graphicguy

Who's going to volunteer to tell those 123 folks who bought a SAAB that their car company has ceased functioning?

BEAR-AvHistory

Maybe you would not but a lot of people do like the new Buick..they sell like crazy to the new rich in China, more so I believe then the TL does. They hit 2 million cars sold in China this year, 1 million of those in the last 3 years.

Would be interesting to see how many in the US cross shopped the Buick/TL & went with the Buick since they are both about the same size, overall shape & have trick dashboards'. Seems like size & dashboards are important to some.

Have yet to figure out what the issue is with the new I-drive, got it working on my ride home from the dealer. It did not seem that hard to use, beside you can always talk to the car & skip the manual interface. The older version had too many screens to get where you wanted to go so I did not get it on the 330.

Agree on the G's cluster movement, wish I had that on the 3G because parts of the tach & speedo used to go missing when my seat was in a comfortable position.

saturno_v

It is true, Buick sells a lot in China for some reason...this is why GM decided to keep it around and kill Pontiac instead...which is a shame because after decades of forgettable cars, Pontiac was finally getting some good products like the G8.....for the North American market, in my opinion, it did make more sense to eliminate Buick and leaving Cadillac as premium offering....and leave Pontiac as a sporty brand.

Definitely better from before but still imposes some level of screen nesting and operate the dial when with the TL a lot of functions are just one easy touch away.....and I can have the GPS screen on and at the same time rely on the classic radio led monitor for basic audio info without switching from the GPS to the Audio menu.

And, like you, I use a lot the voice commands if I want to...

BEAR-AvHistory

I have a number of other interests outside of car land like martial arts, vintage aircraft aerobatics & deep-sea fishing. Its good to see guys here that are not totally wrapped up in cars like the car was their alter ego & proof of their self-worth.

Since I lived in the projects till I went to high school I really can't claim any pretensions to being from old money. If I was however, I could not personally see buying a Roller, I think I would do a Ferrari or Lambo instead.

As for Jaguar I got my first & last brand new one in 1992. The car was beautiful but the quality sucked. I lived in England at the time & it was a 4.0 V8 Sovereign. It would be the direct equivalent of the big 4 door imported to the US. If the spirit moves me will dig up & scan a shot of my Old English sheepdogs sticking out of the sunroof.

Personally I don't equate what people drive with money but it seems a lot of people on the forums are quick to make that judgment. I think too many are obsessed with the cost of cars & should just enjoy whatever they have at the time.

One of my most fun cars was a blue 1300cc Fiat 124 4 door when almost nobody in the US knew what Fiat was other then the really tiny ones in the movies.

Used to do the Long Island road rallies with it & driving looking out the side window in a turn was interesting. It did have a very very boring interior so looking outside was better.

BEAR-AvHistory

Not sure what you are saying here but when I am in nav mode I leave up my music screen. When I am required to make a turn based on my speed I get a "prepare to turn left" command then two more one at 700ft out with the final one just prior to the turn.

The system automatically softens the radio volume as the command are generated then goes back to the normal volume level.

Would have loved to get the last year of the GTO but it was out of sync with my buying cycle. Had a 66 GTO ram air tri-power 4MT. Brought my first daughter home from the maternity hospital in '67 in it.

jjsC5

"They hit 2 million cars sold in China this year, 1 million of those in the last 3 years"

Huh? How does that work?

saturno_v

I absolutely agree on everything.....I have aviation interests as well...I'm the one that I always say that if I was in the market for an extremely fast sports car I would get a Nissan GT-R and use the spared money I save from a performance comparable Ferrari or Lambo torwards a beautiful Lancair Propjet.....your comfortable four seater above 25.000 feet, no more TSA for short trips...that is real luxury.....same with you, I have other interests besides cars and I like nice vacations.....

saturno_v

I still can look at my map/messages/POI info and have the audio info at the same time...small thing but I like it...

That should be pretty much standard nowadays...

My old Pontiac is not all original but I do not care, I like it....is mothballed at the moment because I have only a two car garage...is the only car I own that is actually appreciating rather than depreciating....

cp3117

Thanks for the summary and initial impressions on the two cars PsychDoc. I believe other members like "PetesTL" and others that have moved up to the 535 from the TL also had similar impressions.

Your summary reminded me of a good friend of mine that purchased a 2G RL several years ago and although he obviously enjoyed the car he was also dissapointed after only a few months with the quality of the vehicle. This surprised me being the 2G RL was actually designed to compete with vehicles like the 535ix etc and not the TL, so to see your comments about the two isnt that surprising and its nice to see your enjoying your new ride.


Thats because your right.

