kenny5

Yes, as we all know, the RL competes with M35, G350, 5 series and E series, and is roughly the same size as these competitiors. IMO, if Acura wants to compete with the flagships of these prestigious nameplates, it needs to produce another car and name it XL, which may stand for, among other things, Extra Luxurious, Luscious, Lavish, Lamborginish... ... or simply Extra Large

jhr3uva90

XL is a great name! I hope Acura is reading this!

static808

You guys are right about the Lexus LS vs the BMW/Mercedes. The LS, although redesigned and looks pretty good is not in the same league. Also to start its $10K less than a BMW 750i, shows you something.

Regarding the RL, I just hope they pull a home-run on the FMC. They need a winner here like the TL was in 2004. The market is there, Acura could steal at least 500+ cars/month from BMW/Mercedes and about 1,000+ cars/month from Infiniti/Lexus in the Mid-Luxo category. That could be about 3K a month in sales....definitely possible. Only time will tell.

For now, I'll enjoy changing destinations on the fly in my RL's NAV while my work buddy can't in his new '07 Lexus LS. The wonders of Toyota and its safety features...

jhr3uva90

Personally, I think that Acura could make the perfect RL and it STILL wouldn't sell. Acura has become the Wal-Mart of luxury brands. People who buy Acuras want every gadget under the sun for a lower price than competitors. That is why the TL sold well. People were willing to give up little things (like RWD) to get goodies like a leather and a sunroof for cheap.

The problem is, the TRUE luxury market doesn't care about a bunch of standard features. They want prestige, and Acura is currently not providing that.

mrdeeno

here we go again...

why are you so focused on image and prestige being Acura's problem?

the lack of image and prestige is not Acura's problem, it is the SYMPTOM of Acura's problem.

the problem (of Honda's own doing) is not offering what the public and press has come to know as key ingredients in a midsize-luxury sedan: RWD and V8. Having RWD and a V8 doesn't instantly make a midsize-luxury sedan a top seller, but to the public, it IS a requirement.

Cake = midsize luxury sedan
icing = luxury goodies and creature comforts
flour = RWD/V8

You can bake a cake without the icing as long as you have the flour, but without the flour, no cake.

TLover8888

i guess the RL wont be getting the push button start anytime soon. This was pasted from a NY Times article:

Not everyone is quite ready to give up keys. Honda decided not to offer a push-button starter on its newest MDX model, sold by its Acura luxury division. The cost of installing sensors to operate the ignition, said its chief engineer, Frank Paluch, was more than Honda thought even well-heeled customers would be willing to pay.

its this type of short-sightedness that stops acura from competing with other luxury brands. The subject of the entire article was how push-button starters are making it into the luxury brands' lineups. Hell, even the nissan altima has it! I dont think Honda understands that its these little but luxurious features are what makes a car as well. If every other luxury brand has a push button starter, then doesnt it make the RL look cheaper if it lacks this??

TampaRLX-SH

I believe the push botton starter on the RL and the MDX may be two different situations.

The RL is a global vehicle, designed in Japan to be a Japanese flagship with (hopefully) global appeal to sell elsewhere. The MDX was designed built and currently distributed only for the North American market to compete in the hotly contested luxury SUV market (unique to North America, and high volume in the US).

Push Button starters are not accepted, or within regulation in all world markets. Hence the RL (truly the Honda LEGEND) was designed with a key start, and simply modified to be keyless for the gee whiz mentality of US / NA consumers.

Now the MDX, being a US / NA product, may have been the better model to introduce this feature. However push button starters are not yet the gee whiz feature that beackons consumers to SUVs...so why bother with it's introductory model year? It would be a nice feature to add in subsequent model years to up the ante as the model wears on.

Luxury is a very subjective thing to define. Add to the mix a strive for performance and technology and you have a recipe each person will taste differently. And having interacted with many people who can afford and demand 'luxury', I can attest many of them are fickle at minimum, and questionable in the IQ department (Do you need intelligence for wealth, or with wealth can you afford to be less intelligent?)

For each of the features the RL does not have, and gets carped on for not having, there seems to be an oversight for what the RL DOES have that the vehicle in comparison does NOT have. It may be a feature, a metric or even subjective value.

A vehicle is the sum of, I dunno, 10,000 parts? If every vehicle had all the features and attributes every person carped about, it would likely be a vehicle of 50,000 parts. And every vehicle on the road would be the same. Oh what a Brave New World we would enjoy. But then we'd have to find something else to carp about, wouldn't we?

mrdeeno

GS350 and M35 are sold in world markets and those have push-button keyless ignitions.


i agree. a keyless ignition system won't make or break the success of an SUV, unless all its competitors have one (which at this point, they do not...yet. The story is different for midsize luxury models, which is why the RL does have a keyless ignition system).

