PsychDoc

You are most welcome Yeti. At the end of the day I think a discussion like this advances all of our needs because it forces us to consider things we may not have fully appreciated.

Plus, while we may be "preaching to the choir" to one another (because we are all relatively knowledgeable about cars), think how impressed our friends and relatives are when they come to us for advice (something that I find happens pretty frequently) and find that we are able to give them details and information that BMW or Acura sales people probably have no idea about. I generally find that folks like us know infinitely more that the salespeople we buy vehicles from.

omaralt

Just FYI when I was shopping for a car I cross shopped the g37 and maxima. Those are direct competitors. Why do we never see comparisons with those cars? Its always with the 5 series..

saturno_v

......because people keep starting threads about BMW and the 5 series.....

I totally agree that the Maxima should be considered a direct competitor of the FWD TL, absolutely......while I do not see the G37 a functional competitor other than price....

I see the FWD Audi A6 more of a competitor of the FWD TL and the Maxima than the G37 being a competitor of the TL....

jjsC5

A6 to Acura? Have you priced an A6? Not all that close. The A4 would clearly be the one most people would cross shop.

And you don't see a G37 as a competitor? I'd bet you are about the only one. I consider them to be the closest of competitors. In 2004 I traded a G35 for a TL. And if the current G37 wasn't past it's expire date I would have seriously considered it instead of the current TL we have.

BTW, I've owned two Maximas several years ago, but the past couple of generations have been real disappointments to me.

omaralt

the A6 is not a direct competitor (some people may cross shop) because it's priced about $10-15K more comparably equipped. the G37 is actually the closest competitor IMO since it can be had in AWD

the other thing you need to keep in mind is that most of the people living in the south dont care about which wheels drive the car. those of us that dont drive in snow dont care about AWD, RWD, or FWD. when i bought my TL the dealer did not have any other Sh-awd other than the 6spd manual that i bought because it has to be in that trim. no auto awd's at all. the sales guy says nobody wants them since it doesnt snow here

graphicguy

We're talking about opinion here, right?

Frankly, given a choice between a 328i xDrive or 528i xDrive vs a TL SH AWD?

I'd choose the TL SH-AWD, hands down. It's just a better performer than those cars.

I see the same debates with other x28i BMW owners vs the BMW x35i owners.

To me, the x35i additional cost is worth it for the performance boost by itself over the x28i.

You can spend mid-$40s on a loaded 328i xDrive, or low $50s on a 528i xDrive. Hands down, I'd choose a high $30s TL SH AWD w/Tech over either of those cars, for the same performance reasons.

I still like coming to this board since somewhere in my future, I believe I'll own another TL.

saturno_v

The FWD TL base is 35.5K and the base FWD A6 is 41.5K...6K difference...not that much.....both are midsize luxury cars, same segment.....price is one thing, segment is another...you guys focus too much on price difference, and yes many people shop on price that doesn't mean that the car they shop belong to the same category...A4 and G37 are smaller than the TL and you can clearly feel it inside...

No I do not see it a competitor even if many people cross shop them (I did it too by the way)...they are close in price (with the TL being more expensive when similarly equipped) but that's about it.....

I owned the fifth generation with the 3.5 liter engine and it has been a terrific car...in almost 8 years I did not change even a light bulb, dead reliable.
In 2002 it was a tremendous sport sedan for the money...6 speed manual, limited slip diff, HID lights, in dash navigation with bird view, Bose premium stereo system that was one of the best in class.
Even if you hit all the options checklist on a BMW 530i (E39) you were still short of some of a fully loaded Maxima features....not too mention the performance difference...

Here we agree totally....I find that slotting two similar sedan (size, features, power) in different category because one is FWD and another is RWD is frankly stupid but this is what magazines do and that somehow convinced the public in doing it too.
A properly designed FWD can be ton of fun too.....I had very good time with my Maxima....I can guarantee that on our wet twisty Northwest roads I had more fun than a 530i....

As I said before, I do not understand why the availability of a few more higher end options (again options not standard equipment) for example in the A6 or the 528 and 535 in the mind of some people make these cars belonging to an imaginary different category compared to the TL...they are not...I gave you already few examples...the new Mazda 6 or even better, the new Kia Optima and Hyundai Sonata outfeature (sometimes significantly) a top of the line Accord when fully loaded....does this make them belonging to a different category?? Clearly not...

