PsychDoc

Overall Quality: Hands down the 535 wins here. There's a feeling of richness and attention to the very finest of details in the 535 that is just lacking in the TL. Not that the TL is bad, mind you, just that the 535 is in a whole different league.

Interior: Again this is going to be entirely subjective but the 535 has taken a huge step forward with the F10 (the 2011) from the E60. The interior is now at least on a par with Audi which has long been regarded as the best interior in the business. The TL is nice but, again, not in the same league.

Controls and layout: Not so good here for the 535. This is a complicated car controlled by computer driven menus and sub-menus. There is a real learning curve here and things are nowhere near as intuitive as they should be. The TL is infinitely better and each of the buttons (so often criticized by reviewers) have a clear purpose and are easy to understand and use. Not so, the 535.

Nav: The 535 is simply awful here. The screen is gorgeous but it actually contains far less useful information than the TL's and its functionality is a joke compared with that of the TL. Why they use such a clearly inferior nav system in a $60k car is simply bizarre and totally unforgivable.

Ride quality: Hands down the 535 is the winner here. While the TL was jittery and often harsh, the 535 seems to handle all road conditions with ease and in stride while still providing excellent feedback and a feeling of 'plantedness.' The steering is communicative and, again, not as 'twitchy' as the TL's. Interestingly, for a car that rode so firmly, I found that the TL had quite a bit of body lean in turns, something that is absent in the 535.

Power: Still too early to give an opinion here. I'm babying the 535 until I get to at least 1200 miles so as not to damage anything. Thus far it feels very fast but I haven't wrung it out yet so I can't really make a direct comparison to the TL. The TL is a very quick car though with perfect throttle response and no lag whatsoever when depressing the accelerator.

Overall Technology: The 535 is a monster here. There is simply nothing that any rational person could ever hope for that it doesn't provide. Electronically folding side mirrors, electric rear sunshade, ambiance lighting in the cabin at night (simply gorgeous BTW), backup camera, side/top view cameras (they really work as advertised too), quad xenon headlights with the signature BMW angel eyes and on and on.

Audio system: Other than the needless complexity in actually utilizing the system in the 535, the sound quality of the upgraded BMW audio system is significantly better than that found in the TL. Better dynamics, punchier bass and overall greater clarity. Again, this is largely dependent of your sound source and you're not going to get audiophile sound from crap like satellite radio sources. Here again, the TL's audio system is definitely not bad, the 535's is just significantly better.

Climate control: Well, I should say A/C efficiency as it's way too warm to have tried the heating in the BMW. The A/C in the BMW is OK but not in the same league as the TL. You could build an igloo in a TL on a 100+ degree day here in NYC with the engine on for less than five minutes. The A/C in the TL is simply the best system I have ever experienced. By comparison, the 535 takes forever to cool down the cabin.

Well I just thought I'd try and offer as objective a summary of my initial impressions as I could as I know some (many?) of you either have an interest in or have cross shopped these two cars.

gibjer

I cross shopped a CPO E60, and ended up with the TL, I can imagine the new ones are in a different league then the TL. I drove a '10 535i xDrive I actually loved (it was a 6MT to boot) but just couldn't get over the looks of it, or the probable maintenance issues.

Now the F10s they've fixed the looks, it's truly a handsome car now, but I just couldn't swallow the dollar figure when comparing it to the TL.

JAB00

Thanks for the comparison. However, you are comparing a $50K car at base to one that's $35K. Not exactly in the same league.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

Nice review.

diddy_nyc

iTrader: (1)

Nice Review, but do these cars even compete with each other?

PsychDoc

Well, yes and no. In terms of actual selling price three's close to a $18k difference. However in terms of size (both interior and exterior), power and general level of equipment they can be discussed in the same general discussion.

But you are correct in that any differences between these two vehicles have to be viewed thru the lens of the not insignificant price difference.

Edward'TLS

It's hard to imagine that buyers will cross-shop between these two cars which belong in two different vehicle categories.

Stew4HD

That's what I was thinking too. Comparing the 2 interiors aren't really fair considering the cost differential for the upgrades... IMO.

Glashub

Well, Psychdoc isn't off base (imo) by posting the review here given the number of times Acura owners have tried to compare the TL favorably to BMW and Porsches (even). And given all of the back and forth about BMW's and Acura's.

