UR Crank Pulley info 3G Garage #A-098
05-04-2009, 10:22 AM
#281
Burning Brakes
As for death by hyperlink, I knew I'd get questioned and flamed regarding the UDP. It's was the same way on the Maxima, G, and Z sites. When you debate, you need references to back up your argument therefore I posted them. This is a very detailed subject and you need to understand the principles at hand.
05-04-2009, 10:40 AM
#282
Please be careful when commenting without any factual support about cost or attempting to dismiss others claims ... especially if you have no purchasing or design experience with an OEM.
Keep in mind, the people who design and purchase parts for a living with years of experience are commenting within this thread. These are degreed folks (some with advanced degrees and have annual spends of more than $100 million a year). I think we are lucky to have this talent available to us enthusiasts.
Keep in mind, the people who design and purchase parts for a living with years of experience are commenting within this thread. These are degreed folks (some with advanced degrees and have annual spends of more than $100 million a year). I think we are lucky to have this talent available to us enthusiasts.
I find it odd you are questioning someone new on this forum. Dave B doesn't have many posts and yet you have put him on a pedestal. And honestly I'm not sure that he's legit. Why is a Nissan guy even on Acura forums?
05-04-2009, 11:17 AM
#283
practicing nihilist
^ousted by his own kind, I'm assuming.
BTW, Dave, there are a few 3.2L's on this site similarly mod'ed WITH a UR crank pulley that have better 1/4 mile #'s than you.
That's all the proof I need.
BTW, Dave, there are a few 3.2L's on this site similarly mod'ed WITH a UR crank pulley that have better 1/4 mile #'s than you.
That's all the proof I need.
05-04-2009, 11:54 AM
#284
Burning Brakes
Maybe because I'm an auto enthusiast with a passion for cars and enjoy driving, racing, and working on them? Maybe because I'm not a brand-specific fanboi? Maybe because I'm madly in love with sporty sedans and have respect for all makes and models? Maybe because I enjoy helping people?
05-04-2009, 12:01 PM
#285
Burning Brakes
That's a pretty argument for the UDP and it's pretty obvious you posted that in a weak attempt to get a rise out me. You'll need to try harder.
05-04-2009, 12:19 PM
#286
Burning Brakes
Sigh; Fluid dampers were designed for diesel motors and due to the their low revving. Putting a fluid filled damper on a high revving performance car and you asking for trouble. The problem with fluid is that it freezes in higher rpm applications and causes a hammering effect on your crank and in turn doing more damage then good. As a matter of fact I have seen this design by a company that did this for Mercedes vehicles and it ripped the crank snout right of the pulley and sending the pulley into the motor damaging it. so please do ever used fluid filled dampers for an example.
I have no idea where you got the idea that a Fluidampr is dangerous for a motor. Please post up some links of these units failing and destroying motors. Fluidampers are superior in design to the OEM crank damper hence the reason they're used on NHRA drag cars (domestic and import), NASCARs, and numerous competition level SCCA auto-x/road race cars.
And for those that believe Excelerate's argument that all domestic V8s and Nissan motors are externally balanced, check out the Fluidampr website and you'll see that they note the balancing of the motor under each specific motor parts listing. The Nissan motors are internally balanced as well as the listed Hondas, Toyota, GM LT/LS series motors, etc.
http://www.fluidampr.com/NISSAN.htm
Here is the "How it works" FAQ for the Fluidampr, take special note of the Rubber vs Silicone Fluid section and how they SPECIFICALLY note the rubber/elastomer rings wedged in the OEM crank pulleys that are used for dampening certain order vibrations. How many different times do I need to link references to this to make you guys understand that the ring isn't there to reduce accessory noise. UR has really spread this misinformation thick.
http://www.fluidampr.com/HOWITWORKS.htm
Rubber VS Silicone Fluid
Critical harmonic vibrations occur numerous times in a engine’s operating range. Stock rubber and elastomer-type dampers are frequency sensitive “tuned absorbers”, and work at only one critical frequency. In the case of a stock rubber damper, it is tuned for a factory engine’s critical harmonic vibrations. If you change the mass of pistons, rods, or the crankshaft, you change the natural frequency of the crankshaft assembly; therefore, the stock damper is no longer tuned to the new frequency of vibration, and you may be headed for early failure of expensive engine components. Dampers also create heat while they work, and rubber is a poor dissipator of heat. This heat and the exposure to the elements deteriorates rubber, causing it to crack and change durometer, which then leads to inertia ring slippage, damper failure, uncontrolled torsional vibration, and costly engine parts breakage.
Critical harmonic vibrations occur numerous times in a engine’s operating range. Stock rubber and elastomer-type dampers are frequency sensitive “tuned absorbers”, and work at only one critical frequency. In the case of a stock rubber damper, it is tuned for a factory engine’s critical harmonic vibrations. If you change the mass of pistons, rods, or the crankshaft, you change the natural frequency of the crankshaft assembly; therefore, the stock damper is no longer tuned to the new frequency of vibration, and you may be headed for early failure of expensive engine components. Dampers also create heat while they work, and rubber is a poor dissipator of heat. This heat and the exposure to the elements deteriorates rubber, causing it to crack and change durometer, which then leads to inertia ring slippage, damper failure, uncontrolled torsional vibration, and costly engine parts breakage.
05-04-2009, 01:04 PM
#287
And for those that believe Excelerate's argument that all domestic V8s and Nissan motors are externally balanced, check out the Fluidampr website and you'll see that they note the balancing of the motor under each specific motor parts listing. The Nissan motors are internally balanced as well as the listed Hondas, Toyota, GM LT/LS series motors, etc.
