MAS Progress Thread (Comptech/Hondata/Aspec/ATLP/RV6/JnC/Sarona/.......)
#641
Drifting
iTrader: (1)
Posted this in another thread, I'm sure you're well informed though.
I'm well aware that anyone can do it.
Enjoy a short read I dug up while researching dyno tuning vs remote tuning:
Ignition timing is absolutely crucial and can only be set properly by accurate dyno data. Anything else is either dangerous or a compromise. Here's an excerpt from the white paper relating to this:
Populating an ignition table
This is the point where most amateurs fall down, and amongst professionals this is the aspect that tends to sort the wheat from the chaff.
The process of populating an ignition table accurately is a delicate one requiring a high degree of skill, a deep level of technical understanding and above all very sensitive measuring equipment.
To set ignition advance accurately the engine should be connected to a load control dynamometer; a device that can restrict and control the engines speed at the same time as returning live output readings to the calibrator.
The basic process goes like this
1. With the engine running at a fixed load and being held a fixed speed by the dyno, the calibrator will input ignition advance values that are deliberately too retarded to the appropriate area of the ignition table, this is to say that the spark event will be being deliberately fired too late in the cycle. Because of this the peak cylinder pressure point will be happening at a point also too late in the cycle, the result is a low output from the engine.
2. The calibrator will then slowly advance the ignition event in the engine cycle whilst critically keeping all other variables as constant as possible
3. As the ignition event is gradually advanced, the output readings coming from the dyno will rise and rise as the combustion event becomes more and more efficient.
4. As the timing of the peak cylinder pressure approaches the point in the cycle at which the piston and rod gain mechanical advantage over the crankshaft, the gains in output seen by the calibrator with each incremental movement in ignition advance will reduce until there is no gain at all, at this point the ignition timing is said to be set at minimum best timing or “MBT”.
5. At this point the job is done, at least for this one cell on the table, the calibrator now must visit every cell in the table by varying the engine speed bit by bit and the engine load bit by bit, the whole time being sure to control all other variables which might inadvertently affect the engines output and so skew the results or the continuous testing.
This is how it should be done, only after following this procedure is an ecu calibrator 100% sure what the ignition advance values need to be at all of the various areas of the table, in short you can’t tell the engine instead you must ask it.
Here's another excerpt:
In Summary
• It is very important never to guess whilst tuning an engine. To avoid guessing we must make real life measurements to use as vital feedback for confirming the accuracy of changes that are being made. A motor output measurement device is called a dynamometer, a good dyno system removes the need for any guesswork.
• Even an experienced professional ECU calibration engineer needs good quality measurement equipment in order to do good work. Regardless of any talent or experience the calibrator may have if they cannot accurately measure, then they are guessing.
• It is important to tune all of the areas of an ecu’s map. Some areas of the maps will rarely be used in day to day operation but these area’s still have the ability to damage your engine when they are found if they are ignored or guessed at. A load control dyno allows an operator to slowly and calmly explore all of the areas of a map.
• In order to reduce overall cost’s it is crucial that an ECU calibration is carried out by a knowledgeable and experienced professional, ECU calibration is a far larger subject than this basic guide may suggest. Whilst sometimes cheaper up front amateur ECU calibrators can be easily lured into making very costly mistakes, often just by having inadequate knowledge of the complex processes involved and the often far reaching effects of the decisions they are making.
• It is crucial to not put any body in mortal danger for the sake of car tuning, there are no good reasons to tune an ecu on the road.
The important thing is for members to understand the limitations of various methods in order to make informed decisions
Just some stuff to think about before deciding to get a remote tune is all.
Enjoy a short read I dug up while researching dyno tuning vs remote tuning:
Ignition timing is absolutely crucial and can only be set properly by accurate dyno data. Anything else is either dangerous or a compromise. Here's an excerpt from the white paper relating to this:
Populating an ignition table
This is the point where most amateurs fall down, and amongst professionals this is the aspect that tends to sort the wheat from the chaff.
The process of populating an ignition table accurately is a delicate one requiring a high degree of skill, a deep level of technical understanding and above all very sensitive measuring equipment.
To set ignition advance accurately the engine should be connected to a load control dynamometer; a device that can restrict and control the engines speed at the same time as returning live output readings to the calibrator.
