vincethe1

my point was that it should not bother you...you should not even think about it and your hand and foot should do it automatically like 2nd nature....just how you don't think about breathing.

if you're not used to it like that....then don't drive a stick cuz it'll bother you...for me atleast when i'm stuck in traffic that's the only thing that's exciting about it, it's way too boring with an automatic.

but anyway...off topic and you can have your own opinion and dirve an automatic ...just don't say the manual should not exist just because you're annoyed to drive it...buy an auto and let the rest buy w/e they want.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

I drove a manual for the last nine years btw...that being said I didn't say that there should not be an option for a manual. You asked why someone would want a sport sedan with an automatic and I said b/c of bumper to bumper traffic. Thanks for the driving lesson tho.

BEAR-AvHistory

You are entitled to your opinion I only put down what the dictionary says luxury is.

You say "name a Luxury car in a crowd" & 99% of the answers will come back Lexus, Mercedes, Audi, Infinity or BMW. The TL sells very well because of its price but its not something that jumps into peoples mind when the words Luxury car are said.

As for the rest about the only thing the 4 door Accord does not have that the TL does is HID's. I am sure that other intermediate cars like the Camrey are similarly equipped.

Do headlights make a Luxury car?

BEAR-AvHistory

Good argument but there is a hole in your donut.

Size, power, & feature sets have almost nothing to do with street price except at the very bottom end of the various car lines. Once you get out of the lowest price cars the primary difference is market positioning & the increasing size of the profit margin.

For sheer size you can get a 6,000lb V-8 econoline 8 passenger van for $24,000.

While for a pure feature set comparison at an equal size the 2009 Hyundai V6 3.3 Sonata offers everything the 2008 TL does except HID's for $26,500.

It would be interesting to see exactly what the difference is in equipment among the QX56 & Armada.

The 2009 Lexus RX 350 when optioned to equal the 2008 Expedition is up to $58,000 despite the fact its much smaller, has less power, less then half the towing capacity & pretty much the same feature set.

The MB "M" Class & the BMW "X" class are also about the same as the RX 350 in features, power & size. They are very high margin 'image' cars.

Last example is the Caddy Escalade PE for $79,000 which is in reality a re-badged $47,000 Chevy suburban with a custom front clip & a Pontiac GTO engine.

Bottom line is production costs & "luxury" features have very little to do with street price. The price is set by marketing based on what they think they can sell something for.

darksom1

Having said that, and given the speculation on the feature set and power of the 09 TL-P/S, do you plan to buy one in the foreseeable future, hideous grille or not? Do any of you for that matter plan on upgrading to it? Or do you all just want to see it?

I'm getting a 4G TL-S when it drops, because by then, Acura would have heard the pleas of it's customers, and made corrections and produced one hell of a beast!!! (3 exclamations FTW)

07tlsWDP

hey guys..not sure if this is repost but just got the new car and driver and it shows a picture and some specs of the 2009 TL..

it states it will be FWD wit 300 3.7L V6 and will start aounr $35,000

as for the looks..it looks like the bigger version of the TSX but a lot better i think..and the wheels look aggressive..not sure if the production will come like that

EDIT:::::

stillhere posted..haha i should have read sorry guys!

BEAR-AvHistory

My 06 6MT has 22,000 miles on it.

When it gets around 50K+ I will look to replace it. A TL would be considered depending on how it looks & how its equipped. A final decision would naturally be based on what is in the market place at the time (18 months?).

For what this car is used for I got the TL over the Accord 4 door because the visual design is much nicer. Its a very good looking car, the added power at the time was a bonus.

darksom1

I have 20200 on my 06 6MT, and I will probably be about there (50K) when it comes time for the 2012!

paliknight

yah i know where your coming from. i read a couple of posts in this thread where people are expecting to see 330HP minimum on a base TL. i was merely referring to them with my post. i was just showing them why wishful thinking is a waste .

hopefully the new 4G TL will not be just another acura vehicle trying to keep up with the other more advanced cars in its class. if acura plays it right, they should make the 4G TL the leader in technology and innovation, and other cars in its class (G35, 3 series, C-class, etc...) try to keep up with it. but i doubt we will see this happen for another couple of TL generations.

