Gentlemen I need your help!

as some of you know I have a 2005 RL currently has 104k miles (bought in 08 with 36k right off lease)
I been having the p0401 EGR insufficient flow code intermittent for a year. I cleaned the EGR valve but it came back. lately (this winter) its been on most of the time so I decided to clean the EGR system, since I'm going through a divorce I am broke and it was ether do it myself or don't do it at all...

The whole process took two long afternoons. I removed the intake access hatch, disconnected all the hoses on the manifold. removed the throttle body,lifted the intake, removed the EGR valve and cleaned the intake, valve and the engine passage with large amounts of carb cleaner. The only difficult task was the throttle body removal as its very tight fit but its doable after removing the air box and hose.
I reassembled everything, reusing old gaskets but cleaning them and the contact surface with carb cleaner.

Good news is car started, p0401 did not come back
Bad news I now have p2413 Exhaust Gas Recirculation Performance/Range problem!!

I need help on how to attack this, please suggest anything as the information on the internet is pretty minimal on this code!

I rechecked all the connections, sure enough one connector was disconnected (controls the butterfly valve that tunes runner length ) but it did not fix the problem. All other electrical connectors as well as hose/vacuum connections are OK (checked everything 4 times)

I did not have any leftover screws, all the assembly went without any obvious issues.

Here are some things bothering me right now:


1. I did dump a can of seafoam into the gas tank when filling it up right after the EGR work (before the engine warmed up and the code came on, I was on E and filled to F) I failed to find any information on seafoam causing EGR failures. I did not perform the typical sucking seafoam into intake procedure. Seafoam is used on Honda engines a lot and someone would had have this problem.

2. SInce I reused the old gaskets, would a vacuum leak in the manifold/manifold lid/EGR valve cause this error code? should I take it apart again and use some gasket sealer on it?

3. This code is completely different than other EGR codes that start with 04XX (vs this one 2413)
Why would honda have an extra EGR code in a different batch of codes?

4. How does the "computer" monitor the EGR performance? looking at the diagrams the only electronic part of the system is the EGR valve. how does the brain now that the flow is insufficient (0401)? or with the current code that is not operating correctly (2413)?
Is everything in the EGR valve? it has 6 wires, 2 operate the valve, 2 monitor valve position but I don't know what the last pair is for.
I don't feel too good about replacing the valve as the code was not previously there, removing and cleaning would not damage it.

5. should I look into very basic stuff like fuses?



Gents, please help! any advice is greatly appreciated!

 

only one code? Usually there is a P404 or something with it.

If the car isnt acting up I'd drive it with some additive in the tank and stop buying crappy fuel.

 

i am driving it, however it is turning on sh-awd limp mode... i will need to pass emissions and the state of Illinois won't pass me with this code.

 

You filled up the whole gas tank with seafoam?!?




I suppose you have read through the service manual on this stuff?

The only thing that stands out to me is the SH-AWD light coming on. Have you tried disconnecting the battery terminals and holding them together for ~ a min? Any chance your battery is dying?

 

Isint it normal when you have an engine code the car often turns the super handling AWD to limp mode?

Battery is 4 months old. Let me see if i have this correctly, disconnect positive and negative and then short them together for a minute? what does that do??

also how to disable the codes from the information menu (info/ diagnostic menus) if i could erase the old ones I would see what new ones come up, otherwise it wont display a code if its already on the list.
I just reviewed it and the total history of EGR codes going back to a year ago (oldest to newest)

p0404 (EGR range/performance)
p0171 (bank 1 to lean, could be EGR related)
p0401 (EGR insufficient flow)
p0174 (bank 2 to lean)
p2413 (egr malfunction)
77 (All wheel drive, usually comes up after check engine)

I think its time to get me a bluetooth OBD2 dongle and some software for my phone since going by the center control menus might not be very reliable.


PS> i got the codes erased (the info/diagnostic messages menu stayed programmed unfortunately but OBD codes were erased) I drove home, left the car running on the driveway for 35 mins. went to the gym. no check engine. After leaving the gym the check engine came back in 2 minutes. Unfortunately since all the above codes are already in the diagnostic messages menu I was unable to check what exact code did it came up with

 

I think it is normal for the SH-AWD to disable under some conditions, but I'm not sure about the EGR codes. (I'm sure you know) the EGR is all about emmissions and not about performance. I don't see why they would put the car in limp mode for an EGR issue unless they were concerned it would just be dumping out unburned fuel.

Yes, disconnect the cables and hold the terminals together. When you simply remove the cables, the capacitors will not discharge quickly. Over time they will, but it could take minutes or hours. Holding the cables together gives a discharge route for the capacitors and ensures the most discharge in the circuits as possible. A discharge this way should really take less than a second.

 

They have been known to throw a 77-1 with an EGR issue.. I blame Obama.

If you are capable (if not take it somewhere) you should test the egr valve.

