I'm starting this thread to find out how many other owners have experienced a annoying rumble and shudder that occurs around 1200-1500 rpm following a down shift at low power. I have heard that dealers say it's normal and that it seems to be associated with lockup of the torque converter. So, a few questions:

- Have you experienced this problem?
- Do you think it has gotten worse since you've owned your V6?
- Do you have anymore info on the cause?
- Have you heard anything about a fix?

 

Great idea!

1) Yes I have experienced the problem. It's part my daily routine.
2) Did not get worse but pretty much constant. Sometimes the muffler resonates with the vibration (dealer replaced the J-pipe but did not address the issue)
3) & 4): I suspect it occurs when the torque converter is in partial lock-up mode. Apparently some TLs are also affected. See this thread: https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-problems-fixes-297/vibration-grinding-1600-1800-rpms-792305/
Solution appears to be a replacement of the torque converter.

I also found out that a similar thing appears to affect some MDXs and ZDXs (I presume some people actually purchased ZDXs???).

See the following TSB: (You need to follow the procedure on the TSB Sticky post in order to be able to view it. http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/SB/B12-007.pdf
It involves a software update and an ATF replacement...

 

Thanks much for the info TSXV6GUY!

So, we have an official name for the problem and it appears that the "Judder" is a common issue with the 3.5 in the TL and V6. I also get the obnoxious muffler resonation. I don't detect any grinding as some of the TL guys mentioned though.

Have you asked your dealer to perform the recommended corrective action (update the PGM-FI or the A/T software) noted in the TB?

I'm going to call my dealer today and see what they have to say about it and update this thread.

 

The software updates don't appear to apply to our cars. My dealer checked last time and my car's software was up to date.

 

I noticed a slight reduction in the shudder when I replaced the transmission fluid with the new Honda DW-1.

Since we can only drain less than half of the fluid at each oil change, I intend to do 2 more changes in order to replace as much of the existing fluid as possible with the new type.

I guess the scarcity of the V6s makes it harder for systemic problems to show up in sufficient numbers that warrant a TSB...

 

- Have you experienced this problem?
Yes, though small prob it annoys the hell out of me. I also have ALOT of vibration around 1500 rpm. The thudder sound (sounds like something vibrating below the car) is sporadic a low rpm (1000-1500), vibrations occurs at 1000-2000 most and then throughout range

- Do you think it has gotten worse since you've owned your V6?
yes
- Do you have anymore info on the cause?
No but working on getting this fixed (will post when its done, relatively new car should not do this). And it's only getting worse
- Have you heard anything about a fix?
above

 

i think i finally know what you guys are talking about. i've experienced this twice or three times. what it felt like to me was that the engine rpm was at some perfect frequency to cause something that's loose in the engine bay to vibrate. i didn't really attribute it to the transmission, but i can see how it could be.

this only happened to me this past winter, but never in the winter before that. and i haven't experienced this recently. i'll start paying more attention if it happens again.

 

Update -

I can confirm that the shudder is reduced with a transmission fluid change. I did a 3x3 ATF change and used the new DW-1 fluid. (by 3x3 I mean drain/refill the ATF 3 times, with some driving in-between to mix old/new fluid).

The shudder was reduced after the first of these fluid changes, and I did not notice a further reduction when I did the 2 other replacements.

It is within the acceptable range for me. Now if only Acura engineers could examine the problem and come up with a solution (updated software?)...

 

My problem is getting worse. Not sure if it's the winter or just more miles but it is damn annoying now. I thought I could live with it but now it's pissing me off. Making an appointment ASAP before I'm off warrantee.

 

This happens to me as well, and I have an i4. It only seems to judder when in Drive or Reverse and at times the vibration causes a rattling noise. When I switch to Neutral or Park, the juddering disappears. So small yet sooooooo annoying!!

 

I have an appointment for next Wednesday and will update this thread with status. It will be interesting to see if they mention the "Judder" service bulletin.

 

From what I know, the service bulletin only applies to the TL and some MDXs I think. I took it in last month and they plugged it to check for any software update. Unfortunately, there was no software update.

I am pretty sure our cars are experiencing the same issue that the TLs. All it takes is a software update to tweak the PCM to reduce the use of partial lock up under certain conditions.

