KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Thanks

Sent them an email to get pricing and availability info.

Euro-R_Spec_TSX

The ACL website does list 3 J-series applications.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Can you post a link? This is all I see:

http://www.aclperformance.com.au/tech_bearings_cr.htm

Euro-R_Spec_TSX

http://catalog.acl.com.au/aclwebcata...r:Honda&pg=all

Actually now that I looked more closely, there is no link on the J-series parts, so maybe they list the application but the parts aren't available.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Are you looking for just a source for OEM or ACLs? Have you thought of King/Toga bearings?

http://www.importperformanceparts.ne...ngs-acura.html

I checked to see if Mahle Clevite made some for the J, but doesn't look lkke it.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I'm just searching for options if the OEM bearings I have on order are dinged up again or if I end up with tolerances that are too tight.

I tried going through that company and the guy I talked to couldn't even figure out items that were listed on their website. It's too bad because they are actually within a few hours of where I live.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Did you call importperformance parts /Flatlander racing? I doubt they would have good info on the J32 in general and just have a website with all products listed.

Apparently King Bearings state that the J32 bearings are under development right now.
http://www.king-bearings.com/cat/Pan...family=1006802

You might try TopLine - the part number they use is the same as Togas, so my thought it Toga is just rebranded TopLine bearings.

http://www.toplineauto.com/index.asp

I thought King made Toga, but it appears that is not the case.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

That was the place. Like I said, they couldn't figure out part numbers that were stocked by Pauter and listed on their website. Pauter knew to ask about the small end width and had to modify their off the shelf part to match my pistons.

Thanks for the info.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I've been doing a lot of reading and depending on what I get from my OEM bearings, I may end up going with Toga's. It's really the only one I can find that lists them for the J32A3.

From what I can tell with any of these bearings and horror stories, most people claim they're spinning bearings and don't know why. But in most cases, these people don't know what their clearances are. I'm learning pretty quickly that if I build the bottom end too tight that I'll be doing the same.

Also learning that I need to use my oil pressure as a gauge as to what weight of oil to use. I'm going to go with Red Line 20w50 to start and see what I get.

If anyone has any information that would be helpful, I'd really appreciate it!

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Hey KN, want to know a little secret on the whole oem bearing thing and them getting all ate up during transit? Order ONE bearing halve at a time. Trust me on this one. The last engine I built for someone else had 6 bad bearings out of the package from them naively stapling all the bearing bags together and this didn't happen one time. Not twice either but THREE damn times in a row. I even accused the parts guy (which happens to be a close friend of mine) of sending me the same crap back over and over. Lol. One halve at a time...slow and steady is the name of the game here. Or is until Honda realizes the issue and begins individually boxing each bearing like EVERYONE else does when shipping damage sensitive parts.

Also trust me when I say NOT to use aftermarket bearings when you have the choice of using Honda bearings. Hondas bearings are second to none. There are many domestic race engine builders that will have rod or crank journals sized specifically for Honda oem journal sizes just so they can use the oem Honda bearings in the engine...no matter what the expected power or rev range of the engine will be. That says ALOT in itself. Even if you must wait a ridiculous amount of time for undamaged bearings, do it.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Also, don't use 2050 oil in a FI engine using factory specified clearances on the bearing journals. If anything, I'd do it one of two ways. Either tighten the clearances (like F1 or Nascars do at .001" clearances!) and run a super thin viscosity such as 020 oil...although this route requires a machinist that REALLY knows what he's doing it is the most effective way at ensuring the bottom end has bulletproof reliability and can also provide deceased friction on the engine thereby netting more power. Secondly, you can keep the clearances just as they are spec'd by Honda (.030") and run a quality synthetic 520. I know the insanely small clearances sound scary but it's the new trend in all pinnacle race series today. It's much different from what the old dirt circle trackers do at damn near DOUBLING clearances which was believed to be done for power increasing purposes but was actually done to decrease embedded debri/dirt in the bearing surfaces. Yup, its true.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

I've always heard the "Nascar uses Honda bearings" or more accurately that they use Honda rod journal sizes. My understanding was the smaller size reduced friction and thus freed up HP.

I've never found a definitive answer on this topic. My assumption is that the Honda journal size was a good compromise for a journal that would have readily available bearings. I'm sure it helps that Honda has many different bearing sizes available.

Is there a definitive way to tell which came first, i.e. Honda bearings are so great we need to run that journal size to use them, or hey, if we run a smaller journal size, we reduce friction and make more power...oh lookie here at this Honda journal - and bearings are available.

I know Clevite/Mahle now makes 'nascar' Honda bearings. After 20 or 30 years, do you still think teams with essentially unlimited budgets run an OEM Honda part in a $40K engine?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Thanks!

I was going to fatten up the clearances and run the heaver oil to build up the pressure to help prevent starvation. Was also looking at getting the Endyn modified pump but I'm not getting any response from them.