05-04-2009, 01:40 PM
#288
Burning Brakes
http://www.fluidampr.com/HOWITWORKS.htm
It should also be noted that adding the UDP changes the mass of the rotating assembly therefore you might be introducing a different freqency vibration that is way out of factory spec. Remove the damper and change the rotating assembly weight and you might be walking on egg shells and/or reducing the life of your J-series. How long has the UDP been available for this motor? 1 or 2 years? Who's run one the longest? Do a search on this site for "UDP" and "vibration" and you'll see people reporting new engine vibrations with their UDPs. My VQ30 was super smooth, it was inline 6 smooth. Adding the UDP introduced some upper rpm (5000-7200rpms) grainess that could be felt through the pedals and shifter. The motor also sounded a bit strained and mechanical in the upper rpms. Putting the OEM pulley back on restored the famous VQ30 buttery smoothness.
Rubber VS Silicone Fluid
Critical harmonic vibrations occur numerous times in a engine’s operating range. Stock rubber and elastomer-type dampers are frequency sensitive “tuned absorbers”, and work at only one critical frequency. In the case of a stock rubber damper, it is tuned for a factory engine’s critical harmonic vibrations. If you change the mass of pistons, rods, or the crankshaft, you change the natural frequency of the crankshaft assembly; therefore, the stock damper is no longer tuned to the new frequency of vibration, and you may be headed for early failure of expensive engine components. Dampers also create heat while they work, and rubber is a poor dissipator of heat. This heat and the exposure to the elements deteriorates rubber, causing it to crack and change durometer, which then leads to inertia ring slippage, damper failure, uncontrolled torsional vibration, and costly engine parts breakage.
Critical harmonic vibrations occur numerous times in a engine’s operating range. Stock rubber and elastomer-type dampers are frequency sensitive “tuned absorbers”, and work at only one critical frequency. In the case of a stock rubber damper, it is tuned for a factory engine’s critical harmonic vibrations. If you change the mass of pistons, rods, or the crankshaft, you change the natural frequency of the crankshaft assembly; therefore, the stock damper is no longer tuned to the new frequency of vibration, and you may be headed for early failure of expensive engine components. Dampers also create heat while they work, and rubber is a poor dissipator of heat. This heat and the exposure to the elements deteriorates rubber, causing it to crack and change durometer, which then leads to inertia ring slippage, damper failure, uncontrolled torsional vibration, and costly engine parts breakage.
05-04-2009, 02:18 PM
#289
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What I mean is:
Gear ratio is constant. In first gear, redline is (iirc) ~47 mph; If I rev faster with a lightweight pulley, I get to 47 MPH faster = my car is faster. Etc, for 2nd gear, 3rd gear, and so on.
Now can I personally prove that I actually rev faster or by how much? Not really.
1/4 mile: lots of variables (driver, temp, track PLUS mods);
Dyno: again, outside variables (temp, machine variation, etc).
Just an awareness of how your car acts - i.e. the ever present Butt Dyno.
http://www.fluidampr.com/HOWITWORKS.htm
It should also be noted that adding the UDP changes the mass of the rotating assembly therefore you might be introducing a different freqency vibration that is way out of factory spec. Remove the damper and change the rotating assembly weight and you might be walking on egg shells and/or reducing the life of your J-series. How long has the UDP been available for this motor? 1 or 2 years? Who's run one the longest? Do a search on this site for "UDP" and "vibration" and you'll see people reporting new engine vibrations with their UDPs. My VQ30 was super smooth, it was inline 6 smooth. Adding the UDP introduced some upper rpm (5000-7200rpms) grainess that could be felt through the pedals and shifter. The motor also sounded a bit strained and mechanical in the upper rpms. Putting the OEM pulley back on restored the famous VQ30 buttery smoothness.
It should also be noted that adding the UDP changes the mass of the rotating assembly therefore you might be introducing a different freqency vibration that is way out of factory spec. Remove the damper and change the rotating assembly weight and you might be walking on egg shells and/or reducing the life of your J-series. How long has the UDP been available for this motor? 1 or 2 years? Who's run one the longest? Do a search on this site for "UDP" and "vibration" and you'll see people reporting new engine vibrations with their UDPs. My VQ30 was super smooth, it was inline 6 smooth. Adding the UDP introduced some upper rpm (5000-7200rpms) grainess that could be felt through the pedals and shifter. The motor also sounded a bit strained and mechanical in the upper rpms. Putting the OEM pulley back on restored the famous VQ30 buttery smoothness.
UR pulley's have been run on J32 series motors for A LOT longer than "1 or 2" years. Some users have in excess of 150 or 200 thousand miles with the motor and the pulley. This has been posted more than once in this debate; you accuse others of not reading/understanding your posts and/or links - are you reading what others are writing?
05-04-2009, 02:30 PM
#290
It should also be noted that adding the UDP changes the mass of the rotating assembly therefore you might be introducing a different freqency vibration that is way out of factory spec. Remove the damper and change the rotating assembly weight and you might be walking on egg shells and/or reducing the life of your J-series. How long has the UDP been available for this motor? 1 or 2 years? Who's run one the longest? Do a search on this site for "UDP" and "vibration" and you'll see people reporting new engine vibrations with their UDPs. My VQ30 was super smooth, it was inline 6 smooth. Adding the UDP introduced some upper rpm (5000-7200rpms) grainess that could be felt through the pedals and shifter. The motor also sounded a bit strained and mechanical in the upper rpms. Putting the OEM pulley back on restored the famous VQ30 buttery smoothness.