Again, the problem here is with magazines....I remember when they tested the Mazda 6 V6 Grand Touring and they loved the car but find it a serious problem being a bit pricey compared to other car in the segment and that could make that car at "competitive disadvantage"....well guess what, it is a bit more pricey because offers some options that others don't and a more refined suspension setup than the competitors (except for the Accord which also has a double wishbone in the front).....C&D loved the sporty feeling, well you gotta pay for it....

jjsC5

The base Audi A6 has a 200hp four cylinder. That is not even worth talking about. Might as well compare that to a base TSX.

I just looked at the inventory at a dealer in Houston. The cheapest A6 they have in stock was over $50k, most expensive over 60K, and most of them were $55-57.

http://www.momentumaudi.net/all-inve....htm?search=a6

Call it a competitor to the TL if you'd like, but I'm betting you are in a very small minority who thinks that.

I stand by my other comments.

saturno_v

That is Audi choice to put a puny 4 cylinder turbocharged engine...the matter of fact is that the base A6 does exist....and I saw plenty of A6 Quattro at dealers at a 50-52K

Audi put the 4 Cylinder turbocharged engine on the base A6 only this year....up to last year the base FWD A6 had the 3.2 liter V6 engine with 265 HP and it did retail for $39K....

Same thing for the TL....I think I saw a base non Tech only twice....when I got my SH-AWD Tech the dealer had no non-Tech at all in stock (I was purely curious to see how the trunk lid did look like without the spoiler)

Many people shop on price non category....category is different.....while I don't know specifically for the A6 (the A6 is a very slow seller anyway), plenty of TL owners cross shopped the 5 Series and vice versa....

jjsC5

You say a lot of TL owners cross shopped a 5 series (and maybe an A6). The question is, how many 5 Series and A6 owners do you think shopped TL's? Think about that one for a minute.

saturno_v

Few of them I know personally as I already said before....

One of my wife's friend, an attorney, recently cross shopped the TL and the A7 (and other cars too) and went with the A7.....

jasonwdp10

People I know that want a bmw/audi/benz, usually end up with a bmw/audi/benz. These people, the ones I know, rarely "shop down". They want the badge/name, and could care less about features or engine sizes. Outside of this forum, I rarely hear people saying "oh man i want that sweet turbo 335/5 series" then end up with a TSX or TL.

If anything, they realize how expensive an optioned one is and either end up leasing or just buy a barebones 3 or 5 series, which is still a bmw and luxurious enough and prestigious to them. They don't care if there's nav or that the TL Tech's leather is softer, they drive a bmw, that's all that matters when you're talking prestige.

Clearly, the value minded people in this forum think differently.

PsychDoc

You're absolutely correct. I decided that I just wanted a move up and after that it was all about whether to get the new A6 or the 535xi. Nothing else even entered the picture. I think there's a lot more comparison "shopping up" than shopping down. For example, on the F10 boards you literally never hear a peep about the Infinity M, the CTS or Acura RL. It's like they simply don't exist. Hell, there's hardly a peep about the E-class or the Jaguar XF. But mention the A6 and you're going to have one hell of a lively discussion ranging from "Hope you're happy with your gussied up VW" to "Clearly the better vehicle" (with your expected variations on those themes). I think that once people have made up their minds that they want a BMW/Benz/Audi there is a Teutonic tunnel vision that sets in. The word 'Acura' is simply not part of that discussion.

saturno_v

You guys are correct, there is a good portion of people that are absolutely brand loyal/obsessed and would shop only BMW or Benz.....actually there is more cross shopping between Audi and the Japanese than these two because the Audi brand is simply not as strong as BMW or Mercedes.....Audi sales in the US simplyfall of a cliff beyond the entry level A4/Q5....

Audi is still perceived somewhat at the same level of Lexus, Infiniti or Acura....a premium division of a mainstream car company.....Mercedes and BMW do not have generalistic brand under them, they are considered more exclusive.

