Bearcat94

I'd say just thte fact that you can make a reasonable comparison between a $60 - $65k car and ~$45k TL speaks volumes about the TL.


Seemed like an even-handed, considered review to me Doc.

pickler

omg omg another bimmer vs tl thread

saturno_v

I agree with the law of dinishing returns and I proposed that concept myself however I do not totally agree with the Accord-TL-SH-AWD parallel versus the TL-535i xDrive

A fully loaded Accord V6 EX-L with satellite, tech and 18" rims costs (MSRP) 35.5K (I just configured one on the Honda website), just 9.5K off a TL-SH-AWD Tech Advance.

For that gap, which is basically half the gap between the TL SH-AWD and the above compared 535i xDrive you get not only a less refined tech and satellite package, interiors appointment and worse seats (with no cooling option) for the Accord but a more fundamental lack of technology equipment such as no AWD (let alone Torque Vectoring) and 25 less horses.

Personally I justify more the 9.5K between a fully loaded top of the line V6 Accord and the TL SH-AWD Tech Advance than the 18K between the TL SH-AWD and the 535i xDrive.

ll_22

I think it is a compliment to the TL to be closely compared with the 20K+ more 5-series.

There is no doubt it is simply not "worth" the 20k premium to Acura buyers, but that is part of its appeal to its buyers.

I do have to re-emphasize that it is simply unfair to compare handling in a 535xi to a FWD TL. the AWD is a better comarison although if you thought the FWD was "harsh" then maybe its a moot point.

BEAR-AvHistory

Which quickly zooms right up the post/view count. Hey, its good for keeping the forum active. PsychDoc nice review, glad you are happy with the new car.

jjsC5

Those must be some expensive 18" wheels you found. The most expensive list price Accord with Nav, leather and V6 is $31,800. And it is very (VERY) close in equipment to the base TL that lists for $36,900 if I remember right. In fact, equipment levels are almost identical except some minor stuff like memory.

OOOPS, just looked them up - you have to compare base to base without Nav to make a fair comparison. TL is $35,600 and Accord is $29,600 with V6 & Leather. Those cars have almost identical equipment and the difference is right at 20%.

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for coming back and writing up a nice objective 5.35 F10 vs TL comparison Doc.

I'm surprised on the Bose comments though; the Bose systems in the 2G TL and CL, honestly, were pretty bad. The ELS stuff is miles beyond it. There's "cheap" bose and then there's "bose" bose...lol. Always too pingy for me, I like my beats fast and my bass down low...bass down low...bass down low....oh crap, I've got that in my head now.

I've tried to antagonize the F10 5.35 I occasionally spot on the e-way into a little acceleration contest. I know the 09 SH-AWD hangs with my friend's stock 3.35 coupe to 100 with no issue....curious to see if they've pumped a little more pep into the new version and stepped it up for the bigger car.

Sounds like you're really enjoying the Bimmer; that interior is excellent, and I was really impressed by the lighting adding to a very classy car without being too boy-racer.

graphicguy

Agree with almost everything, except....the stereo in any BMW isn't nearly as good as the one in the TL (Tech).

I only test drove a 535, however (ended up buying a 335i coupe, automatic). So, I'm basing my comparisons against a 335i xDrive.

A/C in the TL is much better than what the BMW comes with. Above an ambient temp of about 90+ degrees outside, and the BMW is going to take a while to cool down. It will still get cold, it just take a little longer.

As the OP correctly points out, 5 minutes or so driving the TL, you've got the car's interior exactly where you want it. Plus, the TL controls the temp you set better (fan speed, vent use, etc).

Aside from that, while the TL suspension is good, it feels "floppy" in comparison to the 335i coupe. Plus, the TL does feel harsh on broken pavement in comparison, too.

i-Drive has dramatically improved. You have buttons for just about everything (Nav, Radio, Phone, CD, etc). i-Drive screen looks good, but you have to get used to it when compared to the TL's screen (which looks a bit dated with the graphics compared to iDrive.

As much as people complain about the TL's buttons, I found the center stack to be easy to master after a week or so. iDrive took me a couple of weeks, but it's now pretty slick. Plus, it's faster responding than the TL's (try scrolling through the iPod playlists and there's a huge difference, with the advantage going to BMW.