Is there anyone from Honda reading these forums?!

 

ok, i can officially say that i have this problem. it's really annoying, especially when i'm driving in traffic that keeps me in this nasty RPM range. i think i'll make an appointment with the dealer to check it out, if anything, to just get it in my service records.

if there's a tsb for the TL, i think we can get them to look into it for us if enough of us complain.

and not for nothing, if you guys have already gone to the dealer, i would contact acura corporate about it.

 

I agree, it's the same drivetrain so it must be the same issue.

You'd think they would have corrected the problem before using it in the TSX. It scares me to think that changing the tranny fluid makes a difference. I went through 2002 TL-S tranny hell and I'm not going there again. After owning 12 Acura/Hondas (10 manual shift), this could be the last. Based on my experience they don't know how to make a reliable automatic.

 

Went to the dealer and took a spin with the mechanic, one who was supposedly familiar with the TL "Judder" issue. The dealer is located in a congested area so it was difficult to reliably reproduce and sustain the vibration for any length of time during morning rush hour. When he drove it, the mechanic did say he felt a minor vibration but nothing to be "concerned" about. He said he has felt the TL judder and I was not experiencing it.

So, they noted it in my record and checked for loose components that might cause rattling due to the vibration. Guess I'll just have to wait until it gets really obnoxious.

 

So it seems that all the affected cars are 2010 V6s?

I don't think my 2011 does it but always drive with music playing.

Now I'm interested...is it anything like this?
(turn down the sound)

 

I haven't noticed anything like this happen to my 2011

 

maybe next time turn off the radio because i couldn't hear the engine at all. unhelpful

 

I picked up my '09 SH-AWD with 38k on the clock in late July. The next day, as I was still getting used to the car, I noticed this issue. It got to the point where it would do it at the same spot on the same road every day. I was able to see that it was the converter locking up maybe a bit too soon, running the engine at too low of an RPM. I figured there had to be some type of software update for this, which there ended up being. I took it in and had the update done, and the problem is 90% better. i still catch it briefly doing the same thing at times, but it is very seldom. Interesting to note, however, that in researching the vehicle's history from before I owned it, the torque converter was replaced under warranty for a "shudder" issue early in the car's life. This was obviously before the software update came out. Im mostly happy with the results.

 

I should clarify that the purpose of my post, considering it was regarding my TL, was that if the other models are having a similar issue, after enough problems reported, Honda will most likely issue a similar update or fix in the near future.

 

Out of curiosity any of you guys located in NJ? I've had this problem since I bought the car and it's really annoying. Took it to 2 dealers and they both were no help. I'll have to see if my car is up to date too.

 

too be clear, that's not my car.

 

Can't be just for V6's because I have an '09 i4 and it has the 'judder' when I'm stopped and in Drive. However, if I switch to Neutral while I'm stopped it goes up as the RPM's slightly move higher. So I'm guessing it's caused by a low rpm idle?

 

The "judder" affecting V6s appears to be due to the torque converter being in "partial lock-up" mode, which occurs when the vehicle is moving under light load. From what you describe, you're not experiencing this "judder", but probably have a dirty or malfunctioning EGR.

 

had the same problem, with occasional rattle at certain RPM's, especially in overdrive at light throttle. Dealer just told me today that my torque converter has to be replaced. The service manager heard the rattle and said "torque converter issue" straight off the bat.

 

I recently experienced the same issue as you with my 2012 4 cyl w/9k miles. It was quite confounding and worrisome as I thought the problem was with the transmission.

The rattle/shudder would never occur in the morning when the engine was cold. However, after driving for a bit of time, and getting the engine quite hot, I would park the car for say, 10 minutes. When I would restart the car the rattle would be present in park and when I shifted in to reverse or drive with the brake pedal depressed. And, as you said, never in neutral. It seemed that the sound originated from the back end. As I accelerated the sound would go away. On occasion, the rattle/shudder occur while stopped at a red light.

I NEVER experienced the rattle over, say, 5 mph. This is NOT the same issue that TVAC is experiencing.

