RL and the Mac
 

Here's my crazy question of the day: how many RL drivers also use Macs? I wonder if there is some kind of correlation.

*wave*

Mac user here.

One more here.

Nope, but I use AMD Opteron chips instead of Intel chips.

Nope, but I use AMD Opteron chips instead of Intel chips.

I wonder if RL drivers tend to be: 1) high-tech folks and 2) tend to look at alternatives, as opposed to your standard Intel-based Dells.

Both of your friendly admins are Mac Users :thumbsup:

No, we're just smarter. :thumbsup:

I think I am a fairly high tech dude and I do not use a MAc nor an intel based dell. Well, my laptop is a dell with intel but my desktop here at work and also at home are custom built.

Oh and I dislike Apple but that may be because I ahd a roomie who always went orgasmic oer his Apple notebook and also because I hate the ipod. heh

Not to start a flame war here but... Mac users are some of the smartest and dumbest people I've ever met. They're willing to pay thru the nose for better technology and willing to keep on playing for it every time Apple switches hardware options so they get to re-sell you everything you own and all your software too! Then you spend thousands of dollars doing to because you are under the impression what you are using is more highly evolved than the 'Intel crowd.' I find it so funny.

After I spend nearly 2k on a Mac laptop then had the hardward configurations changed on me I dropped out of their little circle.

I hope RL owners are 'smarter' than Mac owners!

(Here's why Apple sucks)



BUSINESS/FINANCIAL DESK


Good Luck With That Broken iPod

By JOE NOCERA (NYT) 1622 words
Published: February 4, 2006

MY iPod died.
It happened right after Christmas -- a Christmas, I hasten to add, in which I gave my wife the new video iPod, making it the latest of the half-dozen iPods my family has bought since Apple began selling them in October 2001. We also own five Apple computers, and have become pathetically loyal because of our reliance on the iPod. To the extent that Apple is using the iPod to drive sales of other Apple products, the Nocera family is proof that the strategy works; we've probably spent more than $10,000 on Apple hardware since the iPod first came out. Alas, at least three of the iPods were replacements for ones that broke.


This time, though, I decided to get my iPod fixed. After all, it wasn't even two years old and had cost around $300. Like all iPods, it came with a one-year warranty. Although Apple sells an additional year of protection for $59, I declined the extended warranty because the cost struck me as awfully high -- a fifth of the purchase price of the device itself.

Anecdotal evidence -- like chat boards filled with outraged howls from owners of dead iPods -- strongly suggests that you can write the rest of this story yourself. You start by thinking: ''I'll just call Apple!'' But it's so hard to find the customer support number on Apple's Web site that you suspect the company has purposely hidden it.

Eventually, you find the number and make the call. Although the tech support guy quickly diagnoses your problem -- a hard drive gone bad -- he really has only one suggestion: buy a new iPod. ''Since it is out of warranty,'' he says, ''there's nothing we can do.'' You're a little stunned. But you're not ready to give up. On the Apple site, there's a form you can fill out to send the iPod back to Apple and get it fixed. But you do a double-take when you see the price. Apple is going to charge you $250, plus tax, to fix your iPod. There is no mistaking the message: Apple has zero interest in fixing a machine it was quite happy to sell you not so long ago.

Now you're reeling. You're furious. But what choice do you have? You can't turn to a competitor's product, not if you want to keep using Apple's proprietary iTunes software, where you've stored all the music you love, including songs purchased directly from the iTunes Music Store, which you'll lose if you leave the iTunes environment. So you grit your teeth and buy a new iPod. Of course since it's a newer machine, it has that cool video capability. But you're still angry.

You've read recently that Apple has sold 42 million iPods in less than four and a half years. Thanks to the iPod, Apple just reported its most profitable quarter ever. But you wonder how many of those 42 million units have gone to people who feel, as you do, that you've just been taken to the cleaners by Apple? You also wonder why do iPods seem to break so frequently? And why is Apple so willing to tick off people who spend thousands of dollars on Apple products by refusing to deal with broken iPods?

Or at least that's what I wondered as I went through the five stages of iPod grief.

CUSTOMER support is the ugly stepchild of the consumer electronics business. Companies like Dell and Palm and Apple have customer support centers not because they want to but because they have to. Computers, personal digital assistants and other digital devices are complicated machines. They break down much more frequently than, say, old analog televisions. And consumers expect the companies to deal with problems when they arise.