Ambient lighting is a really nice touch in the BMW. Quality of materials, fit and finish in the BMW is a step above the TL, too.

TL's seats are hands down better, with better support for spirited driving. BMW seats are flat. Don't know how big German butts are, but they'd have plenty of room in the BMW seats.

Where the 335i really shines, well....as the trade rags state, the money really went into the suspension and the drivetrain. The TL is fast. The 335i is faster, by a significant margin. Torque is everywhere and it's immediate. It delivers all over the rev range, too. The TL has to be wrung out to get into the power band. It makes really good sounds, too.

I've been trying to upset the suspension in the BMW. I can't. I hit broken pavement at extra legal speeds, and it just absorbs it and keeps on going. The TL crashes over broken pavement by comparison.

Close the door in the BMW and then the TL, you'll readily notice a quality that the TL doesn't yet have.

Fit and finish on the TL is exemplary. In the BMW, it's even better.

At the price point, the TL is hard to beat. Loaded up (including discounts), you'll spend about $8K more for a 335i xDrive.

Arguably, you'll get a better looking, better handling, better riding, better built, faster car in the BMW.

I wouldn't sneeze at getting another TL somewhere down the line, though.

BEAR-AvHistory

I don't think there is any change in the N55 single twin scroll turbo across the BMW line since it was introduced. The higher performance two turbo version N54 is only available in the 335IS, 1M & a few 2 seaters.

The next step up for the 5 series in the 400hp V8.

Glashub

Here's what I want to know. And I'm serious in the asking because I can't wrap my mind around it. How is it that the BMW can be superior in almost all areas from materials to solidity; yet it’s common knowledge that one should never buy or own a BMW with more than 50,000 miles. See, in mind, that superiority in quality should translate into longevity.

I’d like to know….not only why the cars don’t last but why they are consistently among the lowest rated in quality scores.

Not trying to cause a war. Just don’t get it. The only reason I can come up with is rather Machiavellian...built in obsolescence. But admittedly I'm a cynic and am probably wrong.

Stew4HD

Excellent question!!

saturno_v

I think I can answer to that...

German brands are absolute master at perceived quality in their interiors....they sprinkle touches of better materials in the right places to please the eyes and touch.....this is exactly what leave me astonished how so many people are fooled into thinking "oh it is in another league in terms of interior quality"....if you keep looking in the right spots you will see ton of cust cutting on a 5 series interiors......they may put fancier looking buttons around but look at the thickness of the door panels and in the area where they join the door frame...look at the thickness of the carpet in the trunk and so on....

For example, in the Audi A7 there is a very pleasing open more wood trim in the dash.......gorgeaous right??.....then look at the thickness of the door panels compared to the TL...look at the contouring of the back seats.....the A7 literally look flat and bland like any generic family sedan.

Reliability unfortunately is a quality that people cannot immediately touch...is not "emotional".....and the upscale German brands cater to people that mostly lease their cars and they do not keep it past 3 years or the warranty period......the used market customer is not part of the equation....actually the lack of long term reliability can be turned as a brag statement "if you want the best you need to pay the price"....

jasonwdp10

When I usually hear about BMW's problems, most of them are engine related, with some being electrical. I'd say that the cars are build to have a much more solid and substantial feel though, as the doors seem heavier, interior seems more substantial despite the somewhat bland bmw design (substantial feeling, looking), and engines are usually powerful and responsive. This doesn't necessarily mean the parts will work well together, were heavily tested for reliability, or last forever.

saturno_v

Accord Accord EX-L V6 with navigation + 2 available options for 18" wheels one at $2921 and the other at $2325

Ok., let's compare them......Accord EX-L V6 at $29,755 and TL base at $35,605, 20% difference.

With the TL you get iPod integration which I cannot find in the Accord spec sheets, 10 more HP, 1 extra gear, better seats, a little bit more refined stereo system.

The 18K gap between the TL SH-AWD and the mentioned 535 xDrive is like 40% with the TL still having some features that the bimmer does not have such as Torque Vectoring.

I'm sorry but any way you want to look at this, the gap between the Accord and the TL comparing similar features is way lower (and so more justified for me) than the gap between the TL and the 535i....

A stripper RWD 528i cost as much as the top of the line TL SH-AWD Tech Advance......amazing...

Do you think that is minor stuff when I have to pay a hefty premium for what should be better quality??


