omaralt

i actually prefer RWD over AWD.. maybe it's because i live in Florida and dont need AWD; but RWD is so much more fun to drive. the AWD may have slightly better performance numbers because it can put the power down better, but RWD is a joy to drive.. IMO RWD>AWD>>>>>FWD


lol you serious? that has to be one the sexiest cars i've ever seen

graphicguy

Interesting observation, there's not one thread over at "Bimmerfest" comparing a 3 or 5 series to a TL.

omaralt

Thus proving my point that people shopping for BMWs don't cross shop Acura..

Glashub

I wouldn't want to even think about comparing my car to a car that cost thousands less either.....for fear that precious illusions about perceived (but spurious) value would be ripped away.

omaralt

I don't disagree with you. Just emphasizing my point

jasonwdp10

For those that want prestige and image over "bang for your buck" value, it's a non-issue.

PsychDoc

Ah, theere's nothing like a little Hoffmeister kink in the morning to get the blood flowing.

Instantly turns that boat into a BMW.

saturno_v

You did not even look...trust me...


Just the first few ones I come up doing a 2 seconds search on the Bimmerfest forum


2006 Acura TL vs Bmw 530

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=543766


BMW 528 vs Acura TL

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=334786

Acura TL vs BMW 330 and Infiniti G35

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=111472

Could the Acura TL Type S be underrated because is FWD??

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=204841

Drove the '10 Audi S4 / Acura TL SH-AWD 6MT / BMW 335d on the track today.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/arc.../t-408231.html

"....Great (new) transmission and grippy Michelin Sport Cup tires helped this thing fly around corners. Very stable with neutral handling on the track, but plenty of roll. Braking from 100+ mph was very stable and solid. Easy to drive at the limit, and very forgiving. It was the first time I actually enjoyed an Acura TL on the race circuit (thanks to that 6MT).
"

And one user ask to the OP

"How was the steering feel on the TL? Part of the reason I crossed it off my list early on was because I couldn't live with the numb EPS. Have they fixed that problem?"

2004 530i (e60) VS 05 ACURA TL VS 05 G35 (NO AUTO..all STICK)

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/arc.../t-240828.html

I could go on but just few ones to give you an idea....then other Acura vehicles are compared to other BMW cars.....dozens and dozens of post comparing Acuras to BMWs....


Yes you have a ton of snobbery and nonsense on that forum like on any other enthusiast forums including here...

saturno_v

I totally agree... and the interiors are hideaous...to be polite...I sat on a new one recently, very plasticky feel.
I really wonder who buys Buick other than older folks on SS...

graphicguy

saturn....nobody's "dissing" your car. Many of those posts, TL vs BMW, are really old.

I look over at Bimmerfest regularly. Very little is posted about TL vs BMW.

TL's a good car. I've owned 3 of them. I've also owned 3 BMWs. They're excellent cars, in a different price range, a different performance range, a different quality range, etc. And yes, they're in a different price range (for the most part) too.

HighRevving

Mind sharing? I always wondered.

I had the privilege of indulging in an assortment of fine European automobiles myself: Fiat 132, Peugeot 504 and a Renault 12 but only after I mastered the art of driving in a Renault 5 . It was so beaten up that I think driving it should've required a special driver's license. Can't remember the make years but I will tell you that I doubt any of them had less than 200K.
On that note, let me tell you a story..
I remember driving the Peugeot 504 diesel toward a beach town, an 8hrs+ trip, summer time, through a congested two lane mountainous road with 5 (+?) people and a full trunk. One lane per traffic direction. The rear was literally ‘slammed’ due to weight. I am at the bottom of a mountain valley preparing for a long and steep uphill ascent. I was in an immense need to pick up speed if I were to make it to the top but I had a very slow 18 wheeler in front of me. I only cared to remember few things out of that scene when I made it mid ascent.. One was the thick black smoke coming from his exhaust covering that gorgeous mountainous canvas and slowly making it into my car's cabin while i was sweating due to fear of not being able to make it to the top. The other was having shifter on 2nd gear, clutch fully engaged, gas pedal floored and the P-car (Peugeot not Porsche) was standing still while 18 wheeler is slowly pulling away....

jasonwdp10

Nice try. Might want to check how old those threads are. Aside from the guy looking at a used 3gtl vs his old 530, they're all years old.

