more...I generally like BMWs even if I'm not totally in love with their interiors...

jjsC5

Not counting the Porsche Panamera, Bently Continental to name two that come to mind (yes, I know they are a lot more money). A little cheaper, but not much would be the S8 Audi that is about to come out (not sure if it's out yet or not).

saturno_v

You are right.....but the Panamera is fugly beyond belief (not to mention much more expensive), no comment on the Bentley (do they make them in AWD form?? Interesting...I confess that do not follow that segment of the market!! ) and the Audi A8 is too big for me, boring, ordinary look (like any Audi IMHO, except the A7) and no manual transmission.

Hamma Tyme

Sounds like you had a salesperson who basically broke the golden rule of sales, never ever trash talk the competition. But really, the Audi is 1/2 the car of the Avalon??? I know it is 1/2 the price, but really?

Maybe we should be taking a look at the Avalon.

Hamma Tyme

Basically the same reason I left Acura, the 4th Gen TL was too fugly for my taste. But like the Pananera, someone will buy it. But I am looking forward to the 5th Gen and maybe even buy one once it's revealed and it's to my liking.

JM2010 SH-AWD

I like the looks of my 4G, but would concede that opinions can vary. But next to that ugly mess of a Porsche, the TL is a timeless beauty.

saturno_v

Tastes are highly subjective and personal and there is not point on debating them...to each his own...the only objective thing we can say between a Panamera and a 4G TL is that the TL does not look like anything else on the road, the Panamera look like an overstretched ballooned 911 with 2 extra doors....I do not thiunk that is debatable...

docboy

I have to agree, IMHO from certain angles my 4G TL looks very aggressive... If the Panamera didn't have the Porsche brand and performance, it would likely be ridiculed beyond belief.

My wife drives a Lexus RX330, has high end purses/bags/clothes (ie. Louis Vutton, Prada, etc), and is very much into "looks, fashion, and status symbols." In her opinion the Panamera is digusting and ugly, unsuitable for a Porsche company that makes the iconic 911.

Of course, my wife also thinks the Acura ZDX is horrendous and looks like a turtle on a half shell.

TRIUMPHT

iTrader: (1)

I really wonder if the current TL was slapped with a 5series & BMW badge would you feel the same way?

+1 on both comments minus the porshce comment. I think both the TL and the Porsche looks just fine. I notice anything different people like to criticize. People are used to the porsche being a coupe so naturally when they dropped the suv and then the sedan people took a disliking to it. The 4th Gen was an approach to stand out from the rest so naturally people took a disliking to it. Most people hate to be the outcast.

With the 4G it confuses me on the dislikes because the same people complaining change up their reason for complaining. First it's the beak "if it didnt have the beak it would be fine" then it's the shape "if the design was different it would be better" then it's the performance "if it had more HP's & torque the car would be great". I am confused which one is it? Or is it all combined?

My only gripe with the current TL is the lack of standard features in their base model cars which i own. I paid 36K+ taxes not to mention mods for a car that pretty much didn't have anything much more to offer than my 06 TL as far as features go. But my choice to get the base model was solely based off of where i lived at the time of purchase and my driving habits at that time which have changed in the past year.

I personally have no problems with the 4th Gen TL The ZDX nor the Porsche but then again i embrace change, pushing the limits , challenging the status quo and being progressive.

012TL-GLM

Sorry for the exaggeration, but you get the point. When I got the Acura the salesman was very pleasant and didn't have anything bad to say about other cars, however when I sat down with the finance guy he made several comments concerning Acura's status.

Between all the dealers I visited, I have to say BMW was the most friendly and willing to please. Audi spent their time kissing their own ass

jpd985

I had a great experience beginning to end with Acura. They went out of their way for me. BMW was good and what I would expect from most dealers. Along with Acura, MB and Lexus were just as good while I had the worst experience with Audi (I swear they think they crap don't stink) and Infiniti was not much better. I was ready to buy the Audi too, but do to their service I went with Acura and it worked out for the better

Hamma Tyme

This makes me laugh, leave it to the finance guy hidden in the back office with no windows or personality to possibly screw up the sale and add doubt to the buyer. Being in sales all my life I think I would had said something to him. What a Hammerhead!

