Mac user here!

 

RL owner and long-time Mac user. I'm also in I.T. and actually have had both PC and Mac at home (and worked with them professionally) for over a decade. I MUCH prefer the Mac over the PC. It is far better than the PC IMHO. I generally keep both fairly up-to-date (about every 18 months or so...).

As for legacy support...the gentleman that was talking about how Apple kills off the older stuff every time a new release comes out... I have no idea what you're talking about. I know Apple has always been backwards compatible and the same is definitely not true with Windows - at least not to the same degree.

At some point you have to ween folks off the ancient stuff just so technology can move forward. Apple was the first computer manufacturer to sell their machines without a floppy drive (the iMac in 1998). Why? Because it didn't make sense to have one. It is a very old technology, slow as can be, and doesn't hold much. Blank CDs were at a point that they were almost as cheap as floppy disks and storage prices were rapidly declining. The general population screamed and thought it was crazy because they had so much stuff stored on floppy disks. Within a few years, Dell and Sony jumped onboard and now they charge you to add that capability. Some companies still ship with them in there but why?? Why not ship a cheap USB jump drive or something?? Anyway, Apple is an innovator and produces quality products. I'm sure there are examples of Apple lemons or bad service but they are the rarity and not near the percentage as would be compared to say a Dell or HP.

Most of the great reliability afforded Apple is due to their control of the hardware and software (OS). This is an area where the PC is at a great disadvantage.


--Josh

 

I am still running Claris CAD on my G5 tower using OS9 Classic mode. I think Claris CAD was initially released in the late 80s. If I switch to an Intel Mac I will need to transfer the files to another graphics program, but that is a pretty long run from a BWC standpoint (ie, 18 years). I also have a speaker design program I run in Classic mode that was published in the early 90s. As for programs I need that are not available on the Mac platform, I have found very few that I actually use that do not have direct or indirect equivalents in OS X or OS9, and that includes technically-oriented programs such as Mathematica and graphics programs such as Vectorworks and ArchiCAD (all are cross-platform compatible). From a sheer numbers standpoint, there are more programs available for Windows machines, but that is usually irrelevant to the typical user since most people use a small number of programs on a regular basis. If there are 10k apps available but one only uses 10 of them (and they are the same 10 that are available on the Mac or Unix), who cares how many are on the market? Again, I am a regular user of both OSes (XP at work and OS X at home), and the actual differences I see and deal with daily have nothing to do with BWC or lack of program titles.

 

Yup Mac for the last 14 years! Started with an LCII!

 

nope. really can't stand the mac. a gimmick to get someone to pay 2 grand for a notebook

 

Funny, people say that about the RL and SH-AWD, "SH-AWD is a gimmick to get someone to pay $50K on a Honda."

 

isnt that what they used to say about the quattro... just a a gimmick to get people to pony up for an over dressed VW?

 

Yea, but there is no real advantage of a Mac. It's just looks better...and has fancier colors and names. Otherwise, it's the same crap.

 

And is far less prone to virii and has fewer driver conflict/crashes and . . .

 

Since my last Dell cost me about $329, I can live with those minor things. Sorr

 

Ya know, I don't know why anybody would spend money on an Acura or BMW or Lexus, because you can get a Kia for $13,000, and it'll get you from point A to point B... Sure, it doesn't accelerate or handle too well... but all that styling and safety and performance and wood and leather and extra horsepower is just a gimmick to get someone to spend $50K on a car... I mean, i can live without all that stuff since my car only cost $13,000....

/sarcasm

 

Jftjr is funny!

 

My wife purchased a macbook pro yesterday and had me install bootcamp and windows xp on it. I felt dirty doing that to a mac but I was amazed at how fast windows is on that thing. She's new to mac os and doesn't have photoshop, dreamweaver, etc etc for mac yet so she wanted to be able to install and use them on the new machine until she can buy new software. I was very impressed with the packaging, contents, presentation etc with it. I really dig apple hardware and how much time they seem to put into the little details. Now hopefully she will actually learn to use it and I can wipe that windows partition.

 

You know, I can't wait until there is a mature virtualization product ready. Once that is available (and I know there are betas in progress now), then I'll have to run out and get an Intel-based Mac. In the meantime, I'm holding on to my 2-year-old, 12 inch PowerBook G4.


Please let me know how the BootCamp adverntures go!

 

I've had to restrain myself at least three times in the past month from buying a MacBook Pro. I have no *need* for it yet, my Macs are all fine, they run great.... but dammit, that thing is just SEXY.... and then they throw BootCamp out there...

