Dave_B

Aluminum is more expensive? You better check those metal prices. The OEM pulley is a high carbon steel which is far more expensive than the aluminum. Then there's all the cost to sandwich two pulleys together with the rubber ring plus all the R&D that has to go into desigining the pulley so that it adequately dampens the crank. UR takes a few measurements, plugs it into their CNC computer and 5 minutes later, a pulley is made. You really think that's a more expensive process There are guys making crank pulleys for Titan v8s and they're doing it in their off time. A one guy operation and 8 hours of measuring resulted in the crank pulley. That would be an R&D wet dream for Honda.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

I think you are referring to the crankshaft. Do you have evidence the pulley is designed of a composite? I paid about $50 for the pulley... from the dealer. I can't see the dealer letting me walk away with such a steal.

Dave_B

G35Driver of a UR UDP failure on the 350Z. Unfortunately the pictures are no longer up, but you'll get the idea of what happened. See post #20.

http://g35driver.com/forums/engine-d...ck-please.html

There is also a lot of similiar debate regarding the purpose of the crank damper and the advantage of aftermarket "Fluidampers".

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

How can you compare the Nissan motors to the Honda motors?

Honda is/has been using internally balanced shafts to replace the role of the 'harmonic dampener' found in Nissans, Fords, and Chevys. All examples you cited, I might add. The rubber that Honda uses on the crank pulley is used to cancel out vibration from the accessories. There is NO external balancing happening.

Your examples do not apply here! You are providing wrong information to ACURA/HONDA owners.

Dave_B

Reading comprehesion owns you badly. All of this has been addressed in this thread already. There is nothing fancy about the J-series or VQ series. They operate the same and have very similiar designs.

Please post your reference to these supposed "balanced shafts" found in your Honda motor. I have a feeling you don't have clue about what you're talking about.

Dave_B

As for this elastomer ring supposedly quelling accessory noise, why doesn't UR deem it necessary to use the same design on their pulleys. Are you guys so gullible or forgetful that your accessories should have gotten louder with the install of the UR pulley? Please find me ONE case on this site or another site where someone installed a lightend undampened pulley and said "damn, now I've got accessory whine". By UR's explanation, their pulley should make your accessories louder. Please don't say the noise isn't there because the UR pulley is perfectly balanced. The OEM pulley is perfectly balanced as well. When I had my UR UDP, I didn't notice any change in accessory noise.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

I've had J series motors opened up and see them on benches and spoken with builders who put these motors together for a living with one purpose, to create power. I guess their all wrong.

I thought maybe by repeating the information, you would get it, but you don't. Just keep spitting our your Nissan experience. I sure as hell wouldn't go over there and say I broke apart Honda motors and spoke to builders, so I'm sure your motor will react the same way.

Life experience owns you badly.

In reference to your last post... after install the under drive kit on my CL-S, I did receive alternator/power steering whine. Nothing serious, but definitely could notice it.

Bearcat94

It has. The crank pulley on the 4G TL is (IIRC) about 2 lbs lighter than on the 3G TL.

Majofo

interesting..

Dave_B

Since you've seen these motors opened up, where are these "shafts".

Buda

iTrader: (1)

Actually I did notice increased noise after the installation and I had the dealership install mine. I just never complained about it as it was a non-issue for me.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

Not really 'shafts', misnomer on my part. Here is a picture to better illustrate how the shaft is internally balanced.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

Keep in mind the above picture is not exactly what a J series crankshaft looks like, but it is an illustration of counterweights in an shaft. The Honda motors are what's called zero balanced. You do not balance a Honda motor with the pulley (dampener) or fly wheel. Every part is 0 balanced... the pistons, rods, flywheel, crankshaft. You can detach the flywheel without changing balance at all. The Honda crankshaft uses counterweights and bobweight, this is not implemented in motors that require external balancing usually because there is a lack of room for such components or the stroke is too large.

Your next argument is the elastomer. People often call a crankshaft pulley a harmonic damper or dampener. It is an absorber. Vibrations are a frequency. The weights on the crankshaft are adjusted to these specific frequencies for this motor to eliminate as much torsional vibrations as possible. A very small amount of resonance reaches the absorber or point of load, and also the absorber has a very small surface area. The point where these absorbers come into play are on high power motors and motors reaching very high RPMs, think 10,000rpms or more.

Audioholics

geeze 3G Acura TL's can't afford to get noisier (wind noise and rattles). I am definately NOT doing this mod.