The basic process goes like this
1. With the engine running at a fixed load and being held a fixed speed by the dyno, the calibrator will input ignition advance values that are deliberately too retarded to the appropriate area of the ignition table, this is to say that the spark event will be being deliberately fired too late in the cycle. Because of this the peak cylinder pressure point will be happening at a point also too late in the cycle, the result is a low output from the engine.
2. The calibrator will then slowly advance the ignition event in the engine cycle whilst critically keeping all other variables as constant as possible
3. As the ignition event is gradually advanced, the output readings coming from the dyno will rise and rise as the combustion event becomes more and more efficient.
4. As the timing of the peak cylinder pressure approaches the point in the cycle at which the piston and rod gain mechanical advantage over the crankshaft, the gains in output seen by the calibrator with each incremental movement in ignition advance will reduce until there is no gain at all, at this point the ignition timing is said to be set at minimum best timing or “MBT”.
5. At this point the job is done, at least for this one cell on the table, the calibrator now must visit every cell in the table by varying the engine speed bit by bit and the engine load bit by bit, the whole time being sure to control all other variables which might inadvertently affect the engines output and so skew the results or the continuous testing.
This is how it should be done, only after following this procedure is an ecu calibrator 100% sure what the ignition advance values need to be at all of the various areas of the table, in short you can’t tell the engine instead you must ask it.
Here's another excerpt:
In Summary
• It is very important never to guess whilst tuning an engine. To avoid guessing we must make real life measurements to use as vital feedback for confirming the accuracy of changes that are being made. A motor output measurement device is called a dynamometer, a good dyno system removes the need for any guesswork.
• Even an experienced professional ECU calibration engineer needs good quality measurement equipment in order to do good work. Regardless of any talent or experience the calibrator may have if they cannot accurately measure, then they are guessing.
• It is important to tune all of the areas of an ecu’s map. Some areas of the maps will rarely be used in day to day operation but these area’s still have the ability to damage your engine when they are found if they are ignored or guessed at. A load control dyno allows an operator to slowly and calmly explore all of the areas of a map.
• In order to reduce overall cost’s it is crucial that an ECU calibration is carried out by a knowledgeable and experienced professional, ECU calibration is a far larger subject than this basic guide may suggest. Whilst sometimes cheaper up front amateur ECU calibrators can be easily lured into making very costly mistakes, often just by having inadequate knowledge of the complex processes involved and the often far reaching effects of the decisions they are making.
• It is crucial to not put any body in mortal danger for the sake of car tuning, there are no good reasons to tune an ecu on the road.
The important thing is for members to understand the limitations of various methods in order to make informed decisions
Just some stuff to think about before deciding to get a remote tune is all.
#642
Yeah, good info which i have already read before......im still gonna street tune with Vit.....but it is good info. Of course there is information out there that says the opposite too. I guess this is part of the fun in reading up on things and trying to make an informed decision. At some point you make up your mind and go with it. I never wouldve supercharged if I didnt take some calculated risks here and there.
![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
#643
So wifey had to work today so I spent some time working on the house and the TL. First thing was getting the HBP on in anticipation of my upcoming ECU swap and Hondata tuning. Heres a couple pics of the old and new pulleys. Just a slight difference in diameter but it practically doubles the boost so this should be fun. I took it for a quick drive and even got on it briefly a couple times. Ive currently got a FIC tune which is little rich so I figured it was a minimal risk. Got back and car is still alive. Difference is noticable even without another tune. Once I get the Hondata settled this thing should be as solid, reliable and forceful as a aftermarket S/C could ever be (what Comptech wouldve sold from the beginning).
![](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cTLdEtdIgQw/UpfZ1GmbcVI/AAAAAAAAq3s/bRMpkLkZhGY/s800/20131128_130133.jpg)
![](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-PTz8IW4lvqk/UpfZy5bXoII/AAAAAAAAq3c/W5JffmP9HFs/s800/20131128_130046.jpg)
So PCDs are a great power adder but this is what they do to your exhaust. I had been planning to polish them so I spent a little time on them today.
