Dave_B

Ohhh ya got me Your first link doesn't have a single dyno plot. Your second link shows a TSX gaining an average of 4whp/4wtq across the powerband which even if that gain were legit, wouldn't make a squat of difference in the 1/4. There's only a before and after dyno which are spread across 3 months time. You really need at least 2 (if not 3) before runs and the same for the after modification runs. I also need to know correction factors because the higher the CF, the more skewed the data. Surely you know that motors don't dyno the same number everytime on back to back dynos. Usually you'll see a 3 to 5whp difference between back to back runs with no changes to the car. On turbo cars you could be looking at up near 20whp difference between runs. You could easily take the worst run and compare to the best run and claim waving your magic wand added 5whp.


You've disproven nothing and nor can tell me to go anywhere. I haven't violated any rules and you're not moderator. I'm sorry you find it offensive that someone has finally questioned this mod you strongly support. Welcome to the world of debate. As for that Maxima owner, there's sucker born.....you know the rest.

Dave_B

Seeing that I'm a certifed project manager and manage 5 to 7 figure projects, I have to understand things like profit margins, raw costs, mark ups, etc. It's the one part of my job I hate. I didn't go to school to be an accountant.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

I had some free time so I decided to do some searches:

"I have the UR lightweight crank, power steering and HBP pulley on my S/C'd CLS-6 and have had no issues, in their regards to performance. My blower has 60K on it so far, 105K on the car. No particular harmonics or vibrations have been noticed."
https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-cl-2001-2003-50/ur-pulley-lightened-pulley-boosted-applications-719204/

"I installed my ur pulley and drove my car across country! Did it in 48 hours...40 hours driving! Good gas mileage, more power"
"200,000 miles w/pulley on my '00 TL, 45,000 miles w/pulley on my 03 CLS, NO PROBLEMS"
https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-cl-2001-2003-50/ur-pulley-update-490770/

There are endless threads like this.

Dave_B

Post #180

Stop wasting our time and read the entire thread please.

Majofo

This is getting out of hand and while a health debate is good.. this seems to be going nowhere.. there's no need to bash each other. This is an open community and everyone has a equal voice. I don't think Dave_B has turned anyone off of the UR Pulley nor has anyone made a new argument to turn someone on to it.. almost everyone who has installed it has done their own research & can educate themselves without bias. The chances of the UR Pulley failing is almost negligible. I don't believe UR's stance is that their pulley is more reliable than the OE pulley so I don't see the problem. It's an inherent risk. Until someone pulls the crank, rods & pistons of J or VQ series with considerable damage.. We should put this debate to rest.

NedShneebly

You morphed your rehtoric and technical acumen regarding the elastomer ring in stock pulley's (which, at first, was informative) in to a declaration that engines will fail with this shoddy, ring-free aluminum UDP. Look back and 3 new tuners have decided against this mod after your ramblings. You could have done it in a much more gentlemanly fashion. Instead, your biblical, link infused sermons chose to reduce Excelerate to a company line towing idiot.

I've seen this scenario many times before on this site: this is just the first of many e-battles you'll be involved in and I'm sure if I searched some of your other forums I'd see the same trend. Ever heard catch more flies with honey? You can't come on an ram a philosophy down a groups throat that is happy with the product and believes it to be a quality part.

Ya know, a CAI is just a big noise maker but people like the way it sounds and feels - butt dyno effect. I bet you have one...c'mon, don't lie.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

As I said earlier, threads I found with dyno numbers but no graphs because they are from 2002. I didn't post because I knew you would automatically dismiss them. You want use to believe every word you say, but you just find a way to shoot everything we say down. Twist it into your own little beliefs.

Dave_B

I agree, I'm pretty passionate about cars. Over my 15+ years of wrenching, modifying, and racing cars, I've learned that a lot of aftermarket parts are junk and/or don't work as advertized. Everyone thinks they can outwit the automakers by removing or improving on a part or system because it looks weird, restrictive, heavy, whatever. I've learned that looks can be deceiving and you really need to research and understand why something is designed the way it is before you start screwing with it. Also, over the years I bought into the hype and stellar reviews of certain aftermarket parts only to be let down when I actually put them to real performance tests. I guess I don't want people making the same mistakes I've made buying into the hype. I demand a lot of supporting data before I believe that a part works as advertized. Call me crazy.

NedShneebly

but don't you have some off's to fawk

Majofo

c'mon man.. you're going to get this thread locked.