But customer support is expensive for gadget makers. ''A phone call costs a company 75 cents a minute,'' said the writer and technology investor Andrew Kessler. ''An hour call is $45.'' As prices have dropped sharply for computers and other digital devices, keeping those phone calls to a minimum has become supremely important to consumer electronics companies that want to maintain their margins and profitability.

That's why all the big tech companies try to force customers to use their Web sites to figure out problems themselves. It's why so many of them bury the customer support phone number. And it's also why, when you do call, companies like Dell teach its support staff to diagnose computer problems over the phone, and then talk you through some fairly complicated repairs. With its machines so inexpensive, Dell simply can't afford to allow too many customers to ship the computer back to the company to be fixed.

Consumers, though, don't really understand this. As much as they like being able to buy computers for less than $1,000, they don't realize that one of the trade-offs is minimal tech support. Nor do the companies spell this out; instead, they pretend that their service is terrific. Thus, there is a gap between what customers expect from companies that sell them complicated digital machines, and what companies feel they need do to ensure that those machines make money.

With the iPod, Apple has turned this gap into a chasm. On the one hand, because the price of an iPod is far lower than the price of a computer, Apple has even more incentive to keep people from calling; one long phone call turns a profitable iPod into an unprofitable one. Nor does it make economic sense to repair even the iPods under warranty. Instead, Apple simply ships you a new one.

On the other hand, an iPod is a very fragile device. The basic iPods are built around a hard drive, a device so sensitive that ''if it takes one shot, that will pretty much kill it,'' according to Rob Enderle of the Enderle Group, a technology consulting firm. Its screen cracks easily. Its battery can't be easily replaced because an iPod can't be opened up by mere mortals. All of these were conscious design choices Apple made, some of them having to do with keeping the cost down, while others were done largely for aesthetic reasons. But given how much wear and tear an iPod takes -- the core market is teenagers, for crying out loud -- is it any wonder that they break? ''If you get two or three years out of a portable device,'' Mr. Enderle said, ''you're probably doing pretty well.''

Which Apple doesn't tell you. Indeed, it doesn't say anything about how long you should expect your iPod to last. And so consumers buy it with the expectation that they'll put all their music on it and they'll carry it around for a good long time. And when that doesn't happen, they feel betrayed.

Steven Williams, a lawyer who brought a class-action suit against Apple a few years ago over the failed battery problem, told me that he was amazed to discover, as the litigation began, that Apple seemed to feel, as he put it, ''that everyone knew iPods were only good for a year or two.'' Thanks in part to the lawsuit, the battery issue is one of the few Apple will now deal with: if your iPod dies because of the battery you can send it back and get a new one for a mere $65.95, plus tax. Of course, you then lose all your music.

''Apple has been willing to alienate a certain percentage of its customer base forever,'' said Chip Gliedman, a vice president with Forrester Research, the technology research firm. Why? Because Apple is an extraordinarily arrogant company. ''Apple thinks it is special,'' is how Mr. Gliedman put it.

At this particular moment, of course, Apple is special, and it can get away with being arrogant. It has a product that everyone wants, and for which there is no serious competition.

But it seems to me that Apple is on a dangerous course. Yes, it has strong incentives to minimize tech support, but to say ''Not Our Problem'' whenever an iPod dies is to run the serious risk of losing its customers' loyalty. ''I believe that the iPod is one of the most brilliant platforms ever devised,'' said Larry Keeley, who runs Doblin Inc., an innovation strategy firm. But, he added, he has long predicted that the ''maintenance issue,'' as he called it, would be the product's Achilles' heel. ''Consumers are just not conditioned to believe that a $300 or $400 device is disposable.'' Mr. Keeley, whose daughters all have iPods, has come to believe that their natural life ''is just a hair longer than the warranty,'' and that Apple's level of service is ''somewhere between sullen and insulting.''

And, he warns, the day will come when the iPod has a major competitor. ''There will be competing platforms, and they'll get robust, and other companies will figure out how to crack iTunes,'' he said. At which point, Apple will reap what it is now sowing.

A final note: You may have noticed there is no Apple spokesman defending the iPod or Apple's customer support in this column. When I called Apple, wanting to know, among other things, how long Apple believes an iPod should last, I got a nice young woman from the P.R. department. She said she'd try to find someone at the company to talk to me. That was on Wednesday.

I'm still waiting.

