I hate cars

Like I said, using two staged in tank pumps keep noise to stock levels and allowed me to use a stock FPR. Making hp has never been a problem but looking factory stock was always the goal. When they came out with a stock appearing higher capacity FPR I went away from the staged pumps. I also used to run a 66mm compressor wheel in the (razor thin) stock compressor housing with a larger turbine housing only because the car has a factory shield over the exhaust side. I ran a high efficieincy longer intercooler in the engine bay behind the factory shield with the stock looking inlet and outlet necks welded on which looked factory stock. I had a 10 second setup that even a GN enthusiast would have a hard time picking out anything that's not stock. This is part of the reason for the dual pumps. The 418 did not exist back then. The 340 was the go to in tank pump.

As I've said in the past, I run a ton of headroom in the fuel system, the 20% rule is not enough for me. I run a stock cast iron crank, a stock 2 bolt block, stock rods, etc. Detonation is not an option. Dual pumps have the disadvantages you mentioned but I have enough volume with a single pump and the huge methanol shot to save the engine if one pump goes out. I've got it covered, don't worry about me. No fuel system failures other than a burst fuel line since '94.

I hate cars

Just to clarify one thing that I don't think I made clear..... I fully agree that using a single pump is better than two pumps in 90% of the cases out there. I had unique requirements due to the need to look and sound stock. The idea that one can fail and supply just enough fuel to destroy the engine is a very real one. With a single the engine dies and you usually don't have enough time to seriously damage it.

I'm currently running an external but I also have a 340 in tank supplying it at low pressure. That was my original plan but I have to rethink everything now that it's been bumped up past 2,000hp. I've never had to supply 2,500hp worth of fuel in a street car so it's new and exciting territory. The stealth thing is out the window but I still have to make sure it's capable of running for hours at a time and not just a few minutes at a time. Like I said, it's exciting because it's something I haven't done with a street car. I'm not sure if fuel temp is going to become a problem with a setup like this, especially when idling around town, I might even have to control the output by regulating voltage but it should be fun.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Thanks Matt!

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Here is a picture of my screw up. The initial marks were not that bad, it was my idiotic attempt to try and fix it. So as you can see, buying a new block was in order.

So this isn't a case of not enough thrust clearance. This bearing had to be shoved to one side and was binding side to side.



I quickly checked one bore with one piston and the bore is .0004" on the large side of the .0025" clearance, so as long as the other pistons and bore are close, I shouldn't need any machining there.

Going mic bottom end along with maybe using the plastigage. Just need to pick up a 2-3" mic.

I hate cars

That sucks. Were all of the caps kept in order and put back with the same main they came off of? Usually when that happens, we machine the side of the caps, a little off of the bottom, and then align bore. But yeah, replacing it was probably the best thing after the hammer marks.

The reason I ask about the order of the main caps is to figure out how the block is shifting. If they were kept in order, when you went to assemble them, were some worse than others or were they all equally bad? Did you try swapping the center caps at all just to see how they fit? That's not normal or recommend practice, but it would help to see what's going on with the block.

My current street engine is running .004" piston to cylinder clearance and it's a 4" bore. That's fine with forged pistons. You will have some piston slap when it's cold but it should go away within a minute or two. Nothing wrong with that at all. It's actually better if you ever plan to take it to a road course or do extended full throttle runs.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

The caps are stamped from the factory and have orientation arrows, so it's hard to mess that up. It has to be my lack of experience. All a part of my learning.

UTAH TSX

I was wondering what turbo you have, is it a 67mm inducer what A/R ? what RPM VS. boost PSI (when did it spool up and when did it hit max boost) Trying to decide what we want to get, and was it 3.2 or 3.5 ? anyone else please share your set up, we are trying to pick a turbo it will be a EFR 8374 or 9180 Thank you

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I believe it's a 62xx and the A/R is .62 or .63. I'll try and remember to check when I get home. I've been away for a while.

But this was in another thread:

MyKL

KN_TL, any news?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

The project is still alive. Ordered some new bearings to fatten up the clearances.

Things will slow down a bit because of a new job but I am shooting to have it back on the road this spring.

UTAH TSX

Oh it's been a while! good to see you're ok, what bearings are you getting ?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, lots of life stuff lately, relocating from Vermont to New York, trying to find housing that has a big garage, etc, etc.

I'm using OEM bearings, just picked up the next thinner color. Nothing radical, maybe .0002" more clearance.

UTAH TSX

Big garage in New York ouch! $$$$$$$$$$

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

NYC? Definitely. Upstate NY? Nah.