I find it intersting that Psychdoc finds the sound system to be superior given the fact that there are objective tests by an audiophile mag (I should know I posted it but they moved the thread somewhere) that lists the ELS system above all others i.e. Aston Marin, Jag and the ilk. Can't remember if BMW was reviewed. I think it was.

diddy_nyc

iTrader: (1)

I just custom built a BMW 535xi on the Bimmer website with the same features that came equipped on my TL-SH-AWD Tech. Total came up to $65,000 which included a bunch of add ons such as rearview camera, ipod connection, leather seats, heated seats, etc.

PsychDoc

Yes, right or wrong, there has been a great deal of "cross-talking" (can't really say how much actual cross shopping) about these two vehicles.
As to the audio system I come from a 30+ year history of chronic undifferntiated audiophilia (hey, I'm working on it....I'm going to 'audioholics anonymous' on a regular basis). As much as it pains me go give any credit to a Bose-based system (there goes my audiophile street cred) I have to say the system in the 535 is ridiculously good.

Glashub

Hey Doc I have always thought it interesting that "Bose blows" except in cars. The Bose car systems seem to be very good. Why the dichotomy between HT and cars?

Mr Marco

I'm with diddy, you covered most of the bases but left out PRICE. That is what makes the 4G so great, you can run with the Germans and still have enough left over at the end of the year to take a real vacation.

This year: 3 days in Honolulu, 5 days at the North Shore with a couple trips to the Mokuleia forrest. But I'll be thinking of you PsychDoc the entire time.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Doc for that review!
I'm no where near as established as some of you on here, but I did enjoy his review even if it was comparing two different classes of cars.

PsychDoc

Bose? B(etter) O(ff) S(omewhere) E(lse) ?
LOL
I have no idea why their home stuff is such garbage and their car stuff so good. From the time of their multi-driver 901 home speakers they have never been taken seriously in audiophile circles. Maybe Amar Bose turned his attention to auto applications up at MIT.

Stew4HD

IMO, audio systems are so very subjective. How does one actually judge it? By memory? Is the listener listening to the same audio source? Outside influences also play a part (road noise for instance).

I also saw that report on the best audio systems and the TL was ranked very high with their ELS system.

KES

Hey if you got the extra $20K then drop it on the 535ix over the TL.

But then, for that matter, what else could you buy for $65K or why not jump up to $85K and see what is out there.

I guess my point is at some point you need to say "unlce" and stick to a price range.

saturno_v

Yes the TL competes with the entry and mid level 5 Series, Acura was very clear on that in their official press releases.

They are both midsize luxury sedans.

And yes the 2 cars have been cross-shopped, on Acurazine by at least 3 or 4 people (and me on top of that) that I heard of.

I drove the 535 xDrive more than once (the new F10) and I can give my personal impression.

I would not say that the 535 interior is in a "whole different league".

Actually I would say that the Bimmer cabin has a slight edge at best and definitely not on par with Audi which has some additional level of polishness....as PsychDoc said, some fine details....not different league material.

If you add on top of that the more "daring" interior design of the TL, the Acura wins the cabin game, again in my opinion.

Even with the optional seat package for the 535, I find the TL seats better.....better lateral support, better to look at them too....the standard seats on the Bimmer are a joke.

The Bimmers I tried were either with the M Sport package and with the regular suspension setup.....the latter gave me the impression of a "Buick-esque" behavior, in this case the TL SH-AWD is really in a different league...the M Sport may have a very slight edge over the TL in terms of response but overall I find the TL ride sportier as a sport sedan should be.....I think I can vote the TL on par with the M Sport setup......with the regular one forget it, TL hands down.

I did not evaluate the different stereo systems however the TL has been voted one of the best when it came out, better than some cars costing much more.

So, eventually it comes all down on price as usual....the perennial question is "Are the Germans worth their price difference"?? I always cross shop them when I buy a new car and so far for me the answer has always been "No".

I may go German in the future where there is simply not Japanese offering in the same segment (the M5 for example).

The Teutonic brands offers a higher level of customization that the Japanese simply lacks or, in some cases, has to be obtained as official accessory or aftermarket item.

For example you can replace the TL shifter and door trims with real wood ones and some other details (for example real metal trunk sill).

I do not doubt the Bimmer tech package can have some additional bells and whistles (for example you can get that impressive parking camera setup even on an Infiniti G37) but you have to also consider that it is a newer car than the TL which has been on the market since December 2008.

The TL Tech Package still has some aces up its sleeve, for example the Weather Radar which I do not think is available on the 535i.

A definitely more serious omission for the 535 xDrive is the lack of Torque Vectoring not even as an option which is surprising for a brand that makes supreme driving pleasure its mantra.