You hit the nail in the head there...."feel", "seem"....you need to scratch under the surface......if you lived in my same area I would love to take you for a tour of a 5 series at a BMW dealership and point to you at several cost cutting areas....

For example look at the door handles in the bimmer, how thin they are compared to the substantial ones of the TL....I do not let a couple of alluminum or wood trims pull wool in front of my eyes....


However, without the incentives, lease packages and ultra low interest rates, I would love to see how many people would really fork 18K more at normal average interest rates...

BEAR-AvHistory

My 330ci has 91K+ miles on it with about $500 in repair parts other then consumables. If I had serviced my TL for the first 4 years at the dealer oil changes etc alone would have eaten up that much or one brake job twice that.

That's not counting the recalls, TSB's & warranty work on the TL that the 330 did not require.

Now Honda is recalling 2.5 million cars for bad transmissions & another 1 million for bad airbags. Seems like any manufacturer can have problems.

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

BMW builds "regular intervalservice required" cars that the initial owner gets covered by with the purchase price.

Honda builds vehicles to run 100k, service, and run another 100k, but expecting maintenance type tasks to be out of pocket.

Obviously, anything mechanical will have it's unplanned failures.

It's two different logics.

That said, the used Honda product cost of ownership is going to be lower than the used BMW product just about every time....and if we're comparing $65,000 cars to $45,000 cars....there's a late model S2000 or Z4's worth of price difference there.

Edward'TLS

335i vs the TL : now we are back on the right track.

Pete2010

It's always a point of discussion, do you compare the TL to the 3 series (based on price) or 5 series (based on size).

The TL moved upmarket from the 3G in both size, features and price, the next or 2 generations out may get closer to the 5 Series in size, price and options, but that is without knowing what is happening to the RL.

Glashub

So you're saying your BMW has never needed a brake job? BMW never has TSB's or warranty work needed? You say $500 excluding "consumables" and then list "oil changes" for the TL. Isn't an oil change a consumable?

The proof is in the data. Top List in the data base -

2006 Bmw 330I Permalink
AIR BAGS:FRONTAL

Date received by NHTSA: Jan. 11, 2011Incident date: Oct. 25, 2010
City: ChandlerState: AZ
Injuries: None reportedFatalities: None reportedCrash: Fire:
Description:
I OWN A 2006 BMW 330I 6CYLINDER ENGINE. MY CAR HAS 68K MILES AND HAS DEVELOPED A PROBLEM IWTH ... [More]THE PASSENGER SIDE AIR BAG SENSOR CAUSING A MALFUNCTION. ALTHOUGH THIS VEHICLE HAS BEEN LISTED AS HAVING THIS PROBLEM, BMW DENIES MY PARTICULAR VIN WAS INCLUDED IN THE RECALL AND WANTS TO MAKE ME RESPONSIBLE. THERE ARE TONS OF 2006 BMW 330I OWNERS WITH THE SAME ISSUE LISTED ON THIS SITE WHO'S SAFETY IS IN JEOPARDY. PLEASE MAKE BMW RESPONSIBLE TO MAKE OUR CARS SAFE.


I beg you to click below and search BMW vs. TL to your hearts content. The U.S. government's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) allows the public to file complaints about vehicles and transportation-related equipment.

http://projects.latimes.com/nhtsa/

omaralt

i cant believe we have another one of these retarded threads; but whatever i'll play

the interior on the 5 is gorgeous; definitely in a whole different league. dont get me wrong the TL is very nice; but the 5 is just nicer. 9 out of 10 people will agree with me. the 5 also offers many options that the TL doesnt offer (HUD, night vision, radar cruise control, etc, etc). these are options that are offered on cars of this stature. these are things that people see, touch, and get to crazy over. what does the TL offer that the 5 doesnt (thats constantly being mentioned..) torque vectoring.. oohh.. i'm sure most of the people on the street know what that is. only a few gear heads like ourselves will ever enjoy torque vectoring.

money being no object the the majority of people will pick the 5 over the TL; thats just how it is; it's a more upscale car. i dunno what saturno_v is smoking but i definitely dont see any cost cutting in the 5; the doors are heavy; nice soft surfaces everywhere, etc. who gives a shit if there is thin carpet in the trunk, are you serious?? stop being a blind acura fan boy and give credit where its due. the TL is a great value and a lot of fun; but lets be real and realize that the 5 is in a different league

Stew4HD

Hey, what about Lambourghini v Corvette??? IMO, this discussion (and ALL the others of the same title) are like that. It's not an apples to apples comparison but a few still want to put them side by side.. and are shocked that the 5 has nicer appointments... IT SHOULD!!It costs plenty more.