You hit the nail in the head...I see a lot of stripper 328i and 528i on the road.....

saturno_v

In addition to that, often this has little to do with income.....there are people with very high incomes, as high as the typical Bimmer or Benz shopper, that buy Acura (or any other premium brand for that matter) because they are more value conscious, because they are not brand focused or simply because they like other cars better ....they had Benz or Bimmer in the past now maybe they drive Acura or Infiniti or whatever and they may go back to the Germans in the future....I know plenty of them....

Not everyone stretch their last dollar on a car payment or work with an exact budget up to the cents....

Do not think that every German brand driver you see on the road drives only German for ever...some do some don't....

We got many ex-BMW drivers in this forum....at least they claimed to be....

jjsC5

I agree with you. I have some very good friends who have owned quite a few BMW's, M-B and Jags. You are right in that they get very laser focused on them.

I probably have some very tacky thoughts, but I agree with you. I see folks in 328s, 528s and the stripper M-B C classes and I could be wrong, but usually you just look at them and know they bought them as status symbols and they don't even look like they belong in them. I'd much rather have a top of the line TL than a bottom of the line something else.

saturno_v

The E Class is the highest selling midsize luxury sedan in the US, blowing past the 5 Series....and in some circles the Benz brand is still considered higher than a BMW...just to say...

About not looking at the Jag XF they do to themself a great disservice.....the XF is absolutely gorgeaous and very exclusive when you see one on the road....


However, that is just me but I definitely do not consider an A6 Quattro or a 535ix or even an A7 a step up from my TL.....the 550i, the upcoming Audi S7, the V8 Jaguar XF, The MB CLS or the M5 heck yes.....but trading an extremely competent AWD 6 cylinder 300 HP sport sedan for another is not much of a move up for me.....

Edward'TLS

In other words, it's not considered a move up when compared with the base-trim models of the A6, A7, or 5-series.

But it's considered a move up when compared now with the top-line-trim models (S6/S7/M5) of the same A6/A7/5-series family, which cost approx. twice at much as the SH TL.

saturno_v

In my personal opinion, yes....you get a significant bump up in power, a V8 engine and so on.....

So with the 528-535 I do not consider it a move up, the 550i yes.

A6 and A7 no, the upcoming V8 trim of the A6 and the S7 yes.....

I was extremely underwhelmed by the seats in the A7.....that would be a move down for me....I'm too spoiled by my TL seats...

PsychDoc

Just for the sake of clarity I test drove and priced the XF. Outside was beautiful, inside was a real disappointment and the technology was horribly out of date. And (here's the interesting part!) it was priced significantly under the 535xi with the packages I wanted. I could have bought the XF for about $4-5k less than the 535.

saturno_v

Do you mind to elaborate more about the disappointment, the out of date technology and the packages/options that you wanted in the XF??
I'm really curious, I love that car....

For example what are the significant more/better options you can have on a 535i xDrive compared to a TL SH-AWD Advance?? I know about the HUD, retractable mirrors and the night vision...probably few extra setting for seats adjustment/heating/cooling compared to the TL but what else more fundamental??

Steven Bell

iTrader: (2)

Wow, some great perspectives here! I love it that you've expanded outside BMW and Acura.

PsychDoc

The interior of the XF was very plain looking and the instrumentation had tiny markings and the overall use of space was very poor. The navigation screen was tiny and the display was about as good as you could expect in a $100 Tom Tom. No ability to send destinations to the car thru Google maps, no telematics that lets BMW automatically call for help if you get in an accident. The overall impression of the interior and the accompanying electronics was decidedly at least 5-7 years behind the BMW. It simply didn't have the same look of quality and attention to small details that you find in the BMW. As a value proposition it was a real steal. It listed for about $54k fully equipped. In fairness the XF is due for a major refresh due this fall and from what I understand, it's electronics are the primary target of that refresh.

scv76

isn't it just a ford?

Stew4HD

Actually, Ford sold Jaguar to TATA motors, an Indian company. They also own Land Rover.

jjsC5

You forgot to put a smiley or something after that sentence. I'm going to assume you were kidding. There are no parts in common with Fords. In fairness, while Ford owned Jaguar their quality improved dramatically.

