KN_TL's Rebuild/Turbo Install thread
05-07-2014, 11:05 PM
#41
Team Owner
Thanks. I'm serious, I've done this so many times it's really easy for me. I hate to see someone get discouraged because it can be overwhelming. I'll gladly do the machine work and build it if he's close enough, for free of course. If I can at least get the specs, I think the deck height, journal diameter, is just a google search away. With the rod length and pin height/compression height we can see if the combo is at least in the right ballpark and usable. This thing can become a reality pretty quickly.
About the cause of failure... I don't care to get into that because it will lead to another shit thread. If I thought KN was concerned I would have asked more questions such as are the ring ends shiny, are there any pits in the top of the pistons, was the skirt scuffed, was the broken part of the piston near the intake side, were the plugs blistered, etc, etc. I'm sure he's well aware the car was untuned and the risks involved but there's no need to kick someone when they're down with a broken piston and a confusing combo. It's broken now and it's time to focus on the bad ass forged bottom end.
One more thing, the good rods are a great idea for several reasons with power level being just one of them. I like this combo a lot and I think there's huge potential for a very streetable, reliable 600whp TL and even more with the wick turned up. This car should make big power for a given octane.
About the cause of failure... I don't care to get into that because it will lead to another shit thread. If I thought KN was concerned I would have asked more questions such as are the ring ends shiny, are there any pits in the top of the pistons, was the skirt scuffed, was the broken part of the piston near the intake side, were the plugs blistered, etc, etc. I'm sure he's well aware the car was untuned and the risks involved but there's no need to kick someone when they're down with a broken piston and a confusing combo. It's broken now and it's time to focus on the bad ass forged bottom end.
One more thing, the good rods are a great idea for several reasons with power level being just one of them. I like this combo a lot and I think there's huge potential for a very streetable, reliable 600whp TL and even more with the wick turned up. This car should make big power for a given octane.
05-08-2014, 06:39 AM
#42
Thanks. I'm serious, I've done this so many times it's really easy for me. I hate to see someone get discouraged because it can be overwhelming. I'll gladly do the machine work and build it if he's close enough, for free of course. If I can at least get the specs, I think the deck height, journal diameter, is just a google search away. With the rod length and pin height/compression height we can see if the combo is at least in the right ballpark and usable. This thing can become a reality pretty quickly.
About the cause of failure... I don't care to get into that because it will lead to another shit thread. If I thought KN was concerned I would have asked more questions such as are the ring ends shiny, are there any pits in the top of the pistons, was the skirt scuffed, was the broken part of the piston near the intake side, were the plugs blistered, etc, etc. I'm sure he's well aware the car was untuned and the risks involved but there's no need to kick someone when they're down with a broken piston and a confusing combo. It's broken now and it's time to focus on the bad ass forged bottom end.
One more thing, the good rods are a great idea for several reasons with power level being just one of them. I like this combo a lot and I think there's huge potential for a very streetable, reliable 600whp TL and even more with the wick turned up. This car should make big power for a given octane.
About the cause of failure... I don't care to get into that because it will lead to another shit thread. If I thought KN was concerned I would have asked more questions such as are the ring ends shiny, are there any pits in the top of the pistons, was the skirt scuffed, was the broken part of the piston near the intake side, were the plugs blistered, etc, etc. I'm sure he's well aware the car was untuned and the risks involved but there's no need to kick someone when they're down with a broken piston and a confusing combo. It's broken now and it's time to focus on the bad ass forged bottom end.
One more thing, the good rods are a great idea for several reasons with power level being just one of them. I like this combo a lot and I think there's huge potential for a very streetable, reliable 600whp TL and even more with the wick turned up. This car should make big power for a given octane.
Anyway, I'm going to try and contact them again.....
As far as my mistakes, I own up to mistakes and the first thing was not getting it dyno tuned. But I had in the back of my mind to do this build all along. The reason I am doing this at all is to learn so if you'd take the time to explain what happened, I would be appreciative.
I'll get answers to your questions when I get home. The only one's I can answer from here is there were no pits on the crown, skirt/cylinder wall was not scuffed and the plug on that cylinder was a little leaner but not extreme.
