meadowblaster

Hello, I recently tackled a timing belt/waterpump and plugs and valve adjustment on my 2003 TL-S. I posted an issue I had earlier with accidentally turning the crank without turning the cams. I still had the belt on, but I mistakingly pulled the key out of the keyway which locks the pulley and timing belt gear to the crankshaft. I put the bolt back in the crank to turn the motor over to TDC before pulling the belt off, but since I had taken the key out, the timing belt gear was no longer hooked to the crank so I only turned the crank. I turned it about a turn, I think, before I realized what I did. I adjusted the cams to TDC while the belt was on to keep them in time with each other then took the belt off and put the crank to TDC. I pulled all of the plugs and checked that the #1 cylinder (rear bank, furthest cylinder to the passenger side. was truly at TDC to make sure I did not have the crank a turn off. I went ahead and continued on with the water pump and new belt and tensioner. I put it all together, turned the motor over by hand, everything seemed fine. I then moved on to a valve adjustment. All of the valves were fairly close, within a couple thousandths of spec. I was worried originally of possibly damaging valves by turning the crank by itself and contacting a piston and valve, but after doing the valve adjustment, i figured if I had a bent valve, it would not close fully and they would be more than .002 off. I cleaned the intake, EGR ports, throttle body, and put everything back together. When I try to tart the motor, it cranks, tries to fire sometime, pops and backfires through the intake. I am used to working on small block fords and it is acting like its way off timing, like if you get the distributor a tooth off when installing it. Where should I start looking? Tonight I am going to pull the rubber plugs on the timing cover and double check that it is all still in line. One thing I thought of was the washer with teeth behind the timing belt pulley on the crank, that the crank position sensor reads. Is this attached to the timing belt gear or is there a chance that when I put the key in, I didn't get it in far enough to mesh with that washer and it isn't turning, so I wouldn't be getting a proper crank position reading?
Thanks in advance for the help.

rcb2000

rule number one, get the engine at TDC on the compression stroke before you dick with the timing belt. You screwed yourself, now you need to take eveything back apart and do the job correctly, how the hell you ever got the keyway out with out removing the pully beats the hell out of me.

good luck

meadowblaster

Thanks RCB. I think I overlooked an important factor. I made sure that I was at TDC but didn't check to make sure I was on the compression stroke. I will go home and pull the #1 plug and put my finger over the hole and see if I am on the compression stroke. I bet I am a half a turn off on the crank. One last question. If I am indeed off, which I am sure I am, My valve adjustment job should still be ok right? I adjusted them all with the piston at TDC, even though it was possibly on the wrong stroke, I should still be correct with my adjustment since it was still at TDC. Is my logic correct? I would rather not have to pull the intake and valve covers again, timing belt is hopefully all.

acutee

Remove spark plug #1, drop a long stick down, it will rest on the valve, hand turn the crankshaft until your stick is at the highest point, that is your tdc. Now, make sure your crank pulley and other pulleys line up at the right marks.

TLer trash

There's something missing or wrong in the info you've provided. If the valves were only off by .002" or so when you adjusted them, you had to be at tdc on compression. Tdc on exhaust has the intake and exhaust valves open a little, so you would have had to loosen them up to get any clearance.
Are you sure the crank moved without the crank gear? The reason I ask is that the key that typically falls off on hondas only affects the crank pulley.
I can't remember, but I think the crank trigger can move if the crank gear is not secure. This would throw your spark timing off.

meadowblaster

The vlaves were definitley off only slightly. The exhaust valves wereabout .001 tighter than speck, the intakes were about .002 loose. I wondered about the crank trigger as well. I am going to check if I am on the compression stroke now and post my results

meadowblaster

I just pulled the spark plugs out and the timing belt covers off. All my marks are still right on. I had my wife turning the motor at the crank while i put my thumb over each spark plug hole and I am definitely on TDC on the compression stroke so it is timed correctly. Any ideas what to check next? How do I check if the crank trigger is off or not?

meadowblaster

I went ahead and pulled the timing belt back off and removed the timing belt gear from the crank, to check the crank trigger piece on the back of the pulley. It is all one piece so there isn't a way that it could have gotten off, unless the sensor itself somehow went bad. I did clean eveything with carb cleaner while it was apart, but I wouldn't think that would damage it. Anyone have another idea what to look for?