05-04-2009, 02:46 PM
#291
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http://www.fluidampr.com/HOWITWORKS.htm
It should also be noted that adding the UDP changes the mass of the rotating assembly therefore you might be introducing a different freqency vibration that is way out of factory spec. Remove the damper and change the rotating assembly weight and you might be walking on egg shells and/or reducing the life of your J-series. How long has the UDP been available for this motor? 1 or 2 years? Who's run one the longest? Do a search on this site for "UDP" and "vibration" and you'll see people reporting new engine vibrations with their UDPs. My VQ30 was super smooth, it was inline 6 smooth. Adding the UDP introduced some upper rpm (5000-7200rpms) grainess that could be felt through the pedals and shifter. The motor also sounded a bit strained and mechanical in the upper rpms. Putting the OEM pulley back on restored the famous VQ30 buttery smoothness.
Rubber VS Silicone Fluid
Critical harmonic vibrations occur numerous times in a engine’s operating range. Stock rubber and elastomer-type dampers are frequency sensitive “tuned absorbers”, and work at only one critical frequency. In the case of a stock rubber damper, it is tuned for a factory engine’s critical harmonic vibrations. If you change the mass of pistons, rods, or the crankshaft, you change the natural frequency of the crankshaft assembly; therefore, the stock damper is no longer tuned to the new frequency of vibration, and you may be headed for early failure of expensive engine components. Dampers also create heat while they work, and rubber is a poor dissipator of heat. This heat and the exposure to the elements deteriorates rubber, causing it to crack and change durometer, which then leads to inertia ring slippage, damper failure, uncontrolled torsional vibration, and costly engine parts breakage.
Critical harmonic vibrations occur numerous times in a engine’s operating range. Stock rubber and elastomer-type dampers are frequency sensitive “tuned absorbers”, and work at only one critical frequency. In the case of a stock rubber damper, it is tuned for a factory engine’s critical harmonic vibrations. If you change the mass of pistons, rods, or the crankshaft, you change the natural frequency of the crankshaft assembly; therefore, the stock damper is no longer tuned to the new frequency of vibration, and you may be headed for early failure of expensive engine components. Dampers also create heat while they work, and rubber is a poor dissipator of heat. This heat and the exposure to the elements deteriorates rubber, causing it to crack and change durometer, which then leads to inertia ring slippage, damper failure, uncontrolled torsional vibration, and costly engine parts breakage.
It should also be noted that adding the UDP changes the mass of the rotating assembly therefore you might be introducing a different freqency vibration that is way out of factory spec. Remove the damper and change the rotating assembly weight and you might be walking on egg shells and/or reducing the life of your J-series. How long has the UDP been available for this motor? 1 or 2 years? Who's run one the longest? Do a search on this site for "UDP" and "vibration" and you'll see people reporting new engine vibrations with their UDPs. My VQ30 was super smooth, it was inline 6 smooth. Adding the UDP introduced some upper rpm (5000-7200rpms) grainess that could be felt through the pedals and shifter. The motor also sounded a bit strained and mechanical in the upper rpms. Putting the OEM pulley back on restored the famous VQ30 buttery smoothness.
Dave_B, I went and looked back at the part number on the OE Pulley. The same identical part is used from '05 - '08 on the TL/TL-S/RL and '05 - '09 MDX.
BUT, these builds/models do NOT share identical Piston sets, Rods or Crank Shafts. Your post quoted above would then imply that while they use different parts, they weigh exactly the same. But I find this somewhat unlikely; that is there is probably some variation in specification. If so, then how does one damper "tuned .... work at only one critical frequency" work on more than three different engine compenent specifications?
05-04-2009, 03:00 PM
#292
Burning Brakes
Dave_B, I went and looked back at the part number on the OE Pulley. The same identical part is used from '05 - '08 on the TL/TL-S/RL and '05 - '09 MDX.
BUT, these builds/models do NOT share identical Piston sets, Rods or Crank Shafts. Your post quoted above would then imply that while they use different parts, they weigh exactly the same. But I find this somewhat unlikely; that is there is probably some variation in specification. If so, then how does one damper "tuned .... work at only one critical frequency" work on more than three different engine compenent specifications?
BUT, these builds/models do NOT share identical Piston sets, Rods or Crank Shafts. Your post quoted above would then imply that while they use different parts, they weigh exactly the same. But I find this somewhat unlikely; that is there is probably some variation in specification. If so, then how does one damper "tuned .... work at only one critical frequency" work on more than three different engine compenent specifications?
05-04-2009, 03:19 PM
#293
I ran the UDP on my stock 3.2L 2G CL-S for 40,000 miles. We cracked the motor open to stroke it to 3.5L. Motor was mint inside. We did not find anything abnormal at all about the motor. Put it back together with the 3.5L crank, rods, and pistons (which btw are different as well), put the UDP back on, and ran that for years with not a problem.
05-04-2009, 03:33 PM
#294
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Great advice by a great mind: "What's the problem? Throw some duct tape on it!"
05-04-2009, 03:34 PM
#295
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
I ran the UDP on my stock 3.2L 2G CL-S for 40,000 miles. We cracked the motor open to stroke it to 3.5L. Motor was mint inside. We did not find anything abnormal at all about the motor. Put it back together with the 3.5L crank, rods, and pistons (which btw are different as well), put the UDP back on, and ran that for years with not a problem.
05-04-2009, 03:51 PM
#296
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Changing mass from the pulley wasn't mentioned in the quote you posted. It was talking about the "rotating crank assembly", so I assumed the pulley wasn't included in creating the primary resonance frequency.
Must be a royal PITA to design when your damping instrument is effecting/changing the natural frequency you are trying to dampen.
05-04-2009, 04:00 PM
#297
practicing nihilist
he's like that booger that you just can't flick off your finger, isn't he.
05-04-2009, 04:10 PM
#298
Burning Brakes
So you're saying the OE Pulley dampens crank/rod/piston vibration PLUS pulley vibration?