What are the other things you'd like to know.
Also, I really appreciate your offer to help me. Unfortunately I am on the opposite side of the country.
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thisaznboi88 (05-13-2014)
05-13-2014, 07:12 PM
#44
I contacted them again, it was a tech not getting back to me. Because they needed to narrow the small end width, there was some communication that they dropped the ball on. I came to the conclusion that they are the only people who are stocking rods and other than custom, so this was my only option.
The next hurdle was getting a machine shop to return my calls. One place did immediately but because it is racing season, are booked to the end of the year. Another place never got back to me. The third place, a small snowmobile specialty shop said 'sure, no problem!'.
Up here, unless you are a lawnmower, tractor or an all american muscle based engine, they don't seem to want your business.
All of the OEM parts are ordered and should be here this week. I decided to pick up EvilVirus's/thisaznboi88's heads, trying to decide on runners.....main objective is to not have to remove the block and heads once it's back in the car.
Fuel system upgrade also being considered next as I started with picking up the fuel rails from Skier4lyfe303.
So things are moving along. Hoping to be back on the street by beginning to middle of June.
The next hurdle was getting a machine shop to return my calls. One place did immediately but because it is racing season, are booked to the end of the year. Another place never got back to me. The third place, a small snowmobile specialty shop said 'sure, no problem!'.
Up here, unless you are a lawnmower, tractor or an all american muscle based engine, they don't seem to want your business.
All of the OEM parts are ordered and should be here this week. I decided to pick up EvilVirus's/thisaznboi88's heads, trying to decide on runners.....main objective is to not have to remove the block and heads once it's back in the car.
Fuel system upgrade also being considered next as I started with picking up the fuel rails from Skier4lyfe303.
So things are moving along. Hoping to be back on the street by beginning to middle of June.
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Atlas.46 (05-13-2014)
05-14-2014, 09:26 AM
#45
Team Owner
I've had to deal with the bad attitude toward anything that's not a Domestic V8. I've gotten to where I don't mention the engine or car when ordering rods and pistons or just about anything else for that matter. In fact, the rods that come stock in my engine are from the old Buick 455 so I'll tell them it's a 455 and let them wonder why there are only 6 of them.
I don't know why many shops act like it's a big deal to do import/V6 stuff. There's very little diffference in the bottom end, especially the rods and pistons. Many share parts between their V6 and V8 models. But back to the bottom end, sometimes it's better to give them the stock specs without a brand listed and see what's available. It's not right but it might save you some money if they don't know what car the parts are going in.
There are other shortcuts here and there. For example I found that there's an off the shelf intake and exhaust valve meant for the Gen I SBC that fit my car. My rods are from a 455 Buick, I had the cylinders bored .035 instead of .030 over to make it an even 4" bore so I could use off the shelf Chevy blower pistons. It might take time but you'll probably be able to find what you need at a deep discount. Even Googling the stock rod length and big end diameter might help you find a more popular OEM application.
About the rod side clearance, pay lots of attention to the big end (I'm assuming it might need to be looked at since the small end has to be machined). Too tight and you hurt cylinder lube. Too loose and you lose oil pressure.
About your heads and intake, this is just my opinon but I thought I would throw it out there... With your compression ratio, you're going to easily make 600whp on pump gas and a small meth shot on the stock heads/cams/intake/throttlebody. You should have no issues making 1,000hp on the stock top end with more boost. I honestly would not waste a penny on upgrading the heads, intake, or throttle body other than some good exhaust valves that will take the heat. It's a very small return on your money and the stock stuff will easily make all the power you could ever want. I've made 602rwhp on my bored out stock throttlebody which is only 62mm. You can go much farther on stock parts with boost, what the naturally aspirated guys do does not apply here. I wouldn't even think about spending money on a larger throttlebody on the TL until you surpass 700whp or even more.
To put it in perspective, ported heads and intake won't get you any more power than running an extra psi of boost on the stock stuff.