meadowblaster

After I checked everything out last night and it all checked out fine, I quit. Tonight I decided I would put it all back together before I took it to a shop to get it looked at. I put the plugs and coils back in, crank pulley back on, no accesory belts or timing cover on yet and my overly optimistic wife thought I should try again. It fired right up and ran perfectly!!! The only ting I can think is the crank position sensor was reading falsely for some reason, and pulling it off and putting it back on did something. I don't know what but it runs great now. I put everything else back on tonight. I just need to put the plastic inner fender and wheel back on and take it off the jack stands and bleed the air from the cooling system tomorrow. It's frustrating not knowing what I fixed but I sure am happy that it is fixed! Thanks to everyone for the advice.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

^ Good to hear that you sorted it out. So, how did you eventually sort out the the dilemma of accidentally turning the crankshaft without the key in the keyway to drive the TB drive gear, thus the TB belt?

meadowblaster

I removed the belt and manually turned the cams and crank to line up all the marks. I made sure that I was on the compression stroke on TDC on cylinder #1 when I set the crank. I then put the new timing belt on. Still trying to figure out what caused it to be seemingly out of time when it was all correct. I did break a cheap Harbor Freight breaker bar while removing the crank pulley so maybe a little flake of chrome from that got behind the crank position sensor and was giving it a false reading. It looks like some sort of magnet that reads the ring behind the crank gear so if a little piece of metal got in there it could cause an incorrect reading making it fire the plugs at the wrong time. When I took that sensor off and put it back on it is reading correct now.Don't really know, but that is the only thing I can think of.

meadowblaster

Oh, by the way, I haven't driven it yet, only idling in the garage, but the valve adjustment and new plugs makes it idle and sound much smoother than before, and I thought it idled fine before. Can't wait to drive it!

rcb2000

it's called a hall effect sensor and no a piece of chrome isn't going to effect it sense there isn't anything for it to stick to and one revolution would have thown the chip off anyway. the issue was you didn't have the timing wheel located properly or the CPS was mounted incorrectly causing a timing issue.

meadowblaster

The timing wheel is attached to the timing belt gear which is attached to the crank with a key in a key way so there is no way to get it off, and there is only one way to put the sensor on as well, one locating pin and a single bolt holding it on. I don't know what the problem was, but I guarantee it is all in the same position as it was when it wouldn't run.

TLer trash

It's not a hall effect sensor. Not enough wires, no transistor, etc.

rcb2000

so it doesn"t have two wires coming out of the sensor? it doesn't have a powdered metal timing wheel that is a series of notches that passes a window in front of the sensor? or does it?

TLer trash

Yes it does have two wires like any other magnetic pick up. I don't know if the timing wheel is powdered metal, wouldn't matter if it were a hall effect. But it does not have three wires, a transistor, or the power supply that a hall effect sensor does.

rcb2000

I guess we've been designing them wrong for all these years then or your just full of shit and don't know any better.



A Hall effect sensor is a transducer that varies its output voltage in response to changes in magnetic field. Hall sensors are used for proximity switching, positioning, speed detection, and current sensing applications.

In its simplest form, the sensor operates as an analogue transducer, directly returning a voltage. With a known magnetic field, its distance from the Hall plate can be determined. Using groups of sensors, the relative position of the magnet can be deduced.

Electricity carried through a conductor will produce a magnetic field that varies with current, and a Hall sensor can be used to measure the current without interrupting the circuit. Typically, the sensor is integrated with a wound core or permanent magnet that surrounds the conductor to be measured.

Frequently, a Hall sensor is combined with circuitry that allows the device to act in a digital (on/off) mode, and may be called a switch in this configuration. Commonly seen in industrial applications such as the pictured pneumatic cylinder, they are also used in consumer equipment; for example some computer printers use them to detect missing paper and open covers. When high reliability is required, they are used in keyboards



Hall sensors are commonly used to time the speed of wheels and shafts, such as for internal combustion engine ignition timing, tachometers and anti-lock braking systems

TLer trash

Wiki "hall effect", instead of "hall effect sensor", go down about 3/4s of the way to "automotive ignition and fuel injection". This gives a pretty good description of what I was trying to explain.

rcb2000

No I know exactly what it is called and exactly what is internal to the sensor used for timing an engine's ignition system. After all isn't that what we are talking about? the Car's iginition system and the way it reads the timing of the crank and/or cam position?

Now if you would like a lesson on how to design an ignition system I can help you out and if you wouldl like to see one of the systems I've designed, look under the hood of a GM vehicle or go to the Indianapolis Motor speedway Museum and check out the CD system I did for the Ilmore engine if you would like to see.

SO YES THE SENSOR IS A FUCKING HALL EFFECT SENSOR, might not be what your used to seeing but regardless it is STILL A HALL EFFECT SENSOR. same type of sensor used in ABS simple magnetic coil around a ferit core potted in epoxy.