SpicyMikey

I can't imagine ANYONE disagreeing with you there. Anyone?

I know I have a bit of a wheel fetish, but, these Acura wheels are poor. Those gun metal TL-S wheels are hidious and the RL stock wheels are below the level of this car. Unfortunately, I have the PAX package and couldn't even opt for the upgraded wheels.

It was almost a deal breaker for me, but every other indicator pointed to this car that I decided to overlook it. I just try not to look at the wheels

TOMH-RL-TLS

To me tl = es & rl = gs I actually like the 07 tl-s wheels they look great w/carbon bronze but do find the rl wheels a bit boring
Also cooled seats & a few more ponies would be great on the next rl

TOMH-RL-TLS

To me tl = es & rl = gs I actually like the 07 tl-s wheels they look great w/carbon bronze but do find the rl wheels a bit boring
Also cooled seats & a few more ponies would be great on the next rl

TOMH-RL-TLS

S-s-s-s-s orry i messed up

neuronbob

That would indeed be very cool.

i_mobile

Thank God for Ron Jon. Those wheels for the RL are just gorgeous. I am switching mine as soon as I can.

SpicyMikey

I wish they had wheels for those PAX tires. When these tires need replacement I may replace teh entire wheel and tire set. Evidently these tires are so expensive it won't cost much more to revert back. This car needs chrome 19" wheels to look right.

CL6

Yeah the CBMS option is nice but being wedded to those wheels and tires for the life of the car is a major downer. Plus dealers need to drop a lot of cash to get the stuff to service them. Acura thinks they're making it a convenience issue but it's really the opposite. Shows little market research I think.

Chas2

Or a great sales job by OEM supplier Michelin. You add PAX to your line as an option and look at the deals we will cut you on "regular" tires.

noobie

+1 on that. For me, comparing the RL against other cars in my spreadsheet means adding the cost of Ron Jon wheels and tires to the purchase

neuronbob

Now Acura's record is not 100% bad on the wheels. The A-Specs look pretty darn respectable. They needed to be the stock wheels. They make the car look a lot less grandfatherly.

SpicyMikey

Yep, the A-spec wheels should be the stock wheels and they should add a true chrome 19" option wheel. Not suggesting anything that will make the car look pimped out, just something a bit bolder -- but still sophisticated enough to blend with the cars natural style. The current wheels are ok for maybe a Mustang, but they don't compliment the RL. I think something as simple as changing the wheels would actually have an incremental positive effect on the sale of this model

Rob144

The wheels and the grille could go for an upgrade. I'd like an all-chrome grille for a little more flash in the front. I gather the soft grille does have safety benefits, though.

I keep thinking about A-Spec wheels and tires for their great looks, but at 7000 miles a year, it'll be a while before I even need new tires! By then, I wonder if I'll be able to get them. When I had my 88 Legend coupe, I upgraded from the painted metal wheel to the '89 style machined wheel, and that made a big difference. Maybe the '08 will have a better looking 17" stock wheel.

One of the things about Hondas, and Acuras in particular, is that they continue to look good even after generation or two. My neighbor bought a late-model 1G RL, and it looks pretty darn good on the road. When they first did the 1G RL MMC, it looked a bit overdone, but it has aged surprisingly well, as I expect the 2G RL to do. I guess the competition finally caught up with it.

Rob144

123456SPEED

The service mgr at local dealer has an 05 Lakewood with, I think, those larger 5zigen? rims. HUGE difference for the car, major improvement, gives the car a whole new look. Amazing what decent rims can do, the stock RL rims are clunky and cheap looking IMO. Acura needs to upgrade the rims on this car, but I bet they don't.

gavine

Okay, so you don' t think the Altima and G35 sedans look the same (I still do)...how about the coupes?

mrdeeno

and your point is what?

if you mistake one for the other, you're probably someone who doesnt' know cars as well as you think you do (and therefore also mistake an RL for an Accord) and/or you need to see an optometrist.

shepsan

mrdeeno, you are right-on.


Comparing the top-of-the-line to more modest models is the product of a person without knowledge. I have a neighbor who sees cars with an uneducated eye.