I don't know why many shops act like it's a big deal to do import/V6 stuff. There's very little diffference in the bottom end, especially the rods and pistons. Many share parts between their V6 and V8 models. But back to the bottom end, sometimes it's better to give them the stock specs without a brand listed and see what's available. It's not right but it might save you some money if they don't know what car the parts are going in.
There are other shortcuts here and there. For example I found that there's an off the shelf intake and exhaust valve meant for the Gen I SBC that fit my car. My rods are from a 455 Buick, I had the cylinders bored .035 instead of .030 over to make it an even 4" bore so I could use off the shelf Chevy blower pistons. It might take time but you'll probably be able to find what you need at a deep discount. Even Googling the stock rod length and big end diameter might help you find a more popular OEM application.
About the rod side clearance, pay lots of attention to the big end (I'm assuming it might need to be looked at since the small end has to be machined). Too tight and you hurt cylinder lube. Too loose and you lose oil pressure.
About your heads and intake, this is just my opinon but I thought I would throw it out there... With your compression ratio, you're going to easily make 600whp on pump gas and a small meth shot on the stock heads/cams/intake/throttlebody. You should have no issues making 1,000hp on the stock top end with more boost. I honestly would not waste a penny on upgrading the heads, intake, or throttle body other than some good exhaust valves that will take the heat. It's a very small return on your money and the stock stuff will easily make all the power you could ever want. I've made 602rwhp on my bored out stock throttlebody which is only 62mm. You can go much farther on stock parts with boost, what the naturally aspirated guys do does not apply here. I wouldn't even think about spending money on a larger throttlebody on the TL until you surpass 700whp or even more.
To put it in perspective, ported heads and intake won't get you any more power than running an extra psi of boost on the stock stuff.
05-14-2014, 11:01 AM
#46
I was looking to find a rod that would work off the shelf, but I can't seem to find anything. The only other 162mm rod I can even find is a for a long-rod 4G63 motor, but the big end is much smaller 48mm vs. the J32 58mm. That spec is from Pauter's site for the J32, I don't have one to measure offhand.
KN - is the small end width they have listed on their site not correct, or are you doing something one-off? They have it listed as 25.40mm.
KN - is the small end width they have listed on their site not correct, or are you doing something one-off? They have it listed as 25.40mm.
05-14-2014, 07:10 PM
#50
Team Owner
Don't stay on one cylinder too long, alternate so there's no temperature change.
Most importantly, follow the ring manufacturers honing recommendations.
Just as importantly, clean, clean, clean after you're done honing. I use cold water and dawn and then hot water and dawn. Use lint free rags or whatever will leave no residue in the cylinders. Clean every oil passage in the block and crank, rifle cleaning brushes work well. Once you think it's perfectly clean, do it again. Blow it dry with dry compressed air being careful not to stir up dust. When you're done, spray some WD-40 on the crank and cylinders and anything that might rust and immediately bag it with a good clean garbage bag or equivalent and don't open it up until you need to.
If at all possible, do the assembly in the house and on a calm, dust free day.
Regardless of where you do it, on blueprinting day, make sure all parts are stored in the same area so they're all the same temp.
I can write up a step by step DIY and recommend the tools to get when I get home if you want. You're planning on doing the assembly yourself, right? I think it's a great idea and it will be a sense of accomplishment every time you drive the car.
05-14-2014, 07:51 PM
#51
It can be done but if you have a spare to practice on, that would be beneficial. The rpm and spm are important to getting the right pattern. A practice block is also good to get an idea of how quickly material is removed so you don't accidentally remove too much.
Don't stay on one cylinder too long, alternate so there's no temperature change.
Most importantly, follow the ring manufacturers honing recommendations.
Just as importantly, clean, clean, clean after you're done honing. I use cold water and dawn and then hot water and dawn. Use lint free rags or whatever will leave no residue in the cylinders. Clean every oil passage in the block and crank, rifle cleaning brushes work well. Once you think it's perfectly clean, do it again. Blow it dry with dry compressed air being careful not to stir up dust. When you're done, spray some WD-40 on the crank and cylinders and anything that might rust and immediately bag it with a good clean garbage bag or equivalent and don't open it up until you need to.
