pgeorg

From the schematics that i just looked at, we have a wet clutch pack. I don't think i am reading it wrong........

RLX-Sport Hybrid

GK I think I have experienced what you describe, but it has been so slight I'm not sure if I would consider it as an issue. I would just categorize it as part of the unique character and experience of the the car. I am interested to hear what your service advisor says though. I will be at my dealer in the morning for the two flush treatments.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

These were the two videos I was reviewing this evening on the DCT transmissions.

George Knighton

Inching forward...that's on the electrics by themselves, usually, isn't it?

Being effectively in neutral at a stop explains the rolling on an incline. I guess we'll have to get used to that.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

Update:

I got the transmission and rear differential fluid flushed/replaced as well as my first set of wipers this morning. The technician said that it had not been changed previously (rear diff) as I was unsure. Somehow when I recently changed the oil I reset the B16 notice which was not correct. My mistake. It was only a few hundred miles ago so it is not a problem. The tech gave the car a thorough inspection and was surprised how little wear was measured on the brake pads. He said they measured almost brand new so that is further proof that the hybrid system is doing most of the heavy work, not that we were doubting it. Based on the wear he saw this morning, he thinks that it is completely reasonable to expect to not to have to change the pads/rotors for well past 150,000. Quite astonishing I think considering the car's weight. He tested the hybrid system and said that it is operating at factory specs. Everything else he said looks to be in "like new condition". Another customer was standing next to me while I was clearing my bill and asked if I am taking delivery of my new car from the service department? My service manager chimed in and said that I take exemplary care of my cars and that it actually has 33,000 miles on it. The customer was impressed.

My bill for everything was $301

Malibu Flyer

My experience is similar to George's. I only have 20,000 miles on my car and started noticing this new noise and hesitation about 2,000 miles ago. It seems to slowly be getting progressively more frequent. I haven't been able to get it to perform for the tech at the dealer. When I went in for my recent B 16 they said they did a software update that should fix the issue -- it hasn't. George, I will follow your experience closely to see what you learn.

BTW - when i took my car into the dealership [which recently changed ownership], the first thing the service advisor did was call out the head tech from the shop. He came out introduced himself. He told me he was the dedicated NSX tech and had been to Ohio and a track for NSX training. My dealer has sold 2 other Sport Hybrids so he had limited experience with the car. I will probably call him back to address two issues which didn't get properly fixed [ (1) center console lid - replaced with the same part as was on the car, not the new part number listed in the TSB and (2) the AcuraLink red light issue - they simply did a software update which had no impact and not the replacement noted in the TSB].

pgeorg

George - Malibu Flyer:

Does it do this in a specific gear, or continuously going through two-three gear? Thanks!

Malibu Flyer

Hard to properly answer since not sure what gear the car is in when it happens but my best guess is the transition from either 3rd to 4th or 4th to 5th. I only seems to happen on one gear change and then everything is smooth. It is not continuous, if you mean several consecutive gear shifts. It happens at one precise shift point under a particular set of load conditions. To the best of my recollection it can happen when doing moderate acceleration or when cruising along as say 50 mph and then ease off the gas [in an attempt to go into EV mode or just by traffic conditions] and then using the gas [if not in EV mode] to gradually go back to the 50 mph speed after having slowed down. It all happens quickly but is definitely noticeable. It is something new. The car is so quiet and smooth normally it sticks out like a sore thumb. I'm more concerned about what may be going on to cause this than the minor annoyance of it happening now. It is of particular concern since it is slowly becoming more frequent. I don't think it is just because I am listening for it actively now and trying to duplicate it to be able to recreate for the service folks.

Hope this answers the question.

pgeorg

Thank you! Yes it makes things much clearer......

I wonder if this has anything to do with the dual clutches that do the gear change, since it happens in an even or odd gear. Also i wonder if it has something to do with the VCM engaging and disengaging at the same time (50-60mph is VCM territory)........
I know this is a long shot, but have either of you noticed this when in Sport Mode? VCM is disabled in Sport Mode, so if the shifting is fine then, that could be it. If its the dual clutches, it would happen in both modes......

Malibu Flyer

Don't use sport mode enough to comment about whether it happens there or not. In regard to VCM, I am pretty sure in is engaged when I ease off the gas at 50 mph. I often do this in my daily commute where I have flat roads and pretty constant 45-55 driving speed. Don't think it is in VCM when moderately accelerating.

George Knighton

They were able to duplicate the issues, found two updates that appeared to be related.