But isn't it ironic that Acura is trying to market itself as "tech" oriented lately, yet would not include technology that is currently available on lesser SUVs and cars (ie mitsubishi's SUV or the altima)?

Acura's job is not to sell the RL only to "smart" people shopping the midsize luxury market. Acura's job is to sell the RL to ANYONE shopping the midsize luxury market. We are talking about thinking and feeling human beings who buy for both logical reasons AND feelings...and to get someone to spend $50k is more dependent on FEELINGS than it is logical reasoning. The method/execution/marketing to successfully sell $35k TLs is COMPLETELY different from that of selling $50k RLs, yet Acura tried to use the same approach in both cases and this is why they failed with the RL.

I do not think luxury or prestige is as "subjective" as you think it is. There are factors that are expected in order for a luxury car to be well received. You can argue "subjectivity" all you want, but if the public expects a midsize luxury car to at least offer a V8 and RWD, regardless that V6 models sell more, then the automaker better be smart enough to offer a V8 and RWD. It's easier to invest, design and build a V8 and RWD platform than it is to change what hundreds of thousands of people perceive as "prestigious".

Toyota gets it; Nissan gets it; even Hyundai gets it...why doesn't Honda get it? Did they not get that memo or something?

TLover8888

neuronbob

We won't know for sure whether Honda gets it until the 3G RL comes out. As far as push button start, I don't care. The RL's keyless system saves me two steps in starting my car (pulling key out of pocket, placing key in ignition). It doesn't matter to me whether I am turning or pushing a button. It's all in the aesthtics, I guess.

What really galls me (and I'm a big Honda fan!) is that even lowly Hyundai is introducing a RWD, V8 midsize sedan. It's sure not to have the panache of even an Acura, but it's certainly a shot across the bow to Honda. It's too late to make the current RL RWD and with a V8--those things have to be designed from the start. Again, we'll see what happens with the 3G RL, if there is one.

A parting thought: I think that if Honda doesn't want to really compete in this segment, they should get out of the segment and concentrate on selling TLs and MDXs--premium sedans/SUVs as opposed to luxury cars. They are VERY successful at that and that's effectively what they're already doing as they totally ignore the RL. That's right--I said Acura shouldn't be a luxury car company, but a premium car company, if they can't figure out what luxury buyers expect.

ilas

Plus, why do the majority of reviewers and forum posters uphold the M as having great styling cues. My God it looks nothing more than an ultima/maxima that's been blown up by an air pump.

I cannot understand the accord/RL comments, nor can I figure out bashing of the RL for being as small as an accord and smaller seatroom than BMW/Mercedes. In fact, there is more seatroom than the 5 series.

The bottom line is, as others have suggested, that Acura has not tried very hard marketing this car. I think they figured out early on that the price was going to be a stretch for most of their core buyers, and as a result they decided not too sink too many advertising resources into it. My feeling from the local Acura dealer here is that they could really care less about the RL. At any time they have lots of TLs they are actively selling, but there are only a few requisite RLs on the lot.

TSXFL

The RL was an afterthought for Acura, much like the TSX. They just shined up existing models (Euro Accord and Legend) and figured they could ring up some sales in NA. They were right with the TSX but dead wrong with the RL.

I think we are going to see big changes in Acura in the next few years. With all of the talk of going upmarket, dropping the RSX, and launching in the Japanese home market, I think Honda/Acura will become more focused. As Acura becomes more of a world brand (like Lexus has become recently) rather than just Honda+, I think we will see better product and higher end product from Acura.

and they are definately serious about moving Acura onto the world stage. The last time I was in China I saw a huge new Acura dealership selling RLs/TLs and a few USDM TLs on the road. As recently as last year Lexus was the only Japanese luxury brand with any presence there, so this was a big development. The next few years should be interesting to see how they the new RL / TL and TSX models turn out.

kenny5

"The last time I was in China I saw a huge new Acura dealership selling RLs/TLs and a few USDM TLs on the road.:

I thought all TLs are made in the US and shipped to China with minor modifications. Has Honda opened up plants in China making TLs or other Acura cars?

TSXFL

All of the TLs are US made, and the RLs are obviously Japan made. I had never seen a single Acura in China before so I was a little surprised.