Yes, there are lots of option that can be added to the 5 not offered in the TL.. pay for it and get one.... again.. yawn... next..

omaralt

lol thats exactly my point they are in two different leagues and i have no idea why people keep coming back here comparing the two?? i would have loved to get the 550i. 400 hp that can be upped to 496 hp and 573 lb/ft with a dinan tune. but it's gonna cost $75K to get there...so it's really not in the same ball park as the TL. as i get older and richer (hopefully ) i'll upgrade. for the money the TL just cant be beat

winstrolvtec

I agree. While I would never disagree with that concept or theory, it doesn't pertain too well to this case, as it's a bit of a stretch IMO. For simplicity, I wouldn't even go as far as to compare the Accord V6 EX-L navi (w deck lid spoiler) to the SH advance, the more comparable TL model is simply the FWD tech IMO, similar to how the parallel is the SH and 535ix and not the 550ix.

Based on this Accord and TL model instead, there is only $7k cost difference which can potentially becomes less as there is more room to come down on a TL price than there is an Accord (this potentially applies to the 5 vs the TL as well). I think that premium is worth it and even one who doesn't think all of it is, would have to debate over the extra one or two thousand that they maybe didn't feel was, which is very easy to swallow compared to something like an extra $10k that they didn't feel was worth it instead. It's a lot easier to objectively justify and that premium is better represented between these two.

To me that "move up" between the Accord and TL is about as much of a move up as there is between a TL SH and comparable 535ix, yet there is not a $7k cost difference between them. And to even give the benefit of the doubt that the 5 is more of a move up, it's not even a $10k or $12k difference, more like $20k or close enough to it.

I'm all for the law of deminishing returns and paying for something if you feel it's worth it but at some point you do have to draw a line and look around and try to decipher what is and isn't worth it outside of theory, willingness, or preference because there are many who would have no problem handing over more money for the wrong reasons and those who would gladly take it and be the ones charging more for it at the same time.

Having said that, I do understand that there are not a whole lot of lower cost alternatives to a well equipped 535ix type of vehicle so you are almost forced to pay if that is what you want and like. Don't get me wrong, I really do like the car but I think $7k -$10k is a reasonable number for a comparably equipped 535ix over a TL SH tech or advance and I am being generous.

My logic behind this (and maybe I am wrong) but there is no way the TL would need another $20k attached to it to be on equal footing with a comparable 5 series. I know Acura could build a car every bit as good if not better than a comparably equipped 535ix for around $55k, undercutting it by around $10k but unfortunately they don't and while the current RL is close, it has been around too long.

The gap between the 5 and TL is almost closed when you add $6k for the cost of an RL tech package and what it adds over the TL. Lets add $4k to that amount for good measure, to fill in any little voids needed to be fully competitive, and we have the same product but with Honda reliability and resale for a realistic $10k less.

saturno_v

Hmm, did you run an opinion poll or something??

The 5 offers few bells and whistles if you dearly pay for....the totally useless HUD (in my opinion) was offered already on mainstram GM cars since the ealry 90's, I had one in a Grand Prix that I drove for a while and it was a pure "glitter" feature without any practical usefulness...


There you go.....exactly......many people stops at bells and whistles, not more fundamental stuff.....if you drive more and read less company brochures, you would notice how TV drives...

The last poll that was run on here (so ok not exactly an impartial site, still....) the TL actually won over the 535i...so do not assume and jump to conclusions.

You should read less marketing material and magazines and learn about cars more......someone that says that a TL cannot be compared to a 528 or a 535 is really smoking something....the 550i is a different story....

You confirm what I said before...some nice touches in the right spots then they can cut cost elsewhere without many people noticing it.....if you live in my area I can point at several cost cutting measures on the 5 series, if you can understand them in the first place....

Me a "blind Acura fan"?? Sounds new to me since the TL is my first Acura and probably my last......read and repeat 100 times, "the 528 and the 535 is not in a different league compared to the TL".....