BEAR-AvHistory

Its still a great seller so the pressure on Honda to change is not there. I think the only way they can really move ahead in more then an incremental manner like they do now it to develop a new platform which is a very major investment in money & time.

I would expect to see them ride the new Accord platform (G4) for a full cycle unless their sales tank.

All of us could go to Infinity or Lexus tomorrow & nobody at Honda would notice.

BEAR-AvHistory

Its still a great seller so the pressure on Honda to change is not there. I think the only way they can really move ahead in more then an incremental manner like they do now it to develop a new platform which is a very major investment in money & time.

I would expect to see them ride the new Accord platform (G4) for a full cycle unless their sales tank.

All of us could go to Infinity or Lexus tomorrow & nobody at Honda would notice.

Something else to think about...when all the 3rd gear replacement claims come rolling in its very likely that a Honda exec will get his mouth washed out with soap & directions to the unemployment office if he even mutters the curse word 6MT

timmahh

I know this is a tad off topic, but here is the 2009 Honda Legend [09 RL]



If I were to buy an 09 RL I would order the 09 Legend grill and swap the badges.. Hopefully the new TL will have a look more like this!

whatjones911

Since the 4G TL chassis is based on the new accord, then this will be one huge car. The new accord is consider to be in the large sedan segment now, not mid-size anymore. I bet the new TL will almost be as long as a BMW 750i.

Mokos23

incorrect the new TL won't cause even the Acura execs and Dick Collivier said that the grill on the RL and new TSX will be on the new TL. it will be one happy bucktooth looking family.

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

tsx and rl owners have the luxury of getting the jdm front, which isn't really all that bad, rumors of the 4th gen tl releasing for the jdm market will also offer us the opportunity for a jdm front with a honda badge... for me, when the next type s comes out, that will be my direction...

ps. that jdm honda legend

timmahh

Err.. please read what I post instead of just looking at a picture and quoting it.

I never said the 4G TL will have that grill; I just said hopefully it will have something similar. So, incorrect correct I am correct... because there's nothing to be incorrect about. ... and I know it's the Honda Legend (JDM), because in the US it's an Acura RL..

cheeeez.

carguyrob

One comment on the horsepower wars... the government has approved far more aggressive CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) standards that go into effect 2020. To make sure manufacturers are actually working toward the new goals, they also included incremental increases in a number of milestones starting in model year 2012.

That being said, your average sedan can't tool around with 350hp and still allow manufacturers to meet the requirements (without some totally new, highly efficient technology). A number of manufacturers are already canceling investments in new high HP engines (ex: GM just canceled their project for their next replacement for the Northstar engine). If gas continues to hover around $4/gallon or even continues to climb, consumers will help to demand the new CAFE requirements.

White92

While at the ride and drive of the 09 TSX in Phoenix last week, I was asking about the 09 TL. They couldn't or wouldn't say much about it, but could confirm that there will be no more tape deck. That is all.

madddog32

I loved the tape deck..the best way and cheapest way to intergrate my ipod with the car. But now we have this 40gb harddrive or w.e it is that should be wondeful!

darksom1

I loved it for my Go-Go music from back-in-da-day, but since I have converted my old tapes to CD, and ultimately added them to my iPod, which is cranked using my DICE...I am in the new millenium, and no longer need it! Say what!