If at all possible, do the assembly in the house and on a calm, dust free day.
Regardless of where you do it, on blueprinting day, make sure all parts are stored in the same area so they're all the same temp.
I can write up a step by step DIY and recommend the tools to get when I get home if you want. You're planning on doing the assembly yourself, right? I think it's a great idea and it will be a sense of accomplishment every time you drive the car.
Don't stay on one cylinder too long, alternate so there's no temperature change.
Most importantly, follow the ring manufacturers honing recommendations.
Just as importantly, clean, clean, clean after you're done honing. I use cold water and dawn and then hot water and dawn. Use lint free rags or whatever will leave no residue in the cylinders. Clean every oil passage in the block and crank, rifle cleaning brushes work well. Once you think it's perfectly clean, do it again. Blow it dry with dry compressed air being careful not to stir up dust. When you're done, spray some WD-40 on the crank and cylinders and anything that might rust and immediately bag it with a good clean garbage bag or equivalent and don't open it up until you need to.
If at all possible, do the assembly in the house and on a calm, dust free day.
Regardless of where you do it, on blueprinting day, make sure all parts are stored in the same area so they're all the same temp.
I can write up a step by step DIY and recommend the tools to get when I get home if you want. You're planning on doing the assembly yourself, right? I think it's a great idea and it will be a sense of accomplishment every time you drive the car.
I've done some work on small single cylinder motorcycle engines in the past with a 3-stone hone. But I see now that they have flex hones. I watched several videos, one used a 3-stone and then a flex hone in reverse.
What do you suggest I use and what grit?
thanks!
05-15-2014, 12:07 AM
#52
Team Owner
Would you mind posting up your rods and any specs that differ from stock. Same with the pistons or let me know the model and I'll look it up. What rings are you using?
Is this getting align honed? Going along with that, your mains are stock and marked to go back in the correct orientation, right?
Let me look up some info and I'll write up a step by step and very detailed.
One other thing, now that you're not stock, you need an oil pressure gauge so you can figure out the right viscosity to use.
The first step is blueprinting the engine. You'll do lots of measurements and torquing and untorquing. You'll need all bearings and rings, etc.
It will be time consuming but pretty easy. It can be overwhelming at first but it's not that bad once you start. I want to see you complete this, I don't think anyone else has built their own.
Is this getting align honed? Going along with that, your mains are stock and marked to go back in the correct orientation, right?
Let me look up some info and I'll write up a step by step and very detailed.
One other thing, now that you're not stock, you need an oil pressure gauge so you can figure out the right viscosity to use.
The first step is blueprinting the engine. You'll do lots of measurements and torquing and untorquing. You'll need all bearings and rings, etc.
It will be time consuming but pretty easy. It can be overwhelming at first but it's not that bad once you start. I want to see you complete this, I don't think anyone else has built their own.
05-15-2014, 06:16 AM
#53
Would you mind posting up your rods and any specs that differ from stock. Same with the pistons or let me know the model and I'll look it up. What rings are you using?
Is this getting align honed? Going along with that, your mains are stock and marked to go back in the correct orientation, right?
Let me look up some info and I'll write up a step by step and very detailed.
One other thing, now that you're not stock, you need an oil pressure gauge so you can figure out the right viscosity to use.
The first step is blueprinting the engine. You'll do lots of measurements and torquing and untorquing. You'll need all bearings and rings, etc.
It will be time consuming but pretty easy. It can be overwhelming at first but it's not that bad once you start. I want to see you complete this, I don't think anyone else has built their own.
Is this getting align honed? Going along with that, your mains are stock and marked to go back in the correct orientation, right?
Let me look up some info and I'll write up a step by step and very detailed.
One other thing, now that you're not stock, you need an oil pressure gauge so you can figure out the right viscosity to use.
The first step is blueprinting the engine. You'll do lots of measurements and torquing and untorquing. You'll need all bearings and rings, etc.
It will be time consuming but pretty easy. It can be overwhelming at first but it's not that bad once you start. I want to see you complete this, I don't think anyone else has built their own.