People do business with people who treat them with respect. This is when I don't mind paying a little more being this is a strong indication how one might be treated down the road.

By the way, where are you in Chicago? I lived in River North on the corner of N Dearborn & Ohio for 5 years and enjoyed every minute of it.

jjsC5

I have been in sales all my life as well, and I have said things to the finance guys. Quite a few years ago I was buying a Honda Accord. The finance guy pissed me off so bad I stormed out of his office and went and found the salesman and sales manager and told them to get the finance guy under control or they just lost the sale.

When I leased my current Lexus two years ago, I was dealing with the General Sales Manager on the car (good guy). When the finance guy wrote up the lease I told him the charge for extra miles was more than I was told by the sales manager. Finance guy tells me the sales manager was wrong and asked me what I expected. I told him I expected him to write it up the way the Sales Manager told me. After what seemed like a very long stare down he gave in.

g37guy01

My sales person completed all the paperwork, I didn't have to see any other person. That is one of the things I really appreciated about the sales process and dealership.

jpd985

My salesman did the same thing, he did all of the paper work and the finance guy entered it into the computer. I did have a good experience with the finance guy and had no issues working with him.

012TL-GLM

Hi Hamma

I live in Sycamore about 60 miles west of Chicago. I generally avoid Chicago but their attitudes and politics just continue to spill into the rest of IL like a plague I try to get to the auto show every year, and take the kids to the museum or aquarium, but I dread every second of driving once I cross the bridge.

docboy

Agreed.

IMHO, I would bet those who own a 4G TL (or a ZDX) embrace change better than most, don't mind or desire to stand out, and probably are more into thinking/logic versus emotion. Just my opinion...

Of course those who hang out in Car Talk regularly would likely disagree and flame/attach me for saying as such. They tend to favor exterior contemporary mainstream styling above all other attributes, anti 4G TL/anti-recent Acura, RWD rules all, and BMW/Audi/Hyundai worshipers.

FishMeetFish

I love changes, especially stand out changes. But I couldn't convince myself to buy a 4G TL. I would go crazy looking at it in my garage everyday. I'm sorry, it is just me, I can't stand it's styling. Those of you who love it, I respect your choice 100%.

cp3117

You are correct here. While Acura may have tried marketing the TL towards the 5 series its main focus has always been the 3 series, G sedan etc etc. When Acura decided to make the 4G much bulkier in its exterior dimentions everyone all of a sudden thought it moved up in class for some reason, which it didnt.

These vehicle sizes are all based off of EPA class sizing (Interior volume + Cargo volume). The G sedan actually has more volume in both areas than a 4G TL and is also classified as a mid-size vehicle. This is why I always find it funny when the poster above you stated that the 4G is a 5 series, A6 etc competitor but the G somehow isnt. Neither vehicles are true compititors IMO but if someone wants to believe the 4G is then the G sedan should be also.

The same can be said when you always here people say they moved from the 3G to the 4G because its so much roomier. When you look at the interior dimentions though the 3G has more categories in the interior dimention that are larger than the 4G. Even the 2G from 10 years ago is actually larger.

So you can easily see where people get decieved into thinking the 4G is larger when in reality its just the exterior that's larger. IMO its a great marketing ploy by Acura if that was their intent though.

I agree that you can never generalize in these situations and its true any consumer can cross shop whatever they like, just like some people believe their 4G is the same as a Porsche Panamera (That car isnt even in the same EPA size class let alone luxury class). As "Bear-Av" has already mentioned though, anyone can hand pick mag stats and make any comparison possible.

Some things are misleading though such as the sales graph posted in this thread. Their are compacts, large cars, Suv/Stn Wgn and midsize vehicles listed in that graph. I dont think many here think that of the thousands of 5 series sold that month that the majority sat in a TL and cross shopped it or vice versa. If anything the RL would have been looked at more.

