Sonnick

One thing I noticed about my P2R gasket (yet to install because of it), is that it doesn't line up with my OEM gasket. The holes are a bit off.

3gstealth

iTrader: (2)

Get the outlaw engineering one. It's worth the extra coin. Its a perfect fit, they even cut it to match the imperfections along the egr!

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

^ I agree with this guy. Outlaw > P2R

i_love_cars

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alright so I'm back from the dyno. As I posted earlier on page 3, I expected to pull 282 with the stock mani/TB, and i was almost dead on as I peaked at 281.98. Go me.

As expected it ran richer with the stock mani/TB given all of my exhaust mods, so again no surprises.

I'm very pleased with the results. a gain of 7whp and nearly 5 wtq for just slapping the 3.7 im/tb on with my existing mods is pretty good.

They said it'll probably take a week to turn around the PnP job, so I am expecting to be able to get back to the dyno not this coming week but the following with the PnP'ed parts.

vill0169

iTrader: (4)

awesome stuff man. Thanks again for doing all the leg work for us on this... I forsee a sticky in the future for this thread (mods take note)

After the PNP is done I'd love to see how a set of Bisi cams behave with your setup.

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

Nice. I wonder if the 3.5 Type-S manifold flows any better than the 3.2/3.0 manifolds?

I've already got the ported runners, and I don't plan on doing anything to the 3.7 manifold, just going to send the ZDX TB to Maxbore. I think the TB porting will only add one, maybe two whp over a factory stock ZDX TB.

I should be able to pick up a solid 1 mph in the quarter by doing this, plus there's still the option of a larger intake. The ~10 lb weight reduction doesn't hurt either.

i_love_cars

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yeah it's pretty fun to tinker and see just how much we can squeeze these cars for without a tune

The bisi cams are definitely on my radar for when Spring rolls around. I may hold off on that for a while due to the potential of future tuning solutions for the J-series that I've been hearing about on pretty good authority.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

I think the type-s manifold definitely flows better stock than the 3.2/3.0.

I also think you're right about the TB - the gains on a maxbore job are going to be more noticeable on a stock 3.2 or 3.5 TB. The ZDX is so big already that I don't see much to be gained, really.

I'm expecting that with bored TB and PnP, that the car will probably flirt with 300 whp.

3gstealth

iTrader: (2)

My guess is that the 3.5 mani does flow a little better than the 3.2 since the inside is already smooth where the 3.2's aluminum mani has casting imperfections. Also, air intake temps should be a little lower since the magnesium doesn't heat soak as much. I will post my dyno results going from 3.2 to 3.7 as soon as I get my mani installed. Great results OP

cokorote

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OP can you post a picture of your engine bay with the 3.7 mani?

i_love_cars

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i will once it's back on - I have the parts in the shop right now for PnP

i_love_cars

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just got off the phone with King. Interesting conversation.

So basically they said the only value I am going to see is by boring out the TB at this point.

They also said the ZDX TB may not be able to be exactly matched to the 3.7 TL manifold - the manifold opening on the 3.7 is much larger than the ZDX outlet, they said.

So I greenlighted the bored TB of course.

They said they measured everything out on the runners and the outlet end of the intake manifold and said the stock ports are very very good. They also confirmed that you cannot easily pull the manifold apart to port the whole thing because the clamshell is glued together from the factory.

They are of the mindset that until I can get cams, and preferable port the heads, and have a tuning solution, there isn't much point to porting the runners and intake manifold outlet.

So I'm gonna see what the bored ZDX TB does and go from there.

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

got a stupid question... what did they mean by port the heads?

and going to wait on the custom intake until I purchase the TB to make sure I can test fit things.. probably be after christmas since for some reason I need to buy gifts for people, so annoying

Sonnick

Hmmm....interesting. Definitely agree with the ZDX outlet not being as large as the intake manifold. My 3.7 TB is bored to 81/72 and the manifold I measured to be 76mm. George from Maxbore said he 'tapered' it to 75mm, but I'm not quite sure that was even possible lol.

Call them back. Tell them you weren't planning on porting the 'head' side of the runners (tear drop side), only the manifold side. I think that will change their mind. If you had the head side ported, it would create turbulence because the stock runners match perfectly to the head (I assume), so unless you ported the heads as well, it wouldn't make sense. This is because the head side of your unner will be larger than the heads themselves, so the flow won't be smooth. However, if you port match the lower ports of the manifold to the OEM gasket, and the runners to the gasket as well, I guarantee you will make more power. Just some food for thought.

FYI my trap speed increased almost 2mph since the manifold/TB/runners...

