Domenic Ricci

CAR DETAILS

2000 Acura TL 6cylinder
177,000 Miles
Original Engine w/ no modifications; Rebuilt Transmission at 175,000 miles

SINCE CAR WAS PURCHASED w/ 150K miles

1. Always 93 Octane Gas
2. Always Full Synthetic Oil Changes
3. Roundtrip from Delaware to South Carolina; multiple roundtrips from Delaware to Pennsylvania & New Jersey (without issue)
4. Well maintained & cared for (multiple transmission fluid changes, even though transmission failed at 175k miles)

PROBLEM

Car will run great/strong/smooth with no misfiring, car will run PERFECTLY.........and then.............
1. Following a drive and when car is at full operating temperature, when car is in park and in idle, after about 30-45 minutes, car will shake and misfire and throw multiple misfire codes as well as 1399 code, TCS light, and blinking then solid Check Engine Light. Car will then misfire at a higher level and eventually stalls at times.
2. Following a drive and when car reaches full operating temperature, after reaching destination car is turned off - When car is then restarted, car will experience same symptoms as #1 above, and often will not start at all. When car does not start at all, it may not restart until approximately 15-45 minutes.
3. Following #2 above, car will need to be "revved" and held at a 3-4 RPM and continually revved until car remains running and idle maintained. Then, when car is driven, a noticeable misfire is experienced.
4. Notable: Besides #1-#3, car has exhaust leak (noticeable "putter" and emissions odor)

MYSTERY
Car will run great....long or short trips....run strong with no miss and plenty of horsepower....then out of nowhere, the above. Problem first started over 1 year ago, then never resurfaced, then resurfaced sometimes, and lately has occurred more often than not.

WHAT HAVE I DONE/REPLACED SO FAR
1. Fuel Pump Relay Switch (aftermarket)
2. Engine Coolant Temp Sensor (aftermarket)
3. Idle Air Control Valve (aftermarket)
4. Throttle Body/Plate Cleaning
5. EGR Ports (6) Cleaning
6. Six Ignition Coils (aftermarket)
7. Six Spark Plugs (iridium)
8. Brought car to Acura Service Center and was told: Replace Fuel Pressure Regulator and Replace fuel injectors (Acura said fuel injectors should not initiate a Check Engine Light, even though a small miss is detected)
9. Fuel Pressure Regulator (Acura part)

REPLACEMENT PARTS/FIX SCHEDULED FOR TOMORROW (mechanic of 15+ years, not Acura Service Center)
1. EGR Valve (aftermarket)
2. Both Oxygen Sensors (aftermarket)
3. Exhaust Repair

REPLACEMENT PARTS/FIX WITHIN 90 DAYS
1. Timing Belt (kit to include water pump) (Unsure when/if Timing Belt was replaced)

CONTEMPLATING
1. Catalytic Converter (aftermarket)
2. Fuel Pump (aftermarket)
3. MAP Sensor (aftermarket)

HAVE BEEN TOLD/READ
1. Vapor Lock - one mechanic said it is not Vapor Lock; reviewing other posts suggest Vapor Lock

THOUGHTS
I do not believe the problem is Vapor Lock; would not be surprised if problem is related to Fuel Pump or fuel sending. (although could be the problem, obviously)
I do not believe the valves need to be adjusted. (although could be the problem, obviously)
Would be mildly surprised if problem is related to bad fuel injectors (why would car run perfectly, usually?), although if I replace all six fuel injectors it will be with aftermarket injectors due to price. (although could be the problem, obviously)

I am running out of ideas and my mechanic has told me to leave the car with him all day, so that the problems are duplicated and diagnostics can be performed. I have more confidence in my mechanic versus local Acura Service Center.
I have read multiple posts regarding these problems, however I am having trouble finding the ultimate resolution or find the ultimate resolutions to be varied or include the fixes I already completed.

I thank you for your input and experiences, and recommendations.

Chojun

Since your car is a 2000, I believe you might do well to replace the fuel pressure regulator. I believe for this model year a new ECU is required along with that, which unfortunately is spendy. Do some more research on this forum for confirmation.

Domenic Ricci

Thank you.

I replaced the Fuel Pressure Regulator a few weeks ago.