Changing mass from the pulley wasn't mentioned in the quote you posted. It was talking about the "rotating crank assembly", so I assumed the pulley wasn't included in creating the primary resonance frequency.
Must be a royal PITA to design when your damping instrument is effecting/changing the natural frequency you are trying to dampen.
Changing mass from the pulley wasn't mentioned in the quote you posted. It was talking about the "rotating crank assembly", so I assumed the pulley wasn't included in creating the primary resonance frequency.
Must be a royal PITA to design when your damping instrument is effecting/changing the natural frequency you are trying to dampen.
You guys know I'm right about this. The OEM pulley is a damper. Your arguments are getting weaker by the post
05-04-2009, 04:24 PM
#299
Burning Brakes
I posted the Fluidampr FAQ because it outlines the purpose of the rubber/elastomer ring which is used as a damper on OEM crank pulleys. Fluidampr has no reason to post this other than the fact they're trying to show that if you rev your motor higher than stock, for extended periods, or change the rotating assembly, their product is superior to the factory CRANK DAMPER.
05-04-2009, 04:41 PM
#300
practicing nihilist
05-04-2009, 07:21 PM
#301
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When in doubt contact the experts
Thank you. I made the same suggestion a few days back (on this thread) detailing how one might be able to get around the OEM's roadblock to their design release engineers. Good luck.
05-04-2009, 07:27 PM
#302
Honda does that in Europe and Japan....
I'd like to have those Type-R/Mugen cars here in the US.... those are sick...
It'll be nice to listen and hear the recommendation from Honda/Acura...
In a way, it'll be beneficial for both the manufacturer and consumers... cuz, then Honda/Acura could get 1st hand feedbacks, and same for us, a better understanding regarding what can be done, and how should be done...
05-04-2009, 08:24 PM
#303
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Homework for the Pulley Guys
So, if:
1.) We know the OEM pulley sells retail for around $50 (per Acurazine member on this thread), we can reasonably and conservatively assume the OEM most likely pays less than $20 to the supplier to manufacture the OEM pulley.
2.) We know the lightweight pulley costs less to manufacture based on the fact it weighs about 5 lbs less (less raw materials) than the OEM pulley and requires less complexity to manufacture due to its simple design.
Therefore, the lightweight pulley should cost less than $15 to manufacture.
If our great vendor is telling us he only makes about $35 profit on a $200 pulley that costs $15 to make, that must mean his manufacturer is making a profit of about $150 on a $200 item.
Thanks for sharing your experience. You have some good points that I think we all need to take into consideration before considering the purchase of an aftermarket lightweight pulley.
My take away from this thread is quite significant. It appears many of the claims (whether they are right or wrong) about the lightweight pulley is unsubstantiated. We need to ask ourselves a lot of questions:
1. How does the manufacturer substantiate their HP gains?
2. Are there before and after dyno charts with successive pulls?
3. How many dyno pulls where done before and after?
4. What variables where held constant for the dyno pull and which ones where not.
5. Who would want to purchase something that is proven out by the target audience (us test rats)? I think the burden of proof lies on the manufacturer to substantiate all claims through generally accepted industry standards, not consumers.
Just like investing (think about Bernie Madoff), if it appears to be too good, it usually is. Of course, saying one has been in business for "X" amount of time means absolutely nothing... we need to dig deeper for scientific proof from the manufacturer... they are the ones making the claims and should be responsible to substantiate them.
My take away from this thread is quite significant. It appears many of the claims (whether they are right or wrong) about the lightweight pulley is unsubstantiated. We need to ask ourselves a lot of questions:
1. How does the manufacturer substantiate their HP gains?
2. Are there before and after dyno charts with successive pulls?
3. How many dyno pulls where done before and after?
4. What variables where held constant for the dyno pull and which ones where not.
5. Who would want to purchase something that is proven out by the target audience (us test rats)? I think the burden of proof lies on the manufacturer to substantiate all claims through generally accepted industry standards, not consumers.
Just like investing (think about Bernie Madoff), if it appears to be too good, it usually is. Of course, saying one has been in business for "X" amount of time means absolutely nothing... we need to dig deeper for scientific proof from the manufacturer... they are the ones making the claims and should be responsible to substantiate them.
I'm sorry but there is a huge difference between automotive industry experience and actual automotive experience. You and Dave B may be able to comment on the corporate side of matters, how to crunch numbers and look at sales graphs, and most importantly how to explain theory but you are both far from being experienced with motors. Neither of you can think outside the box; that is why engineers do what they do and motor guys do what they do.
I think you should offer the same warning to people reading your and Dave B's posts. What factual support do you or Dave B have? There are plenty of J series motors with over 200k with no issues. That's fact. What you guys are offering is theory.
I think you should offer the same warning to people reading your and Dave B's posts. What factual support do you or Dave B have? There are plenty of J series motors with over 200k with no issues. That's fact. What you guys are offering is theory.
It is unfair to expect the end item user to do your due diligence. Any attempt to trick or mislead enthusiasts is is not right and is unethical. I suggest the manufacturer have a reputable 3rd party industry expert verify any performance claims through appropriate testing and publish the results. Is this asking too much?
05-04-2009, 08:27 PM
#304
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Hi Jester61, I have been following this thread almost daily as I am one of those ppl deciding on the UR pulley and whether or not to go for it. Just out of fairness sake, I noticed you just joined Acurazine today? Have only 2 posts and both back to back in this thread. Can you let all the members know if you were solicited or invited by someone from the "for UR pulley group" to come on here? What is your background to provide info? Do you drive a 3G TL? Ppl have flamed Dave_B and asked him to leave the Acurazine forums as he does not drive an Acura. So I think the last question is important. Thanks for humouring me if you decide to answer the questions.