![](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bHxjCQIxBWU/Upfa7TdbhTI/AAAAAAAAq4Q/6CY25zV0Wyw/s800/20131128_151606.jpg)
![](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-xQNyZDUKy-s/Upfa8921giI/AAAAAAAAq4Y/BPqzo9bi9tM/s800/20131128_151520.jpg)
This is how ATLP exhaust is supposed to look like.
![](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uoaFG1GAgC4/Upfa0Un5CwI/AAAAAAAAq34/VucLgJhR1KI/s800/20131128_153230.jpg)
![](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-j4_UDbivGiM/Upfa47zrzOI/AAAAAAAAq4I/sxySWpB7Ci0/s800/20131128_151942.jpg)
Hope you enjoy the pics.
Happy Thanksgiving to the entire Azine family.
![](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cTLdEtdIgQw/UpfZ1GmbcVI/AAAAAAAAq3s/bRMpkLkZhGY/s800/20131128_130133.jpg)
![](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-PTz8IW4lvqk/UpfZy5bXoII/AAAAAAAAq3c/W5JffmP9HFs/s800/20131128_130046.jpg)
So PCDs are a great power adder but this is what they do to your exhaust. I had been planning to polish them so I spent a little time on them today.
![](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bHxjCQIxBWU/Upfa7TdbhTI/AAAAAAAAq4Q/6CY25zV0Wyw/s800/20131128_151606.jpg)
![](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-xQNyZDUKy-s/Upfa8921giI/AAAAAAAAq4Y/BPqzo9bi9tM/s800/20131128_151520.jpg)
This is how ATLP exhaust is supposed to look like.
![](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uoaFG1GAgC4/Upfa0Un5CwI/AAAAAAAAq34/VucLgJhR1KI/s800/20131128_153230.jpg)
![](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-j4_UDbivGiM/Upfa47zrzOI/AAAAAAAAq4I/sxySWpB7Ci0/s800/20131128_151942.jpg)
Hope you enjoy the pics.
Happy Thanksgiving to the entire Azine family.
The following 2 users liked this post by MAS:
ACCURATEin (12-03-2013),
rockstar143 (11-28-2013)
The following users liked this post:
MAS (11-28-2013)
The following users liked this post:
MAS (11-28-2013)
#646
Team Owner
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO (Overland Park, KS)
Posts: 36,545
Received 6,470 Likes
on
5,162 Posts
Looks good, MAS!
The following users liked this post:
MAS (12-01-2013)
#647
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
Nice work! ![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Can you please describe your cleaning process for the exhaust? I don't have PCDs but my exhaust is starting to look pretty dirty like yours did.
![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Can you please describe your cleaning process for the exhaust? I don't have PCDs but my exhaust is starting to look pretty dirty like yours did.
The following users liked this post:
Marcelechka (11-30-2013)
#650
Let's try this month?
Last edited by MAS; 12-01-2013 at 09:04 PM.
#651
![](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-t6jJQjQUkyg/Up1kX9GOKaI/AAAAAAAAq5I/Tvw_QSe9mgk/s800/20131130_164705.jpg)
Out with the old, in with the new.
Already started to tune with Vit. Started with base tune and data logged just car idling and sent it to him. Then he said to take a short, easy drive ..... which I just did and sent that data log in to him too. Waiting for next step.
PS - I'll be selling this AEM FIC controller and plug-n-play harness soon, so pm me if you're interested.
#652
Team Owner
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO (Overland Park, KS)
Posts: 36,545
Received 6,470 Likes
on
5,162 Posts
![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
The following users liked this post:
MAS (12-05-2013)
#653
takin care of Business in
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO
Age: 40
Posts: 30,994
Received 4,732 Likes
on
4,064 Posts
havent been here in a little bit....
great updates MAS !!!!
I am eager to see more pix and a lot more video's
great updates MAS !!!!
I am eager to see more pix and a lot more video's
![Nod](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/nod.gif)
The following users liked this post:
MAS (12-09-2013)
The following users liked this post:
Marcelechka (12-09-2013)
The following users liked this post:
Predatorbird (12-09-2013)
The following users liked this post:
Predatorbird (12-09-2013)
#659
Team Owner
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO (Overland Park, KS)
Posts: 36,545
Received 6,470 Likes
on
5,162 Posts
You guys need to do a meet-we've got too much cold and snow everywhere else......