However, as soon as someone puts out an affordable HDTV tuner for the Mac, I'm buying an Intel Mini in a heartbeat, and replacing my TiVo with it.

 

Hell, I was at MacWorld when they debuted the Mac Book Pro. Talk about some excited geeks! Wow!

 

Sounds like some Mac users have Stockholm syndrome. There used to be some very real and valid reasons for choosing a Mac over a Windows machine. I don't see any 'must have' that a Mac brings to the table.

And using a Windows machine is not quite like driving a Kia. Maybe it's like driving an Acura when others are driving a Mercedes but that's okay with me.

 

It depends on how you define "valid reasons." I think that a lack of spyware is a valid reason. I also think that the iLife suite of software is a valid reason. Sometimes it isn't the "what" but the "how." That even applies to Acuras. I chose the RL over the Infiniti M because of how the RL implemented technology such as the navigation system and DVD-Audio. I guess it is about the details.

 

Few people write viruses for the Mac because it's not worth it due to the small market share. Now that you can run Windows on the Mac I'm sure this will change. But I can count on one hand the virus problems I've had on my Window machine although I do have to pay attention to this.

I'm sure iLife is a great program and maybe for the small people who use it this is a 'must have' but I'm talking about on a macro scale.

And DVD-A is a neat format but has a smaller market share than Apple.

Again... even 5 years ago the Mac did have great things about it. I'm just saying that today it's not worth the price premium. But, to each their own and the world is probably better with Apple around than not. So props to them.

 

For one thing, are you sure there is a price premium? The prices are quite similar when you do a feature-by-feature comparison. Also, market share is only part of the reason why there are so few viruses and other malware for the Mac. Mac OS X's Unix foundation is another factor, as it the fact that it is much harder to gain root access on Mac OS X (and other Unix-derived operating systems).

And you mention that "5 years ago the Mac did have great things about it." What changed since 2001, other than Mac OS X becoming more refined and them changing over to more energy-efficient Intel Core microprocessors? For that matter, what has happened in the Windows world in the past 5 years? Microsoft has clearly stagnated when it comes to both Windows and Internet Explorer (which is why I use FireFox on Windows). They're doing some really cool things with SQL Server 2005, though.

Regarding DVD-A, that was just an example I used. MP3s would be a better example, the Lexus GS and Mercedes E-class did not support MP3s at all when I was car shopping, which were major disadvantages for me. What a like about the RL was HOW it impletemented their audio system is a such a way that you could put DVD-Audio, MP3 and regular compact discs into the same changer. To my knowledge, the RL is the only car in its class with that feature as standard equipment.

 

You're right. It's not a fair comparison.

Using a $329 laptop compared to a MacBook Pro is, in fact, much more like driving a Yugo versus driving a Maybach.

 

Who cares how much the hardware costs? The hardware's nothing.

When a virus or other nasty wipes out all your data (you do have backups, right?), how will you feel then?

 

FYI:
Apple's Boot Camp: Macs Do Windows <http://www.informationweek.com/windows/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=185300001>

 

I've experienced more than one occaision where a friend of client bought the cheapest computer possible and then lost EVERYTHING due to some kind of malware attack. To make matters worse, one person had to call Dell's "customer service" and they put her on a trip through hell.

Don't get me wrong, I like Dell. Hell, I even own some Dell stock. I just think that Dell has been taking some short cuts over the past couple of years in their quest to save a buck or two. I personally think that customer service is one area that has really suffered as a result. Build quality seems to be slipping a little bit, as well.

 

Look about 10 posts above yours

 

If you are surfing the Internet, using a word processor and working with a spreadsheet... it doesn't take a $1,500 computer to do this, does it? How many people are actually creating movies and burning them on DVDs and remixing music and the like? Hardly any. In a given week I might use no more than 4 or 5 programs and I use computers all day long. I care more about having a nice keyboard, mouse, and monitor.

I already showed in an earlier post how a PC (from Dell) which is more powerful is much less money and comes with free technical support far longer than Apple provides. As far as people losing information on their computers that is because they are stupid if they do not take precautions. You cannot idiot proof the world. A $300 computer or a $3,000 computer are both machines and can both fail. The user is the weak point I think. And are Macs any safer than PCs? Did you read this article:

Hacker Gains Root Access to Mac OS X in 30 Minutes Walaika K. Haskins, newsfactor.com
Mon Mar 6, 4:40 PM ET


It took a hacker less than 30 minutes to gain root-level access to Mac OS X, according to a report from ZDNet. The hacker who penetrated the system called the Mac "easy pickings."