NedShneebly

what would we be missing if it gets locked?

Majofo

I thought the point of this thread was to hear feedback from people that have it and want to learn more about the UR Pulley.. and post pics of install, etc..

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

If you wish to call those two members liars and that they skewed the results please do so since they are both respected members, one even being a moderator who has contributed more to this forum than you could in twenty years of ramblings.

Do you seriously think you are some sort of pioneer? An internet engineer like yourself pops up every month. We've gone over this hundreds of times. What I really can't understand is why a Nissan/Infiniti "expert" like yourself has decided to come on an Acura enthusiast forum to spread empty rhetoric.

Dave_B

Says the person that bases his whole argument and justification on what UR tells him. Yeah I got it. The fact that I'm a Nissan "expert" has nothing to do with this. What difference does it make. I've also owned and modified F-Bodies, Stangs, Hondas, and Subarus. I guess that means I'm an expert of those cars as well.

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

Wow, lots of animosity here. Let me preface this by saying Dave isn't trying to start any trouble here, nor trying to be the "grim reaper" but doing people a favor by warning them of the possibility, however slight that may be, that the pulley could in fact fail. He's correct in his assertation that the J/VQ engine designs are not all that different and he's far from being a TL basher, if that's what anyone thinks.


Personally, I have the stock diameter UR pulley on my car and I completely understand the potential risks associated with the mod. That's why I periodically give it a good visual inspection, as well as make sure it's torqued to spec. So far, so good. I also know that the "huge gains" are a crock, but I don't mind paying a couple hundred bucks for a couple HP. The threads of people installing one and then coming on here raving about how much harder the car pulls are good for a laugh; it's almost like a shared delusion.


Think about it. A stock 6MT TL makes 258 hp crank and let's say an average of 222 whp, which is highly efficient. That means only 36 hp is being consumed by the drivetrain, including the transmission and the front wheels and tires at what, around 45-50 lbs per wheel and tire? Does anyone honestly think shaving 5lbs off the crank pulley is going to free up a serious chunk of that 36 hp? In theory, you could just burn 2.5 lbs of tread off each front tire (yes, tires lose weight as they wear) and net the same result. The only difference in lightening the pulley is quicker revving in neutral.


As far as the Mag Moss Act, he is 100% correct in that any car manuafacturer's legal team would absolutely bury a plaintiff trying to reap restitution if said plaintiff's engine suffered ANY premature lower end failure and had an aftermarket pulley installed. People throw around the MMA like's it's some wonderful security blanket, but whatever Acura corporate deems "abnormal" you're screwed for the time being. And if you've thrown a bearing with the pulley installed, don't waste your money on an attorney.

Acura Jeff

Just to put things in perspective, the Big 3 typically will not allow a total markup in excess of 15.3% from their suppliers. This total markup includes profit, selling, general & admin expenses, and end item scrap.

Knowing that, if one of our vendors has a 20% markup, he is doing exceeding well... some just may not realize that since the information I am sharing with my fellow Acura friends is not readily known.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure who you're referring to when you talk about 15.3% in markup but I can tell you there is a huge markup at the dealership on OE parts. I know for a fact that Honda/Acura dealerships have at least 45-50% in profit margin in parts. I've seen an invoice before and there's a reason that places like www.acuraoemparts.com sells at 25% off of list. So not sure where 15% is coming from but if you want to say that the Big 3 only make 15% on their parts I'd be highly surprised; that being said if you're selling thousands of parts a day at a 15% margin then it's worth it b/c that's volume. But when you have to take time to make one sale on one part to one person and maybe that person doesn't even buy it but you took the time to speak with them a 15% margin is less than desirable, thus the reason a lot of shops are going out of business. You guys may have some idea on the corporate level what goes on but you're looking at billions of dollars in parts; at a local retail shop level 15% is acceptable (b/c unfortunately we're fortunate to get 15%) but it's NOT a great profit margin.

Anyways, this entire past few days of ramblings are non sequitur and this thread has quickly become not what it was proposed to be.

Inaccurate

Are you talking about our overweight Acura TL ?

Putting the TL on a diet (click here)

Acura Jeff

Many thanks to Dave B and anx1300c for sharing their valuable comments with us Acura enthusiasts. I think we should appreciate the opportunity to have folks of this caliber on Acurazine. It appears Dave is a degreed engineer and a certified project manager working within the auto industry.