I'll be getting the rods on Monday and I'll scan the build sheet from the factory for the pistons. The pistons are CP-Carrillo SC70404's which were purchased by recommendation of bmeyer. I'm hoping I didn't jump the gun and end up with something I can't use. The block/car has about 35K miles so I am hoping that helps.
I am reusing the crank and purchased new bearings for both the mains and rods. With regard to mains and orientation, are you referring to using the old bearings?
For measurement tools, there are so many out there with even larger price differences. What do you recommend I purchase? This will probably be a limited use thing but I also don't want to sacrifice accuracy or repeatability by getting junk.
It is really a blessing that no one would take on my work or maybe they knew I was uninformed. Now that I took the time to read up further, I need to check each bore and piston and get the clearance as close I can. I suppose I could give them everything but this is why I am doing this, to learn.
thanks
Last edited by KN_TL; 05-15-2014 at 06:19 AM.
05-15-2014, 09:14 AM
#56
Team Owner
bmeyer built his own and I was in contact with him but he abruptly stopped communicating so I am not sure what happened to him. He sold his TL and went to BMW.
I'll be getting the rods on Monday and I'll scan the build sheet from the factory for the pistons. The pistons are CP-Carrillo SC70404's which were purchased by recommendation of bmeyer. I'm hoping I didn't jump the gun and end up with something I can't use. The block/car has about 35K miles so I am hoping that helps.
I am reusing the crank and purchased new bearings for both the mains and rods. With regard to mains and orientation, are you referring to using the old bearings?
For measurement tools, there are so many out there with even larger price differences. What do you recommend I purchase? This will probably be a limited use thing but I also don't want to sacrifice accuracy or repeatability by getting junk.
It is really a blessing that no one would take on my work or maybe they knew I was uninformed. Now that I took the time to read up further, I need to check each bore and piston and get the clearance as close I can. I suppose I could give them everything but this is why I am doing this, to learn.
thanks
I'll be getting the rods on Monday and I'll scan the build sheet from the factory for the pistons. The pistons are CP-Carrillo SC70404's which were purchased by recommendation of bmeyer. I'm hoping I didn't jump the gun and end up with something I can't use. The block/car has about 35K miles so I am hoping that helps.
I am reusing the crank and purchased new bearings for both the mains and rods. With regard to mains and orientation, are you referring to using the old bearings?
For measurement tools, there are so many out there with even larger price differences. What do you recommend I purchase? This will probably be a limited use thing but I also don't want to sacrifice accuracy or repeatability by getting junk.
It is really a blessing that no one would take on my work or maybe they knew I was uninformed. Now that I took the time to read up further, I need to check each bore and piston and get the clearance as close I can. I suppose I could give them everything but this is why I am doing this, to learn.
thanks
05-15-2014, 09:17 AM
#57
Team Owner
The glaze could be the hard wear surface of the iron. This is a good thing once it's broken in but a bad thing to try and seat new rings on. This glaze is what allows the cylinders to last for hundreds of thousands of miles but it also makes it very hard to seat new rings. At a minimum you need to break the glaze with a hone.
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csmeance (05-17-2014)
05-15-2014, 09:37 AM
#58
The glaze could be the hard wear surface of the iron. This is a good thing once it's broken in but a bad thing to try and seat new rings on. This glaze is what allows the cylinders to last for hundreds of thousands of miles but it also makes it very hard to seat new rings. At a minimum you need to break the glaze with a hone.
thanks!
05-24-2014, 05:03 PM
#59
Quick update on stuff gathered for the build
Pauter Rods
CP-Carrillo Pistons
OEM Rod and Crank bearings
Just about every gasket and Hondabond
P2R Injector Rails
Injector Dynamics 1000 injectors
KMS Racing valve springs
ARP Head Studs
Replacement main and flywheel bolts.
Outside Micrometers
Bore Gauge
Lisle Hone
Ring End Filer
Ring Tool
ARP Ring compressor
All that is left to purchase is the fuel system components (fittings, hoses, regulator and filter).