Yesterday, I drove my car to the mechanic, started up and drove without issues. When I turned car off at mechanic, I had a hard time restarting it.
My mechanic replaced my flex pipe and both O2 sensors. He told me that my problem is bad fuel injectors. When I had the restart problem, my check engine light came on with codes Misfire Cyl 1, 2, and 4.
My mechanic says the fuel injectors are the next step and he is confident that will resolve the issue.
I ordered re-manufactured Honda injections and will have them installed ASAP. I will provide an update.

Any other thoughts are appreciated.

Thank you!

Arkady

Hey these are very similar to what my car experiences! I'm looking forward to hearing if the fuel injectors do the trick - I've been eyeing my Air Intake Control Valve for the issue with it not wanting to idle sometimes, have you had any one look at that on yours?

01acls

Use a Black Dot FPR and the corresponding 2001 ECM (used) for your model. TLP- Navigation/non-navigation will ensure the ECM is compatible. The ECM will need to be reprogram by the Dealership to match your keys.

Domenic Ricci

Idle Air Valve replaced, as described in original post. Problem is still ongoing. Thanks!

Domenic Ricci

Do you feel there is a problem with the ECU? I do not have experience or knowledge of ECU issues. Appreciate your thoughts behind this being a possible culprit.

Domenic Ricci

4/9/18 UPDATE

Fuel Injectors and Timing Belt Kit has arrived in mail. Both will be handled this week by my mechanic. Really hoping the injectors do the trick. Thanks!

01acls

If you're not using the black dot FPR, then your fuel pressure is too low, hence the vaporlock. If that is the case then you need the updated ECM to go with the higher fuel pressure of the updated FPR.

​​​​​​What is your car's VIN number?

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

Check your engine grounds.

Domenic Ricci

Thank you for the reply - appreciated.

I am very ignorant on matters to do with the ECM and I honestly do not know what a black dot FPR is/does. :o)
I am also not sure what the original owner replaced on the car and I am not sure how to check.
To answer your question: VIN 19UUA5660YA011658

Thank you very much! I look forward to your reply/education.

Domenic Ricci

Engine grounds? Never thought about that. This weekend car ran great, but when it was sitting in idle too long, it started to shake and misfire so I turned it off. Then, it had trouble starting again.
Anyway.....I am also ignorant on matters to do with engine grounds and I am not sure how to check this?
Thank you for your reply and look forward to other replies you send.

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

Grounds are simple & over looked all the time. A semi faulty ground can cause sporadic behaviour.

All you need to do is locate the grounds (should be 4), unbolt them, sand down the contact points & re-tighten.

Worth a shot.

Domenic Ricci

I am glad to try anything at this point! Believe me. Now.......I will have the mechanic on Thursday check the grounds when he does the injectors/timing belt job. Thanks & stay tuned!

Chojun

The Fuel Pressure Regulator is right behind/below the intake manifold and connects to the fuel rails. If you pull off the plastic engine cover you'll be able to see it better. If the top of the regulator doesn't have a black dot on it then you have the old one. You'll need a new FPR and a corresponding ECU.

The ECU is just a piece of solid-state electronics so if your electrical system is good then it more than likely isn't going to be bad.

Pair of TLs

I sure hope the injectors fixes everything!

Wondering why 93 octane?

Domenic Ricci

I recently purchased the Fuel Pressure Regulator off Ebay (not sure if the following link works)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Hon...72.m2749.l2649

I will see if the black dot is on top of the regulator. Hoping it does have a dot since the part was recently purchased as new, and based on the diagnostics performed by Acura.

Domenic Ricci

Thanks - I hope it fixes everything too!
93 Octane because the fuel door says "premium fuel only" and my mechanic bitches at me if I use cheap gas. Believe me, at $3.30 a gallon, I wish the 87 was ok (maybe it is).

Chojun

This has been covered before in other threads but the short answer is that we have high-compression engines and the 91/93 AKI/Octane is required to prevent detonation. The ECU can compensate timing to a point because of the knock sensor but there are downstream consequences to not using the proper grade fuel over time. The most highly suspected consequence is a clogged EGR system which, if you can't clean yourself, will cost more in the long run to fix than using the proper fuel.

01acls

Your VIN is one of the 52,000+ cars listed as having the hot start issue. Check your original FPR for the black dot. If it's not then you need to update the FPR/ECM. Don't waste your time with the new injectors until after you update the FPR/ECM.