Please be careful when commenting without any factual support about cost or attempting to dismiss others claims ... especially if you have no purchasing or design experience with an OEM.
Keep in mind, the people who design and purchase parts for a living with years of experience are commenting within this thread. These are degreed folks (some with advanced degrees and have annual spends of more than $100 million a year). I think we are lucky to have this talent available to us enthusiasts.
Whether you guys agree with me or not about the dampening effect of the OEM pulley, I've put these things to test, both on the strip and the dyno. That's a lot more than 99% of the people do when it comes to verifying the validity of power claims.
As for death by hyperlink, I knew I'd get questioned and flamed regarding the UDP. It's was the same way on the Maxima, G, and Z sites. When you debate, you need references to back up your argument therefore I posted them. This is a very detailed subject and you need to understand the principles at hand.
As for death by hyperlink, I knew I'd get questioned and flamed regarding the UDP. It's was the same way on the Maxima, G, and Z sites. When you debate, you need references to back up your argument therefore I posted them. This is a very detailed subject and you need to understand the principles at hand.
BTW answer this question.
(you say that the factory pulleys are a proper damper but yet I can show you proof of early 90's cars that don't even have a rubber ring in them. what do you say to that? Also, since I mentioned that weight is in important factor in a proper balancer why is it the factory pulleys are getting lighter and using less damper material and making a lot more horsepower?)
First off, where did you come from? What's your automotive experience. Who brought you here?
I have no idea where you got the idea that a Fluidampr is dangerous for a motor. Please post up some links of these units failing and destroying motors. Fluidampers are superior in design to the OEM crank damper hence the reason they're used on NHRA drag cars (domestic and import), NASCARs, and numerous competition level SCCA auto-x/road race cars.
And for those that believe Excelerate's argument that all domestic V8s and Nissan motors are externally balanced, check out the Fluidampr website and you'll see that they note the balancing of the motor under each specific motor parts listing. The Nissan motors are internally balanced as well as the listed Hondas, Toyota, GM LT/LS series motors, etc.
http://www.fluidampr.com/NISSAN.htm
Here is the "How it works" FAQ for the Fluidampr, take special note of the Rubber vs Silicone Fluid section and how they SPECIFICALLY note the rubber/elastomer rings wedged in the OEM crank pulleys that are used for dampening certain order vibrations. How many different times do I need to link references to this to make you guys understand that the ring isn't there to reduce accessory noise. UR has really spread this misinformation thick.
I have no idea where you got the idea that a Fluidampr is dangerous for a motor. Please post up some links of these units failing and destroying motors. Fluidampers are superior in design to the OEM crank damper hence the reason they're used on NHRA drag cars (domestic and import), NASCARs, and numerous competition level SCCA auto-x/road race cars.
And for those that believe Excelerate's argument that all domestic V8s and Nissan motors are externally balanced, check out the Fluidampr website and you'll see that they note the balancing of the motor under each specific motor parts listing. The Nissan motors are internally balanced as well as the listed Hondas, Toyota, GM LT/LS series motors, etc.
http://www.fluidampr.com/NISSAN.htm
Here is the "How it works" FAQ for the Fluidampr, take special note of the Rubber vs Silicone Fluid section and how they SPECIFICALLY note the rubber/elastomer rings wedged in the OEM crank pulleys that are used for dampening certain order vibrations. How many different times do I need to link references to this to make you guys understand that the ring isn't there to reduce accessory noise. UR has really spread this misinformation thick.
If you guys need futhur proof why else would Honda themselves offer this for the b-series motors?
http://yhst-1408381693991.stores.yah...cityrcrpu.html
05-04-2009, 08:36 PM
#305
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Very true Dave!
For example, we release different part numbers for the same exact part when we have a second source (alternative supplier).
For example, we release different part numbers for the same exact part when we have a second source (alternative supplier).
Last edited by Acura Jeff; 05-04-2009 at 08:37 PM. Reason: duplicate
05-04-2009, 09:31 PM
#306
http://www.fluidampr.com/HOWITWORKS.htm
It should also be noted that adding the UDP changes the mass of the rotating assembly therefore you might be introducing a different freqency vibration that is way out of factory spec. Remove the damper and change the rotating assembly weight and you might be walking on egg shells and/or reducing the life of your J-series. How long has the UDP been available for this motor? 1 or 2 years? Who's run one the longest? Do a search on this site for "UDP" and "vibration" and you'll see people reporting new engine vibrations with their UDPs. My VQ30 was super smooth, it was inline 6 smooth. Adding the UDP introduced some upper rpm (5000-7200rpms) grainess that could be felt through the pedals and shifter. The motor also sounded a bit strained and mechanical in the upper rpms. Putting the OEM pulley back on restored the famous VQ30 buttery smoothness.
It should also be noted that adding the UDP changes the mass of the rotating assembly therefore you might be introducing a different freqency vibration that is way out of factory spec. Remove the damper and change the rotating assembly weight and you might be walking on egg shells and/or reducing the life of your J-series. How long has the UDP been available for this motor? 1 or 2 years? Who's run one the longest? Do a search on this site for "UDP" and "vibration" and you'll see people reporting new engine vibrations with their UDPs. My VQ30 was super smooth, it was inline 6 smooth. Adding the UDP introduced some upper rpm (5000-7200rpms) grainess that could be felt through the pedals and shifter. The motor also sounded a bit strained and mechanical in the upper rpms. Putting the OEM pulley back on restored the famous VQ30 buttery smoothness.