When I had my last RL, he said it looked like an Accord and was probably not much better; When I had my M45, he said it looked like a Nissan and probably rattled. Today, he says that my car, a Lexus, looks like a fluffed-up Camry.


His perception of total form is limited. He never sees nuances or differences in quality. He groups all if the models of the same brand as posessing the same mechanical concept.


A car enthusiast on the other hand, is one who can discern the differences, even though they be minute. Real quality is quality and not confined only to engine size, hp, mpg or glitz. Design, features, technology and creature luxury define class.


It is a shame that the Acura nameplate does not evoke what we who have owned the Acura to know from experience. It is a great car and surpasses many of its competitors at its lesser cost of purchase.

kirbyflorida

I keep saying this, the RL is for the educated buyer who appreciates finer points of spirited driving.

The RL has alum suspension, alum calipers with 4 pistons in front, SHAWD, not JUST all wheel drive, totally different. Many alum parts, inside bumper beams, frame items, hood, etc.

For example, check out the guages in any BMW, talk about outdated, just terrible.
This is an amazing car that MOST people do not know about, Honda is not going after large portions of the population IMO.

Perfect, no, will they improve it, absolutely.

Try a LS430 around a corner, talk about no control and massive body roll. One reason I mention the 430 is the weight is about the same as the RL.

CL6

Different kind of car, different kind of buyer. It's not like Lexus tried to build a car like the RL but it ended up handling like it does.

gcook

you are right about the "looks a little civicish" because sometimes a guy at work parks his civic coupe next to my car and you can see the lines in the rear are very similiar. I had noticed that so it interesting to see someone else whom did too..

NightRider

The RL is not selling well because it is a niche car...It is the Acura flagship, meant to compete with S class/7 series/LS at an E Class/5 series/GS price. In my opinion it does a viable job, but is still lacking in some areas. Luxury is basically measured by number of features and integration into vehicle. Although the above cars may cost more, there are more available options for the money. Things such as color coordinations, cutting edge safety and luxury features, cosmetic options, etc.

A good example, when I bought my brand new 04TL w/NAV, it had 8 way power driver and 4 way power passenger seats. My 1997 Benz C280 (below TL levels theoretically) had 8 way driver and passenger seats, including power headrests. It also had one touch driver AND passenger windows as opposed to just driver for the TL. In addition, the Benz had remote up/down rear headrests (including the middle seat), a complete fold down rear seat instead of just a pass thru, etc. The paint on the C280 also puts any of my Acuras to shame. Bottom line is although Acura has always represented great value, it hasn't always represented pure luxury or pure sport, more of a jack of trades car maker.

Although performance is much improved over the last RL, it is still behind it's direct and near competitors. All the above mentioned cars are at least offered with V-8's, including the M45 which I also feel is somewhat of a niche car. All above cars also have either at least 6 gears or more performance oriented 5 speeds. Although 300HP is respectable, for this size of car and the flagship status, I think it would have done Acura better to create an RL type S. If not V-8 equipped, at least a top tier high performance V-6, since H/A doesn't like to up the cylinder count. For instance, the J35 in the RL is SOHC. I speculate by converting to DOHC, we could see numbers similar to the new G37 (330HP/270TQ). Remember, 4 cylinder DOHC H/A engines have produced 120HP per liter.

I understand the RL and Acura in general don't have all the stupid, sometimes expensive options packages of the aforementioned. This also means it is a bit of a "like what you see or go elsewhere" mentality. I would love to see more and different thought-out options on the standard list, even if it meant a slightly higher price. Chances are this higher price would still be thousands lower than competitors.

NightRider

EDIT: In case people didn't notice, the big 3 luxury cars are becoming more well rounded. The new Lexus are more sporty to go along with the luxury now. BMW has always been sporty and is coming with more luxury now. Mercedes is coming with slightly more sport and luxury than before. If Acura can work on slightly upping sport and luxury AND staying in the niche price ranges, they will start to see sales rise quickly. SH-AWD available from top to bottom and more sport/luxury would be a big step towards improvement, as Acura sales are somewhat cannabalized by similar Honda products.

mrdeeno

No, the RL does not compete with the S/7/LS...it competes SQUARELY in the midsize luxury class with the E/5/GS/M in both size and price (hence the term "midsize").