Finishing up now and will report back after some driving.

pgeorg

Please let us know what the updates are for George. Thanks!

RLX-Sport Hybrid

When I was at the dealer on Monday they said there were no TSB or recalls available to do. Is that right?

fsmith

Remember that most TSBs (unlike recalls) are not mandatory and will only be offered if you have a complaint that is directly related to the problem that the TSB addresses.

George Knighton

The receipt that I walked out with doesn't have the references that the tech showed me.

The bill refers to a PGM-FI update and a "Cell Voltage Sensor Update."

Noise is still there.

Transmission shifts better, though.

Shift from 4 to 5 is a little hard. However, if you are driving the way that you would have to drive to provoke the previously reported problem, you are not going to mind that.

Will have to leave the car some day to troubleshoot the noise. They think it is mechanical and will take some poking around.

pgeorg

Thanks George! Do they think the noise is coming from the transmission?
Did you have the 4 to 5 hard shift before the updates, also?

George Knighton

They really don't know what the noise is. They want to hang onto the car for a while to figure it out.

The 4-5 shift under the conditions which would have previously provoked the problem is a unique, new feel.

Full throttle and light throttle, the shifts are fine.

It was misbehaving under enthusiastic, but not full throttle. You'd have to lighten up or put your clog down to get the shifts smoothed out.

pgeorg

So is the new 4 to 5 feel "hard shifting" as in the clutch is slipping and then it grabs, or it like there is a momentary delay in switching gears (pause) and then it engages?

I apologize for all the questions, but this is very interesting to me........ I am trying to see if the 4 to 5 hard shift (when it happens) is the same as in a conventional DCT......I am sure you would know.....

Thanks George.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

I think we should have an East Coast meet of SH owners so we can test drive each other's cars to see if we can sense any subtle driving differences between them. We could think of it as our own focus group and report back to Acura on it. If not we could just have an enjoyable meal.

George Knighton

I mean "hard," literally. It's just very sudden and more of a jarring event than other shifts.

4-5, I suppose, under the exact conditions that would have previously invoked the indecision, is difficult. The car's shifting to another shaft while also shifting to another gear, while also trying to be sure if the driver really means business with his "enthusiastic" but not "full" throttle input.

George Knighton

I dunno if they're interested any longer! LOL...

I think our cars are kind of a dead end, an experiment sold to enthusiasts. I'm sure they want to be sure we are happy with our cars, but I don't think the successor to this series Legend is going to have this transmission, even. I think this transmission might've been a one-off.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if the next Legend, if there is one at all, has an AT9 in non-hybrid or the DCT9 in hybrid form.

pgeorg

Oh! That does not sound very good........for the transmission or the driver:-(

George Knighton

Don't panic.

It's discernibly different than it was before, and discernibly different from the other shifts under that kind of throttle input.

It's hard to talk about it accurately without sounding like it's horrible, and it really is not.

It's just discernibly different, that's all.

At this point, I've only driven maybe 65 miles after the PGM-FI update. Who knows. Different humidity, different temperatures today...maybe it won't even happen today.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

GK, I don't think you said this yet but if you did I get the dummy award. What specific thing(s) did the service tech do? What can you share with us that we can tell our own service departments because I doubt they will know anything. I feel like we are the tips of the spear with our cars and we can't depend on our service departments to know as much as we do.

George Knighton

Okay. Well, first off, I showed up at the wrong dealership because the service manager with whom I had corresponded had moved to another dealership, and he thought I knew that. I didn't know that. LOL....

But I had also emailed the sales manager, and he informed service that I was coming.

The service writer grabbed a particular tech known for difficult things, and someone who'd evidently seen more SH-AWD Legends than my own. He mentioned that he had somebody driving there for service who lived in MD, because of how unusual the cars were.

I was able to duplicate both problems, thank goodness, while he was in the car listening for them. :-) He then took the car out himself.

Because it was the first visit, and I was not leaving the car, the first thing they wanted to do was look for any relevant updates. They found two, and wanted to try those updates before they did anything else.

One of the updates might have affected the shifting issue, so I agreed to try it for a while, and to bring it back to allow more in depth and lengthy troubleshooting of the noise, which they fear might be mechanical and take some time to find and fix.

So the only thing they've done so far is the two updates, one of which might have helped with the shifting problem. I haven't driven the car today because I'm stuck in my office at home for a while, it looks like, then have to go on a planned hike around the lake.

neuronbob

Given my experience, this I'm sure of. I'm a bit disappointed, honestly, but it is what it is. Very happy I leased this time round.