I believe Honda's China mfg cars are the Accord (with US sized body and a 2.4iVtec), the City and Jazz compacts, and maybe the Odyssey (different from the US market version). No Acura's are made in China, but I imagine they will be in the future, as BMW and Audi already have assemblies there. The Lexus models there are all imports, though Toyota makes the Crown in China which is similar to the Lexus ES.

I think Acura should do well in China as the RL and TL are far superior to the Audi A6 which is the current leader there. The China mfg A6 comes with a 1.8T engine standard!

Anyway, hopefully with the global launch of the Acura brand will result in Honda pouring more resources into Acura the way Toyota has into Lexus.

ilas

I hope Honda moves Acura upscale and goes for that part of the World market. Honda is definitely good enough to compete from a design and engineering perspective, they just have to want to do it. What we have seen with the RL/TSX is habitual conservatism on the part of Honda that has existed as long as I can remember. Honda has the technology to design BMW killers from their formula one involvement (they even have a small displacement v8 engine). The A spec suspension for the RL is proof. The guy who worked with Ayrton Senna designed it, and one drive with it will show anyone that the Honda suspension engineers know their stuff.

static808

It all comes down to effort and execution. The effort is there with the TL and MDX. As mentioned, the RL and TSX are Honda models in other markets.

I had one of my staff members over from Singapore and I had a loaner TSX and he said, nice Accord. He noticed the Acura nameplate and said it sounds upscale compared to Honda. Who nows...

We all know that is Hyundai getting serious, Nissan and Toyota getting real serious, its time for Honda to write a few checks.

I think by 2010, Acura will be have a awesome set of global cars with hopefully a V8, V10, RWD, FWD and SH-AWD throughout the line and a true flagship slotted above the RL. Still thinking what they would call the car above the RL?

jhr3uva90

Funny how European and Australian reviewers tend to like the RL's styling, while we Americans think it is too conservative. That might be one of the reasons why American cars have a hard time selling overseas.

Also, I think the A-spec should be standard on the RL, especially in Europe.

SpicyMikey

Is the A-spec package still available for '07's? I can't find it listed, itemized, or even mentioned anywhere on any Honda/Acura websites as an option anymore.

All the trim pieces are available for installation, but what about the upgraded suspension parts? Does Acura offer them for '07's?

jhr3uva90

I don't know. I'm starting to think of the 07 as being a downgrade from the 06.

neuronbob

The big Acura should be called....the SL?
The RL should be renamed Legend and slot between the TL and SL, and be the sport luxury car (as opposed to the TL, which is a sport "near luxury" car.

The 2007 RL is no different from the 2006 in the suspension. You should be able to find 2005-6 A-Spec parts on eBay, or you can call Tim at www.hondacuraworld.com , a site sponsor.

mrdeeno

i think you are missing the point.

The RL is very conservatively designed. so is the Accord. They may not be exactly alike, but they are very conservative (the RL actually resembles the last gen accord more).

As for the M, the styling is more bold. Same goes for the Maxima and Altima compared to the Accord.

And if the M looks like a Maxima or Altima blown up by an air pump, the M still looks good and not super conservative and the RL could only wish it was blown up with an air pump.

Mokos23

Honda is just stubborn we all know that or either blinded by cockiness or even if they don't put those features in their cars they think it will automatically sell. Honda is starting to remind me of Sony.

Sony decided to put blu-ray and put the price of the PS3 at $600 for the top of the line unit and $500 for their standard one. They thought with the success of the PS2 they could lure the same buyers with the PS3 and raise the price of it. Well, so far it has bombed and Nintendo and Microsoft are winning.

The same goes with Honda/Acura, they thought with their past success and perceived durability and longevity and features of their cars they could sell them now at a higher price because they're trying to move upmarket. But, so far the RL sales have bombed, the TL sales are now not as good as before, and the RDX sales aren't as good as they thought it would be.

Both Honda and Sony need to stop looking at their past success and put it in the past because the past is the past. At the present the Acura division and Sony with their PS3 both need a boost.

neuronbob

Actually, I think the M looks pretty good. I remember drooling over the styling when it was originally introduced in Japan as the Nissan Fuga. (I like the outrageous styling of the previous M--the Nissan Gloria--much better, though, but it had the same problem in the US as the RL--simply didn't catch on and was an afterthought for Infiniti. I often think of buying a used one just for the hell of it.)

Anyway, yes, the RL is conservatively styled, but owners like us can easily make mods to make it more sporty-looking. Further, compared to the REALLY boring 1G RL, it is relatively bold. I still don't think it resembles an Accord, but I guess others think it does.

static808

You are right mrdeeno regarding the Infiniti M series. It is blown up with and air pump. I don't like the design personally, but that's why I got an RL instead.