The TL engine is a gem but I would love to have the BMW turbocharger, flatter torque and it feels faster even if it isn't.....the edge here goes to the Bavarian...

Finaly exterior style which is one of the most important reason you buy a specific car....TL all the way here...more edgy, assertive and original, but that is a highly subjective area.

PsychDoc

Indeed, but you forget that we are all car guys here and, as such, we want to know all we can about all manner of cars. Certainly those within our (broadly defined) category. I have no interest in trucks and SUV's so, as such, I know very little about them But high end sports sedans or coupes seem to be what we are all interested in here. So, while I would never think of dropping $100k+ on a vehicle that has never stopped me from reading up on cars like the Maseratti Quatroporte or any of the Aston Martin offerings (damn, are those beautiful machines or what?).

To me, knowing what's out there and how it compares to the car I'm driving is always a good thing.

I DK....maybe I'm in the minority.

kcunneely

I wouldn't say I had been cross-shopping until recently seeing the newer 5-series on the road. Never much cared for the prior model. The new one is simply gorgeous IMHO. Just seems to have trimmed all of the awkward edges and added some of what makes the most recent 3-series (particularly the coupe), so attractive. The 5-series proportions seem to better suit 4 doors than does the 3-series. After going online to price one out however, I just can't justify paying more for a base 5 than I would for the SH-AWD Advance model I'm looking at.

Mr Marco

Bull-shit. $20k more doesn't compare. If price wasn't important Hyundai Motors, Kia Industry, General Motors Korea, and Asia Motors would still be making government only cars. The Mustang would have never existed, and I would have a Cayenne & CTS-V in the garage (not an RDX&TL).

saturno_v

Doc, indirectly you raised a very interesting point here....exclusivity....


You see one of the problem I have with some German cars is that the significant price range within a specific model which tend to reduce the "emotional" feeling of exclusivity when you spend a significant amount of money on a car...I explain myself better in this way....you can buy a stripper 528i for about 45K...and there are a lot of 528i on the road......on the high end you may drop close to 100K on a 5 series...even without considering the M5, if you cross all the option checkmarks on a 550i I'm pretty sure you would be not too far away from 6 figures......you see this is the problem.....you drop 100K on a car which fundamentally is a souped up version of the same basic vehicle that can be had for 45K.......I do not get the level of exlusivity that I would like from my 100K....

Same thing happen with the 328i and a maxed out 335i.....

Let me give you another example......few days ago I saw parked in front of a restaurant a gorgeaous Jaguar XF.....these things are actually a bargain but they look and "feel" more exclusive than a 5 Series....


Finally we have the law of diminishing return....if you cut 20K from the TL purchasing price you will be in the world of econoboxes or, at best, entry level family sedans where you will notice A LOT of difference......you will feel much more the 20K on the "way down" from the TL than the 20K on the "way up"...


Let me give you a practical example of that.....many years ago 2 friends of mine living in Canada bought 3 brand new cars pretty much at the same time.....one got a Hyundai Accent as daily commuter for his wife and a Kia Spectra for himself and the other an Infiniti G35......you "felt" more the 4K gap between the stripped down Accent and the fully loaded Spectra than the 20K between the Spectra and the Infiniti....

PsychDoc

Jeez, don't get your panties all in a bunch.

I was just sayin'....

After all, we are all car guys here are we not?

PsychDoc

Yes indeed. There's a lot bigger difference between a cheap set of $100 Panasonic speakers and a $500 set of Polks than between the Polks and the $21,000 Wilson Sophia's. And of course, then we could start talking about amplification, tubes vs. SS, and then the never ending folly of interconnects, A/C conditioners and other tweeks.

KES

I too am impressed with the 535.

With 2 college educations rapidly approaching I just have short arms and deep pockets when it comes to buying a car.

That said I plan to commute my last few years (post college) to work in something expensive (just don't know what it will be 15 years out)

TinyRK

OP, you mentioned the navi and board-computer are hard to navigate through?
I know what you mean, but there is one thing: Germans ( I am German BTW - and yes, I drive a TL) think different. Use common sense and some kind of dumbness, then you will understand the menu-structure, my young padawan!

I notices the difference in those things a while ago. Americans think and do things differently. To this point I am still confused by ACURA's menu-structure.


And another thing: in a BMW the materials don't squeak or rattle. Here is a test:
sitting in the driver's seat of a TL go ahead and push the door with the left knee, and the middle-console ( or whatever that is) with the right knee. My TL then makes squeaky noises. Why would I do that? Well, if I am driving around a curve, that's where I put my knees/ legs so they don't wobble around, if you know what I mean....