Reading on the NASCAR deal was interesting. But there isn't anyone around here who would do that kind of precision work. I was also reading that they run friction modifiers, anti-wear additives, no detergents, dispersants, corrosion inhibitors and basically water thick oil which all isn't good for a daily driver unless you plan to change the oil a lot. Pricing out 3 oil changes and 2 gearbox changes (Red Line) was over $300!

I'll go with Robert's suggestion of running stock clearances and 5w20.

As far as those bearings go, I see what you mean. But man, if worst case if I ordered all of the mains and rods separately, at 34 bearing halves, thats like 8 months!!!

I ordered 3 in this batch a little over a week ago so we'll see what happens.

Thanks again for the info!!!

UTAH TSX

I hate oil arguments but please do not run 20w fuel milage oil in a boosted engine or I will stab myself in the eyeball with a screwdriver, no more comments from me.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Keep going please......I'd like to hear all angles

UTAH TSX

Go to bob the oil guy site, there are years of arguments there
Please don't make me do it

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

LOL

It doesn't take long after reading BITOG forums to want to stick screwdrivers into both eyes. I always leave there wondering what the hell to believe.

I think many are there to make you believe that using bull semen is the only way to make a motor last.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Update:

Remaining main halves came in and look good.

Plastigage says they're .0015 in clearance which is within the spec for new bearings.

Rod halves all look good so I can keep on going as long as they are in spec.

Finally making some progress again.

UTAH TSX

Nice and they are on the loose end of the clearence that is good now you can run some nice thick oil

MyKL

Hi KN_TL,
I'm very intrested in your project because do the same on my J35A8 RL ))) (https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-rl-2005-2012-76/turbo-honda-legend-kb1-2007-acura-rl-2005-a-902943/)
I just got Pauter rods, Wiseco Pistons, J32A2 heads and make order for ARP studs.

Did you got TOGA bearing? Does they thinner or thicker the original?
What about oil pump?
Did you think how to solve the problem with ebb-tide of oil in crankcase? I think that at high acceleration oil can be cast from the oil pump.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I did not go with aftermarket and will stay with OEM.

However, I went out to put the mains in for what I thought was the last time and noticed while cleaning off the plastigage that I have some pits/nicks I didn't see before. I went to the crank and it's perfect. So I'm either so sleep deprived that I missed it or I may have done something during the measurement install. I was ultra careful both with cleaning and placement but who knows.

So rather than risk it, I placed another order. Like Robert says, slow is the way to go.......

fsttyms1

Speaks the truth. I had to have the dealer send back 6-7 bearings total 2 or 3 times due to them stupidly stapling them together and throwing them in a box. And this was when the J37 bearings were national backordered and even Acura wasnt getting them to build engines.

MyKL

OK, I think I'll take OEM bearing too.
Did you think about how to improve oil pump power (to raise the pressure) ?
As I remember Paul to raise the pressure tried to use washer.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I tried contacting Endyn but they haven't responded. Here is a link to the info I found:

http://www.theoldone.com/components/..._oil_pumps.htm

There are a lot of 4 banger options, again nothing for J-series.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

lol Endyn...Good ole Larry...

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

New bearings shipped, hopefully will be here Wed.

In the meantime, I worked on the fuel pump housing. Bypassed the stock FPR all together.

Going to put some foam around the pump and use a SS clamp to hold it in. It's fairly snug but just to make sure it doesn't slip down. I'll run a fuel tank safe hose from the pump outlet to the stock outlet to the outside and add another fitting for the return line. Also going to fill the hole on the top with some epoxy:

I hate cars

I'm glad someone spoke up on running thin oil and super tight clearances in a FI engine.

The stock clearances are fine as long as the tolerances are tight and you're using good rods. The big end of the rod tends to "oval" under high stress and this is why FI engines usually run more clearance. More cylinder pressure at lower rpm is harder on a journal bearing than less cylinder pressure at higher rpm. This is the difference in a FI engine and a NA engine. The more rpm, the better the crank and bearings are going to be separated.

Another point is that the side clearance of the rod is what controls flow through the bearing much more so than the weight of the oil.

Oil pressure as supplied from the pump does not keep the journal and bearings separated. All you need is enough oil pressure to keep the bearings supplied with fresh oil. The rotation of the crank creates the hydrodynamic wedge in the bearing and this is what keeps parts separated. This is also why an oil with a higher HTHS is important. You don't want it to shear down a couple weights thinner when it's needed most and allow metal to metal contact.

Also, our pumps are positive displacement pumps. You're getting the same volume of oil through the bearing with a 40wt and a 20wt. This is why the pressure goes up with a thicker oil. The pump pumps the same volume of oil with each revolution so in order to pump the same volume with a thicker oil, pressure has to go up. This assumes the pump is not in bypass. Hp loss from the oiling system and bearing friction is minute. On a street car reliability takes priority over those 2hp you gain by using a thin oil and tight clearances.