KN - hope the move goes well for you. I look forward to seeing your car back on the road. I can only imagine how you feel with it down for so long.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Thanks

It's upstate so not too bad.

Keeping house in VT commuting on the weekends at first so progress will be limited all winter. It's ok, I want to do this right so patience is my attitude.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Small update....

Mains fattened up to .0018" and all equal. Verified with plastigage to be equal but as usual, reads slim @ .0015".

Crank end play checked and is around .0078". Hopefully enough play there. That's just a hair over the middle of the spec for a new engine.

On to the rods next...that's for next weekend.

New job is 250 miles away so I spend the week in a hotel for now and drive back for the weekend. Found a house in NY with a one car garage wide enough for a lift. Should be closing in 6 weeks!

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

I know you had a whole heap of things planned while the car was down. What all will you be doing once the shortblock is assembled? Any changes to the turbo kit itself?

I feel for ya on the move. I moved 2 miles and it was a pain in itself. I couldn't imagine 250 miles...

UTAH TSX

The crank thrust bearings are fine at .0078, It's the rod bearings that like a little clearance that's the ones getting hampered by cylinder pressure.

xtcnrice

Congrats! Hope you get it! Also, good luck on the build of course

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I have everything to do a full out build and my next step was to try fabricating new hot side piping. But that's after taking tig lessons and getting a new welder. This is all after the house is purchased.

Thanks, I also ordered some thinner rod bearings. What kind of clearance are you suggesting for a moderate to high boost application?

Thanks!!

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

I'm sorry KN, I neglected to go back and answer your question concerning main clearances...

You listed the following details on your build in my thread:

Personally, I've never ran any clearances other than what Honda recommends which is .0008-.0017" on the mains and .0002-.0006" on the rods. I've went as high as 625hp on those specs and observed ZERO wear on ANY bearing surfaces afterwards running 5w20 Mobil EP synthetic. I know a few others that have gone above that power level with the same results. I'm not one for changing things that aren't broken.

The newest trend that I've seen for reducing parasitic power loss is tightening up the clearances and running thinner oil. I know this is contrary to what most have heard about big power engines but NASCAR uses this practice in their engine builds. The idea is that running a thinner oil allows for reduced oil pressure. This obviously makes the oil pump work less due to reducing pumping stresses and moving a thinner oil...not to mention crankcase windage reductions. It works well for them BUT one thing I never trusted is that these engines are built and breed for racing. They're different from the requirements of a street motor. I can assume that the using thinner oil and reduced pressure has its disadvantages but I'm unaware of what those would be.

And for what its worth, I recently checked clearances on a new factory built/assembled short block and seen that they were all equally on the "loose" side of the specs given by Honda. Not really sure if that was relevant or even intentional as they use coding to choose which bearings are used but it's something to consider being their blocks are known for being pretty stout even straight from the factory...from a bearing standpoint anyways.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Thanks Robert.

I've also read some articles on the tighter clearances and it pointed out differences between race use and street use. One I read said they used something called ZDDP which is high in phosphorus, no detergents, dispersants or corrosion inhibitors and are very catalytic converter unfriendly.

Thanks again

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Now that you mention it, I recall reading the same. Something about the lack of detergents being the issue. Chemical formulation was the bottom line on that. You are correct.

Then you have the wide clearance/high oil pressure crowd that believes this is best for performance oriented engines not knowing that this trend was simply brought on by dirt trackers due to contaminants (namely dirt) entering the oil system and then damaging bearing surfaces. The increased clearance allows the contaminants to be 'washed' out thereby making an ideal situation for those types of engines.

6spd-GERCO

ZDDP is an additive used for old engines whose camshafts have a lot of metal to metal contact for extra wear resistance. My old man used it in his Studebaker 180 cubic inch straight six flathead which if you can believe or not was in a 68 corvette.. lol I have pictures to prove it to...he was a die hard Studebaker guy to say the least

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

How much does thermal expansion and deformation @ high horsepower levels contribute to damage with small clearances?

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

You're asking a question about a highly dynamic situation that involves many factors. I guess the short answer would be it all depends on the materials and engineering of the parts themselves. Their distinct thermal properties and overall strength based on stress in the engine itself...wether direct or indirectly (drivetrain induced) cause. Thing about limitations is you never know them until you encounter them.