No Mac, but another opteron user :)

No Mac. I'm an IT systems manager though.

Definitely a mac person here...we are the people in the world who like to have things that just work all the time, unlike the infamous pc junk out there.

Oh, this old stupid song again. Yeah, Apple sucks because they won't bend over backwards to repair a stupid MP3 player that costs $300 out of warranty -- and the 1 year warranty is much longer than most other consumer goods, who get 90 days.

And the criticism about upgrades? Let's look at reality....

Let's see -- the last time this happened was the OSX release... in 2001. The time before that? System 7 -- in 1991.

Ten years between MAJOR revisions. And OSX is 6 years out.... no sign of a change yet. Sure, there's been a few revisions, but they add features (tell me that Spotlight wasn't worth the price of 10.4?) And the OS updates? Usually $100.

The Intel Macs? Yeah, they still run OSX software -- all of it. The one thing they don't do, is run System 9 or earlier stuff.... and IF you're still running any of that, SIX YEARS LATER, then maybe it's time to buy some new software.

The B&W G3 that is under my other desk was built in 1999. I put a $150 G4 chip in it, it runs OSX perfectly.

The iMac G5 on my desk? Apart from running Microsoft Office for my law practice (and anyone who's used it can tell you that Office for Mac is MUCH nicer than Office for Windows) as well as Quickbooks and Acrobat, FASTER than my Wintel POS, it plays World of Warcraft just fine, too.

Windows? let's see.... first there was Win 3.1, which was good until 1995, then there was Win95...then Win98... then WinME (which was a disaster) and then Windows 2000, then finally XP in 2002 -- and Vista was supposed to be out by now, and is totally late. And each of these OS's is over $200 per pop....

Each time Windows has come out with a new version, you have to buy new hardware, more ram, bigger drives, and new software. But somehow that's OK... as is the fact that any PC hardware you buy is totally obsolete within 2 years, and if you're into gaming stuff becomes obsolete within MONTHS.

Meanwhile, I can use a 7 year old Macintosh on a daily basis for anything I need to do in my office. Can you say the same about a PC? No.

Want to talk bang for the buck? The iMac G5 that's on my desk comes with the nicest 20" screen i've ever seen, lots of goodies (bluetooth, gigabit ethernet, digital audio out, etc) and lost of software (iLife, and AppleWorks, and Quicken....etc.) and runs all Apple software, lots of Win software (through Virtual PC) and lots of Linux software.... for $1799.

The new dual-core Intel iMac? $1699, with a built in iSight and a dual-core processor, and all the software....

Yeah, that's really overpriced, huh?

Guess I'm just dumb for buying Macintosh.

Oh jeez. That popping sound you hear is a huge can o'worms being opened. Mac vs PC arguments are like Liberals vs Conservatives. No one will ever win the argument. Let's get back to talking about cars, shall we?

Oops, didn't mean to start a war. I was just wondering if maybe Acura RL drivers and Mac users both "think different." After all, most people tend to go with the crowd. I think that's one reason why the Lexus GS is selling so well, despite the fact that it excels at nothing: because Lexus drivers are just going with the crowd.

Can't we all just get along? :thumbsup:

I'm a Unix guy and being that MacOS is bsd unix, I guess I fall in this group. I do own a Mac actually but I never use it.

Well let's see here. In 1995 I paid 2k for a nice Mac laptop which I was supposed to be able to upgrade to PowerPC. I think Apple just said that so I'd buy it. The Power PC upgrade was never really available. Then Apple did something really nice and put some code in their OS that said unless it was PowerPC native the OS wouldn't work. Thanks Apple. My PowerPC upgraded 540c was garbage then... only a few years later. So that really pissed me off. My PC, that I built, will still run software from 1982 that I have. Wow that's pretty good.

The Apple arrogance of 'people will pay more for better design' is bad, too. Not to mention the yearly Apple OS 'upgrade' of $95 per pop. And any Mac that's for sale is just more expensive than a comparable non-Apple system. Or the fact that now that Apple has switched to Intel chips all those IBM/Motorola computers out there are done. And not compatible.

I'm not fan of Windows but considering tens of thousands of devices have to work with it, it'll run software from a quarter century ago is pretty good.

Apple does design beautiful stuff... some of it is really awesome looking. But they are an arrogant company I think and I'm not willing to pay more to be a ditto head.