Another factor most of people ignore because they simply do not know the concept of economy of scale is that the TL is probably disproportionally cheaper compared to a similar 5 Series because it shares the same chassis and main components with the mainstrem Accord which is produced in mass numbers so reducing the overall development costs....

The usual question also for Omaral which claim to own a 2012 TL SH-AWD Advance.....if you think the BMW is such a better car "in a different league" as you state why did you not buy it instead of the TL??? And please do not tell me is about cost.......if you think the Bimmer is better you could have waited a bit more to increase your budget......it is a doable jump if you really think is worth the money and the running cost of the two cars are the same...


Maybe I'm totally wrong and I jump to conclusion but I can only imagine 3 things at the moment

1) You do not really own a TL SH-AWD

2) It is in your household but is not your car nor you personally paid for it

3) You can barely afford the lease payment for a TL so the Bimmer is totally out of your range

Which is it???

scv76

People,
For most who would buy the BMW, the cost difference between the TL and BMW is not of concern. 20K to them is like 2K for others.
You will reach a point in your life where 20K is no biggie.

winstrolvtec

Yes, they are not necessarily direct competitors but different leagues is a bit of an exaggeration. A TL SH and comparable 535xi are in the same league, the TL is just on the practice squad and the 5 is on an active roster. The two are not even really a full segment apart, more like half. We are not talking about an Accord or Camry compared to a 5 series.

As far as the other trims, that's true but why stop at the 550, why not the next M5? Lets not forget there are also plenty of base 528's to go with the loaded 550's. The truth of the matter is not every brand makes a car for every slot. So when someone compares a 5 and TL, that doesn't automatically mean a TL SH advance and loaded 550i or M5.

The RL doesn't have anything to compete with a 550 or M5 but as a whole, people don't resist the idea that they compete or can be compared but you would compare what is appropriate, which would also be a comparably equipped 535ix. Acura doesn't have a wide range of vehicle trims but that doesn't mean they can't compete with what trims theirs better align with and an M5 doesn't speak for a 528. They are not the same and they don't compete or compare with the same exact cars.

billpan

I don't understand why some 4G owners seem to take it personally that the 5 series is a level above the TL. It should be for the price difference. I owned an Accord for 13 years, a 2006 528xi for two years and the 4G for one year until I went back to a BMW. I currently own a 535i. Acuras make very reliable, upscale cars but I missed the overall refinement of the BMW ride, the available torque in all RPM ranges and the overall solid feel. I know it's more expensive to maintain but I love the ride. I'm not knocking the TL at all. It's a great car for the money but IMO, the 5 series is in a different league (and it should be for the price).

Franco2112

I'm tired of BMW on this board!

omaralt

you are wrong.. the BMW is about $20K more than i wanted to spend. when i get a car i dont want to get a stripped version; so to get what i wanted from bmw i would be paying north of $60K... not acceptable to me. my budget was set at $40K and i came very close to it. i live on my own and paid for my own car, and i didnt lease the car either... and honestly i have nothing to prove here; i've posted pics of my car but sure buddy you can believe what you want

maybe i'm not as rich as most people here but $20K is a significant difference; i dont only look at the monthly payment difference but the overall cost. i'm not in a position right now to buy a $60K car

i completely agree with you and really what your saying is my point; there is no reason to compare them because most people buying the 5 series are NOT cross shopping the TL; they are in different categories. those buying the 5 are cross shopping with the A6/A7, mercedes E class, and possible the jaguar XF

BEAR-AvHistory

[QUOTE=Glashub;13150726]So you're saying your BMW has never needed a brake job? BMW never has TSB's or warranty work needed? You say $500 excluding "consumables" and then list "oil changes" for the TL. Isn't an oil change a consumable?

I did not have to pay for any consumables until the BMW warranty ran out @ 4 years....on the TL I had to pay for them from day 1.

My out of pocket for the first 4 years was $0 on the BMW. My TL out of pocket during the first 4 years, included oil/air/cabin filters, oil, 2 sets of brake disks, 6 pairs of brake pads, 4 sets of wiper blades.

Not sure what the dealer would charge since I do my own work but I know guys on this site were quoting $1,000+ for Brembo's & maybe a $100+ every time they went in for regular maintenance.