There was a link around here a year ago where Edmunds did some research and found that the majority of consumers that shop Acura's cross shop Toyota's and Honda's first with luxury brands further in the list. They also found that the top traded in vehicles besides another Acura where Toyota's, Nissan's and Honda's.

While this doesnt show individual models it clearly shows that the main consumer group that shops Acura's are the mainstream consumer and not luxury consumers (Although they are obviously close on the list).

This is why many of these sales graphs you see are misleading being Acura would obviously have a larger consumer group looking at their products than the other true luxury brands and in turn have increased sales numbers.

FishMeetFish

I also had a very satisfied experience with my dealer. My salesman did everything that he could to satisfy my requirements. And the sales manager gave helpful suggestions which I very much appreciated. Once I made my final decision on which car I wanted, my salesman did all the paper work. Then I went into the finance manger office. On my way in, I was thinking to myself, it couldn't be this easy. The finance manager asked me to review and confirm the numbers. I reviewed, confirmed, and signed. That was it! Out of there in less than 5 minutes.

Couple of weeks later after I took delivery of my new car, I received a nice gift from Tiffany. I opened it up and it was sent from my dealer!

jpd985

This was my first time buying a luxury car and it was fun checking out all of the cars. It was hard to choose in the end since I liked the drive on all of them but I got the best deal on the TL and the service there was phenomenal.

winstrolvtec

The car by no means moved up a full class as it still considered an entry level mid size sedan but it did take some steps forward and moved upscale with more attention drawn to it's actual size rank with it's new design and the addition of SH-AWD. As far as "everyone" thinking that it did move up, I don't know what to tell you, no one here has called it the equivalent of a 5 series as a whole and the majority of car buyers know this.

Only the very ignorant or naïve, when it comes to cars, would think this, and as far as those who are car savvy and do compare the two on some level and capacity, where perhaps you still disagree, then maybe it is just you and possibly more credit needs to be given where it is due specifically but not where it isn't, especially since many of the industry's members have taken notice of some similarities and areas where comparisons between the two are warranted. Also, I don't think anyone is being deceived or that Acura is trying to trick people. If they are then they are not the only ones.

There simply has been cars in this specific range for some time now, they are merely cheaper mid size luxury sedans or mid level alternatives. Lexus has the IS and ES, then GS, Acura has the TSX and TL, then RL, Caddy will follow and I think Buick already does this to some extent as well. The FWD TL fits nicely as it always has, as an ES, Maxima, etc competitor directly and of course because of price and position you could throw the entry compacts and the G in as well even though they are different types of vehicles with different purposes. This happens to be a somewhat unique position and warrants different considerations when comparing, which has probably been more of the emphasis of comparing a TL SH to a 535 than it being a matter of the two being true competitors overall or on all levels.

What makes it worse is the SH is an even more uniquely positioned vehicle or at least a uniquely equipped vehicle with regards to size, drive-train, torque vectoring and even 6MT and changes the way these things are looked at. As we know, the line between mainstream and luxury is blurring as are the vehicles’ previously clear cut positions and sizes.

You often hear about some vehicles being referred to as tweener size cars like the G, A4, even TSX. Then there are those often considered tweener by "class", like the Genesis and CTS. I can't say whether or not the TL is officially a tweener by class like the CTS is often considered to be but I think it makes a strong case, stronger than most, as the CTS is probably one of the SH's closest competitor and regardless, it is has always been a mid size sedan and this gen's size matches up all too well with some of the most popular luxury mid size sedans like the GS and A6 and even has larger passenger volume than some, those two included.

As far as the G also being a mid, that is correct but the G with a sunroof/moonroof (apples to apples) actually has less total volume than either TL model and conveniently falls at 110 cu ft which technically is a mid size but it is the smallest mid size you can actually achieve or basically the largest compact, sort of on the line if you will. This is what would be referred to as barely mid sized, more so than any other mid and if you know the car personally, despite how well it measures up to other mids, it does leave you wondering if there was any inaccuracies or foul play, not suggesting there is or that is my opinion, it just doesn't match up in space with most mids regardless of what is on paper. Personally, I think it is a reflection of insufficiently utilized space, specifically too much focused on headroom and not enough spread throughout.