Do you guys have any idea how a frequency works? Your argument is that you are trying to prove the stock pulley acts as a damper. Well if that is true, then how does Honda utilize the same pulley across DIFFERENT motors. I have had 3.2L crankshaft, rods, and pistons and 3.5L crankshaft, rods, and pistons in front of me. They are different. There is no way you could make them both have the same critical frequency. When you change rotational mass (yes, even in ounces), you change it's critical frequency.
Someone above posted the Honda race pulley for the B series motor. What they do is chop off the extra pulley grooves for the accessory belt. Again, if what you are saying is true, then they are changing the weight of this by pounds and compromising the motor. HONDA is doing this. Hm.
Last edited by CleanCL; 05-04-2009 at 09:35 PM.
05-04-2009, 09:41 PM
#307
practicing nihilist
If you guys need futhur proof why else would Honda themselves offer this for the b-series motors?
http://yhst-1408381693991.stores.yah...cityrcrpu.html
http://yhst-1408381693991.stores.yah...cityrcrpu.html
05-04-2009, 10:50 PM
#308
Burning Brakes
Here's your interesting response:
http://www.ek9.org/forum/resource-ar...-advice-4.html
An N1 (solid) crank pulley is another item that was featured on the race base model. Not recommended for daily drivers as Spoon president explicitly mentions that it does not dampen the harmonics and estimates the bearings are only good for 25,000kms on the street OR a season on the track (provided you don't blow the motor sooner)
05-04-2009, 10:55 PM
#309
Burning Brakes
Do you guys have any idea how a frequency works? Your argument is that you are trying to prove the stock pulley acts as a damper. Well if that is true, then how does Honda utilize the same pulley across DIFFERENT motors. I have had 3.2L crankshaft, rods, and pistons and 3.5L crankshaft, rods, and pistons in front of me. They are different. There is no way you could make them both have the same critical frequency. When you change rotational mass (yes, even in ounces), you change it's critical frequency.
05-04-2009, 10:59 PM
#310
I don't believe these points where addressed. In other words, he did not deny the excessive profitability.
So, if:
1.) We know the OEM pulley sells retail for around $50 (per Acurazine member on this thread), we can reasonably and conservatively assume the OEM most likely pays less than $20 to the supplier to manufacture the OEM pulley.
2.) We know the lightweight pulley costs less to manufacture based on the fact it weighs about 5 lbs less (less raw materials) than the OEM pulley and requires less complexity to manufacture due to its simple design.
Therefore, the lightweight pulley should cost less than $15 to manufacture.
If our great vendor is telling us he only makes about $35 profit on a $200 pulley that costs $15 to make, that must mean his manufacturer is making a profit of about $150 on a $200 item.
So, if:
1.) We know the OEM pulley sells retail for around $50 (per Acurazine member on this thread), we can reasonably and conservatively assume the OEM most likely pays less than $20 to the supplier to manufacture the OEM pulley.
2.) We know the lightweight pulley costs less to manufacture based on the fact it weighs about 5 lbs less (less raw materials) than the OEM pulley and requires less complexity to manufacture due to its simple design.
Therefore, the lightweight pulley should cost less than $15 to manufacture.
If our great vendor is telling us he only makes about $35 profit on a $200 pulley that costs $15 to make, that must mean his manufacturer is making a profit of about $150 on a $200 item.
I mean this is the most ridiculous debate. That being said, b/c neither of you can think outside of the box so here is some real world info:
1. The only reason the OE part is so cheap is because the car is in production. When they change to the next gen or make a motor change that pulley will become $150 to $200. You will see.
2. So it costs less because it weighs less? Wow, what would happen if we made it out of titanium? I guess it would cost even less!
Let’s see. After UR does their R&D they have rent, office insurance, liability insurance (of which I confirmed like my own shop they carry 2,000,000.00). Then there’s heat, electric, machine payments, tooling costs constantly as they were out, advertising costs, inventory costs, salaries, health care costs, accountant costs, state taxes, federal taxes, inventory taxes, corporate taxes, unemployment taxes, etc. All I can say is you are pretty far off on pure manufacturing cost, then you need to double the raw manufacturing costs just to cover all the other costs then there is the 1/3 of profit which has consistently fallen due to an almost tripling of material costs since UR has started.
Mr. Excelerate, I am addressing you because you seem to have taken the role of a product rep for lightweight pulleys. Please help us understand why you failed to address the 5 points above. I would think any manufacturer would do its due diligence to prove out their own product without relying on the consumers product longevity or postings. Selling a product and then claim we have no "reported" issues and have been in the business for so many years so the product must be good does not validate the product's performance gains.
Mr. Excelerate, I think you know the onus of proof lies on the manufacturer. Asking the consumer to prove out your product and its performance gains at no cost to you is completely unacceptable. This type of thinking indicates the manufacturer is unable to adequately validate their own claims. I find that completely scarey.
It is unfair to expect the end item user to do your due diligence. Any attempt to trick or mislead enthusiasts is is not right and is unethical. I suggest the manufacturer have a reputable 3rd party industry expert verify any performance claims through appropriate testing and publish the results. Is this asking too much?
Mr. Excelerate, I think you know the onus of proof lies on the manufacturer. Asking the consumer to prove out your product and its performance gains at no cost to you is completely unacceptable. This type of thinking indicates the manufacturer is unable to adequately validate their own claims. I find that completely scarey.
It is unfair to expect the end item user to do your due diligence. Any attempt to trick or mislead enthusiasts is is not right and is unethical. I suggest the manufacturer have a reputable 3rd party industry expert verify any performance claims through appropriate testing and publish the results. Is this asking too much?