I browsed the first 5 pages of both the most current 3 and 5 series forums there at saw an "A5 vs 335" thread, a "lexus more loved than bmw" thread, a "550 vs porsche panamera 4s" thread (top thread there btw), and an "A6 is the new 5 series" thread.

Seems to me like people there stopped caring about acura years ago.

jasonwdp10

What's even more interesting is that while they have a lack of acura on their more current threads, we here have threads to figure out what to do with all the "Acura vs. xx car" threads that pop up so often...

PsychDoc

Seriously, there's absolutely nothing on the F10 board that even mentions the TL. You'll find a bit of comparison on the Bimmerfest 3 series boards but really not a peep on the F10 board. Don't feel bad though, you will similarly see nothing about any Cadillac or Jaguar and the MB E-class is a rarity as well. The talk over there that compares cars is between the F10 and the A6/7 or the Panamerica (a car I find hideous beyond words in spite of what I hear are it's great driving dynamics and interior...I'd rather drive an AMC Pacer [not really but....does anyone remember those monstrosities?]).

cp3117

Here is the link for Acura's Media site.

http://www.acuranews.com/

Please look through the Archive section and current section especially the RL material and please tell us what they say the RL's competitors are....(Most of us already know).

If you honestly put your bias away while you look through their material you will see that the TL has always been marketed towards the entry level class luxury vehicles. Even in 1999 when they introduced the 2G TL they mentioned that its now a mid-size car by the EPA but its competition was still the entry level class.

"Available in just one trim level with a compmrehensive list of standard features, the TL is now considered a Midsize car by the EPA. It has a roomy, new interior that's more spacious than those of its mid-luxury competition, cars like the Lexus ES 300, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, and BMW 3 Series."

I could keep going on here but as others have said its just marketing material. Whats really funny though, is that in your own quote the material says that the G37 is a specific model that the 4G was designed to compete against......yet in a earlier post you clearly say it isnt.

I think im starting to understand you now. If the vehicle is more expensive and in a higher class its comparable to the TL but if its equal and provides a better value then of course it isnt.


Really?? Did you bother to look closely at the graph you posted or did you just see the title and the TL in amongst the 5 Series etc and decided it must be fact???

Its obvious that its the sources opinion in that graph that they mentioned the TL. Where is the Buick Lacrosse, etc ?? Why do they have 2 large car category vehicles, a compact and a SUV in what is suppose to be a mid-size luxury car comparison chart??

The only thing fact in that chart you keep posting is the model and the number they sold. It doesnt necessarily mean that all of these vehicles are cross shopped and direct competitors to each other.

This isnt a 5 Series survey but its a small survey of people that where asked what they think the tier levels of certain brands are.

http://autoheadlines.blogspot.com/20...ous-brand.html

I also posted a link months ago where edmunds did some research and found the most cross shopped and traded in vehicles with the Acura brand where Toyota, Honda, Nissan and of course other Acura's. The true tier 1 luxury brands where then considered later on in the list. This gives you an insight on the type of consumer that generally purchases an Acura and that is usually a mainstream consumer more so than a Luxury car buyer.

This is why when you post that graph all of the time its very misleading. Many here have already commented on it but do you honestly believe that the majority of TL's sold in a month are cross shopped with a 5 series?? The RL's numbers are more in line with the 5 series numbers etc.

You have a very nice vehicle Saturno along with many others here but you dont need to keep trying to justify your purchase or whatever it is your doing.

cp3117

I noticed this too.