In this case, this class is not a "niche" class and the RL was never meant to be a "niche" car (if you kept up with the news, even Acura/Honda realizes that sales are lackluster). labeling a car as a "niche" car or calling the brand a "niche" brand, when even the automaker doesn't considers itself that, is just a "feel-good" way denying the truth that sales suck.

It does a viable job competing in the MIDSIZE luxury class, but it is lacking in areas that more or less are expected in this midsize class (RWD or V8 offered, MSRP at or above other's V8 prices, no major trim levels or options, the most conservative design in the class, etc.).

Both Infiniti and Acura were in the same boat in this class due to lack of image. But infiniti succeeded where Acura failed because Infiniti's method was based on what has been working in this segment for BMW, Lexus, and MB (options, V8, RWD, trim levels) while Acura decided to bring it's own methods in.

I don't know about you guys, but I think it's like starting a new sport or starting in a sport you were once not good at. You see who the major players are, learn the game, and emulate the successful players until you get a feel of what works and what doesn't work, then change it up once you figure it out (like what Infiniti is doing). You don't go into a new sport with completely different ideas, completely eschewing what has been proven to work, especially when you failed in the past at the same sport (like what Acura tried to do with the current RL considering the lack of success with the last RL).

SpicyMikey

of course, you're right about the "niche" comment and the comparison to full size sedans. However, I'm curious about what you mean regarding Infiniti and Acura. What has Infiniti done right? I see Infiniti simply doing a better job with reliability and styling. The market is responding. Simple as that. Do you see more?

mrdeeno

What I see is the way the M35/45 is marketed/sold vs. the way the RL is marketed/sold.

M35/45 sales/marketing method is in line with what traditionally has worked for BMW/MB/Lexus...offer major options/trims such as sports models (rather than dealer installed "A-spec" package), offer larger engine choices, and offer drivetrain choices such as RWD and AWD. They see what works, so they emulate it, and as a non-established player, they took the conservative approach of doing what has been more-or-less proven to work.

The RL sales/marketing method eschews what traditionally has worked for BMW/MB/Lexus...they offer only a V6 engine, only AWD drivetrain, no trim levels (when first introduced), no major options (only overpriced dealer installed options), and only a $50k price tag when the car was introduced. For a "non-established" player in this market segment, that's a pretty aggressive "unproven" move, especially in a relatively conservative market segment.

it's no secret why the RL is not selling well...it's not the product itself that is bad, but it's that the overall product offerings/marketing of the RL was trying to fit a square plug in a round hole. Unlike the sub-$45k market, in the $45k+ market segment, the product needs to be "right", but the marketing and offerings have to be "right" also, and this is where Acura dropped the ball.

SpicyMikey

I agree with your assessment. This way Honda Motors sells cars may work for the "value" shopper buying a civic (or even an Accord). However, a Lux buyer wants options. The take-it-or-leave-it sales model is wrong for the high end market.

Also, as we know, Lux cars are more often obtained using a Lease contract rather then finance. The reasons for that have been discussed, ad nauseam, in other threads. Let's not go there . However, the finance plans they offer favor finance. Also, this "dealer add on accesorizing" is bad for a leasor because dealer added accessories are not usually residualized.

These two factors ALONE are probably the majority of the problem for Acura moving upstream.

Glad to see you didn't emphasis the powertrain too much. I really thing the debate over v8/v6, RWD/AWD, etc. is a non-issue for 95% of the RL buyers. Sure, they probably loose sales because, AGAIN, they fail to offer choice. However, this is a 4dr sedan. it's not a "niche" car like a Porche 911. I think price, image, and styling are what 99% of the car buyers consider when shopping for a car in this category. My neighbor down the street just bought an RL. She's somwhere north of 40. You think she's sitting there going; "Hmm, I like the RL but the lack of low end torque in this 3.5 v6 is a real problem for me, plus, I really want the drivability from a RWD for my road trips in the hills This SHAWD is nice but the extra weight doesn't justify the performance improvements."

mrdeeno

Actually, I think the v8/v6, RWD/AWD, etc. is a non-issue for 100% of RL buyers...otherwise they wouldn't have bought an RL.