The security breach took place on February 22 after a Swedish devotee of the Mac set up a Mac Mini as a server and invited all takers to try to compromise the system's security to gain root-level control. Once a hacker has gained root access to a computer system, the attacker can install applications, delete files and folders, and use the computer for any nefarious purpose.

The competition was over in a matter of hours after a hacker, who asked to be identified only as "Gwerdna," gained access to the server in question and defaced the Web site with a message that read, "This sucks. Six hours later this poor little Mac was owned and this page got defaced."

Gwerdna told ZDNet that it took him a mere 30 minutes or less to gain root control of the Mac. "It probably took about 20 or 30 minutes to get root on the box," Gwerdna said. "Initially, I tried looking around the box for certain misconfigurations and other obvious things but then I decided to use some unpublished exploits -- of which there are a lot for the Mac OS X."

Taking Aim at Macs

Although Gwerdna said that the Mac Mini could have been protected more effectively, he also said that, even had the machine been configured for better security, it would not have stopped him because the vulnerability he exploited has yet to be published and Apple has not released a patch for it.

The winner of the hacking contest went on to say that there is a limitation on what hackers can do with unknown and unpublished vulnerabilities because there are countermeasures that systems administrators can employ to tighten security -- even for unpublished software flaws.

Although Gwerdna said that Mac OS X contains unpatched vulnerabilities that would permit a hacker to infiltrate Apple's operating system, he said that the relatively small number of Macs in use -- in contrast to the vast number of PCs running Windows -- is the reason more hackers do not try to exploit them.

"Mac OS X is easy pickings for bug finders," he told ZDNet. "That said, it doesn't have the market share to really interest most serious bug finders."

Flawed Apples

News of this contest comes on the heels of Macs being hit by two viruses and a critical security flaw. Security experts called the Leap and Inqtana viruses relatively harmless because of their limited scope, but rated the security flaw in Apple's Safari Web browser as critical.

Discovered by Michael Lehn, a graduate student and research assistant at the University of Ulm in southern Germany, the Safari vulnerability could have allowed attackers to disable a Mac computer after tricking the user into accessing a phony Internet site that contained malicious code.

Up until the point that Apple patched the flaw, the Safari browser's default configuration was set to open and run compressed files automatically. Attackers could exploit the flaw when Mac users downloaded files in which malicious software had been disguised to appear as safe.

Apple issued a security update last Wednesday to fix 20 Mac OS X vulnerabilities, including the Web-browser problem and a similar flaw in Apple's Mail client. The update also patched iChat, Apple's instant-messaging application, which now relies on an Apple technology called "download validation" to warn users of unknown or unsafe file types during transfers.

Lessons Learned

"The lesson here is that if we look at Mac OS X and compare it to, say, Windows XP, we find that, in terms of the number of vulnerabilities, they are actually quite comparable," said Vincent Weafer, senior director at Symantec Security Response.

What might surprise many is that both Apple's Mac OS X and Microsoft's Windows have roughly the same type of vulnerabilities in a similar volume, said Weafer.

But he did say that direct comparisons are not possible because both companies report vulnerabilities and security updates differently -- and Apple ships more applications with Mac OS X than Microsoft does with Windows.

Weafer also said that hackers are not capitalizing on vulnerabilities in Mac OS X to the same degree they are trying to exploit flaws in Windows. Weafer estimated that there are between 100,000 to 200,000 Windows viruses compared to 200 or so Mac viruses.

According to Weafer, the number of Mac vulnerabilities discovered and the possibility they will be exploited will gradually rise as a direct result of an increased interest in Mac OS X. Weafer urged Mac users to make sure they have installed antivirus and antispyware applications and are updating them regularly.



Choosing a Macintosh might be a lot of things... but it is going to cost you more money and you will have access to far fewer software packages. These are facts. The rest is just opinion and conjecture.

 

You're right that the user is often the weakest link. A Windows box can be secure if the user is diligent about anti-virus software, Windows updates, updates to anti-virus software, anti-spyware software, updates to anti-spyware software, and if the user does not use Interner Explorer. Or, the user could just spend $600 for a Mac mini and have a little less stress. Choice is a wonderful thing.

And I read the article. Did you see the rebuttal to the article?

http://www.macworld.com/news/2006/03...cked/index.php

 

I feel awful as a mod contributing to an OT conversation (I'd shut it down in the 3G TL forum and send everyone packing to Ramblings ), but I have to contribute in this case.