Most likely what will dictate your oil weight requirements is the hot idle oil pressure. Stock oil pumps are usually fine. The old 10psi per 1,000rpm rule still applies most of the time. Just remember, the pump is there to supply the bearings with oil, not to float the crank. One thing that seems to have been overlooked several posts back is that the turbo engine is going to be running considerably hotter oil temps. A 30wt at full temp in the turbo engine will easily be as thin as a 20wt in a non turbo TL. I've used a 40wt in my TL from time to time in the hot summers we have here. It's fine for use in a mild climate and it's even better in a turbo TL where it's going to be no thicker than a 30wt once it's warmed up.

Another factor in choosing the correct oil weight is you now have to feed the turbo so you're losing pressure there. While the newer dual ball bearing turbos usually have a restrictor and don't use a lot of oil, they still noticeably lower idle oil pressure. A good 30wt should be the minimum and a 40wt would be better suited most of the time regardless of bottom end clearances, based purely on expected operating temps and the additional volume requirement of the turbo itself.

As far as setting the clearances, I sometimes use plastigauge as a back up to check my measurements but I use a mic as the primary means of measurement. The mic is always going to be more accurate.

UTAH TSX

My new best friend in the word (I hate cars) finally I have found someone who likes 40 weight oil and likes the mic. better than plastigauge
Since you are now my new best friend will you help me pick a turbo for my remote mount turbo project my son and I are doing ? (go to our thread)

FamilyGuy

Can you order them all at the same time, but each one from a different place? This way all will be packaged separately.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

They come packaged separately but they are in the same skimpy plastic packaging that nuts and bolts come in without any protective padding. As someone said, this is not a dealer issue, it's a factory issue.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Lol.

They will never learn...

UTAH TSX

KN do you have a stock fuel pump you could measure the diameter and length and take a few pictures of, I want to see if a dw65c dietchworks pump will fit, it fit right into my stock housing with no mods and is much quieter than the last walbo pump I had

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Unfortunately it went out in last weeks trash. But here is what I have:

UTAH TSX

was there any insulation around the pump do you think this would work in the stock housing

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

The important dimension is the 2.87" length because it determines where the sock sits inside the bucket. There isn't enough information on that drawing to be sure.

To get my final modification I went through 3 housings. One was included with the turbo kit and the other I got off ebay for $35

My Walbro was loud as well. I don't hear the Aeromotive at all.

I hate cars

There has been a problem with Chinese knock off Walbros for a long time so that might be part of the problem. I run two in the tank which should be good for bottom 9s safely and they leaned my car leaned out so bad in the mid 10s that I popped a headgasket. They were also loud where the prior real Walbros were barely louder than stock. I would say just one would not support 300hp or anymore than a stock pump. Not sure about external dimension differences.

The Aeromotive is probably a better idea.

flexer

I made just under 500 wheel on E70 on a single walbro 255 HP. Then I made 738 whp on a single walbro 485 or 418 is the real part number again on e70, so a single walbro 485 is good to 800+ on gas. They have all been super reliable and quiet for me. Also I like running single pumps so if one fails I don't pop a motor.

The key is what you run your base fuel pressure at. When I made 738 wheel on the single walbro my base pressure was 36 psi. ALL FUEL PUMPS run out of steam over 75 psi so what your base fuel pressure is and how much boost your running on your 1:1 reg will determine what your ending fuel pressure is.

I hate cars

As stated, the fake Walbros won't support 300hp in my unfortunate experience with them.

A dual in tank setup worked fine for many years, no failures and it allowed me to run a stock FPR under the hood and no tell tale loud pump which is important when setting up races.

Not all fuel pumps run out of steam above 75psi. It depends on the pump and the relief. What I've found is injectors begin to struggle to open in the 75-80lb static range. One "stock" car we were trying to get into the 10s with very, very little done to it refused to start one day after we bumped pressure to 80psi before rise. Plugs were bone dry. The injectors flat out wouldn't open at the pressure. I'm sure under 30psi boost they would work. Reducing the pressure back down cured the problem instantly.

flexer

The problem with any duel set-up is if one pump craps the bed, the car still works, starts, and runs great......until boost. At that point the one pump is not enough, car leans out, and pop goes the motor. These horror stories are all over the internet. The buddies that I know that run twin pumps change both pumps every 2-3 years just to have new pumps. Thing I don't get is why? Unless your going for more than 700 wheel on E70 or 800+ on race gas it just makes no sense after the 418 pump came out. And I haven't even started talking about running the pump at higher voltage yet. I did 611 whp on a single walbro 255 at 19.5v on E70. I can only imagine what a walbro 418 would be like on 19.5 volts. You could break 1000 whp EASY with just that single $180 dollar pump. Quiet too :-)

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Wouldn't dual pumps be more for redundancy? It's a common practice to take multiple pumps and sum their capacity to hit a certain target?