The RL is a great car if someone is in the market for a V6/AWD midsize luxury car...but a "one-size-fits-all" model ironically fits very few people in this market segment. It's like trying to sell a one-size-fits-all suit in a custom-tailor men's shop...it'll fit most people who shop there, but the people who shop there aren't in the market for a one-size-fits-all suit.

neuronbob

Someday, I'm going to summarize all these points in this thread and put them in a letter to Acura management: "Dear Acura, this is what we North American customers want in our RL that's not there." The next RL must be already well along in its development, but perhaps hearing from actual RL owners could be helpful? Better yet, a short letter pointing Acura designers to this thread, if they're not already reading it.

mrdeeno

Here would be a sample reply:

OneOfOne

yes you are missing something. maybe a vision exam. the benz fanboys say stupid things like this about lexus and worse about acura. the fact of the matter is that the LS looks NOTHING like a camry and in fact IS NOT a toyota. the SC, and the RX are in fact toyotas in japan. that will change just like the CURRENT versions of the IS,GS and LS have. in japan as elsewhere they are LEXUS. maybe if honda had more respect for their american customers they would spend the money and make NEW cars that are exclusively acura instead of rebadged or reskinned[most of the line] hondas. prior to the current LS when it was a rebadged toyota there was an even higher model called the crown which may still exist. the reason why the rl will not ever sell in its current form is because of styling and size and cost. marketing has nothing to do with its failure.

SpicyMikey

Your good MrDeeno. You make me laugh.

OK, what I was suggesting is that most sedan buyers (not just RL buyers) are more concerned about price, style, etc. Of course, those that end up buying an RL are 100% ok with the car (otherwise they wouldn't have bought it). I just don't think the average sedan buyer is getting excited about (and basing his decision on) V8/v6, RWD/AWD, double wishbone suspension, etc. I have no facts to back that up. It's just from lifes experiences walking among the sedan driving humans.

We are a minority. If they car manufacturers catered to us, they'd go broke. Your hypothetical letter was not far off from reality


I think it's more of an issue for the car "enthusiasts" as you called us, then the average person. Somet

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

Alright though I have a question. Does Acura have ANY say in what happens with the next RL. Doesnt Acura just take the Legend and slap an RL badge on it. I mean they can do a few things with it but for the most part dont they just work with the legend.

mrdeeno

I don't think that the general midsize luxury car buyer is basing their decisions on V8/V6/RWD/AWD/etc. etc. either...

but they ARE basing their purchase decisions on the opinion of magazines and enthusiasts. They will look over articles that review/compare cars in this segment and will make note of the raves and complaints that the reviewers write about when comparing the cars. They may not ever experience the difference between RWD and AWD, or ever use the power of a V8 over a V6, but when they see in an article that "The RL's V6 can't keep up with its competitor's V8s", they will take that as a knock against the RL, even if they end up buying a V6 model from a competitor.

Or they will ask the family "enthusiast" about the cars or make a quick visit to the forums of cars they plan on considering. Of course the enthusiast will be the first to recommend the most potent model over anything else, and then go through the list of the pros and cons of each model, but always being a little bit biased to the more performance oriented models. But he will probably mention that you *can* get a V8 and RWD with XXX models, where you can't with the RL. The potential buyer may not be looking for RWD or a V8, but it will still ring in his mind that the RL is now "lacking" in some way.

And if the enthusiast is informed with how well each of the model is doing, will also bring that up...and mentioning that the RL isn't selling well, so you can get a really really good deal, doesn't necessary make someone hurry up and want to buy one because the potential buyer is now asking "What's wrong with this car that it's not selling well?"

So in conclusion, to the average person, it may not matter directly, but indirectly it does matter because no one nowadays goes car shopping without trolling the internet and magazines or the "family enthusiast" for info first. The RL may be the PERFECT car for a Jon Q. public, but the opinions of magazines and enthusiasts and internet forums will more likely than not influence his final decision.

TampaRLX-SH

Yes and No.