Maybe we need to go to the Bentley or Lambo forums. Maybe thats where 4G's are being compared.

saturno_v

So we are reducing the section of the forum till we find one where the comparasion is not brought up??

Actually just for the fun of it I did run a search on Bimmerfest, in the F10 section, of the term Acura TL and that car showed up a lot in discussion.....granted with the vast majority of people (it is a BMW forum after all) saying the the 5 is the higher end vehicle (and overall it is )...and it is funny because I even quickly find one die hard F10 fan user that suggest to the others to actually go and test one of the TL Manual before to post!!!! (the thread was "BMW resale stinks!!" and you posted on it)

Now do something...go on Bimmerfest in the F10 section and search for "genesis"......you will see actually few 5 series current owners on that site that cross shopped the Genesis (I quickly found 3 and one own a 535 like you.....there could be more) and one of the comment was "well you should not compare a Genesis to a 5 Series because the 5 Series is very sporty but a comparison with a Mercedes E Class or a Lexus is totally valid"...so nothing about badge.

Many F10 user would never consider an Acura mainly because they are extremely loyal to the longitudinal engine layout and RWD....not because of status

Now, it is obvious that BMW is a such stronger brand than Acura, tier 1 luxury as they say......and it has a very fanatic fan base which probably would not consider anything other than BMW.......you find Benz fanatic that would not consider anything othern then Mercedes or even Lexus (to a lesser degree) fans.


It conveys prestige because of its very high end offering, and some bimmerfest users clearly admit that a good part of the price difference is in the badge...take it from them....


But not everybody is BMW obsessed, there are people not particularly attached to the brand and there is a good amout of cross shopping if we stay at 528-535 level in both direction...they just want a midsize luxury car that appeal to them...

From a purely rational point of view the 2 cars are not that far apart (again TL vs. 528-535) with the slight edge in quality somewhat going to the BMW for a substantial price difference......not everybody shop with a badge in mind folks...that is so hard to understand??

Glashub

Love this post from the brand awareness link you provided -

"The driver of a BMW who collided with a wall at 78 miles per hour said, "For whatever reason the airbags did not activate. Were it not for the car's prestige, I would surely be a dead man."

saturno_v

The RL is a "fully" competitor with the 5 Series (not really, no V8) and overlap too much with the TL (everybody knows that) not enough differentiation, infact that model is dead.

Did I ever said that the TL is not intended to compete (on price) with the G and the 3 Series?? No....I even posted the section of the Acura material where this is clearly mentioned...I simply said for for me they do not really compete because the TL is a full size and the G and 3 are midsize...and trust me if you ever set foot on them you can feel the difference in space...again my opinion, not how Acura intend to market the TL...

No, you did not understand it at all and you do not read well my posts...you seem to read what you want to read and ignore the rest...I even said that the Maxima is a true competitor for the TL even if the Maxima is not officially considered a luxury vehicle.

These are compiled sales data, not opinions....the source is sales data aggregators and official company sales stats you can find online...kudos to the owners of the site to take the time to aggregate them, they probably pay some feee to get this data...these is no opinion in them....no manipulation.....Acura as BMW as Lexus, etc are officially considered luxury brands (tier 1, 2, 3, whatever), the TL is a midsize luxury sedan hence is grouped with the 5 Series...nothing mysterious or purposedly misleading about it...as far as I know the owners of that site never claimed to be TL fans

The Buick is not there because Buick is not an officially luxury brand, as the Nissan Maxima is not there because Nissan is not a luxury brand as well...is simple, then we can discuss all the potential variations and who, in our opinion should be there and what not, who cross-shop what...you find the Genesis because Hyundai officially market that vehicle as a luxury car within a mainstream brand.
Volkwagen is perceived as some sort of premium brand, in some sort of "limbo" by the public (as Buick) but officially is a mainstream brand.
I see no SUV in that chart, please tell me where it is.....these cars are all considered full size by EPA standards as far as I know...