I realize some may resent the fact Dave B may be making us realize some things that we really had hoped were untrue. I find it difficult to find a reason why they would lead us astray. No offense against any vendor but they are naturally motivated to sell their products or they go out of business.

Thanks again for all the great discussion.

Acura Jeff

Great question. OEM suppliers (companies that make parts for the Big 3 and ship them to the respective assembly plants) must identify each part's cost in a detailed RFQ (Request for Quote). Within the RFQ the supplier must itemize (as discussed previoulsly):

Raw material and purchased component costs
Labor
Burden
SG&A, profit, scrap and engineering costs.

Each OEM sets a limit on total markup allowed. This amount is determined by the Big 3's cost estimating organization and passed onto the purchasing group. Hence the OEM buyers prevent (or at least attempt to) greater than about 15% total markup. Granted, some suppliers like Bosch refuse to disclose detailed cost break downs and sometimes Ford tells them to pack sand... not always.

Dealerships typically fall into the service category instead of production and are normally handled by the aftermarket group. What dealers charge is up to them. Dealers are not Ford, Chrysler or GM employees. The point being is the supplying manufactures have limited profit margins, not auto dealers.

So, if:
1.) We know the OEM pulley sells retail for around $50 (per Acurazine member on this thread), we can reasonably and conservatively assume the OEM most likely pays less than $20 to the supplier to manufacture the OEM pulley.
2.) We know the lightweight pulley costs less to manufacture based on the fact it weighs about 5 lbs less (less raw materials) than the OEM pulley and requires less complexity to manufacture due to its simple design.
Therefore, the lightweight pulley should cost less than $15 to manufacture.

If our great vendor is telling us he only makes about $35 profit on a $200 pulley that costs $15 to make, that must mean his manufacturer is making a profit of about $150 on a $200 item. That is better than the diamond industry. But we are not in that industry guys.

I am not supporting that greed knowing many others are struggling to keep afloat in the auto industry. If I missed something please let me know. Thanks.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

This is a very informative thread, awesome discussions minus the squabbling, thanks guys I think someone mentioned earlier in here (couldn't find the post) that the 4g pulley is lighter than the 3g, would it be possible to put the 4g pulley on the 3g? and if so, worthwhile?

Dave_B

You have to be really careful because a lot of crank pulleys having timing marks/rings on them that the crank sensor uses to confirm engine timing. If the marks are different, your engine wouldn't be too happy. You'd also have to confirm crank fitment and crank oil seal clearance. Basically, I wouldn't recommend it. That 2 to 3 lbs weight different difference isn't going to make a difference in terms of performance.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

That's what I figured. I think someone said that the 4g has the same motor as the 3g type-s. Would that make a difference at all?

Sonnick

A difference of 4whp/wtq across the powerband is actually pretty legit. You have to remember, those aren't peak gains, but gains you see throughout the RPM band. I'm sure it wouldn't make a huge difference in terms of 1/4 mile, but it would definitely improve both ET and trap speed.

Dave_B

Could very well be the same motor, but I'd make damn sure that if the crank pulley is part of the timing system, that it's timing marks are correct.

Dave_B

In a 3,600lb car, it's not going to make a difference. The biggest problem I have with that dyno though is that we don't know which runs they're using. Like I said earlier, the same car, on the same dyno, on the same day, sees different numbers between runs. I don't know about the TL, but I know that G35s/350Zs tend to gain about 3whp between successive runs. It's not uncommon for a G35 to dyno 10whp more after three passes than where it was on the first run and nothing was done to the car. My VQ30 Maxima usually was 5whp+/- between runs, overall. My Z28 was around the same too.

Acura Jeff

Thanks for sharing your experience. You have some good points that I think we all need to take into consideration before considering the purchase of an aftermarket lightweight pulley.

My take away from this thread is quite significant. It appears many of the claims (whether they are right or wrong) about the lightweight pulley is unsubstantiated. We need to ask ourselves a lot of questions:

1. How does the manufacturer substantiate their HP gains?
2. Are there before and after dyno charts with successive pulls?
3. How many dyno pulls where done before and after?
4. What variables where held constant for the dyno pull and which ones where not.
5. Who would want to purchase something that is proven out by the target audience (us test rats)? I think the burden of proof lies on the manufacturer to substantiate all claims through generally accepted industry standards, not consumers.

Quite frankly, it appears the pulley is approaching a $200 gimmick that many of us really hope for gains but just get quicker reving engines and a little more wear and tear on the engine. This is not what I would like to believe, but until the gains can be scientifically proven, forget about making the pulley guys rich.