My ladyfriend's BMW ( 2007 328xi) does not make noise when I do that.

Sometimes quality is where you can't see it, but hear it

Redstorm

Thanks for the comparison. It's just that it's a mismatch.. The 535xi should be compared against the RL instead.

diddy_nyc

iTrader: (1)

The current RL is pretty much a useless vehicle with the TL in the lineup.

compewterbleu

eh, next topic.

denvrfan

Let's see how all of the BMW's technology holds up during the warranty period. While everything will be paid for, chasing German technology/electrical gremlins promises to be a time consuming and inconvenient adventure. I'll put my money on my TL, thank you very much.

jasonwdp10

Haha I do the same thing! When I take turns quickly, I realize my knees sway with the turn. One way I stop this is to put my fist between the arm rest/door and my knee, that way i stay 100% planted in my seat.

I also agree with the "build" quality thing. In some european cars (esp audi/benz in my experience), the materials are very sturdy, and it's something you can feel!

Sometimes i forget stuff in my TL, so instead of walking around the car, I just enter from the passenger side. In order to get something from near the drivers seat, I need to lean over and put my weight on something. The most convenient spot is on the aluminum trim near the cup holders. When I put weight on them, I hear the plastic "giving" a bit. Not giving as in breaking, but giving as in creaking/squeaking. I get the same noise when I put my arms/elbows on the door and center arm rests to re-adjust my seating position. Not too much "give" or noise when doing that in the audis and benz I've had experiences with.

Edward'TLS

But agree or not, the RL is still one vehicle class above the TL in the Acura lineup, and is Acura's best effort to try competing with the 5-series.

saturno_v

That is the problem...in reality it is not....it has just a bit more high end finishing and couple of more electronic gizmos (the adaptive cruise control for example)

Same engine, same power, same size and same wheelbase....they belong to the same class and this killed the RL for good....it baffles me why they still keep it alive......to be generous and try to make a sense of it, we could say that the TL as a luxury sport sedan competes with the 5 Series (not the 550) while the RL competes with the Mercedes Benz E Class, less sporty, more classic luxury sedan...some sort of "sub-segment" of the midsize luxury sedan class if you will.

I have experienced no rattle or squeak so far on my TL (knock on wood) and the vault like "thud" I get closing the door is as solid as any 5 Series or Audi I ever seen.

jjsC5

Maybe I missed it - but can you confirm which TL stereo you were comparing to - the base stereo or the Tech package?

Overall a good write up. I got blasted in the last thread for holding my ground that I'd take a BMW over the TL for the same price. I'd take if for the difference in price too if I'm feeling wealthy when my Lexus lease is up next year. But money does count!

Glashub

NHTSA Vehicle Complaint database

BMW 535i has about 9 complaints just for model year 2011 and about 35 for 2009 - 2012 as of today. Almost 4x as many registered complaints.

Acura TL has a total of about 9 complaints nationwide for model years 2009 through 2012.

You really want a jolt of reality check out the far more common 3 series (recent model) and the number of complaints on cars with less than 5000 mile.

Go ahead...play around it. Check out all of the models including Audi, Genesis, etc. Then get back with us about quality, okay?

http://projects.latimes.com/nhtsa/

dwest1023

Hey doc, have your wife divorce you. That will cure you for sure. I had a 35K Krell system. After my divorce I know longer cared about highend audio. I now have Bose computer speakers for my sound system. I use to hate Bose too, but when I heard the Bose system in the 06RL I was impressed. I no longer do any bose bashing as its cost effective good sound and you dont need $800 speaker wire. No doubt the system in the BMW sounds good. I have heard the one in the 3 series, and it was good to my ears. Not highend mind you but in a car is was nice.

winstrolvtec

I want to start off by saying Congrats to Doc on the 5 series and also thank him for taking the time to write up a brief comparison. As far as the TL being compared to a 5 series, it would have to be an SH compared to a 535ix (or lower) to make the best case and while it is not necessarily a direct competitor or as close of a competitor as the RL might be, I don't know why there is so much opposition in just mentioning the two in the same sentence.

It's true that the RL is the move up but we also can't forget that in Acura, there is also a move down with the TSX. So taking one step back from the direct competitor view, you do realize that the TL is also a mid size luxury sedan and depending on what trims and how they are equipped, it does still have a lot in common with the 5 despite the cost differences. We shouldn't forget that the TL is built right off the RL and with the 528 no longer offering xDrive, that leaves some looking at a TL SH which is in the expected price range of what a new 528ix would have been.