Glashub

The XF is drop dead gorgeous imo. I have never sat in one or driven one but looking at it parked one day I was struck by the danish modern simplicity of the interior. Tata is well funded and growing so maybe they'll not only restore the brand but place it at the top of the pecking order again by investing smartly in the Jag auto line.

graphicguy

I agree. I did have a chance to drive an XF (highly discounted, 7K mile dealer demo I was thinking about). Jag has done a very nice job...probably the nicest car from a materials standpoint I've ever sat in.

Unfortunately, they still suffer from pretty bad resale. The one I was looking at stickered close to $50K. I could have probably bought it for around $39K, as a demo.

Really, the only way to compare the Acura to a BMW is to drive current versions of both. TLs are very nice cars. I loved mine.

Just understand, as you move up the ladder, the are differences you can see, and feel (you can tell where the BMW money went.....suspension and drivetrain). That doesn't make the TL a bad car.

Even the alleged "BMW killer" Infinitis can't really compare to the refinement of the BMWs.

Yeah, you can match some specs here and there. But, drive them and you'll understand why everyone chases BMW.

I like Acura's way of not chasing anyone. They just do their own thing. That's probably the biggest draw they have had for me.

saturno_v

I think you are wrong....the XF is based on the Ford DEW98 platform shared with the now defunct Lincoln LS and the Ford Thunderbird.

The V6 gasoline engine available in Europe is a derivative of the Ford Duratec and all the diesel engines are Ford.

The V8 was developed by Jaguar under Ford ownership and it was also used on the Lincoln LS and the Thunderbird.

Is not like that the very moment Tata took over, Jaguar immediately ceased to use Ford components....I would not be surprised if they still have agreement to share parts between the two companies in the future.

However I did look at several pics of the interiors of the XF and I have to agree with PsychDoc, the cabin look really outdated and too plain looking.....not appealing at all for me.....it has very nice looking seats and some luxury touches higher end than the 5 series like the stitched dashboard....

BEAR-AvHistory

The problem with that thought is high income people tend to have more then one car unless they are single. For these people the TL is generally the second or third car. The guy across the street has a white 4G AWD & a silver 2G Coupe but he also has a MB-E & Range Rover while his son drives a BMW.

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree on both these points. I wanted a Coupe so the only other car I seriously looked at when I bought the 335is was the 345hp G37-IPL.

They let me give it a good run & even take it home over night but the road feel just was not there. That being said the IPL is a very very nice car, maybe not cost justified over the G37S, but if not for the BMW I would have purchased it in a heartbeat.

Stew4HD

And the other type of high income folks that want to keep their $$ and still drive Corolla's and then there's those that buy WAY out of their means...

Really, what income is needed to be considered Bimmer worthy? If one can afford a $500-$900 car payment and can afford the loan.. then they are driving BMW's... *shrug*... what I am getting at is that car owners come from all over the place, even mid-upper range cars.

saturno_v

I did....as much as I wanted to find the BMW seemingly "magical" (too many) superiority, I found only marginally superior aspects here and there not worth the price premium....for me...

I would concede a slight edge to the 5 series in ride quality and sportiness only with the M Sport setup.....with regular suspension is frankly subpar and does not drive as a sport sedan at all....too floaty....the TL ride is truly better as a sport sedan compared to the standard 5....

I concede to BMW a superior automatic transmission (more gears, quicker), the automatic TL seems disappointing in acceleration numbers...but I drive a manual TL and it is one of the slickest buttery smooth stickshift I ever drove....really great...even BMW obsessed C&D recognized that the TL manual setup is superior to the Bimmer....which is something really incredible if you think where the gearbox is located from the lever in a TL compared to the BMW.

I also like the very torquey feel of the turbocharged BMW engine.......the J37 is super slick for a V6 but even here a slight edge also goes to the Bimmer....

To paraphrase you, you can see where BMW took the money from to develop the drivetrain and suspension.....seats....my biggest disappointment with the 5 series are the seats...truly subpar in that class...

I do not agree at all....BMW has a very slight edge on engines (again turbo and 6 inline is a killer combination) and a maybe a razor thin one in the automatic transmission (one extra gear)...interior design and richness is where BMW is put literally to shame....there is a sensation of luxury and sumptuousness on the Infiniti M that the 5 Series simply cannot match...