You must have gotten a Powerbook 550 series, which were the last of the 68000's. In fact, not only were the PPC upgrades available for that machine, but they're still available today.

But it's not "garbage" just because after "a few years" (A FEW YEARS!?!!? How long do you expect to get out of a notebook, anyway?) it won't run the latest and greatest software.

Not to mention, that was the first notebook computer with a touchpad built in....

Absolutely and categorically untrue. I challenge you to find a better bargain, dollar for dollar, than the 20" iMac... but be fair, and include software AND an equivalent 20" flat panel monitor, AND a firewire autofocus camera.....and media center. That machine is $1699. Here's the link: http://tinyurl.com/6to9x

My iBook G4 was $899.... it's 4 lbs, has a great 12" screen, and gives me 5 hours of battery life... and I've restarted it exactly three times in the past year. Rock solid and flawless.

I'm not sure which bodily orifice you're pulling your facts out of, but again, that is absolutely and categorically untrue. Both G3/4/5 chips and Intel chips will run the SAME software on the SAME OS. The G5's have plenty of life in them, that's why they're calling it "Universal" software and not "Intel-only." And the Intel machines are fully backwards-compatible, with the exception of the System 9 and older stuff, which they are finally dropping after TWENTY years of legacy support.

All of the arrogance seems to be coming from you, friend... check your facts, and open your mind some.

I think we've gone off topic. I was just wondering if RL drivers were also Mac users. That was all.

lol, a bit off topic. I have a mac, but rarely use it. Only for graphic work.

Yes, the upgrade was available (I have a third party module) but it was almost as much as half the price of the computer I bought. And my point was not whether the upgrade was available it was the fact that Apple never really put much effort into it and then added code that forced me to upgrade my computer if I wanted to run their new OS (which would have worked find on my upgraded Powerbook 540c).

And I can buy a Dell Dimension E510 which is faster than the computer you cite (2.80GHz vs. 2.0GHz), has more memory (1GB vs. 512GB), a wireless keyboard (vs. wired) and mouse, the same hard drive, same software (Mac comes with nothing), and a nice 20" widescreen flat panel. The cost? $1,268 vs... $1,699.

As I said... pay more for Mac. Gee... what will I do with the $431 I saved? Maybe buy a TV tuner, DVD burner... who knows. Or make a car payment...

And the software written for Intel-based Macs will not work on PowerPC chips... sorry. You could use your Rosetta software to go PowerPC to Intel... but not the other way. Oh and it's a little slower.

So... there are a few facts for you.

But the Mac is sure pretty. But not much room for expansion and if the monitor or PC breaks you lose them both. Kinda why I never buy DVD/TV combos.

But sorry for taking this topic off topic.

No idea in answer to the question!

I think it comes down to 2 things since hardware is meshing between the two types of systems...

1) Do you want a computer that has nice asthetics and doesn't look like a piece of junk PC like pretty much all Dells and Gateways do

2) Most importantly, OSX vs. XP, do I need to say more. It's nice to have an OS that does not crash and you don't need to restart multiple times during the week. Spyware, malware, all the things that we don't need in our life.

Basically it just comes down to the OS anymore and there is no comparison. Also, funny how the internals of MS are in turmoil about how Vista is such a mess where it stands today and it was supposed to already be released.

Mac user here, although I have a custom-built Athlon X2 system for gaming.

I'm a professional developer, doing web and Java stuff, and trying to do this on Windows (and having to instal; Cygwin) just purely sucks.

The thing is Apple doesn't have to worry about legacy support because they pretty much kill that off every time they shake things up. Plus they control the hardware AND software. Plus not many companies build stuff for them. So yes, setting up a Mac is easy and everything works together. MS needs to support so much stuff and is used by so many people that it is awkward. But I am impressed that I can still use some stuff I've had for many years on my home built AMD machine.

I'm just saying that Apple uses their better design to get much more money out of their customers. And Apple customers are taken for granted by Apple... kind of like how the Democratic Party takes certain groups that vote for it for granted. After all... are they going to vote for the GOP? So I guess I don't like being taken advantage of... I don't like paying more than I should... and I don't like using a less powerful computer than I could be using.

MS has a mess on its hands with Vista. But so many Apple heads tout their OS, hardware, etc... but I think they're getting duped. Still, Apple does produce some world class stuff but I'm not willing to support their arrogance.

Dual platform user (prefer the Mac for home and PC for office). A loyal Apple use since the Apple II.