We'll be living vicariously through you Florida boys.
We'll be living vicariously through you Florida boys.
The following users liked this post:
Marcelechka (12-09-2013)
#660
Chapter Leader (Southeast Region)
Hope to see this car in person soon I like what you have done with it and planning on doing similar things to the one i just got. I think an entire Florida meet would be fun and I would be willing to help arrange it. There are quite a few members in Jacksonville that meet up every month or two.
The following users liked this post:
Marcelechka (12-10-2013)
#661
Lets find one in Jan and make this happen.
I dont know how you guys up there do it.
I thought i read somewhere you recently got a 3G. What ar ethe plans with the 2G?
Hope to see this car in person soon I like what you have done with it and planning on doing similar things to the one i just got. I think an entire Florida meet would be fun and I would be willing to help arrange it. There are quite a few members in Jacksonville that meet up every month or two.
The following users liked this post:
Marcelechka (12-10-2013)
The following users liked this post:
MAS (01-02-2014)
#665
ah shiz.... This looks good... Any plans to dyno?
#666
Team Owner
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO (Overland Park, KS)
Posts: 36,545
Received 6,470 Likes
on
5,162 Posts
Hell, I'd almost come down for a Florida meet. The thing is, once I got there, I'd probably never come back......
The following users liked this post:
rockstar143 (01-16-2014)
#667
Race Director
iTrader: (8)
MAS, nice progress.
Very jealous!
Very jealous!
The following users liked this post:
MAS (01-02-2014)
#668
Update:
So the tuning has taken much longer than necessary because of the holidays and i have not had time to mess much with it lately. Tuning is almost complete. Car is pulling pretty hard. Flashpro has eliminated all slight jitters & hesistations and CELs are a thing of the past. You cant really tell its heavily modded until you floor it and the whyne screams at you and everyone nearby. I'll be making a couple videos once its all done including from the drivers point of view and from the outside. A rolling video would be sweet too. I need to meet up with Adam for the really high quality stuff.
#669
So tuning by Vit is done. Here are the dyno numbers. They are from Vit's edyno and not from an actual dyno so ill go ahead and assume they are a bit high. I can tell you the car is beastly right now so although i am not sure what the actual numbers are i dont care because this thing is an animal right now. I know, i know i gotta make a video. Now that tuning is done im already coordinating with a friend to try to make a nice video this weekend. Stay tuned!
![](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-gCGs1EE7k40/Utdl2nwJnzI/AAAAAAAAsdA/dXDDFQ51aa4/s800/8D0E08337F96657_C21F969B5F3D33D43E04F8F136E7682.833d71ad-e6a1-42f7-b9d8.png)
]
![](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-gCGs1EE7k40/Utdl2nwJnzI/AAAAAAAAsdA/dXDDFQ51aa4/s800/8D0E08337F96657_C21F969B5F3D33D43E04F8F136E7682.833d71ad-e6a1-42f7-b9d8.png)
]
The following users liked this post:
ACCURATEin (01-15-2014)
#670
Moderator
iTrader: (3)
![what](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/what.gif)
#672
HBP + Hondata is a great combo. Once again i assume that number is high but it doesn't feel like it is. If that number is reasonable then the HP at the crank is probably a bit over 400hp and think about what other cars come with a factory stated HP just over 400HP. Mustang GT, Camaro SS, some older Corvettes, M3, among others. The TL is not necessarily better or faster than all those other cars but if you love the looks of this car and just want to give it more balls this seems to fit the bill. Of course these days some guys are making 500-700hp on turbo builds with these cars and my hat is off to them. Without pioneers like them, less experienced (non-mechanic) DIY guys like me wouldn't be able to even get this far.
#673
Moderator
Chapter Leader (South Florida Region)
Chapter Leader (South Florida Region)
iTrader: (6)
There's 1 reason your car is much better than any of those cars listed...it's YOURS. AND, it's probably still getting more than 20 MPG, and it's a classic style that still looks relevant, and you will leave all those guys' jaws on the ground when you light em up AND you can tell them that your Jap car is more US and A than theirs because it was built in Ohio. Sounds like it's a great time, man...seriously. and PS, I have NEVER dyno'd anything nor gone to the track. I measure my car's performance by driving pleasure and that is IT. IDGAF about all that other stuff. Smiles per gallon.