I find both the G and M as fun as the competing Bimmers without the hard ride...you should drive extensively both and figure out for yourself....

If Nissan slap couple of turbos in its VQ engine watch out...

Acura is doing a horrible job right now, the company doesn't really know what direction wants to go.....some mistakes are truly appalling to me....why no SH-AWD on the TSX?? Why not a coupe or a roadster?? What is the point of the RL??

The TL is truly an amazing sedan in its price range.....but I only saw once a TV commercial about it.......the brand simply does not communicate with the public....


Finally, is incredible how you can hear things around and discover that you have to put everything in perspective...I heard all the time on this forum that the TL was a slow seller, "a failure", "a disaster" and so on.....then I discover this (I know I posted before but it helps to clarify)




Year end sales in America for 2010, midsize luxury sedan....our beleaguered TL sold just a little bit more than 5000 units less than the 5 series.....and with only 2 versions (TL and TL SH-AWD) versus 5 versions for the 5 Series (528i, 535i, 535i xDrive, 550i and 550i xDrive)

I would say no bad for a "failure"

March sales, before the tsunami hit



So "everybody is chasing BMW" is an exaggeration...

Glashub

I have family that could afford to own several cars but have interests elsewhere and carry absolutely no debt.

They drive TL's. I'm not impressed by the number of cars people lease per household particularly since I know one can lease a BMW for less monthly than a TL.

Why do people equate German cars with money? I sold Rolls Royces and Jags for years....I know what people with real (old) money do with it and how they spend it.

saturno_v

I agree that the turbo inline 6 is intoxicating...but you have to live with the inferior BMW cabin thought....I need the look to.....and the G37 coupe is drop gorgeaous..so curvy......the 3 series is too bland...

saturno_v

Not really.....BMW is like any other manufacturer...very aggressive in financing, 0% interest, etc...if they want to sell......I suspect that the free maintenance program has much more to do with their ramp up in sales than any imaginary superiority.....

I hear how superior they are if you load them up to the gilt......still I see ton of stripper Bimmer on the road so.....

Whoever can afford an Acura or a Infiniti can afford a Bimmer...different strokes for different folks...

The Japs simply offer better value across the line with few rare exceptions...I may go the German route again in the future (I owned 2 Audis and BMW in the past)

Stew4HD

I find the 3 and 5 BMW sedans bland but do find the coupes sexy... I know.. beauty-beholder....

saturno_v

Is not like the 3 coupe is ugly...not at all.....the G37 just look even better...more aggressive....more pesonality...

BMW are formally very nice cars...the new 5 series is gorgeaous...but somewhat they leave me "cold", they do nto transmit emotions...look at the Infiniti M....all the curves.....very aggressive and elegant at the same time....

BEAR-AvHistory

So is the new Buick....but I have always liked functional simplicity....guess it goes back to my Morgan & Triumph days.

One of the things that irritated the crap out of me with my TL was having the tach offset in a 3 gauge cluster on a 6MT. I was glad that they fixed that on the 4G.

What I don't like about the BMW dash is the lack of an oil pressure gauge, the only saving grace is the presence of an oil temperature gauge.

I know you don't like the seats but I find my seats to be very comfortable & supportive especially the power bolsters that you can dial in/out for a nice secure fit regardless of your size & the lumbar support that moves both up/down & firm/soft.

I am not as big (6ft/210lbs) as some of the guys that complain about the cockpit but feel I fit the car just fine.

saturno_v

I would not put Buick and Infiniti in the same sentence....for everything!!

I find the ergonomic touch of the G with the instrument cluster moving with the steering wheel a very nice feature..a lot of thinking went into that cabin...

One think that irritate the heck out of me in the BMW is the iDrive, even the latest version...the ergonomic aspect of a car is fudamental for me...easy access....the Bimmer is not well thought out in this regard....I remember the too quick critic to the buttons in the center stack of the 4G TL.....but you master it in 2 days and you figure out how ergonomic it is...everything seems in the right place..even some journalist that initially criticized it, ended up loving it in the long term test of the car....

I rented a MB E Class in Italy this year.....their version of the iDrive is called "Command"....I did hate it.....too much back and forth, unnatural position of the big dial.....I could not wait to get back to my car....