Furthermore, the G coupe is as compact as they come and they do not have another vehicle positioned below the G so they make no marketing or positioning attempt at labeling this car a mid level alternative or class tweener and IMO, they do not have enough going on there that might warrant that, especially with a G25 model. While Acura does have a entry compact TSX and mid level RL with the TL slotted in between. The majority of the TL's offerings match those of the RL's and these two vehicles are highly cross shopped and it's not a secret that the RL's biggest issue has been the TL positioned too closely, just like the ES has been the major issue for the GS. If the RL is crossed shopped with the A6's and the 5's and the TL is cross shopped with the RL, it's only a matter of math.

Like I said in another post, perhaps not a lot of it is coming from the other side but from the TL and RL side, folks do cross shop them with these other products. Especially since most people only buy the lesser trimmed 528 and A6 premium models etc, where now the TL SH becomes a nice alternative and is in the specific price range (and with the reduced feature and refinement count of those models), you can argue specific luxury range as well. I believe that is in part why we have seen the elimination of the GS300 models, the E320's, and why there is no M25, and so on an so forth. They do not want to lose there distinction and upscale positioning, especially to cheaper same sized competition because as I said previously, these lines do get very blurry, especially with all the different price points and trims, and it is only getting worse.

As far as who shops Acura, I do think there is a valid argument there but not up to recent years though. Acura's major models a few years ago were the 1G TSX and 3G TL but the thing about those models were they fell much more into mainstream pricing than they did luxury, hence the extent of cross shopping with mainstream products. They were very much Accord plus models that you could get for the same as fully loaded Accords or a few grand more and they basically ate into the Accord market. A large reason for the decline in sales of these models outside of the economics circumstances recently, was how much more they had moved away from the Accord or mainstream products both in offerings and in price.

The 4G TL has some styling controversy, not to under play that but I do believe it has been vastly overrated. It is mainly a scapegoat for the price having been pushed substantially up and the alienation of FWD buyers, especially those of the TLS with the addition of the SH. Since it's MMC, which has unanimously been heralded as acceptable, it has not been able to surpass the previous year's monthly and YTD totals.

It's true that the deals haven't been the same and inventory hasn't helped plus the whole first impressions thing but the bottom-line is, the car has not sold any better and you could argue that it's been slightly worse as it hasn't leveled off either. Remember, the 3G started slipping pretty substantially with the 07-08 when the price surpassed $35k for the FWD tech and they added a TLS for nearly $40k.

Today, there are at least fewer Acura trims that get compared to mainstream products but at the same time, mainstream and luxury are starting to intersect. The TSX V6 is nearly $40k, as is the base the SH trim, the FWD advance is over that and SH advance is over $45k. The ZDX is not getting cross shopped with any mainstream products, nor is the RL. The RDX, FWD TL tech and below, plus the I4 TSX models likely are and the MDX probably is but only to a few mainstream models but not many.

Than again with Acura's limited lineup and heavy focus on entry models for profitability, it is no wonder why that may be the case but it seems to be becoming a little less frequent and should continue in that direction for the future with a couple of new repositioned flagship offerings, etc while it may become a little bit more of an issue for some other luxury makes when a few have announced cheaper more practical applications, especially like the ones they already offer in Europe and other parts of the world.

saturno_v

Wasting your time.....I tried to explain to our friend cp3117 what we meant and in what regard the TL competes with the entry/mid level 5 Series offering...put it in another way not a principal or a head-to-head competitor but an also competitor (as Acura clearly stated in its press releases which I posted countlesss times)..I gave up long time ago, he will never get it....once in a while he wakes up and post his usual convoluted arguments, verbatim....and he tries to argue with sales number figures which are just that...hard figures...nothing misleading about it....
He won' t give up even when the vast majority of TL owners in this forum said that they cross shopped the 5 Series...for him car shoppers are guided only by brands and status...for him if you buy a BMW you will never cross shop an Acura and vice versa....

saturno_v

Time pass and you keep repeating nonsense and keep demonstrating that you do not know how to read.....it must be the cold in Canada....