Infiniti did spend over $60million in advertising, which equates to about $1000 per car if they have sold 60,000 in the last 2 model years.

I don't think Acura/Honda is ready to commit that kind of money...yet.

Mokos23

Well don't feel bad because if you see my thread in the offtopic car talk section, my relatives, friends, and coworkers thought my TSX looks like a Civic even if it is the Euro/JDM Accord

Kaiserseal

I don't know if this is just in the Miami market, but here, Acura does not know how to give buyers the luxuary perception. The dealerships I have been to here are kind of ratty, no upscale furnishings, plastic chairs in the waiting room, and a coke machine. My local lexus dealer looks like a law office, there is a free espresso machine, marble floors, very upscale. The general attitude at Lexus is how can we kiss your butt today. Last week I brought in my RL and MDX for little things and the free 47 point inspection. The Trim on my 04 RL, now less than three years old started to rust, and I was told it was not under my warranty or extended because the car had over 50K miles. Customer service confirmed this is a not a free fix. Lexus would be so embarassed of rust on a new Florida car, I think they would have drugged me to forget about it while they did the repair. Acura here does not know how to push upscale cars to upscale clients. With two of the most expensive cars they make, I think of them more as Honda II instead of a different division.

The service I had from Lexus, even the little touches like washing my car before returning it, is missed. None of this makes a difference to the quality of the car, but at this price range, you just expect more, and Honda does not deliver.

mrdeeno

a more proper analogy should be comparing Honda/Acura with GM from the late 70's and 80's and even into 90's. They knew quality wise they could not compete with Hondas and Toyotas, but were cocky because they thought they could be successful just because they were "American".

Ironic though that a lot of GMs of the late 90's had opposite swinging windshield wipers (hinged on the outside edge on both sides) and since have moved away from that, yet Honda has started doing this with the Civic's windshield wipers. Also the Accords previous tailights (prior to the refresh) were very GM-ish...GM has also been stubborn with FWD also, and only recently started shifting to RWD (and I guess is "pausing" again). Remember all those 300hp FWD caddies? At least GM realized their mistake and is moving back to RWD with caddy.

sdacuraguy

I have to agree with the comments about lousy marketing from Acura...plus the less than stellar presentation of the company in Acura dealerships. They just do not have the panache of Lexus or Infiniti. Funny thing though when I see comparisons to the M. About 60%+ of M sales are in the 35, not the 45. Biggest advantage I see of the M is rear wheel drive plus a larger feeling interior and trunk. Still considering an RL though, as I think it looks truly elegant and does not look like an Accord. Does anyone know if that $3500 from the dealer still exists?

phins2rt

Until the end of the month, according to Edmunds. Good luck.

VOdoc

Agree that Acura marketing suxxx and that certain Acura dealers can look a bit downscale. Then again, the intelligent consumer should be able to see past the Lexus panache into the grossly overpriced Toyota lurking just beneath the fancy veneer. Acura is clearly a better value than either Lexus or Infiniti--but that only becomes relevant if, like me, you have a problem with wasting money.

Personally did not care for the looks of the M at all...looks like a bloated G to me. Consumer Reports loved it; I never really considered it.

According to Edmunds.com, the $3500 RL marketing support expires April 30. But don't be surprised if they renew and possibly even increase it. Good luck with your decision.

mrdeeno

Don't know about the $3500 from the dealer or not, but it is not uncommon to hear someone getting a fully loaded RL for $43k or less, regardless of dealer incentive (they just aren't moving off the lots).

Acura's argument concerning not needing a V8 is bunk. they say that V8 models would make up 20% or less of total sales, so it's not worth making one. But look what happens when you follow through on their "justification"...

Let's say 2000 M's are sold in a given month. If Acura's "justification" is correct that only 20% are V8 models, then 400 V8's are sold and 1600 V6's are sold.

Let's say 500 RL's are sold that month. 1600 V6 M's vs. 500 V6 RL's.

Now let's say that Acura's argument is even stronger, that even LESS V8 models are sold out of the total...let's say 5%, which would FURTHER strengthen their justification.

Of the same 2000 M's sold, 100 V8's and 1900 V6's.
Compared to the same 500 RL's, 1900 M's vs. 500 RL's.

See what is happening? The stronger Acura's justificatino for lack of V8, the worse it makes Acura look when comparing V6 to V6.