Since the first 4 years my out of pocket on the BMW has been about $500 not counting consumables which I now have to pay for same as the TL.

The $500 was for 4 O2 sensors which went down at 75K miles which seems to be about what you get out of them on a 3 series & a valve cover gasket. No labor since I do my own work.

Tires on both cars were a wash.

For so far the BMW had 0 recalls or TSB's that I am aware of.

The TL was recalled for power steering, wiper motor & one other thing I can't remember. 3rd & reverse gears assemblies on the 6MT were replaced at 22K miles through a TSB. Left rear light assembly failed after 3 weeks & was replaced under warranty. Blue Tooth failed a year ago & unit was replaced under warranty. All these issues are documented contemporaneously in the 3G forum. My first posts there were about the tail light.

BTW you listed an air bag complaint against BMW but not some of the 2010 Acura's that have an airbag recall. Must be part of the 900,000 Honda air bags recalled. The other interesting thing about Honda is the only major assembly built by Honda for cars manufactured in the US are the Transmissions. last recall was for 2.5 million transmissions. The 2011 recalls for Honda exceed 10 years total US car deliveries for BMW.

This is after the prior generations 5AT transmission disaster that Honda did not acknowledge till class action law suits were being prepared. IIRC it took more then a few years for Honda to stand up for the 6MT 3rd gear problem.

saturno_v

To be precise they belong exactly in the same segment "midsize luxury sedan"....maybe is a shock for someone but it is.....

Can it get more clearer than this stat?? Hopefully we can put the issue to rest once and for all....they belong to the same category other than price....to give an example for the really dense....the Aston Martin Rapide cost almost double compared to a Porsche Panamera...but they belong to the same category (luxury 4 door coupe with a hatch)




]

Amen brother......I see plenty of 528i with their Garmin GPS with a suction cup on the windshield.....that does not make them more upscale compared to my TL SH-AWD Tech

The RL, as you can see from the stat, competes exactly in the same category of the TL (Midsize Luxury Sedan) and frankly this is absurd on the part of Acura...the RL should either die or be significanly pushed upscale.

It really baffles me how there can be currently TL owners that think that a 5 Series is such better car but they still own the TL....either 1) they do not understand anything about cars and are confused or 2) They don't know how to buy cars.....the price gap is not that unsormountable if you really think the Bavarian is "in another league"....worse case scenario wait one or two years if you need to increase your budget...or 3) The can barely afford a lease payment for the TL.....so they should not own one in the first place...but that is another story....

I can understand if current 5 series owners tell me that their car in "in another league", after all they defend what they own and made their choice according with their needs.....a current TL owner that tell me that is an enigma to me....

jjsC5

You have a whopping 14 posts in your two months or so of being a member of this forum. And one of them is right here on this thread that the title should have been a dead give away that it was a BMW comparison thread. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that maybe you thought that a "535xi" is an Acura.

saturno_v

I do not really care if people think that the 5 is superior....and yes overall it is if you take the entire 5 lineup which includes the 550i and the upcoming M5....but when we talk about 528-535 is simply not true....simple as that...I posted I don't know how many time the sales stats that slot the 2 cars in the same category.

Your TL SH-AWD advance retail for 46K......you could wait one or 2 years and probably you could put your butt on a 535i for the same monthly payment...or better you could buy a CPO off lease F10 probably for less than your TL so you do not really think that the 535 is worth the price difference, simple as that....


Sorry but if I buy a 45K car, means that I can wait to spend 15-20 more if I think the other car is "in a different league".....or I buy slightly used...on the other side if I think that the extra money give me only few marginal bells and whistles it's a different story.....

Running costs between the two cars are similar.

At least 4 TL SH-AWD owners on this board cross shopped the 5 Series and two 535 xDrive owner that I know (one is my work colleague) cross shopped the TL SH-AWD...if I remember correctly you first bought a FWD TL and you got the SH-AWD only when the dealer offered and astonishing deal...
I know another couple of 5 series owners that would never consider the TL simply because they drive the RWD version and want only RWD cars...so for some specific technical reason

I never owned a Pontiac Grand Prix, I just drove it for a while....ohh so we go down on the colors and the pertinent info...well that Grand Prix had all the pertinent info too...and a nice easily readable green color.......I really suspect you are brand blinded from your reasoning...