I always have to police your BS....the TL has more interior volume than a G (about 2 cu. ft.) when the G is equipped with moonroof....the G get 1 cu. ft. more only when without sunroof, something that is standard on the TL...do your homework before posting....

saturno_v

.....However if I really want to play a bit debating your utter idiocies, the TL has an actually bigger EPA passenger volume than the Panamera...by a hair but bigger anyway...just saying....

Hamma Tyme

Why do you make a comment like this? No, I would not. If I don't like the design, I couldn't give a shit if an Aston Martin badge was taped on it.

It's comments like this that start the, "Car Holy War"!

I owned a 2nd Gen TL and waited for the 4th TL to be revealed, only then I looked elsewhere and I ended up with a BMW as I mentioned many times before and I'm sure you've read my posts. I only used the "Fugly" comment because another poster used the word describing another car.

As I mentioned in the same post, it was only my opinion. If you like the design of your car, enjoy it.

sebounet2005

to come come back to the original message, and because i own the g37x and tl sh awd, i can talk about what i have and not what i ve heard and read etc...

and to add more credibility it s the same winter tires on both car, toyo garit kx

the OP live in NYC, so may be he will be interested to compare the both awd system. Sh-awd of the Tl act faster and don t let you slide, it s also quicker to retrieve the motricity. g37x let you slide a lot, it s fun sometimes when you know it will happen, but not so when it s by surprise ( black ice you can t see for example)

g37guy01

one cannot generalize how people shop. If I were to spend the $55k on a 535 I wouldn't even have to test drive it much pretend to cross shop a TL. If all I could afford was the $40k for a TL why am I shopping a 535? If I'm shopping and i can afford a 535 and i want that class vehicle I would buy it. Granted some one will chime in with the usual I can afford a 535 but the TL is either a better car or better value.

Now that's me. Sample size of one. This forum not really a statistically valid and random sample either to make sweeping generalizations. people I know who buy bmw would not cross shop a tl vs a 5 series eg and wind up with the TL. They would cross shop with a merc or Audi. However anybody can say they did anything on the Internet.

g37guy01

Black ice you have already crashed, doesn't matter. Drove the g in the surprise snow in oct in new England that dumped 20 inches in parts of nj. no drama, no sliding no getting stuck. That's all I want and expect from my awd.

BEAR-AvHistory

These guys could really use you to help them out.

Hamma Tyme

Given the current state of our economy, many mid-level car or moderate income car buyers are either staying put, or trading in for the same level or trading down. So basically the Honda level car you have less trading up for Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus. For more expensive cars like Benz or BMW, personally I agree as these customers wouldn't leave this group of cars once they buy and drive them.

But then again, the more expensive the car, the smaller the market being there are more people in the less then 100k income bracket then lets say 200k+ bracket. IMHO

sebounet2005

I didn't say the g was not drivable, but less performance in snow or slippery condition. I leave in Montreal , so i know what bad weather is , and how to drive. Even with FWD no problem. If you drive slowly you can be safe with any car. But at the same speed the G slide more than the TL, i m sure. I was surprised how the g was slidding for an awd car, since the beginning. But i was getting used with that.

And i said black ice, but it could be slush, or you are on dry pavement and suddenly there s some snow in a turn that you didn't expect

winstrolvtec

You're right about it being a sample size of one and "people you know" is also a generalization. I don't know what it is about a TL being mentioned alongside a 5 series that really bothers people, it's nearly as simple as they are both technically mid size luxury vehicles.

The 5 does not have to be a 535 nor does it have to have the same level of equipment. It does not have to be a $40k TL to a $60k 5 series either. The 5 has broad ranges of trims and price points so it's not inappropriate to find something in there a TL can rival to some capacity or even multiple capacities and it's not too hard to find somethings the TL does objectively better. People don't have to like this but until consumers only buy M5's and 550's then the comparison will be made. Furthermore, when you sell mostly 528's and stripper 535's than the TL (especially SH) becomes a viable alternative.