Idle the engine and unplug the egr , find a way to provide ground and power to the egr valve (we do it with pigtail connectors) apply 12 v from battery to egr valve if you can hear a click on the egr and the car doesnt stall then u have a clogged port ,if the truck stalls egr system is good , or if you dont heard a click at all when 12 v is applied the your egr is the problem.

 

I knew the RL was a heavy 4x4, but I didn't think it was quite to truck status.

 

hahaa... copy paste fail. Same process for the SUVs

 

Heavy the egr has 6 wires going to it, its more than just an on/off solenoid. there are variable stages of "open" for it too.... so one pair opens it, second pair monitors how open it is and i have no clue what the third pair is doing.

Anyhow i am waiting on the obd2 dongle so i can scan stuff and not rely on the info screen.

I realize i might have to change the valve, does anyone gave any bad experiences with the generic remanufactured valves (80 bucks vs 300 for oem)

Should i document this better? do we need a good instructable for egr stuff in j35a8?

 

 

UPDATE!

so I got the USB OBDII dongle for the torque app (well worth the 18 bucks, wish I had got it sooner)

To my surprise I have two codes 171/174 (both banks too lean) Good news is I actually fixed the EGR! I also learned not to trust the DIagnostic info screen

Since EGR is fixed (did several hundred miles since then) I WILL do an Instructable for you guys with a neat trick that would cut down the time by 80% (I learned the hard way) I will do the DIY in a new thread so people dont have to read thru all of this thread.

Any recomendation for lean condittions? I reset the ECU and within 200 miles it came back

one thing I can recomend at this point is Torque lite and a dongle! this thing shows live data from sensors and whatnot, pretty awesome for very cheap even on my broke ass divorced budget...

 

Clogged injectors? Maybe run a fuel system cleaner through with the next tank?

Put a package of coffee filters in front of the air filter?

 

I dont understand your advice on coffee filters

BTW codes erased yesterday, nothing came out on the way to work today(22mi) so on the way back I did some high revs (tad over 6k) and no codes present and no codes pending. would this prove this is not a case of fuel delivery problem??

whats the recommended injector cleaner for J35?

 

I hate to ruin a joke, but I don't want to mislead you either. First, red text means sarcasm. Second, if you are too lean, your air to fuel ratio is too little fuel and too much air. Stuffing coffee filters in your air box would (in theory) restrict air flow and proved the perfect mixture of too little air and too little fuel.



Please don't put coffee filters anywhere in your car except a grocery bag.

 

EGR codes did not come back for over a month now (since my EGR cleaning) the only codes that come back once a week or so are the system too lean,
That means its time for an Instructable!

PS. MODERATOR feel free to trim it, move it or do whatever you like with it
__________________________________________________ ________________

Disclamer:

I am not responsible for any screw ups, exercise good judgment and always stay safe!

This instructable is for a second gen RL, my car is a 2005 with 104k miles, I had it for the last 7 years, 68k miles. Although I am unable to verify it, this procedure should work with other vehicles equipped with J35A8, This procedure might not work for vehicles with other version of J35s as there are significant differences in the intake manifold.

I am making this instructable "post mortem" my car is fixed, the EGR codes did not come back (sorry for the lack of detailed photos)

Also, I'm a Naturalized Citizen, English is my second language so I would like to apologize for any linguistics issues you mind find!

Tools and supplies:

Metric sockets and associated peripherals (ratchet, extensions etc)

Carb cleaner (2 cans minimum)

Brushes, rags, hanger wire or something else that’s stiff and will knock carbon buildup off the passages.

　

　

Operation:

The EGR system reduces oxides of nitrogen (NOx) emissions by recalculating exhaust gas through the EGR valve and the intake manifold into the combustion chambers. The PCM memory includes the ideal EGR valve position for varying operating conditions.

The EGR valve position sensor detects the amount of EGR valve lift, and sends it to the PCM. The PCM then compares it with the ideal lift in its memory (based on signals sent from other sensors). If there is any difference between the two, the PCM cuts current to the EGR valve.

(soruce: 2005-08 ENGINE PERFORMANCE Fuel and Emissions Systems – RL manual)

　

Codes:

So the reason you are here is most likely one or more of the codes bellow:

P0401 Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Insufficient Flow　
P0404 Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Control Circuit Range / Performance Problem　
P0406 Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Position Sensor Circuit High Voltage　
P1491 Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Insufficient Lift　
P1498 Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Valve Position Sensor Circuit High Voltage　
P2413 Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) System Range / Performance Problem

you might also see "check SHAWD" code 77 showing up together with "Check Engine".

While you can use the on board "Diagnostic Screen" to look up codes I learned the hard way that it is not fool proof* I recommend buying an OBDII Bluetooth dongle (Amazon $10) and download a free software that will let you clear OBD codes and so much more ( monitor most of the sensors on the engine, intake air temp for example) I used a free version of "Torque".