It does not, you are correct.....but it does not prove what cars in that group are cross shopped.....you guys think too much in terms of badge, a tunnel vision and this is very evident...you suppose that all potential 5 series owners went to visit only an Audi or a Benz dealer as alternatives...it is not....many do but not all of them...trying to attempt to pinpoint precise cross shopping data is an exercise in futility....we have to rely on personal observation which, by definition, are limited...unless we can rely on specific surveys...

We are not talking about brand perception here.....obviously Acura is not perceived at the same level BMW, big discovery here.....simply not everybody (or even the vast majority) shop only in terms of brand.....I personally shopped in and out of luxury/mainstream brands myself as many many other people I know....

We are not discussing about the percentage of cross shopping that happen...but cross shopping does happen and not in isolated cases......

I'm not trying to justify anything....if I want a car I buy it....do not put words in my mouth or twist what the original discussion is about

Stay on topic and try to understand what is being discussed here before attempting to be funny or ironic....read the results of Bimmerfest search on the F10 where some people cross shopped it with the Genesis....

winstrolvtec

What I think is missing in the argument about the TL not often being cross shopped with a 5 series (particularly the comparable trims) is that the lack of cross shopping might have little do with how the cars actually compare in an objective sense and in fact, it could have little to do with the cars themselves even. They may not often be cross shopped because of the ideas and the thoughts that surround these cars and brands and because of the comparably equipped price points not necessarily because they don't compare. If people removed all the very subjective attributes and paid more attention to how cars compare in a more fundamental and categorical based way, this comparison would be more common and more openly discussed.

Most people don't seem to have the ability to put the preconceived notions aside based on image, prestige, what other people think, or basically perception and most also don't know how not to make more out of price differences than how much of it is actually represented, especially in an instance where one is a value oriented luxury brand, whose whole theme is to do more with less, for less, and delivers what is considered to be a great value, while the other is much less compromising, simply has more costs associated with their manufacturing, and is often considered pricey and even overpriced and by the very same people who buy and sell them but that is a big part of the allure.

While that might not really change the price differences and therefore how often the two are actually cross shopped, the reality of the situation actually leaves us with a gap between a TL SH and 535ix somewhere much more along the lines of the gap between the same TL and an RL, so these gaps are extremely similar in both cases when you remove the price and perception elements. For anyone to say that you cannot compare the TL SH and an RL, I think that is absurd. Most would agree that makes for a very effective comparison although it‘s not one of the best. IMO one would be foolish not to compare a TL SH to an RL or at least consider the idea and the kicker is, these two cars are commonly cross shopped together.

To be fair, the RL is an outdated model and the 5 is new but still the differences between them are marginal and it’s definitely direct competitor worthy still, even though the price gap is around $13k comparably equipped. While I don't feel entirely the same about how the TL relates to a comparable 5 series as it does to the RL, the same (gap) logic still applies but only as far as objective rationale will allow it. The subjective rationale, in most cases, doesn't really allow for a serious comparison in the first place.

Let me break it down further, we see some who insist that the TL can't compare to a 5 series, but the RL does compare and is a direct competitor. The same people (at the same time) will acknowledge that the TL and RL are positioned very close together and in most cases, you could compare them. But for some reason they cannot seem to connect the very same idea that (while the TL may not be on equal footing), if it can rival an RL, it should be able to rival a comparable 5 series, just the same, meaning it’s the same exact concept.

It’s funny because most would agree with this concept but as soon as you mention BMW and 5 series, it’s like that logic gets thrown completely out the window and it shouldn’t, that is if you want to be a fair and balanced car enthusiast IMO. One can't allow the perception that surrounds BMW over Acura or the larger (perhaps not 100% substantiated) price gaps between them destroy what would otherwise make for a comparison that is not totally unreasonable. We can include the Halo effect in this as well, but it should be understood that a 528 is not a 550, a 535 is not an M5.