The Legend was designed to be a Honda showcase car with global market tolerances. Acura had quite a bit of input into how to make the LEGEND appeal more to US flagship expectatons, however, much of that conflicted with other global markets. Primarily the engine. So what it came down to was content that was supposed to appeal to the US market and could be altered for other markets. But the primary engineering (styling, drivetrain, tranny) were compromised as to not require multiple foundations of the LEGEND.

That compromise was the achilles heel. By trying to appeal to all tastes, they found fewer buyers. This is the Honda paradox. The highest volume was anticipated to be RLs in North America. And it was not tailored enough to fit our flagship expectations (particularly for the lofty $50k+ pricepoint). Honda felt strongly that the V6 SHAWD platform would have broader appeal than it actually caught on. Secondly, Acura was very zealous that this gen RL would sell buckets over that last gen (It should sell better based on that comparision - but we have hammered that topic). The Acura sales projections set it up for immediate failure. It was arrogant of them to think the RL would redefine the flagship market.

But ultimately, modifying the ignition to offer US yahoo for 'keyless ignition & entry' and some other content features was just not strong enough to give the RL the fame Honda & Acura predicted. It is very basic but true that RWD V8 is the benchmark for US flagship appeal. After that baseline, it becomes a competition for content and styling. Honda tried to think above that benchmark, and apparently ther eare not many of us clever enough to appreciate it.

I still think the RL is a uniquely stellar vehicle. I love it more each day. But it is clear to me that the market the RL was set up to compete for was blatantly a mistake by Honda and Acura. In the niche of V6 AWD premium sedans, the RL stands high on the list. In the heated flagship market, the RL cannot stand out in the flock.

SpicyMikey

I have to agree with everything you just said. You're right. I just don't know how to quantify the effects of all that. Obviously you think this all adds up to a significant portion of the "missing" sales. You might be right but I'm still on the fence with that argument.

Maybe there is no one thing. Maybe thats why it's so hard to explain. Maybe it's just that perfect storm where all factors come together; lack of cachet for the brand at this price point, bad marketing, wrong mix of features, strong competion in this segment, etc.

TampaRLX-SH

I would agree that a significant portion of people who buy for image will be heavily swayed by press and public opinion (even marketing).

Concerning the press: I read it. But more often then not I have found it does not summize what I like. They may feel we all want to drive the best performing vehicle this side of Grand Prix de Monaco, but frankly I find that too punishing for my daily drive. Each time I am stirred by press, I find the car falls short of MY expectations. My TL was the last vehicle I will buy on press reviews (and it was replaced by the RL). The press has been fair to the RL is some manners, and typical in others (needs a V8, blah, blah, blah). I think if people drove vehicles without knowing the cylinder number, I wonder how many would choose based on the feel as opposed to the perception? If the press had its way, we'd all be driving MB or BMW...*yawn*.

Next time I buy a car based on what other's say I should drive, they can write out the check. It is wise to include opinions, but the decision is mine. I cannot say how many people told me I should buy a MB, or BMW. I drove them, considered them and bought what appealed to me....an Acura RL. I don't lose any sleep needing affirmation of my decision. My affirmation is the smile I have everyday getting out of my RL and thinking I could have missed owning this car. My smile widens when I hear associates bitchining about their BMW or MB while riding to lunch in my RL. *suckers!*

Treblig

Amen!

SpicyMikey

I'm like you buddy. But then again, I must be like you since I'm driving an RL

Question still stands (and is probably not answer-able), what percentage of the lux sedan buyers base their decision on mag reviews. I read them too. But I don't buy my car based on them. Maybe more do then we think. I don't know.

TampaRLX-SH

I think we are the minority. The proof is in the sales numbers of an otherwise stellar vehicle.

Think about it, the statements we read and hear are confirming the RL is impressive, but the caveat is the cylinders and gears (styling subjective - I like it!). You are less likely to hear the owner of an 8 cylinder market segment competitor confess 'well it has more torque, but I wish it also had AWD'.

AsianTL

+ 1.

My younger brother in law bought a 2006 BMW 325I and visited at dealer more often than mine. He likes my RL more than his car.