Majofo

Buda

iTrader: (1)

The increased noise I experienced is not loud enough to be heard from inside the car.

Dave_B

You're missing the entire point here regarding my argument. Most every late model engine is balanced internally. Technology has brought us to that point and every maker uses it. It increases longevity, power, driveability, etc. You can free-wheel spin these balanced motors and everything will be fine. The point of the damper is to dampen those torsional vibrations that occur when you apply load to the crank (ie explosions). That twisting force or torque plus revolution is what causes the harmful torsional vibrations. The fact that the rotating assembly is internally balanced is a moot point here and that's not what I'm talking about. These are two entirely different things and clearly this is where UR and many people like yourself have gotten confused.

I'll end it on this note and we can let the masses decide because it is their car.

georgegiorgio

+1

I concurred.... with the noise here and there, rattle noises, I don't need more noise...

Which occurs me, what would it be without ANC....

Also, I was reading the 4G TL add, stating that's so quiet and blah blah blah...

even though I had a 4G TL SH-AWD loaner for over 10 days, sure, less noise, and no rattle, but that's because it was brand new with only 3000 miles logged....

I doubt about Honda/Acura's claim on Quality...

My sister Camry XLE V6 is way way way more QUIET than My TL-S, actually haven't heard any rattle while riding her Camry XLE V6...

And it cost 6K less...

DARN Honda/Acura...

P.S. I still love my TL-S...

Audioholics

Agreed fit and finish for some reason on the TLS is subpar when I compare it to my 05 TL and cars like Toyota and Hyundai but I love how it drives, love the ergonomics and features. I just can't believe they can't eliminate wind noise, interior rattles, and properly line up the trunk and hood so the gap on both sides are even.

BTW I bought my TLS with only 10k miles so it was fairly new.

Maybe in a couple of years someone will come out with a direct replacement to the stock pulley that is damped and a few pounds lighter but for now I wont use Unorthodox especially since I plan on logging over 100k miles on my car before I get rid of it.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

The internal counterweights are designed to counter act the frequency of those torsional vibrations. It cannot solely be that little piece of rubber with extremely little surface area on the crank pulley that ABSORBS all of those vibrations. Much of it is passed through the counterweights inside.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

I had to chime in back on this thread just once more.

First off the factory crank pulleys are made from castings or powdered metal, not high carbon steel. Do you know what the cost of high carbon steel is per lb. I bet you it’s not what 6061 is, $2.00 per lb. earlier this year.

Second off a damper must be interference fit to the engine to work as a damper to protect the engine, i.e. why all the domestic V8 engine pulleys press onto the crank.

And in reference to your comments about pulley R&D and manufacturing time here is the manufacturing process of UR (this is a direct quote from them):

Development time takes about 30-45 days. 6-12 hours of measurements from the pulley to the timing cover to belt angles when we underdrive. Then the drawing takes 6-8 hours, depend if the part needs a stainless steel oil sleeve, maybe we need a new diameter sleeve. Then the data is fed into our CAD software which spits out a base program which needs to be tweaked 4-6 hours, just on the lathe. Then we do a dry run with no material to prove out the general movement of the program. Then we tweak the mill program for 3-6 hours then do a dry run. After this is done we a few pieces and tweak the programs some more. The test car is run on the dyno for a before baseline. The parts are checked for tolerances and if they are correct we try a test fit then we find out what belt works (1-2 hours) for underdrive. We check accessory output (voltage, steering feel) to make sure everything is within factory spec for underdrive versions. After the test fitment if everything is the way we want it the owner of the car goes on his way for 3-4 weeks and is told to give us details on everything they notice or don’t notice compared to the stock pulley. Once the owner comes back we run the car on the dyno go over the data and we remove the part to check if there is any indications of problems or unexpected wear. We are 6 weeks in at this point!

I also asked him about the Nissan motor you spoke about:

The Nissan he mentions had a pulley come off because the bolt was not torqued with a torque wrench, a gun was used and as such the bolt came loose and the pulley came off from there. This has happened to two unfortunate individuals that used less than capable mechanics.

Also in reference to the elastomer or rubber ring, UR said:

We don’t need to use a rubber ring because the 5 decibels that the factory wants to quiet are not important to performance enthusiasts who have already created more noise with their cold air intakes, headers and exhausts. We’ll make them with the ring for $300 for a crank pulley but it makes no sense to over complicate.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

This may be a really stupid question, but I'm gonna ask anyway. Does this argument pertain only to the udp or both the udp and oem size?