I ultimately went to my mechanic. He put the car up on the rack and showed me that the left muffler was a bit loose. He told me that as the car heats-up a variety of metal parts expand in size and areas of tight clearance could be the culprit of the rattle/vibration. He emphasized how much the mufflers can expand and showed me the tight clearance above and on the sides of the muffler. You might want to have your mechanic take a look at your mufflers. For any variety of reasons, mufflers can become a bit loose.

Please let me know if this was any help.

Best of luck!

 

I took my V6 in for a second look at the problem, this time with the service manager driving and he acknowledged the issue. We both characterized it as similar to how it feels with a standard tranny lugging the engine prior to a downshift. We decided to try a flush with some fresh fluid, at my expence, which made very little improvement if any.

So, the next step would be a new torque converter. This is like 2002 TL hell all over again. Honda has not figured out how to make a reliable auto tranny and I'm not sure I want to go through this crap again. I think it might be time for a new non-Acura/Honda machine.

 

I had this issue as well in my 2010 v6. I did a 3x3 flush with the new DW-1 atf fluid(at roughly 57k miles) and the problem is no longer present. I am keeping an eye out for it again as I think dirty/old transmission fluid could be a source. I keep track of mileage and will note the next time the judder appears.

Before the flush, it would only appear when I was in auto, in low rpms(1100-1700), and 5th gear at low speeds(<45mph). With these conditions met, I would apply gentle throttle to slightly accelerate and the noise and vibration would happen. I think the torque converter is to blame. It seemed like the lockup wasn’t disengaging to allow the trans to downshift. The judder never occurred in sport mode or manual mode and the torque converter does not lock in these modes from what I understand. I should note that it never impaired the drive-ability of the car, maybe others have had it worse. I was always able to give it more throttle to force a downshift and carry on.

I tried to recreate the judder in manual sport mode by shifting to 5th while cruising at low rpms to simulate the exact same scenario with no lockup. No judder occurred. Maybe others could try this to isolate the trans. from the TC, curious to see others results with this test.

If anyone has more knowledge of the conditions for lock-up/honda TC operation please post. Part of me wonders if the TC is hitting a natural frequency and the torsional damping springs cannot cope or possibly slippage of the lock-up clutch.

 

It sounds like your problem is similar to mine except while yours only occurred in auto/5th mine occurs in auto/2nd-5th and the flush had no effect. I just made another appointment to drop it off for the whole day. Acura said they will be contacting Arizona Level 1 support.

 

tvac, sorry to hear that. Does indeed sound like hell...tranny trouble's a bitch. Hope it all works out and keep us posted. Was your flush a 3x3?

I found this snippit on the operation of the lock-up. Your problem could still be linked to the TC. Still no written info yet on the specific lock-up condition in sport mode.
"ACTIVE LOCKUP TORQUE CONVERTER
To provide good fuel economy while maintaining a high level of drivability, the 5-speed automatic transmission includes an active lockup torque converter. With the precise control afforded by a linear solenoid and assist spring, the system features a wide range of speed and throttle settings in which lockup can be engaged in the top four gears. This results in excellent fuel economy in both city and highway driving."

 

I think the shudder occurs when the TC get in "partial lock-up" mode. In my case, a 3x3 flush with DW-1 improved significantly the situation, but it came back about 10 to 15K km later. I will do another flush (just once though) when the weather is better to see if it makes a difference.

This also affects certain late model TLs and Acura issued a PCM update to minimize the situation. The issue with the TSX V6 is that there are not too many of them out there and therefore it gets less attention from Acura.

Hopefully someone will end up putting together an update for our cars!

 

could we get a little more technical on how this lockup works? anyone with tech docs from acura?

 

Here's a pic of the Acura service manual describing the partial lock-up mode. (Sorry for the crappy cell phone pic).

 

hmm interesting. thanks for the pic. is there any data in regards to the programmed thresholds for going into this partial lock-up mode? ie, what rpm, speed, throttle input parameters will cause this condition?

 

Excellent question... I wasn't able to find anything.

I am pretty sure that this type of stuff is reserved to the factory engineers (it's even off-limits to the dealers, I think - The only thing the dealers can do is flash the PCM with the "approved" version of the software based on the car's serial number).

 

But... this doesn't only happen to the V6. I get the shudder & rumble in my 09 i4 as well.