Boot Camp was pretty easy on my MacBook Pro, for the most part. Steps involved:

1. Clone Mac drive with Carbon Copy Cloner to external HD (I do this every couple of weeks anyway)
2. Download Boot Camp
3. Open Boot Camp Installer
4. Find Boot Camp in Utilities folder, open it
5. Drag slider to determine size of Windows HD space
6. Make Mac drivers CD
7. Follow instructions, which lead to restart and loading Windows XP2 install disc
8. Once Windows installed, load Mac Driver disc you made and the rest is automatic.

For me, the Mac drivers were corrupted during install and the machine hung, so I had to uninstall the drivers and reinstall them. Second time worked like a charm.

Windows operates about as fast as I would expect on a true Windows laptop. Office works great. Firefox is fricken fast. And most importantly, the medical software needed to check lab results in my hospitals work without a hiccup. Awesome. That's all I need.

I've also downloaded Parallels' virtualization solution and will be testing it this weekend, when I have time.

 

Good article indeed! Unfortunately, the test was shut down early so we won't ever know what would have happened:

www.macnewsworld.com/story/49296.html

And... again... the Mac Mini. No keyboard... no mouse... no monitor... no expandability. And only 1.5GHz. That cute little computer starts looking pretty limiting and expensive when you build one out in the real world!

As I said... Apple = More way more expensive w/less software than a Dell.

Who will admit that Apple charges a premium and that they don't mind paying way more for a slower computer with less available software and hardly any technical support? That's all I'm saying.

 

Hardly any technical support? What about the Apple Store?

And is it really fair to compare the Intel Core Solo in the Mac mini to the Celeron in the less-expensive Dells? And what software does a customer get with a less-expensive Dell?

 

I'm talking about something goes wrong and you call an 800 number and a person answers and helps you.

The cheapest Dell you can buy is for $529.00 comes with some good stuff:

~ 2.53 GHz Celeron processor
~ 512MB DDR SDRAM
~ 160GB HD
~ 17 inch E176FP Analog Flat Panel
~ Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW)
~ 2Yr Ltd Warranty, 2Yr At-Home Service, and 2Yr HW Warranty Support
~ Only Windows XP for software but with all the money you save so what?

At this point the conversation is redundant... but it's been interesting.

 

Are you comparing the Celeron's slower bus and smaller cache with the newer Intel Core? Does a faster clock speed compesate for the shortcomings? Or that the Mac mini comes with iLife 06 and FrontRow multimedia software (and a remote control) while the Dell in question comes with nothing? Can that DVD burner suppor DL discs?

Again, you get what you pay for. There are plenty of people out there who are using the same arugement you're using to justify the Accord over the RL. . .

 

Why does Dell need to offer 2 years of warranty and 2 years of tech support? For the same reason that Hyundais have the best warranty in the industry.... think about it....

You also cannot compare the bottom-end Celeron performance with the Mac mini. You need to move pretty far up in the Dell line to compare with that machine. But you won't admit that, because it's all about being cheaper to you.

it's amazing how people will be so adamant about saving $50-100 on their computer (which, for me, is well worth the price for elegant design, top-quality compnents, and, yes, prestige) but will not balk at paying $45K and up for a car?

It makes no sense. You condemn people who buy Apple as fools for spending a REALLY small amount more for something that pleases them... but yet, you drive an Acura?

With logic like that, you should be driving a Camry, shopping for underwear at Wal-Mart, and eating TV dinners instead of going out to real restaurants.

You should drink Milwaulkee's Best over Anchor Steam (hey, it gets you just as drunk as that pricey stuff, and it only costs $3.00 a six pack...) and spend $0.10 a roll on store-brand toilet paper rather than $0.40 a roll for Charmin.

Hey. I make a good living. I drive a nice car -- an RL. I eat at nice restaurants. My underwear is all cotton and made by Jockey. I drink real beer, and wipe my butt with the cushy stuff. Does that make me a fool? Surely not.

So, just like all of those things, I like my computer to be the best I can buy, and I don't mind spending a little more for it. And having used both PC's and Macs for years, I know what I like better, and I know I'm getting value for my money.

 

...blah, blah, blah.

 

MAC user and Apple Consultant

 

How's the Apple Consulting business? Pretty good, I guess, since you have an RL!

 

Thank you for the personal remarks that do not belong in this forum. You see Apple as being better. I do not. From your comments you also 'see' many other things that I do not, either.

It was an interesting discussion. Enjoy your Mac.

 

Been with Apple since Apple II! Just got the Macbook Pro last week. Just got the RL today.

 

Me, too! Macs all over the place!

I only wish that some of the folks who have created DVD-Audio creation software for Windows computers (such as Adobenizer) would do the same for Macs!

cliff biggers

 

I'm sure there's some DVD -Audio software somewhere. Have you checked Version Tracker?