Here's hoping the next Legend is a success.

pgeorg

Not panicking George, i hope its just the update they applied doing this. Hard shifts are never good for any transmission, even if they are for a short while.....
I think now i understand what you mean when you say "hard" shift.

Thank you.

TampaRLX-SH

I believe Honda does not expect the LEGEND to be a high volume car. It would be a bonus if the market responded in that manner. As we have seen, as the flagship model is the test bed for new Honda tech. Honda has regularly offered quirky tech that did not catch on (though impressively engineered). I cite the 1st Accord Hybrid and the 1st insight (as early entries in the hybrid realm). It also reduces risk of a failure being widespread and exposing Honda's reputation to more customers. I see it as a 'dip a toe in the water' approach. What works is then refined and applied to models where it can have most impact, to reputation and recouping cost. I do not think Honda ever expects the LEGEND model to be a profitable car. If it were a high volume success, that could mean either: 1) Honda really found a feature that the market needed, is ready for and has not been exploited by other brands - or 2) the model is just a popular alternative to what is already out there (not offering new Honda engineering to the market). How many Honda features, when launched were met with lukewarm reception but were acclaimed when copied by other brands? Again in the hybrid realm the Insight preceded the Prius and the failed 1st Accord Hybrid tech is now commonplace in most hybrid offerings. I also agree with George that the 7DCT was a Proof of Concept on the LEGEND platform. Being a Honda designed and built tranny, a 'soft launch' into the marketplace was wise after a tranny failure reputation in the not so distant past. They have already developed higher gear DCT ( i.e. NSX) and will likely leapfrog the LEGEND's DCT as SH tech infiltrates the product line,

Where this becomes a constraint is the Acura RLX version. Acura is not a car engineering company and needs a higher volume flagship (and market respect). Acura needs a profitable car. Acura needs a car desired by more. The LEGEND development model may be intentionally restricting the model that Acura would like to see a sales success. Acura's primary investment to the brand differentiation from Honda is in styling. And we all know where some of that has lead. Acura cannot afford the test bed model that Honda accepts with the LEGEND.

If the Acura flagship is to be a success by USA standards, then it must become a model designed for the USA market and not a global market compromise with samplings of new features, The LEGEND is a product to see how the market reacts. An Acura flagship needs to be a model that RESPONDS to what the market demands. And perhaps a USA built model as well (joining all other Acura models, including the halo NSX.

If or when that happens, I think a LEGEND / RLX shared model will remain a boutique car.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

In my travels this morning I paid particular attention to the transmission to see if I could hear or feel any of the issues GK was referring to. I tried both EV and Sport modes, light throttle, moderate and heavy throttle inputs, and heard nothing notable, nor did I feel anything that was not butter smooth and very quick shifting as normal. I do have a minor rattle from time to time in my dash by the NAVI screen that I am trying to isolate, but that is it. In very light throttle applications, the DCT transmission is so fast and smooth, it almost feels like a CVT in its operation. That is the best analogy I can muster.

pgeorg

^^^
I tried all those combinations also, but felt and heard nothing. The only time there can be an abrupt shift, is when going really slow and the ICE turns on..... And that does not happen very often either.
Oh and the delay in shifting when trying to pass someone in EV mode, press the gas pedal to the floor, the engine revs high, and then a second later the car takes off......
Then again i only have 10,000 miles so far.....

RLX-Sport Hybrid

And if you are giving 100% throttle, you can't do it for more than a few seconds, or you will have a long conversation with the authorities. Occupational hazard I guess.

George Knighton

And now suddenly the steering wheel is squeaking.

LOL.... :-)

RLX-Sport Hybrid

Reservation for one please at the dealer.

neuronbob

I've been paying attention to odd transmission behavior this week in my SH, and have noted none. No odd sounds, either. I'll keep looking out, for George's sake.

pgeorg

Is it squeaking when you turn it, or when it moves in-out, up-down?

Wow George, you need one more to stop the bad luck......

:-)

George Knighton

In and out. :-)

fsmith

Now THAT should be easy to find and fix!

pgeorg

Here you go George..... http://www.urvi.net/forumfiles/SB/B14-031.PDF

TampaRLX-SH

"POSSIBLE CAUSES Premature wear of the steering column gearbox components."

Is it possible the sounds are from worn steering gear components? Does not electric steering respond variably to the speed in the turning ratios? Just a roll of the dice guess.

pgeorg

^^
I believe the RLX only has variable assist EPS, but not speed variable-ratio steering.