　

　

EGR Valve problems:

The valve is easily accessible, its held by 2 bolts, it has a gasket and you should be able to reuse the old one. Take the valve out by disconnecting the electrical plug and removing two bolts holding it down (don't loose the gasket) you should be seeing carbon deposits. Sometimes a hard chunk of carbon gets stuck there and blocks the valve. Clean the valve out with carb cleaner. Look down the passages in the engine, how much buildup do you see? Your welcome to try cleaning it from there but try not to push it in further down in the engine! (I left it alone, snapped the valve back on and had no codes for 2 or 3 months during my first EGR attempt)

If you still have valve related codes after cleaning you might want to test it electrically:

The 2005-08 ENGINE PERFORMANCE Fuel and Emissions Systems – RL manual will tell you what voltage should each related wire have.

Some people suggest laying the valve on a side, turn the engine on and see what the valve is doing. This might not work, the valve has variable stages of opening, also it monitors itself and reports to the PCM.

Insufficient flow:


So I started getting insufficient flow code after removing and cleaning the valve every 4 months or so. I knew its time for some elbow grease. I looked and YT and Google and learned that I have to take the intake manifold out to clean it. Here is the deal. All of the info I found was for J35xx but non was for J35A8. There are significant differences in the intakes and I believe Honda improved our intake dramatically. After removing my intake I learned that I did not had to take it off! The EGR passage in the intake its about 1 inch long and goes straight down – just a 1 inch long pipe sort of speak. Removing the intake is not a very pleasant process as the throttle has to come off -not an easy task due to space constrains. I took the intake off, I'm not a mechanic and it took me two afternoons (the whole process of EGR and intake cleaning) if it ever gets clogged up again I can do it in under an hour because the intake will stay in! Here is the process:

1. after removing the beauty cover grab a 10mm socket and take out the 12 nuts&bolts holding the access lid down.

2. Remove the lid. It will have two types of rubber gaskets, one red going around and one black dividing the cylinder banks in the middle. My black gasket was very loose, hanging down like clothesline. The quick fix is to drop it in the freezer for a couple of hours, it will shrink nicely and stiffen too (its a tall gasket that might fall off its sweet spot during mounting of the lid)

3. you will recognize the EGR zone by dark soot, there will be a chamber on the throttle side with a square channel approximately the shape of the letter "I" with two angled EGR outlets on each end. Take channel out (2 nuts if my memory serves me correctly) This is where exhaust is mixed with air from the throttle.

4. Cleaning time! Clean the square channel (bucket with solvent of your choice a strip from an old T-shirt to push through it back and forward until clean). Clean the soot from the intake and the lid with carb cleaner and a soft brush

5. 5. when you look where the "I" channel was there is a port going down. If you spray carb cleaner there it will come up in the hole where the previously removed EGR valve was.

How will you clean it is up to you. Some people force hanger wire there. I just sprayed it full of carb cleaner, let it sit, then blow out with compressed air. Repeat until satisfied!

6. when all is cleaned to your liking just mount the valve, "I" bracket and lid back on. Have some common sense with torque and nut sequence clear your OBD2 codes and VIOLA!


Photos:






Here is a photo of my intake removed. it was a major pain, especially the throttle area as it has very little room to slide it off the studs. You do not have to do this for EGR cleaning! the manifold EGR path is a 1inch long pipe with no turns!







Here is the EGR valve in case you dont know what to look for.- its on the driver side /front corner of the block







this is the intake access lid, use 10mm socket on the nut and bolt mix (12 total) be careful of the gasket lifting

 

Both photos are from google images, original source J35a8 Honda/Acura V6 Intake Manifold Removal






the "I" channel is on the left side with a "booby" in the center right side. two bolts holding it down are half way above and bellow the "titty"





The lid is sitting 180 degrees out of phase on this photo (look at the soot)
The black rubber gasket I had problems with is held down by a thumb... you can also see the "I" channel bolt better

 

Guys, is any part of this instructable confusing? do i need to iron anything out?
Moderator should we start a new thread with this instrucable so its easier for people to find?

 

I didn't read everything, but it looks very comprehensive. I don't see the need to change the thread either. If you want to change the name to give a little more insight into what it's for, we can do that.

 

yeah, lets toss a DIY right in the tittle.

No codes of any kind since my last post. It looks like either the weather or EGR cleaning helped with the lean codes!

 

DIY: ....?

Sorry, I still haven't read everything. What all did you try to fix?

 

i have a 2008 acura rl. i cleaned the egr port system. i replaced the following. egr valve, map and iat sensors, intake and throttle body gaskets. i also installed pre cat deletes. and i am still getting a p2413 code. please help, anyone think of something i missed. this is the only code i get and it throws the car into limp mode and disables the awd. i cant have that with my 18 yro daughter driving this car.

 

i have replaced the following with new parts. egr valve, intake and throttle body gaskets. iat sensor and map sensor. replaced the pre cats with precat deletes. i have cleaned the egr passages so clean you could eat off them. i still get p2413. anything you can think of that i missed?

 

i had a wire on the egr that was cut in a way that was hard to see.