So the new Mazda 6 has 6 speed automatic, blind spot monitoring system and active cruise control for MY 2012...the Kia Optima is even better with cooled seats, cooled glovebox, and stitched dashboard trims in addition to that.....so that put the Optima and the Mazda 6 in another category compared to the Accord which lacks these options?? They are "in another league"?? What about it?? Can we say brand blinded?? yes we can I suspect.....

They have lots of bearing my friend...quality is what you see and what you do not you see....I give you a very simple example...thickness and solid feeling of door panel handles between the TL and the 5 Series...but you were probably busy drooling over couple of alluminum trims and the HUD colors so you did not notice them.

Franco2112

The thread is still irrelevant. Heard it before. Apples to apples and so on! No comparison. Just letting my voice be heard. And by the way post numbers don't matter.

winstrolvtec

Believe me, you are preaching to choir but I know there are many who use perceived level of luxury and price as a basis for a "segment" whether we agree with that or not. I was really speaking in that context but since we are on the subject, I don't really like this grouping because it often puts apples up against oranges with little consideration for how the cars actually compare based on how they are made up with things like drivetrain, size, weight, output, etc.

People start comparing cars and draw premature conclusions that lack sufficient considerations where one might be a FWD or AWD luxury mid size and the other is a RWD luxury compact and that is really not fair to either as they do have different abilities, customer basis, and purposes, etc.

Especially when it comes to magazine comparos because they throw anything together and don't often get into space, comfort, cargo, value, all weather drivability, etc so (for example) the RWD compact will always be made out to better as a whole when it's usually only better for performance purposes and on the other side of that, in a more real world, non-enthusiast basis, the compact is generally too small, limited space, too sporty, etc, etc.

Or as another example, when they pit the TL SH (a bigger heavier mid size AWD) against a RWD compact and how it may be a better handling car but lacks the feel, balance, and acceleration, feels heavy at times, etc, when you really shouldn't compare the two in this manner in the first place and being a different category of car, those things should be expected to a degree.

RWD compacts go with RWD compacts, FWD mid size sedans go with FWD mid size sedans, and so on and so forth. There is and always has been lower end offering and higher end offerings out of each group. The A6 FWD is a high end FWD luxury mid, the ES and TL FWD would be the lower end, a TL SH is a lower end luxury mid size AWD, the 535ix would be a higher end version of this type of car.

I think everybody knows that the TL is not as luxurious a car and the 5's interior is a level better, that it has higher end features available and a V8 and M trim (eventually), so I don't exactly know whey there is so much opposition in comparing the two. It's not like people are going to somehow confuse this into thinking the TL is an equal luxury vehicle to a 5 series for $20k less.

I have never heard that before and I don't think anyone would ever come away with that from reading these threads but many still don't seem to understand why you would group these cars (TL SH, 535ix) together in the first place and also why you wouldn't maybe group the TL with something else even if it was closer in price or perceived luxury. There is no right or wrong, it's just a matter of perspective but what we do need is some better understanding of the different perspectives in these types of threads specifically.

Price usually dictates the amount of luxury and features and the luxury and refinement theme is usually simply more, less, or about the same compared to the other car, easy enough. Great, but don't people want to look past that as well? I am not getting any info from the aspects of luxury and price telling me about how the areas of performance, reliability, resale, value proposition, safety, and maintenance (etc) relate when it comes to the two cars. The only way to get that is to compare them.

It's an innocent comparison based on things like similarities in size, weight, output, performance, drivetrain, and features, etc, that goes further than just price and luxury which is usually automatically pre-established. Nothing more, nothing less so it's not off base.

saturno_v

You are absolutely right there, unfortunately the magazines with their ad revenue priorities get things very murky and confuse people that do now have solid solid automotive understanding...

I noticed that the 4G TL is particularly "difficult" for them to place it as price-slot focused as they are...they put it all over the place...some dare to compare it (correctly in my view) with the low-mid range of the 5 Series others put it against clearly lower tier products such as the Passat CC 2.0 turbo!!!

You hear it all.....some people with a straight face says that the TL cannot compete with the 5 series because is a FWD car while the 5 is a RWD....but they have no qualms putting the Bimmer together with the Audi A6 which has an entry level FWD version and the Quattro version...exactly like the TL.