![:O](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/embarrassment.gif)
Preaching to the choir!
![:O](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/embarrassment.gif)
Preaching to the choir!
The following users liked this post:
Kaiii (01-26-2014)
#674
Cant agree more. Body style is still much better than MANY other newer, more expensive, "better" cars out there now. Still doesnt look outdated to me either. This car was a great design and all it lacked was some more power which it now has. Now if only there was a DIY way to make it RWD then fun factor would increase even more. I would bet just a little fishtailing here and there is high on the fun factor list...you can attest to that with the new ride.
#675
Moderator
Chapter Leader (South Florida Region)
Chapter Leader (South Florida Region)
iTrader: (6)
I can!
That said, there's ALSO something to be said for how predictable and controllable FWD is. I honestly think that in Florida, where it's all straight roads anyway, you're not missing too much. Sure I love the oversteer in the S occasionally, but I find myself sometimes tempering my driving to ensure I don't end up another victim of moron "vtec just kicked in, yo".
That said, there's ALSO something to be said for how predictable and controllable FWD is. I honestly think that in Florida, where it's all straight roads anyway, you're not missing too much. Sure I love the oversteer in the S occasionally, but I find myself sometimes tempering my driving to ensure I don't end up another victim of moron "vtec just kicked in, yo".
#676
Team Owner
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO (Overland Park, KS)
Posts: 36,545
Received 6,470 Likes
on
5,162 Posts
Wow......
#677
So ive been surfing the net and have run into one of my all time favorite cars for sale and its only a couple miles from me. If i didnt already have 2 cars i would probably be trying to find a way to buy this thing. This body style was so ahead of its time then and is still timeless today. Stills looks better than plenty of new cars (even some higher end sports cars). Twin Turbo doesnt hurt either but right now it would be a step down in power for me, unless of course you modded the hell out of it but then you gotta start worrying about having a 1990s car and things gotta be falling apart soon.
Who else loves these cars?
![](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wYrRYst30Tc/UuVNtmRClII/AAAAAAAAseY/eGbdMcVQAfg/s800/Screenshot_2014-01-26-10-19-49%257E2.jpg)
![](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fxl9Os4HWfg/UuVNs3JnjvI/AAAAAAAAseI/PEjGI2S2gHI/s800/Screenshot_2014-01-26-10-19-37%257E2.jpg)
![](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-hvKQpOymTRE/UuVNuexO5fI/AAAAAAAAseU/NLiQyBC9eHU/s800/Screenshot_2014-01-26-10-20-05%257E2.jpg)
Who else loves these cars?
![](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wYrRYst30Tc/UuVNtmRClII/AAAAAAAAseY/eGbdMcVQAfg/s800/Screenshot_2014-01-26-10-19-49%257E2.jpg)
![](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fxl9Os4HWfg/UuVNs3JnjvI/AAAAAAAAseI/PEjGI2S2gHI/s800/Screenshot_2014-01-26-10-19-37%257E2.jpg)
![](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-hvKQpOymTRE/UuVNuexO5fI/AAAAAAAAseU/NLiQyBC9eHU/s800/Screenshot_2014-01-26-10-20-05%257E2.jpg)
#678
-------Tim-------
^Sweet! Had a couple friends with the NA version, blast to drive! Also, had a friend with a modded Twin Turbo, although older, still would keep up/smoke all kinds a cars on the road today! Wonder how many miles on it?
Still no Whine Vids of TL!![Yuck](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/yuck.gif)
J/K!
Still no Whine Vids of TL!
![Yuck](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/yuck.gif)
J/K!
#679
I do. I've always wanted one but they scare the crap out of me when it comes to working on one. No space under the hood to even stick your hand in, heads go like brakes and they always have over heating issues. But I do agree on it being way way ahead of it's time. It still looks like a car that should've been introduced in the early 2000s. Projector lights, 6 speed manual trans(in the very rare ones) and the slanted cock pit is just fenomenal. If I had money to play around with, this car would deff be on my list to build.
#680
Team Owner
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO (Overland Park, KS)
Posts: 36,545
Received 6,470 Likes
on
5,162 Posts
Not bad.....I like the nose.