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

I was clear that we weren't porting the teardrop side of the runners because yes, without porting the heads you'd have turbulence. I did call them back and did verify that we were all on the same page, by the way.

They just don't think you'll see any worthwhile gains from widening those ports right now. Without any empirical data behind me, I can't really argue with them. Just because a car made gains with ported TB/IM/Runners doesn't mean a different car will (although there are obvious identical factors in the accord vs TL).

If they are meeting me with as much resistance as they are, then I can't imagine they think it'll gain much, because they want to make money on services like any other business.

Sonnick

Fair enough. I hope I didn't come off as doubting your knowledge from my previous post. Not my intentions at all. I can see how it's possible you could've interpreted it that way and if so, my apologies as that was not my intent.

They seem pretty legit in telling you that. They could always charge you an extra $200 just to do it and have you gain 2hp. That shows a company that is for the customer, which is always nice to see. Glad you are going for this btw. Let us know how it turns out.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

nah, not taken that way at all. You've made your gains on your car with your mods are are supporting that as you should. I was just reasserting that I have had several discussions with them on this and we're very clear on what the proposed work would be.

and they could be wrong, who knows, but they've obviously spent a lot of time working on air flow over the years so if they say something won't make nearly as much gain as opposed to boring the TB as they recommend, then I am inclined to just go with it.

and yes, it shows they aren't just out to rip people off. Especially considering how slow their bench is right now given the time of year.

Sonnick

Cool man. I feel like you've already answered this, but.....track? Would be another tell tale sign of gains before/after the manifold swap.

bigg_86

iTrader: (1)

i wonder what the gains will be with this manifold when using a SC

kolgjeraj07

Hey guys I'm putting my setup together and I was just wondering ... Do you need the oem sh throttle body gasket with the thermal spacer?

t0talacuratl

iTrader: (3)

Wow; this is kind of disappointing. I already pull the trigger on this and bought the ZDX TB because of the price difference. However since you still made some gains off of it, it's still a great investment.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

yeah and the thing to remember is for 150 bucks you can have the zdx bored which will provide gains as well, and you're still ahead.

If you had bought the TL TB for 500 bucks, then paid 150 for boring, you'd be paying that much extra potentially for no gains - it would be a good experiment but there's no guarantee you'd see any significant additional power gains from the TL TB. With the ZDX and 3.7 manifold, it's pretty well opened up.

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, but IIRC, the TL-SHAWD TB (manifold side) is also smaller than the opening on the manifold, so it's really not an issue. I believe there was a thread on the k20 forums with all the measurements, and I believe the measurements between the ZDX and TL-SHAWD TB's were negligible at best, as in <1mm. After boring the ZDX TB it'll be plenty effective. As long as the mouth of the manifold is slightly larger than the TB, as it still will be, all will be fine.

Sonnick

I heard that the ZDX throttle body can be bored wider on the manifold side than the 3.7 TL throttle body. This I heard from K20a.org where I found out the ZDX fit. Of course it was after I had already purchased the TL throttle body, but I got it for a discounted price as compared to new

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

holy shit i missed this thread....

great work I_LOVE_CARS !!!

and that is some nice power your car has made....I think the port and polish will gain you more and you need a wider intake....those 2-3 things will help you get closer to 300 and if not pass it....

for putting everything together....

also, can you list your mods?

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

bored throttle body and cleaned up IM inlet are complete as of today and I installed everything this evening.

Been driving the car all night to get the ECU adjusted as I have a dyno appointment at 9 a.m. tomorrow to see what the bored TB will do.


swoosh, my mods that are significant to power gains would be HFPC's, v3 j-pipe, atlp v2 quads, and aem v2 intake. Now put all together of course with the 3.7 manifold/TB.

Atlas.46

I have a suggestion if your keeping the aem v2. Buy 3-4" coupler and cut out 1/2 to 3/4 of a inch where the 3" section meets the wall of the 4" section of the intake and then remove the 3" tube inside the 4" section. Makes it a true 4-3" intake in my opinion.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

ported and polished 3.7 manifold/TB

but those are some good numbers....I would expect you to be around 297-298whp with those mods....

and if you get PCD's instead of the HFC, hello 305-310whp

also, I agree with the above comment of getting a bigger intake....either do a 4" custom or increase the diameter of the aem v2

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

no PnP - only a bored TB. Per my earlier posts, King looked at everything and took measurements and they didn't think i'd see any significant gains from a PnP because they can't pull apart the clamshell IM without having to cut and re-weld or something else to put it back together, because the 2 pieces are adhered from the factory.