The M's strength isn't jsut its size or RWD, it's all these things and more. The M can say, "I have V6, V8, RWD, AWD, Sport model, Premium model, tech package, premium package, etc. etc. etc...I can compete across the board with anything BMW, Lexus, or MB can throw at me."

The RL, OTOH, can say, "I have V6 and AWD...I can compete with anything that BMW, Lexus, MB, or Infiniti can throw at me, as long as it's only got a V6 and AWD. ".

That's why the RL is not selling well...Acura continues to make compromises in what is expected in this class, and they continue to offer bogus justifications for these compromises...I bet the guys that decided on the final design over at Honda, who sat around scratching their heads wondering why the 1st gen RL didn't sell, are still sitting around scratching their heads and wondering why the 2nd gen RL isn't selling. Maybe these guys can use their "phone-a-friend" card and call up Hyundai.

mrdeeno

The GS is not built on any Toyota platform. Your statement rings more true to the RL, which is built on the SAME platform as the Accord, than it does for the Lexus, which is not built on any platform common to any other U.S. model.

Shouldn't intellingent customers see past the Acura panache into the grossly overpriced Honda, built on the same platform as Accord, lurking beneath the fancy veneer?

But then again, intelligent customers do look past the Lexus panache...then head over to the Infiniti dealership.

sdacuraguy

Anybody gets behind the wheel of a Toyota product vs a Honda product the first thing you will feel is lack of any weight or solid feel in the Toyota. When you pit Lexus vs Acura, the Lexus feels light and dreamy, the Acura feels solid and tight. Toyota products are built great too, but they go for that floaty and cushy feel where Honda goes for more road feel and control. Its a truly subjective choice. Drove a Lexus GS 350 and felt like an old man surrounded by feathers and cushions. Didn't like it and I'm gay, feathers and all! Drove an RL and felt luxury but a little edge. I like that. Only negative I feel ( as an owner of an '03 TL-S) is that the car could be just a touch bigger in the back seat and trunk. The design is truly classic, just as you expect from the Germans. Not too radical, but thick and bold and refined.

sdacuraguy

Forgot one thing...plain and simple. The absolute biggest blunder Honda/Acura ever made was dump the name Legend. It was perhaps the best moniker EVER given to an automobile. Much as I love and are just about ready to pull the trigger on an RL, I wonder if when Honda gave up the name Legend, they lost some of their performance soul! Back then Acura meant 'compete with Germans on performance', while Lexus meant 'take over the American cushy luxury'. OK, Vigor was a little off, but that car (pre TL) was a looker and far superior to the lucid ES. Okay I am done for now!

VOdoc

Many of us have posted similar sentiments. The alphanumeric just doesn't cut it. Duhhhhh...

Hope you're able to purchase and enjoy your 2007 LEGEND!

jhr3uva90

You mean it was as big a blunder as Caddy getting rid of the Seville and Deville and replacing them with the STS and DTS? And what about the venerable El Dorado?

GoHawks

I REALLY liked my '93 Vigor. Then again I was single at the time with no kids, so the extremely tight backseat with no leg room was not an issue. I'm 6ft tall, and when you would put the front seat all the way back, it was impossible for anyone to sit back there.

It truly was a great handling car for it's time, most likely due to the decent weight distribution for a FWD car due to the engine/tranny layout.

Aside from the horrible backseat space, people just couldn't warm up to the buzzy 5-cylinder. It was quirky, but I liked it.

I got many compliments on it. Drove it for over 100K miles.

TampaRLX-SH

Honda did not dump the LEGEND name. The RL is a rebadged Honda LEGEND. It was the Acura camp that dumped the LEGEND name for RL when they decided the Alpha Numerica names would make them sound more like Mercedes. I too agree the LEGEND name should be reinstated.

gavine

Infiniti? Like the G35 isn't an Altima and the M35 a Maxima? I parked next to a 2007 Altima yesterday and swore it was the new G35. I realize the Infinitis are RWD and the Nissans are FWD but the RL is AWD and Accord is FWD.

I didn't know the RL was based on the accord. I thought the TSX was an accord in Japan.

Can someone clarify?

mrdeeno

If you parked next to an Altima and thought it was a G35, then a trip to the optometrist may be in order





Accord US, Accord EU/JP, TSX, TL, and RL are all based on the same FWD platform. RL may have AWD, but it is still a FWD car that has AWD added.

Altima and Maxima are based on FF-L platform (front wheel drive).
Z, M, FX, and G are based on FM platform (RWD).

So no, the G is not an Altima and an M is not a Maxima...they are totally separate platforms.