Going to start measuring the new pistons this weekend and then the block.
Pauter Rods
CP-Carrillo Pistons
OEM Rod and Crank bearings
Just about every gasket and Hondabond
P2R Injector Rails
Injector Dynamics 1000 injectors
KMS Racing valve springs
ARP Head Studs
Replacement main and flywheel bolts.
Outside Micrometers
Bore Gauge
Lisle Hone
Ring End Filer
Ring Tool
ARP Ring compressor
All that is left to purchase is the fuel system components (fittings, hoses, regulator and filter).
Going to start measuring the new pistons this weekend and then the block.
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AccordFlex (05-26-2014)
05-27-2014, 05:24 AM
#61
Another question that may or may not been asked here.
Alloy - 2618 vs 4032.
Going into this, I had no idea and none of the purchasing information has this readily available.
Going through the pros and cons, the extra clearance required and the noise related to that will be an slight annoyance but I have a J35 that has had piston slap for 100K miles with no issues. In my reading, many are stating that rebuilds in the 50-70K mile range is going to be required.
Doing this job, I have acquired all the tools to do this again except for this area's machine shops unwillingness to even look at non-domestic hardware, but I was just curious if anyone has any long term experience with this kind of build.
Update on parts:
Ordered everything last night to complete the fuel system upgrade and purchased a desiccant air dryer for the build. This should be it for the major piggybank raid......I hope.
Alloy - 2618 vs 4032.
Going into this, I had no idea and none of the purchasing information has this readily available.
Going through the pros and cons, the extra clearance required and the noise related to that will be an slight annoyance but I have a J35 that has had piston slap for 100K miles with no issues. In my reading, many are stating that rebuilds in the 50-70K mile range is going to be required.
Doing this job, I have acquired all the tools to do this again except for this area's machine shops unwillingness to even look at non-domestic hardware, but I was just curious if anyone has any long term experience with this kind of build.
Update on parts:
Ordered everything last night to complete the fuel system upgrade and purchased a desiccant air dryer for the build. This should be it for the major piggybank raid......I hope.
Last edited by KN_TL; 05-27-2014 at 05:28 AM.
05-27-2014, 07:16 AM
#62
Another question that may or may not been asked here.
Alloy - 2618 vs 4032.
Going into this, I had no idea and none of the purchasing information has this readily available.
Going through the pros and cons, the extra clearance required and the noise related to that will be an slight annoyance but I have a J35 that has had piston slap for 100K miles with no issues. In my reading, many are stating that rebuilds in the 50-70K mile range is going to be required.
Doing this job, I have acquired all the tools to do this again except for this area's machine shops unwillingness to even look at non-domestic hardware, but I was just curious if anyone has any long term experience with this kind of build.
Update on parts:
Ordered everything last night to complete the fuel system upgrade and purchased a desiccant air dryer for the build. This should be it for the major piggybank raid......I hope.
Alloy - 2618 vs 4032.
Going into this, I had no idea and none of the purchasing information has this readily available.
Going through the pros and cons, the extra clearance required and the noise related to that will be an slight annoyance but I have a J35 that has had piston slap for 100K miles with no issues. In my reading, many are stating that rebuilds in the 50-70K mile range is going to be required.
Doing this job, I have acquired all the tools to do this again except for this area's machine shops unwillingness to even look at non-domestic hardware, but I was just curious if anyone has any long term experience with this kind of build.
Update on parts:
Ordered everything last night to complete the fuel system upgrade and purchased a desiccant air dryer for the build. This should be it for the major piggybank raid......I hope.
05-29-2014, 03:06 PM
#63
I'm at a crossroads.....
All pistons are pretty much dead on @ 3.5005"
Set my outside mic to 3.5, zero out bore gauge to that measurement and measure the bore at the 90's in 3 depths.
Delta's range from +.0045 to +.0055.
So that means bore sizes are ranging from 3.5044 to 3.5055.
My worse case clearance before any machining is already .0050 and the spec is .0035.
I guess I could get away with .006 from what I read, but being in the northeast, the noise is going to be outrageous.