Tripnbeats

I wonder how honda "engineers" come up with the car design

darksom1

Didn't I read in here somewhere that there is supposed to be an easier plug-n-play interface for the iPod, whereas you don't need third-party hardware like the DICE unit to control it in the 4G?

timmahh

If they use the same system the 09 TSX uses - yes. Within the arm rest you find:

Power Outlet
Stereo Input
USB

You use the cord and hook directly into the USB port; the system will recognize the iPod and display the text on the screen as well as have full control over it. You can plug in a flash drive or self powered hard drive containing audio files and the system will play those as well. If you have a Zune or other not an iPod MP3 player you can plug into the stereo input

darksom1

That's what's up!!!

HenryNYC

iTrader: (3)

Has anyone picked up a copy of R&T? There is a little article and picture of a 4GTL. Pic is of front to side shot. Looks like an over sized TSX. Has a head/grill similar to the new TSX. Not much reading on it but says it's powered by 3.7 V6 w/300HP driving the front.

havenlock

does it look kinda like this?

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9.../2009TL001.jpg

I'm pretty sure you're referring to the same pic. It's a photoshopped TSX.

White92

Yep, the previous 10 pages on this thread talk about it.

AtlantaTLS

Has anyone been by their dealer to check out the new TSX in person?

I stopped by this weekend and sat in an ASPEC model for a few minutes. The USB port, XM recording, and XM Weather looked like nice features. That said, the new interior layout makes the cockpit seem a bit smaller than I remember from the previous generation, and especially so coming out of my TL. The interior definitely feels like an even mix between the 2007 MDX and the 2007 TL. The showroom model with ASPEC was selling for nearly $34k, putting it within a few hundred dollars (literally) of what TL-S's are being sold for with TTL in some places, which pretty much assures the fact that the new TL should get a good price bump from the $33k starting price listed on the Acura site now.

The salesman didn't know much about the new TL other than to say his manager had seen it and he said he'd trade in his RL for the new TL in a heartbeat and that it was amazing. (take it with as much salt as you like)

*

KeithL

I took the demo ASPEC out for a test drive a few days after it was released. It is no TL and surely no TL-S, but it is a tight peppy and zippy car. I love the new lines on exterior although a tad too much with the edginess like in the door handles, hate the grill scoop front. The interior is nice with the xception of 2 things, hate the cheap looking dash material, too grainy and cheap looking as it he fake looking brushed aluminum accents around the guages. The ELS is an omprovement over the one in th TL, although not dramatic. As for Acura ADVANCE, what gives with no keyless entry and push to start. I can get that on a entry Altima!! Fit and finish exceed even the TL (no surprise, Japan built vs. losers in Ohio), seats were comfortable and the cabin felt roomier than the old TSX. Acceleration was good for that this car is. Power steering is too light and numb at low speeds, I love the heavier feel of the TL and TL-S. TSX $1800 price increase tells me 4G TL will go up probably $2K minimum if not more like $3K.

YoungCeo

Man, what does it take to get a picture of the new TL??? Its good that its getting positive feedback from those who have seen it, esp considerign that those same people (I think) have crushed the RL...

darksom1

I just want to know the real scoop on the features in it. I don't want to see a 4G on the street until I am ready to buy mine when the Type-S drops! Unless it's ugly, then I'll just keep good ol' Stella!

Aman

I had this huge argument that i posted up at school...guess it didnt. Anyways...

1st Bold) Size, power, and feature sets are THE basis on how a car is priced, at all levels. bigger car means more material, more money. More power, more money. more features, more money. Obviously, this varies among car manufacturers, but generally that is how it works. The TL is bigger, more powerful, than the TSX and voila...it is more expensive. the RL is bigger, more expensive, and has more features than the TL and of course is more expensive

2nd Bold)

Aman

continuing on (too late to edit)

2nd bold: Read #1

3rd bold: The econoline is 4 benches, 4 wheels, and 8 cylinders, nothing else. and Hyundais are an exception because they are now known for giving a lot of stuff for very little money, as you just proved