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

Not a stupid question.

It pertains to both.

Audioholics

If you can make the OEM sized pulley with the ring, I may do this mod. This is only the case if you can ensure there wont be any increase in engine/accessory noises. I'd like to gain the performance without sacrificing noise floor especially since I am a heavy Bluetooth user for business calls in the car.

As a side note, does anyone know if a 4G TL pulley can be used on a 3G TLS car? Since the 4G pulley is lighter by 30% as some claim, that may be a viable alternative.

Buda

iTrader: (1)

I don't think you'll notice the noise from the pulley in the car. I run with a GReddy exhaust and an AEM CAI (V2 is on the way!) and the drone from the exhaust is very noticeable. I make Bluetooth calls using the HFL and have never had a problem with the excess noise (even on conf calls). The HFL does a really good job of filtering out background noise and only picks up sound when you are talking.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

The increase in noise is negligible. You would never notice it unless you opened up the hood and listened to the engine bay.

Acura Jeff

Keep in mind we always request a detailed cost breakdown from our suppliers when considering various engineering solutions. This process identifies not just material cost differences but accounts for the weight deltas as well when considering quotes or solutions. Elements of a cost breakdown:

1.) Raw Material cost per pound AND part weight to calculate the supplier's material cost.
2.) Labor for each operation times the cost of labor for that geographic area.
3.) Burden rate for the operation/process.
4.) End item Scrap rate
5.) Selling, general and administration expenses
6.) Profit
7.) Engineering, design and development cost if they are design responsible.

It is not just the material cost difference but also the delta on the weight difference (5 lbs? in the UR case) which is the biggest contributor to potential savings with a light weight alum pulley. So why don't OEMs switch to UR pulleys and save a bundle? There is obviously a big reason or believe me the purchasing folks would force engineers to make the switch to a lighter material for cost reductions and weight reductions (CAFE).

Based on those facts, I cannot justify the purchase of the lightweight alum pulley for my TL....regardless what any salesman states.

Remember the OEMs offer you a 4? year warranty. What do the aftermarket vendors offer along the lines of warranty? Who backs the warranty, what are the exclusions and length of the warranty? Just a few other things to think about before your purchase. Remember the E-shit procats? The suppliers made their money and now some consumers are out $1000. Protect your assets.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

The cost of the OE pulley is significantly less than the UR pulley. I had a guy with a 09 TL send me a pulley he bought brand new from Acura for $50. Most of the TL owners are not people like you and I who enjoy modding their vehicles so there's no reason to force engineers to buy or create lightweight pulleys. On the opposite end of that spectrum go ahead and weigh a new TL pulley. It's two pounds lighter than the 3rd gen TL pulley; now why did Acura do that?

The warranty on the UR pulley is 1 year. OEM's offer 4 years because they have to and they also create the entire vehicle. There's no reason for UR to warranty your car because of a pulley.

I'm not saying that the pulley is for everyone b/c it's not. It's a modification to your vehicle just like any other mod and any time you modify your car there is an inherent risk. When you install an intake you remove baffles, chambers, brackets, etc and with a cold air you run the risk of hydrolock if you sumberge the filter in water (it would take 2-3 ft of water to do so). When you install a high flow cat you are not filtering as much of the exhaust as you were before. When you install an exhaust you eliminate mid mufflers and get more sound. When you install a K&N replacement air filter you risk some of the oil on the filter getting into the MAF sensor (on some newer Honda's). When you change your tires to a more aggressive tire you risk more noise, more harshness, possible vibration. When you do a larger rear sway bar you are causing the rear end to swing out more and you put more stress on the end links. The list can go on and on. Any mod you do will cause a dealer to take a second look at your car and try to find an excuse to deny you a warranty; that's what the stealerships do. But I've found many dealers that are mod friendly.

In the end if someone wants everything just like stock they should keep their stock parts.

Dave_B

Where in the world do you get this info Have you ever worked on a domestic V8. Late model crank pulleys aren't pressed on. The LS Series and Ford Mod motor V8 crank dampers are keyed just like the J-series and slide off without the need of a puller. Same as my VQ30's crank pulley.

Interestingly, when I removed my UR pulley from VQ30, it required a puller to get it off. Yeah, that was scary. Clearly the pulley was showing wear because it had actually rotated itself slightly up against the key. When it was new, it slide right on.