Looking at sleeves, Darton J35's start with a 4.90" so I'd be able to meet the specified clearance. But oh so much money.........
I have EVERYTHING I need to go all out which was a huge amount of money already. Got to think about this......
All pistons are pretty much dead on @ 3.5005"
Set my outside mic to 3.5, zero out bore gauge to that measurement and measure the bore at the 90's in 3 depths.
Delta's range from +.0045 to +.0055.
So that means bore sizes are ranging from 3.5044 to 3.5055.
My worse case clearance before any machining is already .0050 and the spec is .0035.
I guess I could get away with .006 from what I read, but being in the northeast, the noise is going to be outrageous.
Looking at sleeves, Darton J35's start with a 4.90" so I'd be able to meet the specified clearance. But oh so much money.........
I have EVERYTHING I need to go all out which was a huge amount of money already. Got to think about this......
05-29-2014, 03:46 PM
#64
Team Owner
I wouldn't mess with .006". At this point, new pistons might be the better option. My email is down at work, of you've sent anything in the past 24hrs, can you send it to my personal email? I had a few questions.
05-29-2014, 04:19 PM
#65
Everything I asked you recently I answered myself so for now, I have to decide which way to go.
The problem with new pistons and this area is getting someone to do the machining......I found a place in CT that has a package so I am considering this.
Once I get past this obstacle, the rest is assembly.
05-31-2014, 08:35 AM
#66
Even though I was prepping myself for another big dollar hit, the reality is that any sleeves listed are custom made and have a 30 day TAT just to get the sleeves then the time it will take to install.
While considering 90mm pistons, it occurred to me that getting the skirts coated could take up the excess clearance. But how durable would that be?
Any opinions or experiences out there?
While considering 90mm pistons, it occurred to me that getting the skirts coated could take up the excess clearance. But how durable would that be?
Any opinions or experiences out there?
05-31-2014, 02:50 PM
#67
Team Owner
Even though I was prepping myself for another big dollar hit, the reality is that any sleeves listed are custom made and have a 30 day TAT just to get the sleeves then the time it will take to install.
While considering 90mm pistons, it occurred to me that getting the skirts coated could take up the excess clearance. But how durable would that be?
Any opinions or experiences out there?
While considering 90mm pistons, it occurred to me that getting the skirts coated could take up the excess clearance. But how durable would that be?
Any opinions or experiences out there?
In order to check yourself, can you measure the very top of the bore, the 1/8" or so that does not wear. That should measure exactly stock bore. What's throwing me is hone marks are very shallow and if they're visible I can't imagine there being this much actual wear.
Coating the piston will work for a while for the piston itself but ring durability will be compromised if the bore is too large. Have you stuck a ring in a cylinder (using the piston to square if up) and see what kind if gap you have. If the gap is too wide already you're pretty much stuck with liners. Plus the rings lose strength quickly when they protrude out of the lands too far which also increases cylinder and ring wear.
I have a gut feeling we can salvage this thing. I apologize, work has been crazy and my friends father had a heart attack so I'm working for free this weekend helping him run his business that I know nothing about. I promise I'll help a lot more as soon as this weekend is over. In fact, I have next week off of work, maybe we can talk.
05-31-2014, 03:42 PM
#69
Team Owner
If you do liners, I know a process that can get you 3.8-4.2L with the J32 crank and just over 4.7-4.8L with a J37 crank. It's complicated and it takes time. It's not something most machine shops can do but I did it with a 944 turbo Porsche and got 3.7L (I think) out of it.
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thisaznboi88 (05-31-2014)
06-01-2014, 02:11 PM
#73
What does CP Carillo say on their spec sheet for piston to wall clearance? .040?
A new block would be in the range of .0034 - .004 with your current pistons.
I think the block price from Acura is about $625. I'm not sure what kind of machining it would need though or additional prep.