There's a reason Honda designs their engines to be ran using certain clearances. I'm sure they have invested lots of R&D into the specs used in production but these are controlled (often recreated from known factors the engine will be subjected to) conditions/environments. Though I'm assuming here, I think its safe to say Honda doesn't test their engines in extreme situations that a typical high performance engine would ensure in its lifetime. If they did, it's more along the lines of a torture test that involves prolonged extremities such as heat and endurance tests.

IMO, those who are building a performance oriented engine should be more concerned with piston ring durability as well as the valve train itself. It's generally one of these two that will be the first to go assuming that the bottom end was built to last. Proper tuning will bring increased lifespan and performance but you will always have wear and tear. Bearing clearances aren't really a big problem in >1000hp engines from what I've seen. I'm speaking mostly about the j-series here but could apply to most other engines too.

I hate cars

Just a couple notes. The "dirt track"'guys did not invent wider bearing clearances due to oil contamination. This is what air and oil filters are for. A dirt track engine should have no more oil contamination than any other engine. Many dirt track classes were and still are limited to using stock internals to keep budgets down. This is why some of them along with many other racers use the wide bearing clearance approach as I will explain below. NASCAR using a 5w oil and tight clearances for qualifying have zero bearing on a high torque turbo street engine..

The wide journal bearing clearances come from a couple things. Materials used and bearing pressure. The big end of a connecting rod distorts under high load. It egg shapes. The crank pin distorts but torsionally. The more distortion of the rods and crank, the more clearance is needed... Most importantly clearance is a function of journal diameter.

Once aftermarket parts are used, factory clearances don't carry as much weight. For example I set my 602rwhp factory bottom end (cast crank and rods) with. 0025" on both the rods and mains. The reason being the block flexes letting the crank flex toward the center mains. The rod big end has a little flex considering the very high cylinder pressures. I run. The same clearance on the 2" rod journals as I do the 2.5" mains due to the known flexing of the stock parts.

My 1,400rwhp build just got. 0015" on the rods and. 002" on the mains because it's got a 4 bolt block, forged rods and crank and there's less flexing than my old 600hp daily setup

The moral being stockish clearances at high hp aren't completely insane. The purpose of maintaining a reasonable WORKING clearance is to prevent metal to metal contact on one extreme and to maintain oil pressure on the other extreme.

Now add a turbo where you've completely altered the power band and if built correctly you're making much more power at a much lower rpm. Low rpm requires a thicker oil to properly protect and keep the journal bearing surfaces separate. This is true in any journal bearing, not just in an ICE. Forget about kinematic viscosity. Shoot for an HTHSv minimum of 3.8 in a turbo 6 with good low end power. If you have a peaky turbo setup you can get away with a thinner oil.

On the other end, you need decent hot idle oil pressure. If it's too low after spirited driving, bump up the hthsv value a little. Losses from thicker oil are trivial at best. It's been shown that a higher HTHSv will usually lower ring to cylinder friction.

This is where ZDDP comes in handy. If you lose your dynamic lubrication in a bearing, the layer of ZDDP will be there to help for a short time. It also dramatically reduces wear where an engine operates in the boundary lubrication region, sliding surfaces like an old school flat tappet can but ALSO piston ring to cylinder wear. ZDDP has been shown to dramatically reduce wear in this region.

Not many people bring up rod side bearing clearance but this is one of the most important for ensuring long bearing life, good oil pressure, and adequate cylinder lube. Let's not forget temperature. A heavier oil is required based on higher temp alone.

Stock thrust bearing clearances can usually be used but determining the type of clutch being used can affect the optimal thrust clearance. The crank thrusts forward naturally under power.

I would go with the high end of stock tolerances with a forged bottom end and 600hp. Start with a GOOD 30wt like Redline and go to a heavier weight if your HOT idle oil pressure is below 10psi. Worrying about losing 1-2hp in internal frictional losses in a street car with way more power than traction is a waste of time. Let reliability come first.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Thanks Matt.

I have been using Redline since I went FI and looking at their specs, the HTHS value rises with the higher v but it also associated with multi-viscosity oils.

When you say 30wt, what lower value do you suggest (5/10/20)?

Regarding ZDDP, there are ZDDP additives, do you suggest this as well.

I totally forgot about the importance of oil pressure so thank you for the reminder.

Last thing about the thrust bearing clearance. I'm running an unsprung setup so the engagement can be shocking. What's the downside of running in the middle of the stock clearance?

EDIT:

Just re-read the ring to cylinder friction reduction with higher HTHSv.....what about during break in?