Clearly, some people have knee-jerk anti-Mac prejudices, and no amount of truth will dispel their hatred of Apple.

*shrug*

Go ahead, buy a crappy Dell. :) I'm not going to play in the flamewar anymore.

We will agree to disagree. My 'prejudice' however developed after actually owned a Mac and loving it for several years. And as for Dell... well I bought a used laptop for my mother, who is not computer savvy, and in the last 5 years their technical support has been a lifesaver to her and they never charged for any of it. Way to go Dell! My computer is a home built box. Clearly there are some anti-Dell prejudices out there, too.

It makes sense that Dells have a decent amount of technical support, mainly for one reason...they need it. I have purchased 10 macs within the past 7 years and have not once needed to call for support. Macs just work. I haven't had an issue with any of our iPods either, and also its very easy to replace an iPod mini battery, and it costs you $40. If you want Apple to do it, it's only $59.

The problem my mother has had with her Dell has nothing to do with the Dell... it is the software. To Dell's credit they always spend time helping even when the fault isn't them.

You know, half the problem is the software, the other half is the way its setup.
When you get the PC from Dell, etc, Win is setup to the make it easy for the manufacturer to fix and diagnose.
I cant tell you how many times I see PC's setup improperly.

Same here (first machines were a Mac Plus at home and a PCXT at work), but I am scheming to get my employer to buy me a Macbook Pro so I can use one machine-someone on the web has already hacked a version of WXP to work on a MB Pro, so it is only a matter of time before these machines become truly dual OS capable.

IMac G5
Mac Powerbook
4 Ipods
yes I got way to many topys

Not an RL owner, but I AM a 20-year Mac veteran. I like PeeCees as I am a hobbyist too, but all my work is on Macs. I think it could be true that folks who look at Acuras in general enjoy living off the beaten path in life. And yes, I am happy to pay the premium for better GUI and such. Unlike with cars, this is one place where doing such actually matters. Glad to see all the Macfolken here...and, oh yes, I'm an AAPL stockholder, too. It's my best performing stock.

Enjoying my DUAL-BOOT MacBook Pro 2.0 GHz (Gawd this thing ROCKS)

Currently own:
MacBook Pro 2.0
TiBook 1 GHz (for sale now that I have MBP)
iBook G4 933 14" (wife's rig)
Quicksilver 2002 G4 933/upgraded with Gigadesigns dual 1.8 GHz card
MacMini 1.25 GHz rev 1 (office machine)
"FrankenPC" 2 GHz AMD, home built and rebuilt several times in the last five years


Previously owned:
Green iMac rev C 266 MHz (previous office machine)
Beige G3 266
Lombard G3 333
Wallstreet G3 233 (stolen :( )
Performa 6110 ("Pizza Box" Mac)
Performa 575CD
Mac Classic II

Glad to see you survived the Performa era-that was enough to make anyone question their loyalty to the Apple product line! Have you experimented with the WXP hack that was developed for the Duo Core Intel Macs? If you haven't heard about it, you can read more here:

http://www.onmac.net/

You have to own WXP already-the s/w on the site is a bootloader to load WXP onto an Intel Duo Core Mac. Since you already have the AMD machine, it might be fun for you to try it out. Since I can't buy my MB Pro yet (college financial aid calcs come first, according to the finance committee!), I'll have to live vicariously through others on this topic.

NeuronBob-I think I misread your post. Do you already have WXP on your MB Pro?

Yup. I have Windows XP (SP2) on a partition, using narka et al's boot loader. Except for sound and video acceleration (e.g. games), it works very nicely for everyday use. I need XP for some software that is Windows only, otherwise I'd be 100% Mac OS.

I run MS office on my Dell office laptop (Outloook, Word, Powerpoint, Excel, Visio, Project), but not much else-do you think I would be okay using a dual boot machine for those things? I have a nice G5 tower I use for gaming and heavy duty graphics/video, so I'm not looking for a lot of power, just standard Windows apps.

Computer Engineer. Started off with Commodore-64, Amiga and then PC.

You're using an avatar I created on a pc, btw. I guess I did a pretty good job on it.

I think the Mac has a surperior operating system, but I've never owned one simply because I can't run the software I need on a Mac. I think Apple really messed up in the beginning when they wouldn't license their operating system to other manufacturers. If they had done that the Apple operating system would probably be the main one. Now we're stuck with Windows.