The Nissan Maxima should be considered a mide size luxury car as well but because of the mainstream brand it doesn't get the recognition while the Hyundai Genesis does....

You see, all of this is confusing especially for people that do not have the ability to look at things by themselves

Nobody did not recognize that a fully loaded 535 has higher end features than a TL.....is the "in another league" comment which is totally inappropriate....

You see when someone that claim to appreciate Torque Vectoring put TV and HUD at the same level is disheartening....

I remember an ilarious discussion with someone owning an Acura TSX and blabbering all the times about how superior the Audi A4 was, the inferiority of the FWD architecture (can you believe that?? He forgot that the base A4 is FWD), the tirade about "a superior car is not only a collection of options checklist"....when i confronted him and told him "why you did not buy an A4?? they are very close in price with your TSX" he replied, completely contraddicting himself "You know I did not want to get a stripped version, I "need" more accessories".......when you deal with people like that you cannot have an informed discussion I'm afraid.....

Glashub

[quote=BEAR-AvHistory;13151080]You keep going on about Acura this, Honda that like its the evil empire but the proof is in the database!!! Look at what real BMW owners are saying and the frequency with which they say it compared to Acura. Check it out. You keep posting but are avoiding the database, the intelligence, the proof in the pudding. Let the database teach you what is really going on for most BMW owners. I think you might come away feeling like you're one of the lucky ones.

These are people in so much pain they take time out of thier lives to check into the database. Compare Acura to BMW.

The U.S. government's National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) allows the public to file complaints about vehicles and transportation-related equipment.

http://projects.latimes.com/nhtsa/
__________________

Glashub

Honda airbag recall affects cars from 2001 - 2003. THERE ARE FEW IF ANY 2001 - 2003 BMW'S ON THE ROAD!
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011...onal-vehicles/

Transmisson recall link below but no Acuras recalled. - "Honda provided a more specific explanation of the problem, saying the transmission shaft bearing "can be damaged if the transmission is quickly shifted between each of the reverse, neutral and drive positions, as may be done in an attempt to dislodge a vehicle stuck in mud or snow. If the bearing is damaged in this unusual scenario, it can cause the engine to stall or lead to difficulty engaging the parking
gear."

http://www.insideline.com/honda/acco...-software.html

YetiTL

Thank you PsychDoc for the nice review. Now if only we could stay more on topic...

BEAR-AvHistory

DETROIT | Fri Aug 5, 2011 2:04pm EDT

DETROIT (Reuters) - Honda Motor Co Ltd will recall 2.49 million cars, small SUVs and minivans worldwide, including its popular Accord sedan, to repair a software problem that could damage the automatic transmission.

The recall includes 1.5 million vehicles in the United States, about 760,000 in China and 135,142 in Canada, the automaker said on Friday.

This week, Consumer Reports said it was not recommending the 2012 Honda Civic. This led some industry analysts to ask if that was a symptom of larger problems at the automaker.


Submitted by Sandy Smith on 2010-05-01

American Honda Motor Company announced yesterday that it is recalling 167,000 Acura TSX cars built between 2004 and 2008 because of a hose defect that could cause a fire.

Posted Apr 13th 2010 6:01PM

It's only been on the market since December, but the 2010 Acura ZDX has already gotten its first official recall. According to AutoWeek, Acura believes that less than two percent of the 1,850 ZDXs built so far were assembled with a dashboard material that was incorrectly cut. The problem could cause the passenger-side front airbag to deploy improperly.

I must really be lucky, 330Ci is a 2004

On the perceived quality thing. One of the guys was talking, I believe, about thicker door handles. Not sure what handles & my TL is gone but my new BMW has door handles about as think as those on my Expedition which also has a MSRP in the $50+ range so I guess I am OK there. Also when I touch the handle the car unlocks & the alarm shuts down. The reverse happens when I shut the door, pretty slick.

Speaking about quality one interesting thing I do remember about my TL a 3G, not sure it applies to the 4G, was that when you opened the front door the hinges were securely fastened to the steel bulkhead, which is a good thing.

The bad thing is from the hinge mounting point out to the fender skin the space was filled in by expanded foam (beer cooler stuff) painted body color. All my other cars even my old '98 pickup truck have a steel bulkhead boxing in this section all the way out to the fender skin.