For everyone insisting that the RL is the more appropriate competitor, not only do I agree with that and you are correct in suggesting it, but understand you are also proving some of our very points which you are working very hard to discredit at the same time. If you ask Acura, Cadillac, and Lexus what has been the biggest issues with the RL, STS, and GS, they will tell you the biggest factors have been the TL, CTS, and ES. Yet some of you seem to think people don't cross shop the higher and lower end mids and maybe in the case of the 5 series, that’s true but only because they don’t have a middle model but then this is also proof that the lack of cross shopping has little to do with how the cars actually compare. It has a lot more to do with perception, prestige, price, brand loyalty, etc, instead.

I will repeat this a million times if I have to, the TL SH is not the most appropriate competitor to a comparable 5 series for a few reasons. Some aspects of the TL compete better against the 5 than others and they are only comparable on the basis of specific trims, particularly the SH and 535ix and as a whole, not just price and luxury where they wouldn‘t necessarily compete. When taking into account all the TL and 5 series models, it's not hard to say they shouldn't compare but somewhere in there you can find something that resembles a favorable match up.

This does not have to be some injustice to BMW or is somehow making the TL to be more than it is, it just is what it is and is how the two products relate to each other specifically. It has no bearings on how other cars relate to either of them separately.

saturno_v

You are wasting your time...there is nothing worse that people that do not want to understand....

A very recent example, one of my old neighbour sold his old E class (bought new) for an fully loaded Subaru Outback 3.6....in the world of perfect only brand conscius individuals that seems to poppulate part of this site (and in general) this is an impossibility....my own father in law sold his E Class (again, new at that time) years ago for a Subaru because he wanted something different......absurd to some of these people....

In two different occasion I was at the Acura of Bellevue where I got my TL, 2 E60 traded for a TL SH-AWD...but you know, it is impossible...they must have been used and bla bla bla....

winstrolvtec

First off, no one is saying the TL is not an entry level vehicle. This should not even be a discussion. Why do you constantly argue against this?

Secondly, this dates back a bit, before Acura introduced a compact entry vehicle in the TSX. Today, they have an entry TSX, a mid level RL, and the TL positioned in between which means by price and perceived luxury (which probably are two of the most paid attention to aspects), it is an entry mid size sedan but due to it's size and the RL's lack of entry trim, it competes with other mid size sedans as well.

There are two ways to view this unique position, on the basis of luxury and price where it is an entry competitor or more specifically, as a low end FWD or AWD mid size sedan in a category with all the luxury mid size sedans. There is no right or wrong way to go about it, it's only a matter of how people shop and compare. It's the difference between reading a menu left to right or right to left.

Any argument against that is basically arguing against the TL's EPA ranked size and it's position within Acura which you can if you would like to but there is nothing to argue. Having nothing to do with you specifically, I don't know why this is being made into more or less or whatever the thread is at this point?

JM2010 SH-AWD

One reason people think the 535 and TL (SH-AWD) are comparable is that they are very similarly sized and, on most performance measures, test out very similarly, with the slight edge to the TL (at least the 6MT). Once we're past that, we're only talking about the relative value of finishes, features, options etc.

To some, this is absolute blasphemy, that a lowly Honda product - cut from the Accord cloth no less - can compete with the 6 cylinder 5 series, for considerably less $$.

To others, this is the magic of Honda's game.

To each his/her own.

I'll just continue to wring my TL through the twisties, listening to that beautiful V6 music while the rest of you sort this all out.

compewterbleu

Same here...enjoying the ride

SLLAZ

Why I leased a 2012 TL SH-AWD with automatic transmission and Advantage option and not the 535i xDrive. I wanted a comfortable, commodious, fun to drive dour-door sedan and drove BMW, Acura TL SH-AWD, Infiniti M37x, and Volvo S60. I ruled out the Infiniti and the Volvo. I could not wait for the 2012 Audi A6, which particularly interested me.