4th Bold: "The cabin is a mixed bag, with plush leather seating, handsome wood accents and well-padded armrests boosting the luxury quotient considerably over that of the bland Armada."
A large luxury SUV, the seven-passenger 2007 Infiniti QX56 comes in one trim level with a choice of either two- or four-wheel drive. Standard features include 18-inch chrome alloy wheels, xenon HID headlights, Bluetooth connectivity, leather seating for seven, power and heated front seats, real wood trim, a navigation system and a 10-speaker Bose audio system. Dual-zone automatic climate control, a separate rear air-conditioner, a rearview monitor, park assist, power-adjustable pedals and a power rear liftgate are also standard. The short list of options includes a rear-seat DVD entertainment system, a bench seat for the second row (increasing capacity to eight), satellite radio, a sunroof and adaptive cruise control"

"Emphasizing the luxury theme, the Infiniti QX56's cabin is bedecked in leather, thick carpeting and lustrous wood and aluminum accents"

http://www.edmunds.com/infiniti/qx56/2007/review.html
"

mista.huynh

iTrader: (4)

i just wanna see the 4th gen...

BEAR-AvHistory

About the above: My BMW 330 Ci convertible is smaller then my TL & has a less powerful engine, but cost a lot more. :-)

If you do the research you will find there is very little actual difference in the cost of materials & manufacturing equipment between a large car a smaller one.

The bigger ones just have a much bigger profit margin because most people think like you do..

The biggest cost in car production is labor & for example the labor rate is the same if a guy is screwing together a Chevy or a Caddy.

If you use the $40K Suburban & the $80K Escalade is a further example, they both come down the same assembly line so the same guys are putting both together. Therefore the labor content is the same on both but one is twice as expensive at retail. Here is a picture of the dash is the difference worth $40,000.




The Lexus ES-350 is a re-badged Camrey, same platform/engine/transmission, do you really think that the slight difference in materials & sheet metal stamping account's for much of the $10,000 retail price difference? Might they not be just marking the ES-350 up for all they are worth because it has a Lexus nameplate on it?

That being said you are doing a good job in the debate but you at this point do not understand the economics of the auto industry. One of the reasons they hate cafe is it forces them to sell more low end, low margin cars rather then high end, high margin cars.

BEAR-AvHistory

If you look at the base raw material for a car its coils of cold rolled steel. This goes for about $680 a ton on the open market. The auto industry has fixed contracts & a lesser price because of their buying volumes. But lets make it $700 for easier number crunching.

That suggest the TL has about $1225 worth of steel to build the whole car while the Expedition has about $2100 of steel in it. So the difference to build a body in white, not including labor is about $875.



The BMW is a bit lighter then the TL but if you look at this picture the difference in the steel required to build a big or little body is under $900.

sandiegodrive

Yup, me too

SpicyMikey

All good points, but you need to account for the much smaller sales. There's certain fixed costs for engineering, assembly line tooling, distribution, marketing, etc. These costs are somewhat fixed whether you make 10 or 10 million. You can't sell an ES for the same price as a Camry. Economies of scale play a large factor in the ultimate profit margins

carguyrob

And when you go from a general make to a luxury brand, you need to account for all the extras that a buyer of a luxury nameplate expects (i.e. free loaners, longer warranties, premium dealerships, more forgiveness for out-of-warranty free repairs, etc.). All these extras make up the luxury car buying experience and cost the manufacturer and dealer a lot more than the parts for cooled front seats.

Xpditor

I got up this morning and stepped on the cat. Then, I burned the toast.

Then, I come on AZ to find you Llamas in an Off Topic feeding frenzy in a thread that is already 57 pages long and over 2000 posts. Much of that is .

You have been warned by me, trancemission, and ggesq to keep this thread on topic. Some of you are not listening. You know who you are.

A good quality, informative post does not override the need to stay on topic. Take those good thoughts and start a new thread and you can have a lovely circle on the well-worn topics of torque steer, definition of luxury, how neat BMWs are, etc.

BUT NOT HERE! I'm not having a good day and some of you are working on my last nerve.

(Now, where did I put that Ban Hammer?)