The funny thing is you guys ask for info from the manufacturer and then when we provide it it's somehow irrelevant and biased. So which is it? Do you want info or do you not want it? I have given you dynos; I have given you independent dynos. I have given you research, I have given you firsthand experiences, I have given you real world info, and other members have commented on the same. Go ahead and pay a 3rd party industry expert to verify the performance claims. Oh wait what's that?
http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/04...set/index.html
Oh my god. It's a link to a dyno graph by a 3rd party industry expert and it's even on a Nissan.
05-04-2009, 11:23 PM
#311
Burning Brakes
Look on UR's website. They have a plethora of information on dynos, crank pulleys, underdriving, dampers, engine questions, etc
The funny thing is you guys ask for info from the manufacturer and then when we provide it it's somehow irrelevant and biased. So which is it? Do you want info or do you not want it? I have given you dynos; I have given you independent dynos. I have given you research, I have given you firsthand experiences, I have given you real world info, and other members have commented on the same. Go ahead and pay a 3rd party industry expert to verify the performance claims. Oh wait what's that?
http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/04...set/index.html
Oh my god. It's a link to a dyno graph by a 3rd party industry expert and it's even on a Nissan.
The funny thing is you guys ask for info from the manufacturer and then when we provide it it's somehow irrelevant and biased. So which is it? Do you want info or do you not want it? I have given you dynos; I have given you independent dynos. I have given you research, I have given you firsthand experiences, I have given you real world info, and other members have commented on the same. Go ahead and pay a 3rd party industry expert to verify the performance claims. Oh wait what's that?
http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/04...set/index.html
Oh my god. It's a link to a dyno graph by a 3rd party industry expert and it's even on a Nissan.
Apparently you don't have a single J-series dyno to rely on either. Interesting.
05-05-2009, 07:26 AM
#312
practicing nihilist
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/genera...fluidampr.html
Here's an LS1 forum supporting ATI pulleys over Fluidampr. Testimonial included about failed cranks from "water damper" pulleys
http://www.atiracing.com/products/da...amper_tech.htm
Uh-oh, another link. Basically, ATI uses an elastomer design like stock however, notes that the stock pulley is tuned for just that - a stock motor. Once you modify output parameters it's essentially useless and the theory is supported via point paper by a very large craniumed individual certified by SAE.
While your bullshittin', guess how ATI saves that all that weight? If you said an ALUMINUN hub, give yourself a reach around.
ATI says their pulleys will make up to 45hp over Fluidampr and up o 30hp over stocker. But they didn't have at least 3 dyno graphs to prove this so we obviously can't trust them.
So, there you go. 3 very different designs for the same application, each shooting holes in the others design. They all do something good and UR is the only company that makes one for the J series motor. I still argue that the scores of original Honda civics rolling with a half million miles underscores the fact that the Japanese have always had more stringent tolerances, resulting in more tolerant, longer lasting engines.
05-05-2009, 07:53 AM
#313
And if this is such an expensive process for the manufacturer, more expensive than an aluminum pulley as you state, how come the manufacturer decided to design a whole new pulley that is lighter for the 3.7L motor? Why not just share the same exact pulley that was already designed and manufactured?
Seriously, you guys are warping your arguments to fit your own beliefs. No where are you showing any consistency with your facts. You also choose to ignore the posts and information.
05-05-2009, 09:15 AM
#314
Burning Brakes
Weren't you arguing a few pages back how similar the J and VQ series motors are?
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/genera...fluidampr.html
Here's an LS1 forum supporting ATI pulleys over Fluidampr. Testimonial included about failed cranks from "water damper" pulleys
http://www.atiracing.com/products/da...amper_tech.htm
Uh-oh, another link. Basically, ATI uses an elastomer design like stock however, notes that the stock pulley is tuned for just that - a stock motor. Once you modify output parameters it's essentially useless and the theory is supported via point paper by a very large craniumed individual certified by SAE.
While your bullshittin', guess how ATI saves that all that weight? If you said an ALUMINUN hub, give yourself a reach around.
So, there you go. 3 very different designs for the same application, each shooting holes in the others design. They all do something good and UR is the only company that makes one for the J series motor. I still argue that the scores of original Honda civics rolling with a half million miles underscores the fact that the Japanese have always had more stringent tolerances, resulting in more tolerant, longer lasting engines.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/genera...fluidampr.html
Here's an LS1 forum supporting ATI pulleys over Fluidampr. Testimonial included about failed cranks from "water damper" pulleys
http://www.atiracing.com/products/da...amper_tech.htm
Uh-oh, another link. Basically, ATI uses an elastomer design like stock however, notes that the stock pulley is tuned for just that - a stock motor. Once you modify output parameters it's essentially useless and the theory is supported via point paper by a very large craniumed individual certified by SAE.
While your bullshittin', guess how ATI saves that all that weight? If you said an ALUMINUN hub, give yourself a reach around.
So, there you go. 3 very different designs for the same application, each shooting holes in the others design. They all do something good and UR is the only company that makes one for the J series motor. I still argue that the scores of original Honda civics rolling with a half million miles underscores the fact that the Japanese have always had more stringent tolerances, resulting in more tolerant, longer lasting engines.
As for the aluminum hub on the ATI unit, that's fine because they use a pressed in hardened steel sleeve for the key way. You can get these hubs in either steel or aluminum. The UR I had for my VQ30 had the same hardened sleeve. This was done to keep the crank bolt from overstressing the soft aluminum. For whatever reason, UR stopped using the hardened sleeves.
05-05-2009, 09:42 AM
#315
Burning Brakes
There is a frequency range with it comes to crankshaft torsional vibration. A simple Google search using "crankshaft torsional vibration frequency range" will shoot your argument down in a 0.2 second search.