I hate cars

When it comes to the thrust bearing too tight is usually worse than too loose and the middle to high end of stock specs should work fine. We had one set up with too tight of a thrust clearance one time back when I was 17 and believed the engine builder that it was ok like that. In under 100 miles it developed a knock very similar to a rod knock that got worse under load. The tach also eventually started dancing around under load and the car would misfire. It had burned up the thrust bearing so bad that the crank was thrusting forward so far that the counterweights were hitting the main webbing of the block and the crank sensor was losing its pickup because the wheel was coming out of the gap.

I've seen problems with it set too tight but never with it set on the loose end
within reason.

About the oil, Red line has plenty ZDDP, no need to add any.. It also has lots of Moly which is good for break-in and is also the " secret ingredient" in most break-in oils. For break-in I only wish a good synthetic lubed so well that the rings wouldn't seat. That would mean practically no engine wear ever. The rings will seat fine with any oil. I would definitely drive it normal (don't baby it) including a little boost during break in. Most of the break-in is finished in the first 30 minutes anyway.

With that said, there's only one thing that bothers me about running a good synthetic during break-in. When the sharp edges of the crosshatching get run over by the rings you want them to break off and go into the oil. You don't want them to "fold over". The pattern and quality of the crosshatch has more to do with this than the oil but there are a group of people that believe this is where a regular dino oil can help. My personal engines are fired up on Red line from the beginning but the ones I built for others had dino in them. I truly don't believe it's necessary to break-in on dino but I don't risk it when it's my rep and when I have no control over how hard or how easy they're going to break it in.

Red line 5w-30 and 10w-30 oils are both straight weight Newtonian oils. This is one rare case where the 5w-30 is the more robust oil with better cold flow. The majority of their oils are straight weights that meet the multi viscosity requirements without viscosity index improvers. That's part of the reason the HTHSv is so high compared to the kinematic viscosity. I have a feeling if they advertised them as a 30/5w-30 for example, they would lose sales due to confused customers that don't want to run a straight weight. Newtonian being vastly superior in high stress conditions since the definition is something like a fluid whose viscosity does not change or depend on applied loads. In other words they don't thin out when you need them the most hence the high hthsv.

flexer

I agree with everything IHC said. I only break motors in on DINO. I also don't switch to synthetic for the first 2k miles as some say 95% break in is done in the first 30 min, and last 5% is done the next couple thousand. In the end there probably is no "right way" or "perfect way".

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I don't want to start a war on how to break in a motor but if I were to use conventional oils, what additives should be used and how should the engine be driven and for how long?

I appreciate your input!

A quick update, I've checked the rod clearance on #1 with plastigage and I'm now at .0015 which is closer to the high end of a new engine assuming that these things are usually on the low side.

The problem I am having is that the crank movement is so silky smooth that I am having trouble keeping it in place while I tighten and loosen the caps. So I am making up something to help with that.

UTAH TSX

http://www.summitracing.com/search/b...g&autoview=SKU Here is what everyone around here uses lately

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Your link doesn't work for me

UTAH TSX

Joe gibbs break in oil
.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Thanks!

flexer

Personally I use a good assembly lube and I am very generous. Also make sure that I prime the the engine and get solid pressure before I start the car. I use just a regular over the counter dino oil and run the motor for 10-15 min bringing it all the way up to temperature while someone else is checking for leaks. I do not let the RPM stay steady in those first 10-15 min but am holding it at 1k for a maybe 20 sec, then up to 1500 for 20 sec then 2000 for 20 sec then back to 1k for 20 sec then up to 2300 for 20 sec then back to 1500. you get the idea. I don't go over 2500 in those first 10 min.

Then ALL oil is drained and filter changed, and I let the motor cool all the way back down. I then use Joe Gibbs break in oil and go break in the motor on the street in about 30 min. I then come home and change the oil again and personally like to run Valvoline Racing oil. Got a lot of good stuff in it and zddp. I run that for the first several thousand miles and then switch to a synthetic.

Works for me.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Thanks.

Got quite a bit done the past few days. Rod bearing and side clearances verified, ring end gaps adjusted and I'm going to see if I can get the block to the machine shop to get the factory grease, which is all over the place cleaned out and bagged for assembly.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

More progress today. It got into the mid-40's today and since I have a set of cleaning brushes and a pressure washer, I decided to clean the block myself.

Crank is installed for the final time and pistons are ready to go in.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I'm getting ready to install the pistons and are wondering what to use for lube on the rings/cylinders.

Reading on the interwebz gives every opinion under the sun.

Curious what people here think.......

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

honda ATF