These two vehicles are rarely cross shopped and the bar graph that is floating around many threads here is extremely misleading. While according to the EPA the TL is barely a midsize vehicle, Acura has always marketed the TL generally towards the entry level luxury vehicles like the 3 series, A4 etc and the entry mid level vehicles like the 528 etc. They have been doing this ever since the TL came around in the mid 90's.

The problem is you get a few people that like to Magazine race and dont realise that there is much more to a vehicle than a few specs from a magazine. This is why we always see these off the wall comparo's like TL vs Porsche, A7 etc etc. If we all shopped vehicles like this than many people looking at a 7 series etc should be walking into their closest Ford dealership and cross shopping the Taurus SHO, which we know doesnt happen.

saturno_v

....hmm because at least 4 members in this forum did that we know.....

"barely" doesn't exist in the EPA classification...it is a midsize sedan by all the measurement you care to look at.

The graph that is "floating around" is extremely clarifying...these are the real market numbers not "I hear say"..."I'm sure of this and that...", "the brother of the cousin of my friend did..."

....and what me and few people are saying that is different that that?? hmmm..................528i-535i yes, 550i no....


.....you mean people that actually fork the money, shop around and look at details?? These people??

Mixing up apples, oranges and walnuts here huh??

Taurus and 7 series.....right.....comparable gap like the one betwen a TL SH-AWD and a 535 xDrive.....please....

omaralt

One last time; people who are shopping for a 5 series do NOT cross shop the TL (for tr most part; there are exceptions). People are shopping for a TL may cross shop with the 5 and most end up with the tl (like myself) because of the higher cost of the bmw

BEAR-AvHistory

I think we are saying the same thing, other functions are alive, well & working regardless of what screen is up. If necessary I can go to a split screen.

saturno_v

Did you run a statistical poll?? Do you stop every 5 series driver and ask?? Please enlighten me...

You got initially a FWD TL and only got the SH-AWD only because on unbelievalbe deal was handed to you by the dealer (you caught him on a good day) when you tried to return the car...you are infact a marginal TL buyer already so forget the Bimmer....that does nto mean that everybody is like you...

BEAR-AvHistory

+1 When I got the TL I was cross shopping the Accord EX. I liked the 2 door but not the 4 door body. Car was to be used as a grandkids mover so I needed 4 doors. At the time I said it was costing me an extra $2500 per door to get the TL but it was really a good looking car.

saturno_v

from an official Acura Press release

================================================== =============

the 2012 TL competes with vehicles such as the Audi A4 and A6, BMW 3-Series and 5-Series, Infiniti G37 and M37, Lexus ES, GS and IS sedans, and the Mercedes-Benz C-Class and E-Class.

================================================== ================

http://hondanews.com/channels/acura-...ra-tl-overview

Is that clear or you need more info??

jasonwdp10

I think it's interesting how badly you want the TL to be compared to the 5 series. Let it go.

saturno_v

I don't really care....what is really interesting that if I put up some facts someone like you reply like you do, that "I want the TL to be", like it really matter to me...human nature is rather interesting...my only gripe is non factual information, just opinions that are passed as facts...I tend to be attentive to details....maybe it's my engineering nature...then I have to remember that I'm ona car forum so bullshit, emotions and opinions fly on these venues...however if this make you feel happy, let me say that in truth the TL is such an inferior car, I hope one day I will have the chance to own such an incredible superior machine....maybe I will see the light and elevate myself from automotive mediocrity...how dare Acura to claim that it competes to a 5 Series...are they crazy?? It's a shame...

Are you happy now??? It's better now??

Stew4HD

And why not? The ONLY thing that truly separates the 2, class-wise, is price. Functionally and most specifications, they are quite comparable.

saturno_v

I'm sorry but you are wrong....the 5 is so superior in every sense...my gosh are you kidding me?? have you ever sat in one?? It' like the time cease to exist......is pathetic how badly the TL is built, how less refined, it's just a wannabe....an overpriced Accord....unfortunately I could not afford a 535i so I had to get the TL....if I become rich one day I will buy a 535i...is my dream car....maybe will be my retirement gift...they should charge more for how superior it is....I'm serious...it's a steal...

jasonwdp10

Why not? I'm merely questioning his conquest to flood every "TL vs. XX car" thread with the same information and same arguments. No one, especially the new guys which haven't "felt the wrath" of these posts, can even make a reasonable "TL vs.XX car" thread because it will be bombarded with these same posts.

I learned long ago that marketing is marketing.

I've also used the "but but but but but but the TL competes with the 5 series.. it's on their press release yada yada" to help with arguments. Then I realized it's just marketing.