That doesn't mean I am saying the TL is on the same level as far as luxury and refinement go or that the TL has the V8 and higher end feature availabilities that the 5 has but I still don't see why they don't compete or can't be compared. Other than the level of luxury and refinement, which you do actually pay more for, they compete rather well, particularly when talking about a similarly equipped TL SH and 535ix.

I don't see how relative price is in this case when it usually tells us nothing about how the cars themselves compare, only what they cost in comparison. If manufacturer A builds most of it's own parts and supplies and doesn't pay many third party developers, has lower costs of labor, shipping, importing, and taxes, with less advertising costs and restricts it's methods and choices in configurations and builds to further minimize costs, effectively lowering it's overhead and keeping prices down in relation to manufacturer B, is that enough grounds to establish that they can't or don't compete simply based on price? Even simpler, what if one decides that they want to charge more and the other decides they want to charge less?

Unfortunately, you need much more than price to determine how well the cars do or don't compete. Lets not forget that the 5 is not always perceived as being on another level, many times it is viewed as the same at best but usually lower instead, when you are talking about a 528, and depending on how equipped it is. So it is a rather variable discussion at times and there also is a reverse logic to the typical "it costs roughly $20k more so they don't compare" when you look at what kind of 5 series you get for the same price as an SH tech or advance instead.

It's really a matter of what your criteria for comparison is. The RL competes better in a luxury, refinement, and features position but it's also worse as a performance mid size luxury sedan than the TL. I don't even care much what Acura has to say about what the TL competes with or what it's position is (they can say whatever they want), common sense dictates what it competes against as a whole. The FWD is a FWD luxury mid size sedan so naturally other cars that fit that description would be close competitors and the TL is an AWD mid size luxury sedan, the same logic applies.

People too often want to group cars by what they cost, which is fine but really has nothing to do with the car itself and they don't all have one build, one price so that's highly variable as well. At other times we see perceived level of luxury used, which is a good idea but that is really only one broad aspect of the vehicle when there are many others as well and there are those instances when the majority of the other aspects of the vehicle compete better with cars that might be outside of this luxury range such as size, weight, drivetrain, output, etc.

Moving on, I agree with the interior assessment of the new 5. It is the best in class as far as material grade goes. BMW really went all in on this. This is no longer the 5 that we used to know, it's now a baby/diet/mini 7 series and it can rival the interior of most flagship models. This is really the big aspect that separates the TL from the 5 series.

As far as the body roll and handling, I think this particular comparison would be a little off base if it wasn’t a first hand ownership comparison of the two because it's a front heavy FWD model vs a more balanced permanent AWD. The SH offers excellent compensation for the front heavy FWD tendencies and while it's a more aggressive ride still, but also being a bit lighter and having torque vectoring, it's a better handling vehicle as a whole, at the same time.

With exception to whatever tech is in favor of the TL (which is probably not a whole lot), most of the 5 series tech is more advanced but you do also pay extra for that, especially for what is not available in the TL that is in the 5. What you don't have in the TL, you also don't really pay for, whatever that is worth. If they were priced the same and the 5 tech was still that degree better or offered more tech features than it's a bit different.

And finally, although it's a highly subjective thing, the 5's upgraded hi-fi stereo does have more power and more speakers and therefore may have a bit more capabilities for the normal playback of stuff like XM, iPod/MP3, and radio, so it might very well be better as far as "matrix" surround sound reproduction but the TL's ELS rates extremely high mostly on the basis of it's "discrete" 5.1 playback and while it is very subjective and has a limited availability, it likely has the upper hand here instead, as I don't believe the 5 series has discrete 5.1 support but maybe I am wrong.

omaralt

Why are your replies sooo long?? Lol I wanna read it but its just too long

Pete2010

Psych - thanks for the write up. The F10 is an absolute beast. IMHO, you do get your money's worth with the extra 18k you need to spend to get into a similarly equipped 535xi. My co-worker has one, and I was really impressed with it all. It looks awesome and drives great, BMW really knocked it out of the park on it.

As much as we try, it's tough to compare, but what most people need to ask, is that extra 18k worth it. For some, totally, others... not so much. That's why we have so many options for cars out there.

jjsC5

It's always about diminishing returns. Is a TL worth the up-charge from an Accord? Probably no more than a 535 is worth the up-charge from a TL. The law of diminishing returns says that once you have reached a degree of competency it costs a disproportionate amount to make incremental improvements.