Domenic Ricci

A few weeks ago I replaced the FPR. I purchased it on eBay and it was listed as a new FPR original Honda part. It arrived in Honda packaging. Is it safe to assume that part was the updated corrected version? I guess I need to check if there is the black dot. If it IS the updated and corrected FPR, why is the problem still occurring? Maybe because I need an updated ECM? And last question......where would I purchase a new ECM? Any recommendations. I am NOT going to spend a $1,000 on an ECM - I rather get rid of the car at that point. Thanks. Appreciate your review and reply!

Domenic Ricci

what is the proper fuel to use? Thanks!

01acls

Any premium fuel will do bc premium fuel should be high octane... Where I am it's 91.

Just keep it simple, check for a black dot FPR. Preferably the original before it was replaced by you bc that may indicate you are already updated with the FPR/ECM.

Check your current FPR now for black dot. If not replace accordingly.

The car will run with mismatched black dot FPR and original ECM (incorrect) but will run rich during cold starts. That's possible a serious problem, could damage the cat (meow) on the exhaust system in the long run. The car will idle very rough, shaking the streering wheel.

You can source an used ECM for less than a $100... Salvage yard.

Domenic Ricci

ok thanks. I will check for black dot on Thursday. Hoping it only needs injectors! Ha!

also if it needs a black dot FPR and salvage ECM......wouldn't a salvage ECM also be original or incorrect? Wouldn't I need a newer ECM?

01acls

Yes, but only if you get the wrong ECM... Early 2000 ecms. That's why I said to get a 2001 ECM.

Domenic Ricci

Really hoping it doesn't need an ECM or have that vapor lock problem. Idk. It seemed to do better after I replaced the FPR but as I said, its not 100%.
Mechanic swears up and down it is injectors since the same engine light codes keep happening (misfire cyl 1, 2, 4).

Question: I imagine if I need to get a used ECM, I need to carefully cross reference the VIN, to ensure I get the right part?
A replacement ECM requires a trip to Acura so they may reprogram the ECM?

Thank you!

thoiboi

have you tried oem coils? what coils did you get?

Domenic Ricci

Great question: I used aftermarket coils. Purchased them on Amazon. Seller had excellent feedback and the coils he was selling had several outstanding reviews. I realize I took a chance there. So far, so good.

I am starting to get more and more concerned that it is ECM. Although.....salvage part probably $50-$100.....I dont think my mechanic would kill me with labor. I am wondering if it would need to go to Acura to be "programmed" or is it kinda "plug and play"? I also wonder if Acura can diagnose a bad ECM via testing and diagnostics? Although....if injectors (and everything else I have done) do not fix this issue...I think ECM is last option/item to replace.

01acls

Yes, ECM needs to be reprogram by the dealer. Easy way to tell if you have the correct ECM is to check the FPR for a black dot on the salvage car or check the car's manufacturer date of XX/2001.

ECM is located to the right of the gas pedal... Behind the center console. Accessible from both sides... 2 bolts and 4 plugs.

You can actually pull them both yourself at the salvage yard. Very easy, about a half-hour to a hour of removal time. Probably a $100 total for both parts from a U-pull It or something similar in your area.

$200+/- to reprogram ECM.

DONE DEAL.

The misfire codes are false. Trigger by the vapor lock, not an injector problem. It's misfiring because there are vapors in the fuel system so not getting continuous fuel... Triggering the "Misfire code".

01acls

It's not coils. If it was it would misfire all the time.

Your ECM is not bad. It's just not made to operate with the black dot ECM. The updated FPR raises the fuel pressure to prevent vapor lock.

Domenic Ricci

Thanks alot 01acls - good info and I appreciate your replies.

Sorry for my confusion at times. Ok so......a month ago, Acura told me I needed a new FPR, but it was too expensive there, so I purchased a new Acura/Honda FPR via Ebay. I installed the part easily.

Are you saying I should go check to see if it has the black dot on it?
If it has a black dot, is that good or bad?
I assumed since the part was new, it would be the proper/updated FPR?
So...my problem isnt the new FPR I purchased or the ECM? My problem is.....its the mismatch of the two?