Just like investing (think about Bernie Madoff), if it appears to be too good, it usually is. Of course, saying one has been in business for "X" amount of time means absolutely nothing... we need to dig deeper for scientific proof from the manufacturer... they are the ones making the claims and should be responsible to substantiate them.

georgegiorgio

+1

I agree...

No scientific proof, no need for us to damp $200 in a gimmick, useless item...

Dave_B

I also find it terribly funny that I get knocked for comparing the VQ series to the J series in terms of the pulley designs and motor layouts, the only dynos provided "proving" this part works are for the TSX. Seems a bit hypocritical.

warren4066

I have a stock size diameter ur crank pulley...planning on installing the pulley sometime next weekend and i know i don't have to replace the belts but i was wondering why not since i'm under the car anyway. so what kind of belt is recomended and where can i get the belt or belts?

Acura Jeff

You may want to consider returning the pulley and getting your money back before you loose that opportunity... just a thought. Many of the opposing arguements in this thread are coming from degreed engineers with significant automotive industry experience, not salesmen.

If people continue to purchase items with no substantial proof, perhaps I should start selling items that sound like they offer performance gains. I could make a ton in profit and not have to do any product validation, testing etc... just outsource the manufacturing and sell the product to eager enthusiasts that are willing to field test the product free for me.

You may want to inquire into the manufactures background, education, experience etc. Being an entrepreneur and/or salesmen is one thing, but product design and validation are another.

Psychologically I guess we are always looking for something better and if it seems really good we ignore our common sense. We all do it. Think of all those duped by Bernie Madoff.

NedShneebly

Gates brand belts have been installed by more than a few and are recommended by UR [que Dave_B shootdown of this product] - check page 1 of this thread.

I remember some talk of Napa having the best price. It's affordable.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

Probably not worth the effort. Thanks for the great info!

Jester61

After reading everything posted all i can do is shake my head at all your mis-information. The factory crank pulley on todays cars have nothing to do with torsional damping. The rubber in a factory pulley is to reduce any audible engine noise from the accessories. The elastomer is a factory pulley is not only inadequate but cant even function as a torsional damper. For a dampener to help with torsional vibrations/twisting of the crank not it must have the proper weight to function properly and MUST be interference fitted to the crank snout. (pressed on). the factory pulley is bolted on and the rubber is sandwiched. It couldn't dampen because the part has so much play it couldn't do it. So much force is put on a true damper that on domestic motors the use them and make big power have problems from keeping the balancer from moving that they have to resort to additional methods of securing it to keep this from happening.
(you say that the factory pulleys are a proper damper but yet I can show you proof of early 90's cars that don't even have a rubber ring in them. what do you say to that? Also, since I mentioned that weight is in important factor in a proper balancer why is it the factory pulleys are getting lighter and using less damper material and making a lot more horsepower?)

BTW this is a proper balancer mostly used externally balanced motors.


If you need one on toady's motors its usually due to high horsepower applications and high revving cars that go way beyond the factory design and limits.

Crank snaps? I would love to see this. Sure this was happening on on old domestic motors that weren't built like today and this was happening on high horsepowers cars and using balancers help absorb the vibrations. Only 3 failures? really wow. There are thousands of these pulleys sold and used on VQ, VG motors and only 3 failures? Sounds like improper installation. You would be surprised at how many people screw up installs on anything. if the part is not installed or torqued properly it will loosen and destroy the pulley. what about Stillen and all the other reputable company selling these products are the selling BS?

Simple answer don't mod your car then if you are worried about reliability/longevity

Sigh; Fluid dampers were designed for diesel motors and due to the their low revving. Putting a fluid filled damper on a high revving performance car and you asking for trouble. The problem with fluid is that it freezes in higher rpm applications and causes a hammering effect on your crank and in turn doing more damage then good. As a matter of fact I have seen this design by a company that did this for Mercedes vehicles and it ripped the crank snout right of the pulley and sending the pulley into the motor damaging it. so please do ever used fluid filled dampers for an example.

Their a plenty of dyno charts out there for proof. the fact is removing weight frees up power. some cars more then other. i know on the 300zx TT motors stock at one point in the RPM band it made over 20whp and over 30whp with mods. even the 2001 accord v6's the pulley made over 22 whp.