It's always easy to spend someone else's money and say go for the sleeves, but I was curious what your ultimate goal is? How much HP are you looking to make? Are you sticking with the turbo from the JnR kit? Isn't it only good to just over 500 WHP? I'd stay stock block if that's your goal. Otherwise, for 1000 whp, go for the sleeves. Though, to reach that, I'd think you'll need quite a bit bigger turbo, which will probably be a different flange than the JnR kit (not sure if it is a T3 or T4, I assume T3?) and a larger turbo may not even fit with the JnR piping.
I think an excellent combo that would be perfect for 500 WHP+ and pretty robust would be:
Stock block
stock crank
stock rods
CP Pistons (purely for 9:1 CR)
25lbs boost
E85
Hondata Flashpro
Hondata Traction control
J&S safeguard
New tires every week, lol
06-01-2014, 03:41 PM
#74
I'm going to stay within the limits of the turbo. Even at mid-500whp levels, the transmission is going to give up.
In looking @ sleeves, my main objective is turnaround. Wasn't considering as with almost everything with this engine is custom built.
CP specs skirt clearance @ .0035" and each piston is dead nuts on 3.5005.
I just measured the stock piston and it's about 3.5008 so with my nominal bore measurement of +.0046, I appear to be +.0016 out of the service limit on stock pistons.
If the clearance new pistons need an additional .001 in clearance, I was hopeful that a new block would be within the .0035 spec that CP recommends.
That's my thought process......I just want to get it together before it snows again
Edit: The one thing I missed in making measurements was having the main caps in place torqued to the correct specs. What I am not sure of, which I am waiting for IHC is if it's just the caps or with the crank in place as well.
In looking @ sleeves, my main objective is turnaround. Wasn't considering as with almost everything with this engine is custom built.
CP specs skirt clearance @ .0035" and each piston is dead nuts on 3.5005.
I just measured the stock piston and it's about 3.5008 so with my nominal bore measurement of +.0046, I appear to be +.0016 out of the service limit on stock pistons.
If the clearance new pistons need an additional .001 in clearance, I was hopeful that a new block would be within the .0035 spec that CP recommends.
That's my thought process......I just want to get it together before it snows again
Edit: The one thing I missed in making measurements was having the main caps in place torqued to the correct specs. What I am not sure of, which I am waiting for IHC is if it's just the caps or with the crank in place as well.
Last edited by KN_TL; 06-01-2014 at 03:43 PM.
06-01-2014, 03:53 PM
#75
Team Owner
You don't need the crank in it for measurements.
Have you measured the very top of the bores, the part that does not wear? This is important for determining the root cause of the problem.
Have you measured the very top of the bores, the part that does not wear? This is important for determining the root cause of the problem.
06-01-2014, 03:59 PM
#76
My bad on stock piston measurement, newb reading the mics. It's 3.5027.
Forget everything I just wrote above.
Here are the measurements which I will do again (T, C, B)
#1 .0044, .0044, .0045
#2 .0045, .0044, .0045
#3 .0046, .0045, .0045
#4 .0046, .0046, .0046
#5 .0046, .0046, .0046
#6 .0055, .0045, .0046
I'll post up and email you the results once I have them......too tired to mess with it at the moment.
Forget everything I just wrote above.
Here are the measurements which I will do again (T, C, B)
#1 .0044, .0044, .0045
#2 .0045, .0044, .0045
#3 .0046, .0045, .0045
#4 .0046, .0046, .0046
#5 .0046, .0046, .0046
#6 .0055, .0045, .0046
I'll post up and email you the results once I have them......too tired to mess with it at the moment.
06-01-2014, 04:48 PM
#77
Granted it's only .0002, but that measurement on the piston is still undersized based on OEM, at least from the 2004 manual. Are you measuring 16mm up from the bottom of the skirt? Could it be mic accuracy?
Was your 3.5005 reading correct on the new pistons?
Was your 3.5005 reading correct on the new pistons?
06-01-2014, 05:06 PM
#78
It's actually .002 larger. Seems as though only a factory sized bore would work because the new spec is 3.5039 to 3.5045 and that would assume the new bore size is 3.5039 finished. Not sure how to find out what needs to be done to a factory block. Service manual doesn't go into that.
Maybe custom pistons are in my future......
We'll see what happens with my next measurements.