Acura also says the TL is the "most powerful acura ever" Technically, that's correct, since it bests the 300hp by other acuras. But can it break 5 seconds to 60? No. In most cases, they can't seem to figure out how to break 0-60 easily under 6 seconds.

They also throw around "technologically advanced" and "innovation" all over their press releases and website. How can a company that only introduced push button start in 2009, barely figured out a 6 speed auto in 2010 claim any of that? Again, marketing. I now either ignore it or give it less importance.

I never said the TL is inferior, nor did I say the 5 series is superior. but try making a TL vs 5 series thread in any other car forum anywhere, even in our own car talk, and see what the result is.

Stew4HD

Sure I have... I don't see the superiority you all see. I thought it look bland in comparison. Too much of a boat like feel.... but hey, to each their own. I sure didn't see it as worth the cost of the difference... now the 7 series.. yeah, now you are talking luxury.

If I was rich, the 5 would not be on my list, at all... 7, 8.. yeah

Stew4HD

Wow... a fricken mirror of the last 5 v TL thread.. going for 5+ pages? Wash rinse repeat...

The 5 is better
No it's not
yes it is
Not it's now
Are you serious?
yes
Dude, have you ever sat in one?
Yes, but I wasn't THAT impressed
Dude, waht's wrong with you?......... ..........

jasonwdp10

Not sure if that was sarcasm, but do you know what I mean when I told him to "let it go"? These threads will never end.

saturno_v

I know i know man...my TL is crap, I cannot wait to get rid of it....by the way the 6 speed manual does 0-60 in 5,2...

What do you suggest for me to move upscale??

Stew4HD

I am agreeing with you.. yes, that was sarcasm cuz it never ends.

jasonwdp10

um, yea i'll stop here.

saturno_v

Switching topic and on a serious note.....no xDrive for the upcoming M5 seems like, reading around....the car will be officially presented in Semptember....they only mention a Sport differential but no AWD option as initially thought....confirmed the Dual Clutch transmission...maybe a manual option later..

It lapped the Ring in 7.55, excellent time still not very far from the CTS-V which did it in 7,59....we will see if the Caddy will respond with an upgrade....

I kind of feel relieved....no xDrive so I do not have to drool after it!!!

Gorgeaous and very sporty looking...love the color...the right placed aggressive touches removed a bit of residual blandness...this is what I would call a significant step up

I really hope on an AWD version later on....

winstrolvtec

But at the same time, this is why we see comments that suggest the TL is bloated, too big and heavy, and slow, relative to cars like the 335, G37, etc. It's for the very same reasons, in people only magazine racing, that they don't consider that the TL is a mid size sedan with AWD (or FWD) and in a fundamental and performance spec and stat comparison, it competes better against other comparable mid size sedans with similar outputs.

The issue with that is most of the other luxury mid size cars in this setup are built to a higher price point and usually are more refined and luxury oriented (as a whole). The real problem lies with the TL though, the SH doesn't really fit in well anywhere. It doesn't chase after anything. As it's been mentioned before, Acura has the SH doing it's own thing, it's not built purposely to compete head on with anything really.

Whether the TL is a small mid or "barely" a mid has nothing to do with it. There are always larger and smaller cars that hold the same size rank and there are other popular mids that should also be considered barely mid sized as well. It's not for that reason that the TL is not a full competitor to cars like the 5 series, it's because of the V8 and higher end feature availabilities, the degree of luxury and refinement, as well as price.

We know the TL's position, according to Acura, is in this middle area between an entry and a mid and I personally think that is a good fit based on all the areas taken into consideration, including price and luxury. I also agree that some of the other comparisons against A7's and Porsche's are off base (which I think were intended to be more exemplary than anything), but this case is different because it's considered ok to compare the TL to entry mid levels like a 528 already, so my position will continue to be, why is it such a huge stretch to then compare to a 535 which has more appropriate levels of HP and overall performance, also being available in the same drievtrain (AWD) which the 528 is not?

It has always been maintained that this car or type of car that the TL is being compared to is more expensive and is more luxurious, etc, etc, which is usually known in the first place but it seems everywhere else that has the TL compared to entry compacts instead (including magazine comparos), that there is no consideration for the fact that it is a mid size sedan with AWD. So while it may not be appropriate to compare the TL to the more structurally and categorically similar (mid size) but more expensive and luxurious cars (as a whole), I also don't think it is appropriate to compare it to entry compacts either. Same concept just with different criteria.