They said porting the IM inlet is worthless because the TB outlet isn't even big enough to match it, and at that point you're just porting the runner openings and IM outlet holes, which they didn't feel would give me much until I can port the entire runners and heads, cams, etc.

Basically they refused to take my money even if I wanted them to do it.

anyways, I dyno'd today with the bored TB and I think it's good for 1-2 whp given it was a ZDX Tb and 3.7 manifold - if it was a stock TB to stock manifold and they were all port-matched, I think you'd see bigger gains.

I have the dyno charts and will post later, but we had some significant pressure and temp changes that are going to make the numbers disparate.

They were slightly lower by about 2 whp but once you see how much CF was factored in against the uncorrected values, it makes more sense.

The good news is everything seems consistent, throttle response is improved with the TB, and power feels about the same as when I had the un-modified ZDX TB and 3.7 manifold on.

As of now the car is driving well, idle is stabilizing, and no CEL's from the IAT relocation into the AEM V2 intake which is all good.

Sonnick

Once the CF was factored in, what were the final numbers? I'm assuming you 'lost' 2whp since the numbers were uncorrected. But SAE vs. SAE, how much did you gain?

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

PCD's aren't going to make 8-12 whp over 200 cell race cats. If that were the case, assuming a linear power increase as you lower restriction, then a base TL would gain 28-42 whp going from the stock 900 cell cats to the HFC's. And that isn't happening. I'd be willing to bet the difference between the HFC's and PCD's is somewhere around 3-4 whp.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

in for the results....are your runners port matched to the new manifold ?

I know sonnick gained a lot from the new manifold + TB + pnp

you are correct....i was aiming at 305whp but wanted to leave some room for being optimistic....

i think with the UR crank pulley and bigger intake/injectors this dude can see an easy 310whp...

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

again they didn't port match anything because the stock J35 runners match up perfectly to the 3.7 manifold. Same diameter.

The runners were left entirely alone, as were the outlets on the bottom of the intake manifold.

I do have a UR crank pulley on the car, by the way.

I think we need to also keep in mind that Sonnick's gains were on the Accord, and while both cars have a j-series engine, I would expect there are differences in the stock IM's between both cars - lots of Honda manifolds across different J-series platforms bolt up just fine, but that doesn't mean stock to stock they have the same flow inside. But we both gained power on that even without PnP, so it's the internals of the IM and the larger opening that make power, but I would assert that my type-s is already far more opened up than his Accord was stock for stock.

As a result, my gains aren't going to be as high, necessarily. Not to mention there's no tuning going on here, and the ECU's are different. We don't have enough empirical data to suggest that the ECU's would respond the same, or if mine would be any better. I would guess the TL-S is far more tuned for performance from the factory than the Accord would be, so I wouldn't expect to see as massive of a gain on the TL-S, without additional tuning.

Sonnick

^ Truth. With that said, my OEM manifold was ported. Maybe the TaL-s manifold flows just as much if not more than my ported manifold. Not sure since, like you said, there are other variables.

3gstealth

iTrader: (2)

Is your stock manifold the same as the one on the 04-06 TL?

3gstealth

iTrader: (2)

Gerzand had them both on a flow bench and the type s one flowed 4% more than the 04-06 stock to stock! I'm not sure how significant 4% is though, but its an improvement

https://acurazine.com/forums/car-parts-sale-361/3g-acura-tl-parts-garage-cleanout-845911/

06NH6MTTL

iTrader: (1)

^ yes there 3.0 engine in that year accord look identical to a base 3g tl

J Dubya

I know porting the manifold has been mentioned, but may not be feasible due to having to open the manifold.

One thing we used to do when I was deep in the Mustang scene was Extrude Hone the intake manifold. This allows the inside of the manifold to be ported to a degree without opening up the manifold.

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

I wouldn't be surprised if the 3.0 A4/5 and 3.2 A3 flow roughly the same, so I'd expect the gains on the base TL to be a little better than the Type-S.

I will admit, I was a little skeptical when Sonnick posted his new dyno. I was a afraid that maybe the dyno calibration had changed or something, but his new trap speeds support the dyno (and then some)!

Just got shipping confirmation from Acura of Peoria (best prices and half price shipping discount) that my ZDX TB shipped. As soon as it comes in, I'm going to measure it and get it right off to maxbore, then order everything else. Should have it all swapped in about three weeks.

Sonnick

^ I don't blame you, I was a bit skeptical too. I was excited about it but recently had my doubts. I'm glad my trip to the drag strip quelled both of our doubts I was going to be upset if I spent all that coin for no gain at the track!