Yup. guess you are not as smart as you think because this is true.

so the pulley got damaged during the install. hmmm. Aluminum can't handle torque of the crank bolt? thats laughable. where do you come up with these things. NO. the factory pulley is made from steel because it cheaper then aluminum.

Then know what your talking about before you post because you have no idea how a real balancer works.

LOL. Sure a lot of R&D goes into a car and everything is preciously calculated so that you car runs its best in all conditions while keeping in mind drive comfort. So looking at your mod list in your sig you just destroyed everything the manufacture designed the car for according to your words. so if you car is making more power in theory the factory crank pulley is now no good because the car wasn't designed for the additional power. any engine mod changes everything, so i guess your car will fail soon. Simple CNC design. LOL. you ever work with cnc machines? there is nothing special about the factory crank pulley. its 2 pieces of metal pressed together with rubber in the middle. the part sis so poorly made that they need balancing holes and fail after a period of time.

he hasn't done anything but copy and paste what he read without understating it. Its nothing but cost. manufactures are not going to spend extra money on a part that cost more. If you're worried about warranty, don't do any mods (wheels, exhaust) to your car until the warranty's up.

Factory air boxes are designed with best overall comprise. To make power & torque in the RPM band where needed the most while keeping the intake system quite. Same Idea as the exhaust mods on your car but you had no problem changing those huh. i bet you even lost torque somewhere in the power band.

First off whats the price of carbon steel. How do you know this is what the manufactures use? proof? I'm willing to say that whatever steel they use is not more expensive then aluminum and that you are 100% wrong. LoL again, I now know for sure you never worked in a machine shop going by what you just wrote.

Todays domestic motors are just like everything else. what i said at the top of post still applies.

Wait till the motor goes out of production and the are no longer making this part I assure you you will pay $150.00 + when this happens. Its so cheap right now because of volume. Figure they make 250,000 a year plus by law they have to keep double that on the shelf while the motor is in production. so like i said volume. small business could never touch those prices.

Sorry but this post is all sorts of fail.

Interesting most pulleys I see don't have timing rings. usually some mazdas and the 95-01 maximas. im sure there are others but less then more. crank oil seal clearance would not be and issue if your buying a name brand quality product that has proven itself for many year now.

people do your own research. dont let internet mechanics with no experience in the field make decisions for you. These company's aren't in business for 10+ years because they make a BS product with invalid claims. the proof is out there. whether its pulleys, intakes etc..

Jester.

Jester61

btw. this is from UR's site and i think it worth reading as it might give a better understanding for people with questions.

ALS2000

Hi Jester61, I have been following this thread almost daily as I am one of those ppl deciding on the UR pulley and whether or not to go for it. Just out of fairness sake, I noticed you just joined Acurazine today? Have only 2 posts and both back to back in this thread. Can you let all the members know if you were solicited or invited by someone from the "for UR pulley group" to come on here? What is your background to provide info? Do you drive a 3G TL? Ppl have flamed Dave_B and asked him to leave the Acurazine forums as he does not drive an Acura. So I think the last question is important. Thanks for humouring me if you decide to answer the questions.

Acura Jeff

I think a lot of readers will have this same question. The real question is how can we really get an honest answer? Remember, a lot is at stake for those who are pushing the light weight pulley. At what cost will they go to, to protect their image?

Acura Jeff

Please be careful when commenting without any factual support about cost or attempting to dismiss others claims ... especially if you have no purchasing or design experience with an OEM.

Keep in mind, the people who design and purchase parts for a living with years of experience are commenting within this thread. These are degreed folks (some with advanced degrees and have annual spends of more than $100 million a year). I think we are lucky to have this talent available to us enthusiasts.

Acura Jeff

For the record, this was not copied and pasted.

The two points are from my twenty years experience leading cross-functional teams to launch forward model programs within the auto industry. I would encourage you to debate points that you have a concern with instead of just claiming it was copied. I would be happy to educate you.

NedShneebly

I think it's high time somebody with plenty of time at work make a phone call to corporate or contact a rep through the Acura America homepage and stress the importance of a reputable factory tech/engineer comment.

I'm not discrediting Dave_B's comments, I just don't like his attitude.

I have one, installed it myself and at the time it was the #1 mod that experienced tuners on this site wished they had done first. Guys that put this on a bone stock car with no other mods were greeted to definite response from the engine and not just a placebo effect.

My advice is to get it if you're on the fence. Just be sure to read ALL the DIY threads or get installed by a reputable mechanic (many dealerships have done the install, too).

Jester, prepare for death by hyperlink...