Who arguing about weight? Weight has nothing to do with this argument at all. The fact that the 3.7 pulley is 2lbs lighter is meaningless. As for why the pulley is different on the 3.7 vs the 3.2-3.5, there are potentially numerous reasons why Honda decided is was necessary to change the pulley design.
And if this is such an expensive process for the manufacturer, more expensive than an aluminum pulley as you state, how come the manufacturer decided to design a whole new pulley that is lighter for the 3.7L motor? Why not just share the same exact pulley that was already designed and manufactured?
05-05-2009, 10:24 AM
#316
AZ Community Team
Join Date: May 2007
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Here's a J-Series:
And yes, asking for independent 3rd party testing is too much to ask. NO ONE else does that - not after market intakes, brakes, exhausts OR pulleys. They all operate the same way: a test car is used for fitment and dyno and that dyno is run by/for the manufacturer. AND none of those after market parts companies (afaik) re-runs the dyno on every model/iteration of the same platform (TL AT, TL MT, TL-S AT, TL-S MT for example).
I will say that neither side has proven, hands-down, that they are correct; and niether side ever will. The resources are not available to get an engine, run it stock, find the dominant natural resonance frequency and quantify any vibration, add the OE pulley, remeasure, change the pulley, remeasure, get some more engines, run the two pulleys for extended time and determine durabilty, engine wear, crank weakness, etc, etc. ONLY the manufacturer has resources like that and if such a test were ever performed, it'll never see the light of day here.
So far the only compeling argument (IMO) is the fact that MANY people use the UR product over MANY miles with no apparent harmful effect. Have any failed? Sounds like a "few". But don't make like OE parts never fail or are always engineered to the utmost durability; Honda/Acura had 1,100,000 transmission recalls and 273,000 (that's nearly every 3G TL built up to 2008) Power Steering Hose recalls.
Also, FWIW, retail (i.e Dealer Parts Desk) on the OE Pulley is ~$170 for the 3G TL.
And yes, asking for independent 3rd party testing is too much to ask. NO ONE else does that - not after market intakes, brakes, exhausts OR pulleys. They all operate the same way: a test car is used for fitment and dyno and that dyno is run by/for the manufacturer. AND none of those after market parts companies (afaik) re-runs the dyno on every model/iteration of the same platform (TL AT, TL MT, TL-S AT, TL-S MT for example).
I will say that neither side has proven, hands-down, that they are correct; and niether side ever will. The resources are not available to get an engine, run it stock, find the dominant natural resonance frequency and quantify any vibration, add the OE pulley, remeasure, change the pulley, remeasure, get some more engines, run the two pulleys for extended time and determine durabilty, engine wear, crank weakness, etc, etc. ONLY the manufacturer has resources like that and if such a test were ever performed, it'll never see the light of day here.
So far the only compeling argument (IMO) is the fact that MANY people use the UR product over MANY miles with no apparent harmful effect. Have any failed? Sounds like a "few". But don't make like OE parts never fail or are always engineered to the utmost durability; Honda/Acura had 1,100,000 transmission recalls and 273,000 (that's nearly every 3G TL built up to 2008) Power Steering Hose recalls.
Also, FWIW, retail (i.e Dealer Parts Desk) on the OE Pulley is ~$170 for the 3G TL.
05-05-2009, 11:38 AM
#317
6th Gear
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Wrong! UR uses steel sleeves only on certain pulleys that ride the oil seal. VQ motors being one of them. because if you don't the aluminum will wear and leak oil. they still use them. TL motors don't require this.
05-05-2009, 11:40 AM
#318
Burning Brakes
Here's a J-Series:
And yes, asking for independent 3rd party testing is too much to ask. NO ONE else does that - not after market intakes, brakes, exhausts OR pulleys. They all operate the same way: a test car is used for fitment and dyno and that dyno is run by/for the manufacturer. AND none of those after market parts companies (afaik) re-runs the dyno on every model/iteration of the same platform (TL AT, TL MT, TL-S AT, TL-S MT for example).
And yes, asking for independent 3rd party testing is too much to ask. NO ONE else does that - not after market intakes, brakes, exhausts OR pulleys. They all operate the same way: a test car is used for fitment and dyno and that dyno is run by/for the manufacturer. AND none of those after market parts companies (afaik) re-runs the dyno on every model/iteration of the same platform (TL AT, TL MT, TL-S AT, TL-S MT for example).
It's amazing to me that the J-series pulleys have been around for years yet no one on this site has done a before an after dyno or before and after 1/4 mile runs.
05-05-2009, 11:42 AM
#319
Who arguing about weight? Weight has nothing to do with this argument at all. The fact that the 3.7 pulley is 2lbs lighter is meaningless. As for why the pulley is different on the 3.7 vs the 3.2-3.5, there are potentially numerous reasons why Honda decided is was necessary to change the pulley design.
05-05-2009, 12:20 PM
#320
practicing nihilist
talk about missing the target. I'm glad you push spread sheets and not precision guided weapons.
the gist of my last blast was that you site Fluidampr crapping on UR; I site ATI crapping on Fluidampr; etc., and so on.
the only constant in this debate is a couple unhappy Nissan owners vs. many satisfied Acura owners with 100's of thousands of miles of pain free proof.
Men, concentrate your fire. This is his final stand in a losing battle. Similar to 300 or The Last Samarai, Dave will lose with honor but, he will lose.
the gist of my last blast was that you site Fluidampr crapping on UR; I site ATI crapping on Fluidampr; etc., and so on.
the only constant in this debate is a couple unhappy Nissan owners vs. many satisfied Acura owners with 100's of thousands of miles of pain free proof.
Men, concentrate your fire. This is his final stand in a losing battle. Similar to 300 or The Last Samarai, Dave will lose with honor but, he will lose.