NedShneebly

Dude, Dave, can you just say "I warned you", or, "Told ya so", and go back to the Nissan forums? Your pissin' one of our prime vendors off and we need him in a good mood to get good deals on wares.

Question: Are we to believe that all, or, even the majority of Nissan tuners shun this mod? If as many Q motors were lost to this part as you say, I'm sure it would be next to impossible for a company to market an aftermarket pulley for Nissans. I mean, you've turned off a handful of Acuraziners already with a bunch of links, stories of blown Nissan motors and a almost nagging revisit to American V8's - none of which hold a match to Honda longevity and build quality (Nissan ranked 6th in the latest Consumer Reports overall and we won't even talk about GM).

Sorry, for every link you toss up as fact, there's at least one site countering it. That's why you can't just write a paper or thesis and quote random, un-acredited websites as sources of valid info. We got guys right around the corner in the 2G forum with a couple hundred K on the clock running this part. You've got blown Nissan motors and we've not one on this very large fan site to speak of. I admire your dedication but I have to know something first:

Do you believe in global warming? Buy software to counter the Y2K crash? OJ might have been innocent?

Probably my last post. Oh, and I haven't opened any of your links so don
t waste your time just to cyber-prove me wrong.

O'Doyle Rules!

Acura Jeff

I think it is fair to say the cost of the OEM pulley to the OEM includes about a 7% profit at best for the Tier 1 supplier. Cost at the dealership is another story. In other words, the OEM buys the pulley for a lot less than the $50 the dearler charges as everyone most likely knows.

The OEMs purchase price is based on materials and weight along with the components identified in my other reply. I highly doubt that is the case for the aftermarket pulleys sold for mods. Of course, their is a huge volume differerence that accounts for some of the cost and the fact Purchasing limits a suppliers profit amount if they want to do business. Aftermarket products profitability is always a different story... the consumer has little leverage (other than maybe group buys but that is such a small discount compared to the manufactured cost) and pays near retail resulting in huge profits for the supply chain. With that being said, ask your white collar buddies that work at the OEM or Tier 1 suppliers how their aftermarket divisions are doing. You will most likely find out from a financial standpoint they are still making a profit unlike just about every other division in the OEM or Tier 1.

My guess is if an OEM purchased the lightweight alum pulley that we all are considering for our enjoyment, they would be able to purchase it at a lesser cost than the current purchase price (confidential of course) of the OEM pulley. The alum lightweight pulley maybe uses two to three times less raw materials than the OEM pulley resulting in a signifcant savings, assuming the other cost elements are held constant. If you know the weights and multiplied them by the raw material current prices you could see for yourself. But we would also have to assume the OEM is paying additional for the OEM pulley's manufacturing process due to its increased complexity when compared to the lesser manufacturing complexity for the mod we are considering. So, I think it is pretty safe to say the OEM's would yield a cost savings if they switched to the lightweight alum pulley.

Oh no. You guys are now probably thinking why the hell are we paying anything more than the $50 the dealer charges for the OEM pulley that costs more to make. Someone is making a huge profit. If you are thinking this, your great mind has followed the logic. Smart guy. Now you know what kind of markups are involved. This type of education allows us to hold the supply base to reasonable profitability.

If by chance any of you are thinking about inital tooling costs, programming etc. I am sure those costs for our mods where amortized in the piece price over a couple of years. Knowing the lightweight pulley has been out for many years I think it is safe to say all those costs where paid by our predecessors purchases of their product. Hence, I am not letting that enter the equation.

Please understand I am not trying to undermine our great vendors on this sight or their products, just trying to share the facts from within the auto industry.

Thanks again for all the great discussion.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

If you guys want to throw semantics around...

If this modification is so unsafe and causes so much damage... how is it that these places are still in business? One would think if the claims are true of damage and blown motors due directly to this particular part, people would stop buying them.

NedShneebly

werd. kind of along the lines of what I'm saying about the supposed epidemic of the Nissan clubs motors. I'm pretty sure the lightweight pulley market would have gone deep six a looooong time ago if that were the case.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Don't worry I didn't take offense to any of your comments; your comments have been reasonable in nature. However I have to dispel one of your theories. There are rarely huge profits in the aftermarket industry, at least not from what I have seen and I have been in the business 8 years. When I sell a part I'm extremely fortunate if I make 20%; most parts are much less. Some springs and intakes that we sell in the $250 range only have a $20 profit margin after the CC fees. That's a pretty poor margin if you ask me. Some smaller parts you can make more and some larger parts even less. Sometimes a supercharger kit that sells for $4k only nets the dealer $200.