On all levels and aspects (which should satisfy everyone and all perspectives), the TL SH is a more appropriate direct competitor to cars like a LaCrosse CXL w/AWD, probably the CTS AWD, and possibly the VW CC VR6 IMO, and maybe there is one or two others that could slot here as well. From that point though, those type of cars are not as far away from the 535's and A6 3.0T's as people are making them out to be IMO. The CTS gets compared directly to them in most cases even though the STS is better suited for that role according to some, much like the TL and RL. As for the FWD TL, IMO it's direct competitors are the ES, FWD LaCrosse, FWD CC, Maxima, etc.

The basis of these lower end AWD mid size luxury sedans to those higher end sedans is largely the same. The difference is only how much resources are put into them initially and how much is available that you can choose to add. Usually that is reflected in the price points, which is the other major difference, but doesn't mean it is always fully represented, sometimes it just costs a manufacturer more to do the same type of business or they choose to charge more. It's troubling to me that so many use only price as a basis for comparison or put too much faith into it. A G37 and IS 350 are highly competitive vehicles compared to the 335, I consider them to be direct competitors yet there is still a $10-$13k gap between the IS and G, comparably equipped and depending on which model and transmission, when compared to the 335.

So when it comes to higher end and lower mid size sedans, it's not really about different category or different league, it's more along the lines of optioning or equipping, in a way that has to do with the amount of luxury and refinement you want. Instead of being able to choose how well refined and finshed a specific product is, you may have to select another one of the mid size sedans instead. As an example, suppose you do not wish to have all those aspects of luxury and refinement as a starting point and didn't want to pay for them either but still wanted the size and performance, especially of the bigger engine but also wanted the car loaded and for around the starting price of the higher end product. That's where these cars come in.

So while they are not direct competitors and maybe not often cross shopped (mostly for reasons outside of category), they don't appear to be on different planets, at least not to me. These cars are the closest to the higher end mid levels of vehicles outside of that group.

saturno_v

Your post is well thought out, explicative, rational, inteligent.....unfortunately reason is a waste of time on an automotive forum, most of the time.....

Glashub

Beautiful interior isn't it?

BEAR-AvHistory

Total number of Buicks sold in China since they started selling Buicks 2 million in June 2011. Of that 2million the total number of Buicks sold in the last three years, 1 million.

saturno_v

Actually the interior is my least favorite aspect of the new M5....is still the standard 5 Series design....I love the carbon fiber insert though....BMW has done a very good job embellishing it judging from the pictures....

Glashub

Well the whole car is lovely...and look it has quad tips just like the Acura....

saturno_v

Absolutely....if it had the xDrive I could lose my sleep over it..

Edward'TLS

Oh yes, I'm pretty sure that Acura is dying wanting the TL to compete with the A6, the 5-series, the Infiniti M, the GS, and the E-class. But desire and reality don't always go together well.

The Hyundai Genesis and Equus also want to have a crack at them too, as witness by the pair of Hyundai's close resemblance to nothing but the big and premium Mercedes sedans.

In reality, the TL is more than capable to compete with even the top-line-trim A4/3-series/G/IS/C-class, but falls short when compared to the S6/5-series/M/GS/E-class that have available V8/V10 engine options and full luxurious genuine-wood trim interiors.

By the way, the RL sedan (which is the real Acura's intended A6/5/M/GS/E contender) has full genuine-wood trim interior.

saturno_v

The sales stats says it does quite well in the midsize luxury sedan segment.....the same for the Genesis....sales and profit margin count, the rest is conversation and personal opinions...

jspagna1

Wow this thread is still going? This is going to be my only comment in this post, just because......

BMW's are fine cars...........to lease, not to own.
If you want to buy a BMW, save yourself thousands of $$$$ and just go out and buy a Hyundai Sonata, which is a BMW 5 Series wantabe!

As for Buicks, I think their great cars. My parents and grandparents owned Buicks ever since 1950. But I'm not my parents and grandparents. Just not a car for me. Maybe when I turn 70????????

Stew4HD

This "BMW Appreciation & Lovefest / Hate and Putdown" thread will be going for some time to come. These types of threads are about the only ones generating any controversy and comments.

It amuses me that we've have several of these over the last few months and all end up the same.

To me, the exterior of 5 series looks like a re-hashed Jaguar F series Even the M5 shown above looks that way too.. very blah to me! No emotion, no excitement.. it doesn't look liquid or like it's moving when sitting still... but hey, it's fast.. for those wanting that

Now I will leave you all to this thread as well... enjoy

compewterbleu

About as appealing as a cardboard suit.

BEAR-AvHistory

Then you just have to love this one.....the interior is as swoopy & curvy as all get out while the exterior silhouette is a good match for the TL right down to the BMW foward slanting rear side window design cue.

Flows just like water.