I leased the TL for five reasons.
1. Acura's reputation for reliability and trouble-free motoring.
2. I couldn't find a 535i xDrive with the dynamic suspension package to drive. The stock 535 is no fun to drive. The Acura dealer had a TL SH-AWD with Advantage option in stock and let me drive it hard.
3. Acura delivered my car in about three weeks. BMW wanted four months.
4. The Acura leased for $725 a month for 24 months. The BMW was much higher.
5. Properly optioned, the BMW 535i xDrive came to about $75,000 list. The Acura was about $45,000. I don't think the BMW is $30,000 better.

After 4,200 miles in 14 weeks, the TL has been trouble-free.

I don't much care for the TL's body design. The BMW was OK. (I like Audi best.)
The interiors are so different. I liked the Acura more. (I like Audi best.)
I am displeased with the TL's severely compromised forward visibility and rear visibility. Tiny windows and wide pillars can dangerously impair a driver's view.

We just completed a 1200 mile, ten-day trip. For a 194" car, the TL's trunk is woefully undersized, hard to load because of the high liftover and small opening—watch out for the pointed bottom of the deck lid!—and oddly shaped.

The Acura's seats are comfortable and supportive, the sound system is excellent, and the car is responsive and fun to drive because I bought Continental ContiExtreme DW summer tires to replace the mediocre Goodyear all-season tires, which were noisy, had low grip, and were not smooth riding.

I would consider another Acura in 20 months if the new body has better visibility, a folding back seat, and a larger, easy to load trunk.

omaralt

Your paying $725/month for a TL???

KingMota

I currently own a 2008 535xi. Today I put a deposit down on a 2012 SH-AWD w/ Tech so my comments are based about 1 1/2 hours of test drives. I set a price ceiling of $45k so I shopped new cars like TL, G, CTS, Lacrosse, A4 and used cars like 535xi, E350 4matic, M37, S4 and MKS. My priorities were AWD, engine performance, handling, comfortable/supportive seats, good looks, classy interior, nav/stereo, rear seat room, expected reliability and brand perception (I am an executive). It is hard to beat the engine of the 535 but the xi handling on 2010 and older is only OK (versus sport suspension on RWD 535 being excellent). I've heard the L7 stereo on the 535 is really good but couldn't find one with 100 miles. The good/bad about the 5 series is the vast array of feature combinations but I was unable to find a 2010 535xi CPO that has sport, L7, anthracite bamboo trim and the color combination I wanted. For me the TL has far better electronics that a base 535xi, more supportive seats (but maybe slightly less comfortable) and better handling. The throttle response is better on TL versus standard mode on 535 and comparable to sport mode on 535. I'll probably miss the perceived status of owning a BMW (only a little) but I won't miss (at least for me) the constant trips to service center. The G37 didn't end up being considered as much as I expected mainly because I couldn't find a sport model in the color I wanted. Maybe I'm weird, but I always want the most sporty version of the car model I buy. I'm probably influenced more than I should be by what I read on car forums. As a BMW 535xi series owner you always feel like a second class citizen versus the 535 RWD ownwers and particularly the 550 or M5 owners.

PsychDoc

Brief update. 900 miles and the car is perfect. I will say that there is a serious learning curve to fully appreciate and utilize all the features and computer driven menus. It's not bad, but it's far from intuitive in some cases. The radio "preset" buttons deserve special mention for their flexibility as they are not simply radio presets. Rather, they can be used to store anything at all available in the car. This includes addresses, phone numbers, all radio presets, etc. It really is very clever and it gives the driver very easy access to myriad settings and features. As I'm still in the break-in period I haven't had an opportunity to really see what this beast can do but it feels amazingly powerful aith just a touch of the throttle. I have had no problems whatsoever with the car and it was delivered to me in 100% perfect condition. So far, so good. We'll see how it holds up after 30,000 miles or so.

jjsC5

Congratulations. I don't believe everything I hear about quality issues. I've got several friends who own, or have owned BMW's, and none of them has had any significant number of problems at all.

graphicguy

That's SWEEEEET!!!!!!!