Interesting that you mention fuel pressure prevents the vapor lock. Problem occurs on hot start and when car is idling in park for 30 minutes. But.....when I give it gas and hold the RPM, it gets better (maybe sending more fuel pressure)?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

yes, check to see if it has a black dot/sticker/mark.
if it does have the black mark, it's the new updated FPR, which will need a new updated ECM

yes, your problem from what I gather is a mismatch of the two, if FPR has the black dot.

Domenic Ricci

See pics. FPR has the black dot, if I am seeing correctly. (I wonder if my old one had a black dot).

And what you are saying is: Vapor Lock fix was updated FPR (black dot). However, it also means it was required to update ECM? So as of now, I have updated FPR, but not updated ECM.

Ok, so based on the above, I need an updated ECM. My concern is, when I get it from Ebay or junk yard, how do I know I am getting an "updated" ECM? I am kinda ignorant and do not know what to look for, and appreciate your expertise.

Am I driving you crazy yet?

Domenic Ricci

My other question would be, considering Acura is NOT installing the updated ECM, would it be possible to drive the car from my mechanic to the Acura dealer?

01acls

LOL. What we have here is a failure to communicate. You're asking the same questions that I've already answered.

Acura​​... Acura wouldn't just install the B D FPR in lew of a non B D FPR. Acure would install both B D FPR and ECM as a unit/kit... $1500-$2000 unless your car already had a B D FPR. It would be a given if a car had a B D FPR then the car was updated with the new ECM also. Unless the owner toke it upon itself to only change the FPR.

The Dealership wouldn't mix match the two. Likewise, the owner of the car would not accept a car that idles like a diesel.

So that's the correct B D FPR in your pic.

The question now is was your old FPR the same... Also a B D FPR or not? If it was then I would guess that you already have an updated ECM but only you can answer that question.

Are you the original owner of the car? Meaning do you know the full car's history? Especially, the early years? How long have you had this problem or the car? And LOL, why didn't you disclose the dealership diagnosis and price before?

You're l o n g w i n d e d but not when it comes to the history of your car or relevant information. LOL.

Since you can drive the car now then you can drive the car to the dealership with the replacement ECM.

The misfiring after idling for half hour is new info to me. That's not consistent with vapor lock.

Domenic Ricci

I certainly thank you for your patience. Your expertise is very helpful to me.

Car has 175k miles. I purchased it with 150k miles. I know nothing of the history of the car, or previous owner, although the car was in mint condition outside and in, which leads me to believe it was well cared for. It also ran beautifully (if often runs beautifully without issue, which is weird in itself). I have had this problem for over a year, although very intermittent and would disappear for months at a time. The last 30-60 days it is happened almost every time on hot start/idling hot.

I believe the FPR that I removed from the car, did NOT have a black dot on it. This same problem happened prior to me installing the black dot FPR.

The last diagnosis provided by Acura is provided in original post. They said I needed a new FPR and fuel injectors. They did not mention ECM at all. They knew I was going to replace the FPR on my own as I will not pay their prices. Acura will NOT be installing the ECM if I need to replace the ECM.

Sorry about the dumb question regarding the ability to drive the car immediately following the replacement of the ECM. I thought since it needed to be programmed by Acura, that the replacement ECM would not allow the car to start or run correctly. My concern was driving the car from my mechanic in Pennsylvania to Acura in Delaware (home).

It seems like this is a toss up between injectors versus ECM not matching FPR. Some folks are saying injectors, some are saying ECM. I have replacement fuel injectors in my possession that are scheduled to be replaced on Thursday, along with the timing belt (kit). My fear was that after doing this work on Thursday, if the problem still occurs, I was probably going to want to drink bleach or jump off my deck. LOL!!

Thank you VERY much. Seriously....I do appreciate all you are doing for me.

Pair of TLs

I'm waiting for Thursday report.

Pair of TLs

I agree with your mechanic. FWIW

Domenic Ricci

I will definitely provide the update and HOPE it is fuel injectors!

01acls

Q: With the new B D FPR now in your car... When you start the car with a totally cold engine. How does the car idle... Smooth/normal or rough/very rough?

FYI: Vapor lock in the TL/CL usually happens during changes in Seasons. Meaning change in gasoline from somer blend to winter blend and visa versa. Hence, it appears to be an intermittent issue but it's not.