At the time I purchased my TL, the last gen 535 was the only other option for a mid size luxury sedan with 6MT and AWD combined. The monthly payment would have been the nearly the same in either case, finance vs lease. I did think and still do think the TL is a better car and better value but as Saturno mentioned, car buying is not all about a reflection of status for everyone, some people do look at the actual cars and how they compare in addition to how they don't. Saying that people who shop BMW only look at Audi or MB is exactly the type of thing I am talking about.

FWIW, some people I know who regularly bought their daughter the C class or 3 series decided on a TSX and are vastly impressed, they couldn't be happier with the superior reliability, space, gas mileage, and money saved. I know BMW owners who wanted the X5 but thought BMW was out of their mind in justifying the price when there are so many excellent options in that segment or range, and so the MDX it was. If you jokingly told these folks they were blinded by the status quo, they would totally agree but to fair, Acura does have some issues with it's image.

So I agree that you should not generalize either way but I am curious as to why you still are. To say the TL is not a total competitor to a 5 series as a whole is correct but to suggest no one cross shops the two in some form or capacity is unrealistic.

winstrolvtec

I'm sure many are surprised with that as well but I would not be surprised based on the difference in how the systems function. The G's AWD has always seemed more like RWD+ to me, which is not necessarily a bad thing depending. Then again I am sure there are those who would say the same thing about SH but in the context of poor weather driving, just in basic principal, one presents an advantage over the other.

Having said that, I'm sure the G is capable enough if you drive appropriately and like most, with snow tires, it would be as good as anything else.

jpd985

I shopped by price and luxury sedans that had AWD. Since the 3 series is closer in price to the TL than the 5 series I checked that one out. I like the 5 series but it was out of my price range. I also checked out the S60-R, IS350 AWD, A4, C300 4MATIC (I wish they sent the C350 4MATIC here), G37x, and the CTS (3.6). The IS350 was my favorite but with my head hitting the 'oh crap' handle when checking my blind spot I had to pass. In the end the I loved the TL and it gave me the most bang for me buck.

g37guy01

Listen you can compare anything, a Maserati against an s2000, a Bugatti against an evo. The 535 is far and away a better car than the TL or g in my opinion. Without going into what constitutes better. Has more tech is better looking, more options, and probably has all around better road feel.

I think the new 528 is a better car than the TL. But i agree I don't pretend to know hat 'people' do. But in the world of cars and the Internet, the irrational becomes the predictable.

saturno_v

Put a big emphasis on the "my opinon" part.

Having more options does not necessarily means a better car make...Torque Vectoring, despite being old news, is not even on option (which is a serious option) on a 5 Series unless you get the new M5, which has the sport diff....I take that over night vision, ambiance lights, a piece of wood trim and stuff like that.

Again, your personal opinion....

TRIUMPHT

iTrader: (1)

That's bcause the G is RWD until the rear wheels start slipping then the front kick in.

+1

you would. let me guess because it's a bmw? please elaborate.
I could see and understand just not liking the 4 G TL as a personal opinion but that's a mighty broad statement .

saturno_v

g37guy....just to let you know, we are not the only crazy ones that dare to draw a value comparison 535-TL SH-AWD...

http://www.windingroad.com/articles/...ura-tl-sh-awd/

http://www.edmunds.com/acura/tl/2010/road-test.html

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...e/viewall.html

http://www.ridelust.com/2012-acura-t...delust-review/

So do you think that Edmunds comment "

"A World-Class Performance Sedan With a Tech-Laden, Executive-Grade Interior"

...is not deserved???

Lose the badge mentality guys....

At this point I seriously think that some people owning cars in the similar price range are just somewhat upset for some stupid reasons because only the TL in that bracket is compared to cars of a higher segment (and not only for size reasons)....I really do not know what to think at this point...