Acura Jeff

Point well taken. Please understand you are one component of the supply chain within aftermarket sales. Just for clarification, are you suggesting you make only a 20% profit on the sale of the UR pulleys to all of us performance enthusiasts?

Dave_B

Kudos for coming into a debate and not listening/reading to what the other side is presenting and apparently going through life with blinders on and believing what you're told from the guy selling/making the part. How can you even sit there and discredit what I'm saying when you won't even take a look at the links I posted describing crank dampers, the mathmatical formulas/priniciples, and such. This isn't theory, this is factual information which is far more than the UR propoganda that Excelerate is posting and relying so heavily on.

By your rationale, you're going to believe Excelerate simply because he's a respected vendor on this site? Ouch. He might be a great guy and has exceptional customer service, but it's pretty clear, at least to me, that he doesn't quite understand the intended purpose of these parts nor has any other available info other than what's available on the UR website.

This isn't a knock on your cars, but the TLs have very little aftermarket support compared to my car. Yes, lightened pulleys are shunned and are thought of as joke by the majority of G/Z/Altima/Maxima owners and by some of our better informed parts makers which do a crazy amount of R&D and understand the principles and purpose of the crank pulley. 5 years ago, the G and Z crowd was all over these pulleys until people started dynoing them and seeing 1-2hp gains, if that. Then a few people (3, yes not many) had engine problems due to failed lightened pulleys.

Like I've said before (since you fail to read all the posts in this thread), the VQ series is an extremely stout motor with a forged crank, 4 bolt mains, and lower block girdle. The J series is of the same design though it may not have that lower girdle. I've also said that the UDP failures have been very few and there are many people that didn't have any problems including myself with numerous 1/4 passes, lots of 7200rpm blasts (600rpms higher than stock), and over 1 1/2 years of use. However, I've said numerous times, the gains simply aren't there and Excelerate has been quiet about posting any dynos showing the gains. I've put this part to the real test and other G/Z owners have as well. J-series or VQ-series, the end result is the same. Quicker revving motor in nuetral, easier rev matching, no real gains on the dyno or in the 1/4 mile. And don't give me that argument that what applies to the VQ doesn't apply to the J-series because that's BS. You're removing 5 to 6lbs of rotating mass from the pulley. That's it. The same principles apply here and the engines are very similiar (60 degree V6s, 3.2-3.5 liters, 10.5-11.0 compressions, 24 valves, multi-cams, variable cam technology, same firing orders). Just because yours is stamped Honda and mine Nissan doesn't means there's some significant difference in the way the motor works. That argument is both ignorant and annoying.

Dave_B

20% profit is a damn good, IMO. It's actually way higher than I thought it would be. I figured 10% maybe, and that would be really good from a business standpoint.

Jeff, I get this feeling you work for the auto industry. I'm an environmental engineer and do environmental work for the Big 3 plus I do work at United Technologies Corp. facilities throughout the Midwest. What you describe in the R&D process is spot on after talking to the guys at UTC and Ford/GM. Most people fail to understand that the automakers actually make very few parts. They design the cars and assemble them.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ht=pulley+dyno

Engine RPM
Baseline..........Final.........Gain
HP 180.73.......191.68.....10.95
TQ 150.77.......163.95.....13.18
Engine RPM Dyno:


Engine Speed:
Baseline..........Final.........Gain
HP 180.73......194.14......13.41
TQ 150.77......163.95......13.18
Engine Speed Dyno:

Also here's another from a TSX who got tons of low end torque from the pulleys:

https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...9&postcount=43

Now that your doomsday theories have been disproved please leave the Acura forums. Oh and just FYI we just installed a UR Ultra Sc pulley on a 3.5L Maxima and the guy loved it.

I think this sums up your posts altogether.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Making $35 on each pulley isn't a great margin if you ask me even if that was the amount of profit we were making. I'm required to purchase tens of thousands of dollars a year, tying up my capital; I'm required to pay rent, utilities, employee salary stock the shelves and ship the parts, advertising fees to advertise here on AZ which is not cheap, time spent educating the customer and debating with ppl like Dave B. So even if it were 20% I don't think that's that great.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

Sorry this is off topic but you clearly don't know much about running your own business. You would collapse if you knew how much most retailers mark up. I'm guessing 20% profit isn't net, but just the outright made on the part. Think about all of the other expenses involved.